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Re: M4A1(76) Sherman at Aberdeen Proving Ground

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  • Neil Baumgardner
    ... The Staff ... like an ... I hope an M60! The museum has several of those, but only one Abrams I am aware of - an LRIP XM1... ... The staff ... details ...
    Message 1 of 11 , Feb 9, 2006
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      --- In G104@yahoogroups.com, Bob Smart <bsmart@...> wrote:
      > >>will be going through the Ordnance Museum's refurb facility
      > >>before going elsewhere.
      > >
      > >Did the Museum people at APG say where it came from?
      > >(It had a shipping ticket from Manheim Germany.)
      > >Or where it might be going?
      > >They don't have an M4A1(76) in their inventory, & I was
      > >selfishly hoping they might keep it, so there would be one
      > >nearby to study.
      >
      > Right now it is scheduled to go to Valley Forge Military Academy.
      The Staff
      > at Aberdeen would like to change that. I suggested that something
      like an
      > M-60 or an Early M-1 get offered to Valley Forge

      I hope an M60! The museum has several of those, but only one Abrams I
      am aware of - an LRIP XM1...

      > >>The painted on RN (which may be original) is 30126806.
      > >
      > >Did the tour guide permit you to climb on or get inside?
      >
      > I was the Tour Guide :-)
      >
      > No since it was a group tour. I'm sure we could arrange something
      The staff
      > is pretty reasonable. I'd be glad to meet you there and work out
      details
      > with the Staff. I'll even bring the ladder.

      Actually I took the pics before I joined the tour ;) But I generally
      dont try climbing inside anything...

      Neil
    • Bob Smart
      ... Actually I didn t figure it would come out of APGs museum but from tanks in storage probably at Anniston. I figure there are a bunch of early production
      Message 2 of 11 , Feb 9, 2006
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        At 01:40 PM 2/9/2006 -0000, you wrote:
        >--- In G104@yahoogroups.com, Bob Smart <bsmart@...> wrote:
        >> >>will be going through the Ordnance Museum's refurb facility
        >> >>before going elsewhere.
        >> >
        >> >Did the Museum people at APG say where it came from?
        >> >(It had a shipping ticket from Manheim Germany.)
        >> >Or where it might be going?
        >> >They don't have an M4A1(76) in their inventory, & I was
        >> >selfishly hoping they might keep it, so there would be one
        >> >nearby to study.
        >>
        >> Right now it is scheduled to go to Valley Forge Military Academy.
        >The Staff
        >> at Aberdeen would like to change that. I suggested that something
        >like an
        >> M-60 or an Early M-1 get offered to Valley Forge
        >
        >I hope an M60! The museum has several of those, but only one Abrams I
        >am aware of - an LRIP XM1...
        >

        Actually I didn't figure it would come out of APGs museum but from tanks in
        storage probably at Anniston. I figure there are a bunch of early
        production (105mm) M-1s sitting around. There may be more of them then
        there are M-60s since they have been using M-60s for reefs.

        Bob Smart (bsmart@...)
      • Joe DeMarco
        ... Yes, there are a lot of surviving tanks named in honor of other tanks that were featured in historic photos & so forth. There are quite a few Shermans
        Message 3 of 11 , Feb 11, 2006
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          >There was a "Niederbronn" with the Free French 4e squadron, 1st
          >Cuirassiers. This could either be that original tank, or could be a
          >later tank given the same name. (I have noticed several tanks that
          > have been repainted this way in France - that dont match up
          >modelwise with the original).

          Yes, there are a lot of surviving tanks named in honor of other tanks
          that were featured in historic photos & so forth. There are quite a few
          Shermans named "Thunderbolt," for instance. There's a very nice photo
          of Gen. Abrams standing in front of one in Germany in the 1960s -
          an M4A1(76)HVSS. Anyone know where that tank is now? Vilseck?

