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Toronto Monument

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  • khall@wayward.co.uk
    When I was a kid, I remember playing down at the waterfront near Exhibition Park, on a WWII monument that included a lancaster (FM 104, I belIeve), a bofors (I
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 10, 2000
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      When I was a kid, I remember playing down at the waterfront near
      Exhibition Park, on a WWII monument that included a lancaster (FM
      104, I belIeve), a bofors (I think? - some sort of AA piece) and a
      Sherman tank.

      I don't rememeber a lot about it, because I was just a kid then.

      Does anyone know this tank? What variant was it? Does anyone know
      what its operational history was?

      Ah, nostalgia, eh?

      Thanks for any help!

      Ken.
    • Chuck Rothman
      It was an M4A2(76) HVSS. It s operational history was that it was purchased from the US in 1947, used for training for about 10 years, and they retired at the
      Message 2 of 13 , Oct 10, 2000
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        It was an M4A2(76) HVSS. It's operational history was that it was purchased
        from the US in 1947, used for training for about 10 years, and they retired
        at the waterfront as a monument. It did not server overseas anywhere.

        The Lancaster has been moved to the Toronto Aerospace Museum, where it is
        being restored. I have no idea what happened to the other pieces (they might
        still be there, I haven't looked at that parcel of land since the Lancaster
        was moved).

        Chuck Rothman

        > When I was a kid, I remember playing down at the waterfront near
        > Exhibition Park, on a WWII monument that included a Lancaster (FM
        > 104, I belIeve), a bofors (I think? - some sort of AA piece) and a
        > Sherman tank.
        >
        > I don't rememeber a lot about it, because I was just a kid then.
        >
        > Does anyone know this tank? What variant was it? Does anyone know
        > what its operational history was?
      • HL.Spoelstra@inter.NL.net
        ... Ken, There was a Lancaster, Sherman tank and 25-pdr field gun. When I visited Toronto in December last year, the Lancaster had just been taken off its
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 10, 2000
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          --- In G104@egroups.com, khall@w... wrote:
          > When I was a kid, I remember playing down at the waterfront near
          > Exhibition Park, on a WWII monument that included a lancaster (FM
          > 104, I belIeve), a bofors (I think? - some sort of AA piece) and a
          > Sherman tank.
          >
          > I don't rememeber a lot about it, because I was just a kid then.
          >
          > Does anyone know this tank? What variant was it? Does anyone know
          > what its operational history was?


          Ken,

          There was a Lancaster, Sherman tank and 25-pdr field gun. When
          I visited Toronto in December last year, the Lancaster had just been
          taken off its plinth to be restored. This year the Sherman tank and
          25-pdr gun found a new home also.

          The Sherman is an M4A2(76)W HVSS, one of 300 acquired by Canada in
          1946 to be used for
          training (http://web.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/cdn.htm). This
          very example served with the Ontario Regiment, Royal Canadian Armoured
          Corps, which is why the Oshawa Military and Industrial Museum
          (http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/8716/) tried to get hold of
          it. Since they could not comply with the strict regulations for
          keeping the artefact (temperature controlled environment etc.) - as if
          the Sherman had not stood outside for decades - they did not get it. I
          was told recently it went to the Canadian War Museum at Ottawa
          eventually.

          I don't know where the 25-pdr gun went.

          Hope this helps to revitalize your childhood memories!
          Regards,
          Hanno
        • Roberto Flores Yoldi
          Hi, guys!! I hope you´ll like this: http://members.nbci.com/warmour/m4a3sher.htm Cheers, Roberto http://www.navarra.org/rflores
          Message 4 of 13 , Oct 10, 2000
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            Hi, guys!!

            I hope you´ll like this:



            http://members.nbci.com/warmour/m4a3sher.htm

            Cheers,

            Roberto
            http://www.navarra.org/rflores
          • khall@wayward.co.uk
            Was that the original paint for the engine compartment? This is the first time I ve seen the inside of one - was it standard to paint the engine compartment
            Message 5 of 13 , Oct 11, 2000
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              Was that the original paint for the engine compartment? This is the
              first time I've seen the inside of one - was it standard to paint the
              engine compartment with the rust-colour, or were they in the cream
              that the rest of the interior was?

              Thanks,

              Ken.

