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Re: M4A1 big hatch in british use? (75 mm gun?)

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  • ceolredmonger
    To back up Peter Brown s comments, I know the photo holdings of a number of British regimental museums and have yet to see any showing 75mm (or for that matter
    Message 1 of 19 , Jan 5, 2005
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      To back up Peter Brown's comments,

      I know the photo holdings of a number of British regimental museums
      and have yet to see any showing 75mm (or for that matter 17pdr)
      armed British big hatch Shermans other than a few of DD variants.

      My experience has shown careful examination of any photo apparently
      of a British M4A1 with big hatches proves to be an M4 Hybrid.

      The British seem not to have favoured the 105mm variants for close
      support so although they have designations for them (I don't know
      about availability) they don't appear in photos either.

      Keith
    • Paul Roberts
      ... Which is interesting because the Canadians in Italy definitely used M4 105s in their regimental HQ Sqdns. Paul Roberts President Armor Modeling and
      Message 2 of 19 , Jan 5, 2005
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        ceolredmonger wrote:

        >The British seem not to have favoured the 105mm variants for close
        >support so although they have designations for them (I don't know
        >about availability) they don't appear in photos either.
        >
        >
        Which is interesting because the Canadians in Italy definitely used M4
        105s in their regimental HQ Sqdns.

        Paul Roberts
        President
        Armor Modeling and Preservation Society
      • pfarr karl-heinz
        Thanks to all Greatfull help! KH ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - now with 250MB free storage. Learn more.
        Message 3 of 19 , Jan 5, 2005
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          Thanks to all
          Greatfull help!
          KH
          --- Paul Roberts <tankmodeler@...> wrote:

          > ceolredmonger wrote:
          >
          > >The British seem not to have favoured the 105mm
          > variants for close
          > >support so although they have designations for them
          > (I don't know
          > >about availability) they don't appear in photos
          > either.
          > >
          > >
          > Which is interesting because the Canadians in Italy
          > definitely used M4
          > 105s in their regimental HQ Sqdns.
          >
          > Paul Roberts
          > President
          > Armor Modeling and Preservation Society
          >
          >
          >




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        • ceolredmonger
          I agree, it is interesting the British did not make use of the Sherman 105mm b . British doctrine enshrined in the organisation tables still included HE
          Message 4 of 19 , Jan 5, 2005
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            I agree, it is interesting the British did not make use of the
            Sherman 105mm 'b'.

            British 'doctrine' enshrined in the organisation tables still
            included HE firing close support (CS) tanks at Squadron HQ level.
            Whilst this manifests itself in the 95mm Howitzer variants of the
            Churchill and Cromwell the equivalent in Sherman equipped units was
            meant to be the 105mm variant hence the designated 'b' suffix for
            the weapon type. They were not, with exceptions in Italy - I can't
            be dogmatic on this - generally bothered with. I don't know why.

            Earlier CS gun/howitzers were 3" (supporting 47mm 2pdr Anti-tank
            guns) so would have roughly the explosive power of the 75mm Sherman
            round. If though the 75mm HE rounds did the job for Sherman units,
            why not Churchill or Cromwell units?

            It would have made perfect sense to utilise the Sherman 105's in
            this role. Other than the need to keep anti-tank capability, an
            objection I can think of would be ammunition supply. At the time
            they were coming in to use the M7 SP Howitzer was being phased out
            of British and Commonwealth service for the Sexton SP 25pdr.

            Another probability is that Britain just wanted gun tanks for
            conversion to Fireflys. I assume the 105mm Shermans used in Italy,
            like the 76mm variants, will have gone direct to the Mediterranian
            theater and not have passed through the UK. A completely different
            issue and supply situation.

            It is not suprising Canadian Regiments in Italy found a use for the
            105mm Sherman. The suprise is why other British and Commonwealth
            units did not.


            Keith


            --- In G104@yahoogroups.com, Paul Roberts <tankmodeler@r...> wrote:
            > ceolredmonger wrote:
            >
            > >The British seem not to have favoured the 105mm variants for
            close
            > >support so although they have designations for them (I don't know
            > >about availability) they don't appear in photos either.
            > >
            > >
            > Which is interesting because the Canadians in Italy definitely
            used M4
            > 105s in their regimental HQ Sqdns.
            >
            > Paul Roberts
            > President
            > Armor Modeling and Preservation Society
          • Peter Brown
            There were some Sherman Ib in Italy, though how many I do not know. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 19 , Jan 5, 2005
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              There were some Sherman Ib in Italy, though how many I do not know.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Paul Roberts
              ... Just so...
              Message 6 of 19 , Jan 5, 2005
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                ceolredmonger wrote:

                >It is not suprising Canadian Regiments in Italy found a use for the
                >105mm Sherman. The suprise is why other British and Commonwealth
                >units did not.
                >
                Just so...
              • Jim Webster
                ... The 9th Lancers in Italy used them very effectively. There were a couple of images of them in action hanging on the Corporals Mess walls back in the 80s.
                Message 7 of 19 , Jan 6, 2005
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                  Paul Roberts wrote:

                  > ceolredmonger wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >>It is not suprising Canadian Regiments in Italy found a use for the
                  >>105mm Sherman. The suprise is why other British and Commonwealth
                  >>units did not.
                  >>
                  >
                  > Just so...

                  The 9th Lancers in Italy used them very effectively. There were a couple
                  of images of them in action hanging on the Corporals Mess walls back in
                  the 80s.