          I think the APG M4A1(76) most likely has retained its original USA
          registration number, as well as its original French ID number.
          The R/N, at least, could be mathematically confirmed by the serial
          number, if the dataplate is still inside. If it is indeed USA 30126806,
          it would have been built in May, 1945, too late to have served in
          combat in WW II.

          >Right now it is scheduled to go to Valley Forge Military Academy.
          >The Staff at Aberdeen would like to change that.

          Hope they can work something out, but, if not, that would be a good
          home for it.
          It looks like someone has selectively stripped various layers of paint
          to reveal all those different markings. It's good we had a shot at
          recording all that "documentation" before the refurb shop blasts it
          down to bare metal.

          >I'd be glad to meet you there and work out details
          >with the Staff. I'll even bring the ladder.

          That would be great, Bob. I'll contact you direct.

          Do you know what became of the refurbed M32A1B3 that was on
          display at the golf course, but removed last summer?
          Anything new Sherman-wise coming out from the restricted area,
          or being brought in from elsewhere?

          Joe
        • Bob Smart
          ... Pop me an e-mail and we can arrange things. I live in Middletown, MD so I try to make it an allday trip when I get up there. ... It is in storage (I think
          Message 4 of 11 , Feb 11, 2006
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            At 08:36 AM 2/11/2006 -0500, you wrote:
            >
            >>There was a "Niederbronn" with the Free French 4e squadron, 1st
            >>Cuirassiers. This could either be that original tank, or could be a
            >>later tank given the same name. (I have noticed several tanks that
            >> have been repainted this way in France - that dont match up
            >>modelwise with the original).
            >
            >Yes, there are a lot of surviving tanks named in honor of other tanks
            >that were featured in historic photos & so forth. There are quite a few
            >Shermans named "Thunderbolt," for instance. There's a very nice photo
            >of Gen. Abrams standing in front of one in Germany in the 1960s -
            >an M4A1(76)HVSS. Anyone know where that tank is now? Vilseck?
            >
            >I think the APG M4A1(76) most likely has retained its original USA
            >registration number, as well as its original French ID number.
            >The R/N, at least, could be mathematically confirmed by the serial
            >number, if the dataplate is still inside. If it is indeed USA 30126806,
            >it would have been built in May, 1945, too late to have served in
            >combat in WW II.
            >
            >>Right now it is scheduled to go to Valley Forge Military Academy.
            >>The Staff at Aberdeen would like to change that.
            >
            >Hope they can work something out, but, if not, that would be a good
            >home for it.
            >It looks like someone has selectively stripped various layers of paint
            >to reveal all those different markings. It's good we had a shot at
            >recording all that "documentation" before the refurb shop blasts it
            >down to bare metal.
            >
            >>I'd be glad to meet you there and work out details
            >>with the Staff. I'll even bring the ladder.
            >
            >That would be great, Bob. I'll contact you direct.
            >

            Pop me an e-mail and we can arrange things. I live in Middletown, MD so I
            try to make it an allday trip when I get up there.

            >Do you know what became of the refurbed M32A1B3 that was on
            >display at the golf course, but removed last summer?

            It is in storage (I think near the warehouse where the T-34 and Christie
            are.)
            I don't remember whether it was the M4A4 with early HVSS or the M10 that
            took it's place.

            >Anything new Sherman-wise coming out from the restricted area,
            >or being brought in from elsewhere?

            I think the batch that came out last year (2 T23s, the M1919 Cunningham,
            and at least one other that slips my mind) came out due to a cleanup of one
            area back there. I know there are more things back there The T92 SP gun
            'King Kong' is back there partially taken apart.

            Ther eis a Sherman that was at Picatinney that is supposed to come to
            Aberdeen The rest of the collection from there ( a lot of projectiles and
            other stuff) came a couple years ago. I'll check on the tanks status.