              --- In G104@egroups.com, "Roberto Flores Yoldi" <rflores@a...> wrote:
              > Hi, guys!!
              >
              > I hope you´ll like this:
              >
              >
              >
              > http://members.nbci.com/warmour/m4a3sher.htm
              >
              > Cheers,
              >
              > Roberto
              > http://www.navarra.org/rflores
            • HL.Spoelstra@inter.NL.net
              ... Ken, All of the inside surfaces of US-built tanks were painted plain white. The cream colour one can see on surviving examples is nothing more than aged
              Message 6 of 13 , Oct 11, 2000
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                --- In G104@egroups.com, khall@w... wrote:
                > Was that the original paint for the engine compartment?
                > This is the first time I've seen the inside of one - was it
                > standard to paint the engine compartment with the rust-colour,
                > or were they in the cream that the rest of the interior was?


                Ken,

                All of the inside surfaces of US-built tanks were painted plain white.
                The cream colour one can see on surviving examples is nothing more
                than aged white paint.

                The colour you see in the engine bay pictures
                (http://members.nbci.com/warmour/m4a3sher.htm) is lead primer. I know
                the subject Sherman: it is a partially restored M4A4 that was fitted
                with a radial engine. I don't know why the editor calls it an M4A3, I
                think he confused his Sherman designations somewhat.

                Regards,
                Hanno
              • lenthecooper
                Hello All! I ve been trying to catch up on all the old postings- jeez you guys chatter! - and ran across one of my interests, namely the old gate guards across
                Message 7 of 13 , Dec 5, 2001
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                  Hello All!

                  I've been trying to catch up on all the old postings- jeez you guys
                  chatter! - and ran across one of my interests, namely the old gate
                  guards across fom the Princes' Gates at the Canadian National
                  Exhibition in Toronto.

                  Hanno, the M4A3 that was there, was indeed issued to the Ont Regt but
                  was later posted to the GGHG and was the last such veh in the Regt
                  when it was re-organized to Recce. I interviewed the crew commander
                  (Capt Jim Davis CD, ret'd, ex RSM) who stated that it had been signed
                  off to Crown Assets and then was driven it down to the plinth, clean
                  as a whistle and parked it there and drained all fuel, and
                  lubricants. Then while they watched (so no-one would scavenge) the
                  RCEME welded the hatches shut. Unfortunately, the sparks caused a
                  fire inside (turret or engine compartment, he didn't say)and badly
                  damaged the vehicle. He believed that the engine was removed soon
                  after.

                  Any idea if this tank is at the Canadian War Museum?

                  The Bofors and the 25 pounder that were also on display were the last
                  guns of the two units which make up the present 7 Toronto Regt RCA.
                  Any word on where these guns have been moved to?

                  My contacts at Heritage Toronto have no idea of the whereabouts of
                  these items, or they're being cagy for some reason. Worry about anti-
                  military reaction perhaps?

                  The M4A3 outside of Denison Armoury in North York (Toronto) was one
                  of the last of the Ont R Tanks as they held onto their veh the
                  longest of all the area units. Apparently this one was parked and had
                  it's engine run oil-less until it seized up so that the government
                  couldn't sell it to Isreal where numerous others had been shipped as
                  'spare parts.,'( Capt Dragalla, ex RSM OntR) Spare parts were sold by
                  Levy Autobody in Weston Ont some of which were swept into the Humber
                  River by Hurricane Hazel.

                  Next M4A3 Question. Where is Carol?

                  Cheers,

                  Len
                • Geoff Winnington-Ball
                  Len, in all below, you actually mean M4A2, don t you. Anyway, regards your last question, CAROL is alive and well and still running, parked on a farm outside
                  Message 8 of 13 , Dec 6, 2001
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                    Len, in all below, you actually mean M4A2, don't you.

                    Anyway, regards your last question, CAROL is alive and well and
                    still running, parked on a farm outside Toronto. I haven't talked
                    to Don for about six months now, so thanks for the reminder,
                    I'll give him a call.

