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Re: [G104] Duplex drive Sherman

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  • Kurt Laughlin
    If you know the report numbers or other reference data you can submit a FOIA request to DTIS/NTIS or whomever and ask that it be declassified. (Form letters
    Message 1 of 16 , Aug 2, 2010
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      If you know the report numbers or other reference data you can submit a FOIA
      request to DTIS/NTIS or whomever and ask that it be declassified. (Form
      letters are on the web, in fact, part of the Act itself.) Otherwise, it
      probably never will be.

      KL

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Michael Canaday" <michael.canaday@...>

      >I found reports in the Defense Technical report archives and all were still
      > classified secret. I got one and there is not automatic downgrade, so it
      > is
      > still in the safe. I don't know if the archives reports to the public
      > what
      > their classified holdings are. They might be in the archives as well, but
      > it's possible they don't let anyone know they are there unless they have a
      > clearance.
    • Kurt Laughlin
      Anything accessible to the public in the first place is presumed to be unclassified, otherwise you couldn t even see it to ask.. The declassification you
      Message 2 of 16 , Aug 2, 2010
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        Anything accessible to the public in the first place is presumed to be
        unclassified, otherwise you couldn't even see it to ask.. The
        "declassification" you mention is simply to insure that copies are marked
        properly to leave the building, in other words, to make sure that you aren't
        taking out something that *still is classified* past the guards. (A
        different version of the requirement that the only paper that leaves is
        either stamped upon entry or is white tablet paper with a hole punched in
        it.)

        Mike is talking about the material that is *not* accessible to the public in
        the fist place.

        KL

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Ray Merriam

        If you're talking U.S. government archives, if a researcher finds something
        marked as "Secret" or whatever, you can get it declassified practically on
        the spot. We did that years ago in the National Archives when I was
        publishing a magazine (WW2 Journal/Military Journal). While apparently a lot
        of material has received a sort of "blanket" declassification, the
        individual items may not get the official stamp noting they are
        declassified, so you have to ask, but basically on material that old, I
        wouldn't even bother because if its found in an archives, no one gives a
        s--t any more if it is still "officially" classified.
      • Ray Merriam
        The declassification policies of the various government agencies are going to vary among themselves while the policies of archives, such as the National
        Message 3 of 16 , Aug 3, 2010
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          The declassification policies of the various government agencies are going
          to vary among themselves while the policies of archives, such as the
          National Archives, have a totally different methodology, because they are
          dealing with materials that have been transferred from various government
          agencies, who have already considered them to be of little or no value as
          far as intelligence matters are concerned, otherwise they would not
          generally release them to an archives where they would be more readily
          available (even if they did replace some restrictions on their availability
          to the public).

          Some of you may be aware of the historian, the late Chuck Hanson, who
          published a massive work on America's nuclear bomb program some years ago.
          He obtained all his information through readily available public sources,
          yet he was still investigated (and, as I recall, spent a great deal of time
          and money fighting a legal battle) because collecting all that together in
          one source scared the bejesus out of the government agencies. They were
          certain he must have used secret documents but he didn't. I corresponded
          with Chuck for a few years before this happened as he was working on a
          project about bomber aircraft turrets which he approached me as a possible
          publisher early in the research process.

          Ray


          --------------------------------------------------
          From: "Terry Warner" <terry.warner@...>
          Sent: Monday, 02 August 2010 10:06 AM
          To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: RE: [G104] Duplex drive Sherman