            Things are sort of in a state of flux because of BRAC. The musuem is
            supposed tomove to Ft Lee when the School moves down there.
            >
          • Joe DeMarco
            Hi Bob & Neil, It was a pleasure to meet you gents at APG. A closer look at the M4A1 revealed the serial number stamped into the glacis inside a rectangle.
            Message 5 of 11 , Mar 12, 2006
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              Hi Bob & Neil,

              It was a pleasure to meet you gents at APG.
              A closer look at the M4A1 revealed the serial number
              stamped into the glacis inside a rectangle.
              From a research standpoint, it would be very helpful if
              Pressed Steel Car had put the serial number there, or
              anywhere else on the exterior of their Shermans, but nooo.
              The S/N inside a rectangle appears on a number of tanks
              the French built & rebuilt. So MERCI for that. :-)
              In any case, 68827 IS an exact mathematical match to
              the USA Reg. Number that's painted on there - 30126806.
              As mentioned earlier, that would have been built in May,
              1945, too late to have served in combat in WW II.

              The French rebuild plate is real rusty & hard to read; it's
              something like:

              EPGMEB GIEM
              VU LE
              NE de CEF 08 52 1140

              Neil, I think you mentioned that you thought it came from Bad Kissengen.
              Indeed, there was an M4A1(76)HVSS on display in front of Squadron
              HQs, Daley Barracks. They say it arrived sometime in the 1960s.
              In the early 1990s the Sherman was "sent to the 21st Replacement
              Company at Rhein Main AFB." "Late in the Summer of 2003, a business
              trip took Randy Mitchell back to Germany where he had the chance to
              visit ..the Depot at Rhine Main. Looking just a bit forlorn, in need of
              fresh paint and some preventive maintenance, he found the...tank that
              once stood at Daley. For those troopers who may have sons or
              daughters pass through that area ready for their own European
              adventures, tell them to take a second to pause by the display vehicles.
              They silently have a lot of stories to tell."

              This is from a 2/11 Cav. webpage article "Find that Tank."

              http://www.eaglehorse.org/3_home_station/tank/tank.htm

              The odyssey of this Sherman continues.
              Maybe Randy Mitchell & some of the other guys would like an update?
              I'm sure it's the APG, # 68827. According to Bob, it will be refurbed
              & probably sent to the Valley Forge Military Academy (near Philly)
              for display.

              I got a feeling of deja vue when I saw the casting marks on the turret:

              7054366
              OSF SER 84

              Years ago, someone sent some pix of an M4A1(76) with the same
              OSF turret #84. He couldn't recall where he saw it, but comparing the
              backgrounds of his pix & the ones on the webpage, I can now tell his
              shots were taken at Rhein Main AFB.
              A friend was making some Sherman 76mm turrets, & for a very late
              one with canvas mantlet cover, wanted some unusual casting marks.
              I suggested he use OSF # 84, since it is the only OSF 76mm turret I've
              ever seen. So that's where the CMD turret with canvas got its markings.

              This photo is small, but ...
              http://www.eaglehorse.org/3_home_station/tank/Find5a.jpg

              you can see the same step more commonly found on M10s, as well as
              the odd handle attached to the top middle of the diff. housing, which it
              still has.

              http://www.com-central.net/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=2698

              Anyway, thanks Bob for helping me get the "climb on" arrest free.
              We couldn't have asked for nicer weather.

              Joe


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Bob Smart" <bsmart@...>
              To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 2:28 PM
              Subject: Re: [G104] M4A1(76) Sherman at Aberdeen Proving Ground