                    Geoff





                    Regards,

                    Geoff Winnington-Ball
                    MAPLE LEAF UP! ==>
                    Zephyr, Ontario, Canada
                    <sunray@...>
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    Maple Leaf Up - The Canadian Army Overseas in WW2
                    http://www.mapleleafup.org
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                    1st Canadian Armoured Carrier Regiment
                    http://www.1cacr.org
                    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

                    >--- Original Message ---
                    >From: "lenthecooper" <lheidebrecht@...>
                    >To: G104@yahoogroups.com
                    >Date: 12/5/01 11:03:05 PM
                    >

                    >Hello All!
                    >
                    >I've been trying to catch up on all the old postings- jeez you
                    guys
                    >chatter! - and ran across one of my interests, namely the old
                    gate
                    >guards across fom the Princes' Gates at the Canadian National

                    >Exhibition in Toronto.
                    >
                    >Hanno, the M4A3 that was there, was indeed issued to the Ont
                    Regt but
                    >was later posted to the GGHG and was the last such veh in the
                    Regt
                    >when it was re-organized to Recce. I interviewed the crew commander

                    >(Capt Jim Davis CD, ret'd, ex RSM) who stated that it had been
                    signed
                    >off to Crown Assets and then was driven it down to the plinth,
                    clean
                    >as a whistle and parked it there and drained all fuel, and
                    >lubricants. Then while they watched (so no-one would scavenge)
                    the
                    >RCEME welded the hatches shut. Unfortunately, the sparks caused
                    a
                    >fire inside (turret or engine compartment, he didn't say)and
                    badly
                    >damaged the vehicle. He believed that the engine was removed
                    soon
                    >after.
                    >
                    >Any idea if this tank is at the Canadian War Museum?
                    >
                    >The Bofors and the 25 pounder that were also on display were
                    the last
                    >guns of the two units which make up the present 7 Toronto Regt
                    RCA.
                    >Any word on where these guns have been moved to?
                    >
                    >My contacts at Heritage Toronto have no idea of the whereabouts
                    of
                    >these items, or they're being cagy for some reason. Worry about
                    anti-
                    >military reaction perhaps?
                    >
                    >The M4A3 outside of Denison Armoury in North York (Toronto)
                    was one
                    >of the last of the Ont R Tanks as they held onto their veh the

                    >longest of all the area units. Apparently this one was parked
                    and had
                    >it's engine run oil-less until it seized up so that the government

                    >couldn't sell it to Isreal where numerous others had been shipped
                    as
                    >'spare parts.,'( Capt Dragalla, ex RSM OntR) Spare parts were
                    sold by
                    >Levy Autobody in Weston Ont some of which were swept into the
                    Humber
                    >River by Hurricane Hazel.
                    >
                    >Next M4A3 Question. Where is Carol?
                    >
                    >Cheers,
                    >
                    >Len
                    >
                    >
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                  • Tom Wolboldt
                    Hi List I meet a guy from Alberta last year who told me there were a bunch of M4A2s on a firing range in northern Alberta ( I don t remember which base).
                    Message 9 of 13 , Dec 8, 2001
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                      Hi List

                      I meet a guy from Alberta last year who told me there were a bunch
                      of M4A2s on a firing range in northern Alberta ( I don't remember which
                      base). That's all I can add.

                      Tom
                    • lenthecooper
                      ... Sorry I am to show my ignorance but I thought that the number of armoured veh in the Toronto area were all M4A3E8, from the mass purchase after Korea.
                      Message 10 of 13 , Dec 8, 2001
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                        --- In G104@y..., "Geoff Winnington-Ball" <gwball@s...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Len, in all below, you actually mean M4A2, don't you.
                        >

                        Sorry I am to show my ignorance but I thought that the number of
                        armoured veh in the Toronto area were all M4A3E8, from the mass
                        purchase after Korea. Perhaps I am mistaken.

                        The question I posted still stands. What is the location of the tank
                        and the guns?

                        I agree with Dana about the hypocrisy of the Toronto Histerical Board
                        (who changed their name to Heritage Toronto.. more PC don't ya know.)
                        Carl Benn who headed up the Committee, while a good historian and a
                        very nice person, really likes to put things behind glass cases so
                        they can be observed in 'pristine' conditions for future generations.
                        While this is fantastic for conservation, it's rather sterile and
                        tends to be well, er, boring as all heck. A difference of
                        interpretive philosophy which can send some people frothing on the
                        ground with anger.

                        Oh, there was a plan a few years ago, to remove all the trees at the
                        waterfront until it was discovered that they are memorials to the CEF
                        Bns. Sad eh?