          > Throughout the working week about midmorning I get an automatic email from
          > the Federation of American Scientists called "Secrecy Blog". The editor
          > has
          > several recurring themes including US government declassification
          > policies.
          > There are multiple and overlapping security classifications with some of
          > the
          > most imponderable rationales. By itself, almost nothing on a single sheet
          > is likely to cause harm to the nation (whoever's country is involved), but
          > in total some of the most amazing stories can be assembled. DD Shermans
          > have long since passed into the annals of technical history, but nuclear
          > weapons development is still quite topical and possible.
          >
          >
          >
          > Terry
          >
          >
          >
          > From: G104@yahoogroups.com [mailto:G104@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray
          > Merriam
          > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2010 12:45 AM
          > To: G104@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [G104] Duplex drive Sherman
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > If you're talking U.S. government archives, if a researcher finds
          > something
          > marked as "Secret" or whatever, you can get it declassified practically on
          > the spot. We did that years ago in the National Archives when I was
          > publishing a magazine (WW2 Journal/Military Journal). While apparently a
          > lot
          >
          > of material has received a sort of "blanket" declassification, the
          > individual items may not get the official stamp noting they are
          > declassified, so you have to ask, but basically on material that old, I
          > wouldn't even bother because if its found in an archives, no one gives a
          > s--t any more if it is still "officially" classified.
          >
          > Ray
          >
          > --------------------------------------------------
          > From: "Michael Canaday" <michael.canaday@...
          > <mailto:michael.canaday%40gmail.com> >
          > Sent: Sunday, 01 August 2010 10:58 PM
          > To: <G104@yahoogroups.com <mailto:G104%40yahoogroups.com> >
          > Subject: Re: [G104] Duplex drive Sherman
          >
          >> I found reports in the Defense Technical report archives and all were
          >> still
          >> classified secret. I got one and there is not automatic downgrade, so it
          >> is
          >> still in the safe. I don't know if the archives reports to the public
          >> what
          >> their classified holdings are. They might be in the archives as well, but
          >> it's possible they don't let anyone know they are there unless they have
          >> a
          >> clearance.
          >>
          >> Mike Canaday
          >>
          >> On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 7:19 PM, Joe DeMarco <snick13@...
          > <mailto:snick13%40verizon.net> > wrote:
          >>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> >I wonder what security classification that film had back when it was
          >>> >part
          >>> of the war effort?
          >>>
          >>> The small number of documents I came across regarding the DD program had
          >>> "Secret" or "Top Secret" stamped on them. I was thinking that was why
          >>> there
          >>> were so few docs or pix in the Archives - they were destroyed. The
          >>> conversions were done behind screens, & the DDs were shipped completely
          >>> enclosed in plywood "houses." The program was also given the highest
          >>> materials priority classification, which was extremely rare for a tank
          >>> related project. That resulted in a very expedited program. Firestone
          >>> quickly obtained & assembled the necessary materials, & the prototype
          >>> was
          >>> completed & arrived at Ft Story Jan 24, 1944. The 348 production units
          >>> were
          >>> completed & in the UK by the end of April.
          >>>
          >>> As far as the film giving the enemy ideas about how to make a tank
          >>> float,
          >>> no doubt that was the reason for Top Secret, but in retrospect, the DD
          >>> program was an "EPIC FAIL" - a complete waste of lives & resources. A
          >>> researcher named Rich Anderson did a statistical analysis of the DD, &
          >>> IIRC,
          >>> he concluded the success rate was less than 10%.
          >>>
          >>> An article in a 1945 Cleveland Ordnance District Newsletter shows one
          >>> swimming in Barberton Reservoir which is located near Firestone in
          >>> Akron,
          >>> Ohio. That may be the location in the film. A short water floatation
          >>> trial
          >>> in a pit 15 feet deep & 25 to 50 feet long was part of the acceptance
          >>> process. I suspect that just that little test probably rendered each DD
          >>> a
          >>> little less seaworthy than it already was. An After Action Report
          >>> concluded..." That if circumstances make it necessary to include
          >>> tanks...in
          >>> the first wave...of the assualt, they have a far better chance of
          >>> reaching
          >>> the shore in safety if they are transported by landing craft, instead of
          >>> swimming in under their own power."
          >>>
          >>> Joe
          >>>
          >>>
          >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >>>
          >>>
          >>>
          >>
          >>
          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> ------------------------------------
          >>
          >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          >> **Please trim your replies**
          >> **Do not post in HTML or "Rich Text" mode**
          >> **Plain ASCII Text only please**
          >> **Attachments will be stripped**
          >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          >> Sherman Register
          >> http://www.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104
          >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          >> G104 - the Sherman Register mailing list
          >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/G104
          >> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          > **Please trim your replies**
          > **Do not post in HTML or "Rich Text" mode**
          > **Plain ASCII Text only please**
          > **Attachments will be stripped**
          > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          > Sherman Register
          > http://www.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104
          > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          > G104 - the Sherman Register mailing list
          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/G104
          > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
          > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
        • Ray Merriam
          I ve purchased copies of documents from NTIS at their web site. Ray ... From: Kurt Laughlin Sent: Monday, 02 August 2010 8:17 PM To:
          Message 4 of 16 , Aug 3, 2010
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            I've purchased copies of documents from NTIS at their web site.