              > At 08:36 AM 2/11/2006 -0500, you wrote:
              >>
              >>>There was a "Niederbronn" with the Free French 4e squadron, 1st
              >>>Cuirassiers. This could either be that original tank, or could be a
              >>>later tank given the same name. (I have noticed several tanks that
              >>> have been repainted this way in France - that dont match up
              >>>modelwise with the original).
              >>
              >>Yes, there are a lot of surviving tanks named in honor of other tanks
              >>that were featured in historic photos & so forth. There are quite a few
              >>Shermans named "Thunderbolt," for instance. There's a very nice photo
              >>of Gen. Abrams standing in front of one in Germany in the 1960s -
              >>an M4A1(76)HVSS. Anyone know where that tank is now? Vilseck?
              >>
              >>I think the APG M4A1(76) most likely has retained its original USA
              >>registration number, as well as its original French ID number.
              >>The R/N, at least, could be mathematically confirmed by the serial
              >>number, if the dataplate is still inside. If it is indeed USA 30126806,
              >>it would have been built in May, 1945, too late to have served in
              >>combat in WW II.
              >>
              >>>Right now it is scheduled to go to Valley Forge Military Academy.
              >>>The Staff at Aberdeen would like to change that.
              >>
              >>Hope they can work something out, but, if not, that would be a good
              >>home for it.
              >>It looks like someone has selectively stripped various layers of paint
              >>to reveal all those different markings. It's good we had a shot at
              >>recording all that "documentation" before the refurb shop blasts it
              >>down to bare metal.
              >>
              >>>I'd be glad to meet you there and work out details
              >>>with the Staff. I'll even bring the ladder.
            • shawn ferguson
              Joe - Now that you mention it, I remember that M4A1E8 first when I sat at Rhein Main for a 8 hr layover enroute to the Gulf. And again when I reported to
              Message 6 of 11 , Mar 12, 2006
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                Joe -
                Now that you mention it, I remember that M4A1E8 first when I sat at Rhein
                Main for a 8 hr layover enroute to the Gulf. And again when I reported to
                Germany for my tour in the LRSU company there in Darmstadt.
                Now you need to find the details of the M4A3 in Schweinfurt that had one
                applique plate on the right front side. I want to say it was a 76mm but it
                may have been a 75mm gun tank. That was nearly 14 years ago. And I was only
                there for the weekend.
                Still thanks for the flashback.
                - Shawn
              • Joe DeMarco
                Hi Shawn ... Yeah, I d like to see some good photos of that. I try to keep a little record of this stuff when folks bring it up. A few years back an Army
                Message 7 of 11 , Mar 13, 2006
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                  Hi Shawn

                  >Now you need to find the details of the M4A3 in Schweinfurt that
                  >had one applique plate on the right front side.

                  Yeah, I'd like to see some good photos of that.
                  I try to keep a little record of this stuff when folks bring it up.
                  A few years back an Army chaplain named Keith Goode
                  went around & looked at a number of Shermans at various bases
                  in Germany. He posted some small pix in the G104 Files section.
                  He only got a partial read of the Schweinfurt serial number - 4875_.
                  Assuming that's accurate, that would have been built as an M4A3(75)W.
                  I have two listings in that range:

                  48756 3081353 M4A3(75)W Program for Mounting 17lbr In American
                  M4 & M4A3, 3/45

                  48757 3081354 M4A3(75)W Casualty, 11th TB, 10th AD, 12/28/44

                  With the patch, I suppose there might be a small possibility it could be
                  the 11th Tank Bn. casualty...

                  Joe

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "shawn ferguson" <shawnferguson@...>
                  To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, March 12, 2006 11:34 AM
                  Subject: RE: [G104] M4A1(76) Sherman at Aberdeen Proving Ground


                  > Joe -
                  > Now that you mention it, I remember that M4A1E8 first when I sat at Rhein
                  > Main for a 8 hr layover enroute to the Gulf. And again when I reported to
                  > Germany for my tour in the LRSU company there in Darmstadt.
                  > Now you need to find the details of the M4A3 in Schweinfurt that had one
                  > applique plate on the right front side. I want to say it was a 76mm but it
                  > may have been a 75mm gun tank. That was nearly 14 years ago. And I was
                  > only
                  > there for the weekend.
                  > Still thanks for the flashback.
                  > - Shawn
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