                        Cheers,

                        Len
                      • Geoff Winnington-Ball
                        Len, The history of our involvement with A3s is limited to Korea itself. We took over Achilles Tank Destroyers, but swapped them out for American M4A3E8s in
                        Message 11 of 13 , Dec 8, 2001
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                          Len,

                          The history of our involvement with A3s is limited to Korea itself. We took over
                          Achilles Tank Destroyers, but swapped them out for American M4A3E8s in situ,
                          presumably in order to remain under the wing of their immense supply train. As
                          far as I know, we left them there, and came back to our M4A2E8s, emminently more
                          useful with the twin GM 671 powerpacks. These stayed in service with some
                          militia armour units until the beginning of the seventies.

                          I don't know the acquisition history of the A2s, but CAROL, for instance, is
                          dated August 1945 if I remember correctly, but I have no idea when we might have
                          taken her on-strength in the RCAC. We DO know that a lot of our A2s went to
                          Israel through Levy Auto Parts (now defunct).

                          Regards current locations, refer back to the THB web page Dana provided; we must
                          presume that all artifacts are now in the hands of the "winners" of that little
                          competition, although it should be fairly easy to confirm. I had heard that the
                          ONTARS worked furiously to try to reclaim that particular tank, but ran up
                          against a complete brick wall with THB regarding impossible regulations and
                          conditions of preservation. Bureaucrats... gotta love 'em (nobody else does!).

                          Cheers,

                          Geoff



                          lenthecooper wrote:

                          > Sorry I am to show my ignorance but I thought that the number of
                          > armoured veh in the Toronto area were all M4A3E8, from the mass
                          > purchase after Korea. Perhaps I am mistaken.
                          >
                          > The question I posted still stands. What is the location of the tank
                          > and the guns?
                          >
                          > I agree with Dana about the hypocrisy of the Toronto Histerical Board
                          > (who changed their name to Heritage Toronto.. more PC don't ya know.)
                          > Carl Benn who headed up the Committee, while a good historian and a
                          > very nice person, really likes to put things behind glass cases so
                          > they can be observed in 'pristine' conditions for future generations.
                          > While this is fantastic for conservation, it's rather sterile and
                          > tends to be well, er, boring as all heck. A difference of
                          > interpretive philosophy which can send some people frothing on the
                          > ground with anger.
                          >
                          > Oh, there was a plan a few years ago, to remove all the trees at the
                          > waterfront until it was discovered that they are memorials to the CEF
                          > Bns. Sad eh?

                          --
                          Regards,

                          Geoff Winnington-Ball
                          MAPLE LEAF UP! ==>
                          Zephyr, Ontario, Canada
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          Maple Leaf Up - The Canadian Army Overseas in WW2
                          http://www.mapleleafup.org
                          <sunray@...>
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                          1st Canadian Armoured Carrier Regiment
                          http://www.1cacr.org
                          <info@...>
                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                        • Hanno Spoelstra
                          ... have ... Read some more at http://www.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/cdn.htm ... Can you supply some more information on these sales to Israel? Regards,
                          Message 12 of 13 , Dec 8, 2001
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                            At 10:46 8-12-2001 -0500, Geoff Winnington-Ball wrote:
                            >I don't know the acquisition history of the A2s, but CAROL, for instance, is
                            >dated August 1945 if I remember correctly, but I have no idea when we might
                            have
                            >taken her on-strength in the RCAC.


                            Read some more at http://www.inter.nl.net/users/spoelstra/g104/cdn.htm


                            >We DO know that a lot of our A2s went to
                            >Israel through Levy Auto Parts (now defunct).


                            Can you supply some more information on these sales to Israel?


                            Regards,
                            Hanno
                          • Geoff Winnington-Ball
                            ... I don t have any information at hand, Hanno, but it could be found out. Enough people knew about it at the time! (late sixties)..... -- Regards, Geoff
                            Message 13 of 13 , Dec 8, 2001
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                              Hanno Spoelstra wrote:

                              > >We DO know that a lot of our A2s went to
                              > >Israel through Levy Auto Parts (now defunct).
                              >
                              > Can you supply some more information on these sales to Israel?

                              I don't have any information at hand, Hanno, but it could be found out. Enough
                              people knew about it at the time! (late sixties).....


                              --
                              Regards,

                              Geoff Winnington-Ball
                              MAPLE LEAF UP! ==>
                              Zephyr, Ontario, Canada
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              Maple Leaf Up - The Canadian Army Overseas in WW2
                              http://www.mapleleafup.org
                              <sunray@...>
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                              1st Canadian Armoured Carrier Regiment
                              http://www.1cacr.org
                              <info@...>
                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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