            Ray


            --------------------------------------------------
            From: "Kurt Laughlin" <fleeta@...>
            Sent: Monday, 02 August 2010 8:17 PM
            To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: Re: [G104] Duplex drive Sherman

            > If you know the report numbers or other reference data you can submit a
            > FOIA
            > request to DTIS/NTIS or whomever and ask that it be declassified. (Form
            > letters are on the web, in fact, part of the Act itself.) Otherwise, it
            > probably never will be.
            >
            > KL
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Michael Canaday" <michael.canaday@...>
            >
            >>I found reports in the Defense Technical report archives and all were
            >>still
            >> classified secret. I got one and there is not automatic downgrade, so it
            >> is
            >> still in the safe. I don't know if the archives reports to the public
            >> what
            >> their classified holdings are. They might be in the archives as well, but
            >> it's possible they don't let anyone know they are there unless they have
            >> a
            >> clearance.
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            > **Please trim your replies**
            > **Do not post in HTML or "Rich Text" mode**
            > **Plain ASCII Text only please**
            > **Attachments will be stripped**
            > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            > Sherman Register
            > http://www.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104
            > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            > G104 - the Sherman Register mailing list
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/G104
            > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
          • Ray Merriam
            You ll never get the originals out of the archives--unless you steal them and that has been done over the years by visitors as well as employees and tens of
            Message 5 of 16 , Aug 3, 2010
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              You'll never get the originals out of the archives--unless you steal them
              and that has been done over the years by visitors as well as employees and
              tens of thousands if not millions of documents, photos, etc, have "walked
              off" that way. Back when I was publishing the magazine, I was doing an
              article on the F4U Corsair fighter and asked the National Archives about
              photos. They informed me that they had received, some years before, a
              notebook filled with photos, mainly of the prototype, including many close
              up detail and interior shots. But most had been "lifted" by someone and only
              a handful remained in the notebook and these were just generic flying shots.

              Sometimes only the copies will get stamped. One of my partners in the
              magazine got some pages from a wartime report and sent them to me. They had
              the declassification stamp on them. A few years later I ordered a copy of
              the entire report and it was again stamped with a different declassification
              date, so the original never was stamped, only the copies.

              I suspect some of us are talking about two different things. Apparently some
              here are talking about government agencies while others, including myself,
              are specifically talking about archives, who are a totally different animal
              even if they are a part of the Federal government. The way the deal with
              classified materials is different than the agencies that originally created
              the materials.

              Ray


              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "Kurt Laughlin" <fleeta@...>
              Sent: Monday, 02 August 2010 8:26 PM
              To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: Re: [G104] Duplex drive Sherman

              > Anything accessible to the public in the first place is presumed to be
              > unclassified, otherwise you couldn't even see it to ask.. The
              > "declassification" you mention is simply to insure that copies are marked
              > properly to leave the building, in other words, to make sure that you
              > aren't
              > taking out something that *still is classified* past the guards. (A
              > different version of the requirement that the only paper that leaves is
              > either stamped upon entry or is white tablet paper with a hole punched in
              > it.)
              >
              > Mike is talking about the material that is *not* accessible to the public
              > in
              > the fist place.
              >
              > KL
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Ray Merriam
              >
              > If you're talking U.S. government archives, if a researcher finds
              > something
              > marked as "Secret" or whatever, you can get it declassified practically on
              > the spot. We did that years ago in the National Archives when I was
              > publishing a magazine (WW2 Journal/Military Journal). While apparently a
              > lot
              > of material has received a sort of "blanket" declassification, the
              > individual items may not get the official stamp noting they are
              > declassified, so you have to ask, but basically on material that old, I
              > wouldn't even bother because if its found in an archives, no one gives a
              > s--t any more if it is still "officially" classified.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              > **Please trim your replies**
              > **Do not post in HTML or "Rich Text" mode**
              > **Plain ASCII Text only please**
              > **Attachments will be stripped**
              > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              > Sherman Register
              > http://www.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104
              > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              > G104 - the Sherman Register mailing list
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/G104
              > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
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