                  --
                  TTFN
                  Jim
                  ICQ: 58721472
                  ***********************
                  http://www.jedsite.info
                  JED Military Equipment
                  ***********************
                • peter.brown87@tesco.net
                  Queen s Bays also had them in Italy [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jan 6, 2005
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                    Queen's Bays also had them in Italy


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • ceolredmonger
                    This is useful stuff. Do any of you have dates and numbers? Keith
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jan 6, 2005
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                      This is useful stuff. Do any of you have dates and numbers?

                      Keith




                      --- In G104@yahoogroups.com, <peter.brown87@t...> wrote:
                      > Queen's Bays also had them in Italy
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Peter Brown
                      Figures for Sherman 105mm from from Half Yearly Reports on the Progress of the Royal Armoured Corps - AFV Situation 15 Army Group 30 December 1944 Canadian 5
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jan 6, 2005
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                        Figures for Sherman 105mm from from "Half Yearly Reports on the Progress of the Royal Armoured Corps" -

                        AFV Situation 15 Army Group 30 December 1944

                        Canadian 5 Armoured Division - 18

                        British 6 Armoured Division - 12

                        South African 6 Armoured Division - 18

                        British 2 Armoured Brigade - 18

                        Canadian 1 Armoured Brigade - 12

                        British 7 Armoured Brigade - 18

                        British 9 Armoured Brigade - 4

                        Replenishment Group - 46

                        AFV Situation 15 Army Group 25 June 1945

                        British 6 Armoured Division - 6

                        South African 6 Armoured Division - 27

                        British 2 Armoured Brigade - 27

                        Polish 2 Armoured Brigade - 18

                        New Zealand 4 Armoured Brigade - 18

                        British 7 Armoured Brigade - 12

                        British 9 Armoured Brigade - 4

                        Replenishment Group - 46

                        14/20 Hussars, 4 Hussars, 7 Hussars - 16

                        Tank Replacement Group - 57

                        Training - 8

                        British 23 Armoured Brigade in Greece - 2


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • ceolredmonger
                        Thanks Peter, As ever, you are a star - quality research well presented. Whatever happened to the tried and tested unsubstantiated rumour? December 44 is
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jan 7, 2005
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                          Thanks Peter,

                          As ever, you are a star - quality research well presented. Whatever
                          happened to the tried and tested unsubstantiated rumour?

                          December '44 is earlier than I thought for this amount - the picture
                          is getting clearer. The 'Close Support' tank concept seems to have
                          been alive and well in Italy. Could the need for effective smoke be
                          a reason?

                          Pity I don't have any Italian theater Sherman tank regiment's
                          Archives/Museums in my 'patch'.

                          Keep up the good work!

                          Keith Matthews
                          Curator of Military History
                          York Museums Trust
                          UK

                          --- In G104@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Brown" <peter.brown87@t...>
                          wrote:
                          > Figures for Sherman 105mm from from "Half Yearly Reports on the
                          Progress of the Royal Armoured Corps" -
                          >
                          > AFV Situation 15 Army Group 30 December 1944
                          >
                          > Canadian 5 Armoured Division - 18
                          >
                          > British 6 Armoured Division - 12
                          >
                          > South African 6 Armoured Division - 18
                          >
                          > British 2 Armoured Brigade - 18
                          >
                          > Canadian 1 Armoured Brigade - 12
                          >
                          > British 7 Armoured Brigade - 18
                          >
                          > British 9 Armoured Brigade - 4
                          >
                          > Replenishment Group - 46
                          >
                          > AFV Situation 15 Army Group 25 June 1945
                          >
                          > British 6 Armoured Division - 6
                          >
                          > South African 6 Armoured Division - 27
                          >
                          > British 2 Armoured Brigade - 27
                          >
                          > Polish 2 Armoured Brigade - 18
                          >
                          > New Zealand 4 Armoured Brigade - 18
                          >
                          > British 7 Armoured Brigade - 12
                          >
                          > British 9 Armoured Brigade - 4
                          >
                          > Replenishment Group - 46
                          >
                          > 14/20 Hussars, 4 Hussars, 7 Hussars - 16
                          >
                          > Tank Replacement Group - 57
                          >
                          > Training - 8
                          >
                          > British 23 Armoured Brigade in Greece - 2
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • peter.brown87@tesco.net
                          Details I posted came from the copies at the Tank Museum, there are also copies at the Public Record Office/National Archives in Kew [Non-text portions of this
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jan 7, 2005
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                            Details I posted came from the copies at the Tank Museum, there are also copies at the Public Record Office/National Archives in Kew


                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Len Heidebrecht
                            Checking my copy of the GGHG War Diaries, re-organization from Armd Recce Regt to Armoured Regt took place in Mar 45 in Iseghem. 33 Sherman Vs were sent from
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jan 7, 2005
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                              Checking my copy of the GGHG War Diaries, re-organization from Armd
                              Recce Regt to Armoured Regt took place in Mar '45 in Iseghem. 33
                              Sherman Vs were sent from 5 Cdn Armd Brigade for this change, 2 X
                              105s per Sqn HQ and 2 X 76s per troop. The 105s and 76s were often
                              detatched and sited in for indirect shoots after that time.
                              Cheers,
                              Len
                              --- In G104@yahoogroups.com, "ceolredmonger" <keith.matthews@y...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Pity I don't have any Italian theater Sherman tank regiment's
                              > Archives/Museums in my 'patch'.
                              > --- In G104@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Brown" <peter.brown87@t...>
                              > wrote:
                              > > Figures for Sherman 105mm from from "Half Yearly Reports on the
                              > Progress of the Royal Armoured Corps" -
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Canadian 5 Armoured Division - 18
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