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Re: [G104] Sherman IVc/M4A3,17pounder? *Pics*

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  • Joseph DeMarco
    Hi Mike ... I would say that is an M4 that s been modified a quite a bit. The upper rear hull plate has a steeper angle than M4A3s had. Also, in the photo that
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 18, 2003
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      Hi Mike

      >a rather heavily used Sherman IVc (remanufactured DV model)

      I would say that is an M4 that's been modified a quite a bit.
      The upper rear hull plate has a steeper angle than M4A3s had.
      Also, in the photo that shows the exhaust deflector, there's evidence
      that the M4 style cut-out on the rear plate has been filled in.
      It looks to me like this tank has the "square on the bottom,
      round on the top" drivers' hoods rather than DV (direct vision).
      If it was an M4A3, it would have to be a Ford-built.
      There are a lot of Fords on display throughout the US, but I've never
      seen one with the "square on the bottom, round on the top" hoods.
      I would guess this is a Pullman-built M4.
      The type of antenna socket casting it has can be seen in a few pix of
      Pullman M4s/M4A2s with serial numbers in the 30xxx & 31xxx range.
      You can kinda see a similar antenna socket on USA 3039715 on
      page 20 of Zaloga's "M4 Sherman at War" (7001).

      >We know that Argentina received 120 Fireflies, officially Vc and Ic models.
      >Perhaps a few from the US conversion lot were slipped in the mix?

      Who knows? It's possible the Argentine Firefly was a US conversion.
      The document "Program for Mounting 17lbr In American M4 & M4A3" lists
      the USA Reg. Numbers, 17 lbr Gun Numbers & so forth of 80 Shermans.
      An examination of the tank might provide some info...

      Joe

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <mykef2@...>
      To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 9:02 AM
      Subject: [G104] Sherman IVc/M4A3,17pounder? *Pics*


      > Perhaps the answer to "Where did all of the M4A3 Fireflies go?"
      >
      > Go to:
      >
      > <A HREF="http://modelersite.com/">http://modelersite.com</A>
      >
      > Select Language
      >
      > Agree to usage terms.
      >
      > Click on ARCHIVE
      >
      > Click on ARMOR
      >
      > Select: Argentine Sherman
      >
      > Result a photo walkaround of a rather heavily used Sherman IVc
      > (remanufactured DV model) converted near the end of the war. (Note the late war exhaust
      > deflector.) Currently on duty in Argentina.
      >
      >We know that Argentina received 120 Fireflies, officially Vc and Ic models.
      >
      > Perhaps a few from the US conversion lot were slipped in the mix?
      >
      > Let me know what you think.
      >
      > mike
    • mykef2@aol.com
      The references that Joe mentions on the US Firefly conversion program are reproduced on Mark Hayward s Firefly site.
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 18, 2003
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        The references that Joe mentions on the US Firefly conversion program are
        reproduced on Mark Hayward's Firefly site.

        <A HREF="http://freespace.virgin.net/shermanic.firefly/usnew.html">http://freespace.virgin.net/shermanic.firefly/usnew.html</A>

        mike


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • tgann11@comcast.net
        This is a run of the mill British conversion Firefly that had been re-engined for the Argentine Army. The Argentine Fireflies went through two of these engine
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 19, 2003
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          This is a run of the mill British conversion Firefly that had been re-engined for the Argentine Army. The Argentine Fireflies went through two of these engine changes, with this being the first. The deck is not quite that of the M4A3, but it is close. Look closely at the grills and the forward filler cap splash guard. The lower rear plate is almost identical to the M4A3, at least in the lower portion, and the exhaust deflector is the same. The engine was a French diesel, but I cannot put my hands on the type right now. Later, these vehicles received another engine change, with a deck that is made from solid plates, with the exhaust exiting out the top, where the doors meet, and extending back. This later version also mounted the 105mm gun from the AMX-13. As far as I know, the tanks were purchased commercially, with the French involved in the engine changeouts. TheArgentine Army had Vc's and Ic's, both straight and composite.

          Tom
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: mykef2@...
          To: G104@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, July 18, 2003 9:02 AM
          Subject: [G104] Sherman IVc/M4A3,17pounder? *Pics*


          Perhaps the answer to "Where did all of the M4A3 Fireflies go?"

          Go to:

          <A HREF="http://modelersite.com/">http://modelersite.com</A>

          Select Language

          Agree to usage terms.

          Click on ARCHIVE

          Click on ARMOR

          Select: Argentine Sherman

          Result a photo walkaround of a rather heavily used Sherman IVc
          (remanufactured DV model) converted near the end of the war. (Note the late war exhaust
          deflector.) Currently on duty in Argentina.

          We know that Argentina received 120 Fireflies, officially Vc and Ic models.

          Perhaps a few from the US conversion lot were slipped in the mix?

          Let me know what you think.

          mike









          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Peter BROWN
          According to BLINDADOS ARGENTINOS, URUGUYOS Y PARAGUYOS by Ricardo Sigal Fogliani (ISBN 987-95382-7-2) published by Ayer Y Hoy Ediciones, Cochabamba 1437 PB
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 19, 2003
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            According to BLINDADOS ARGENTINOS, URUGUYOS Y PARAGUYOS by Ricardo Sigal
            Fogliani (ISBN 987-95382-7-2) published by Ayer Y Hoy Ediciones, Cochabamba
            1437 PB "A", Capital Federal, Cod. 1148, Buenos Aires, Republica Argentina
            which I believe is out of print, some 120 vehicles were refitted with the
            French Poyaud 520 diesel, 8 cylinder "V" giving 450HP at 2,600 r.p.m, but
            other references state that it is a Poyaud 580 V8 S25 liquid-cooled diesel
            engines developing 570 hp
          • mykef2@aol.com
            Are there any photos of the modifications or the modified tanks in this reference? mike [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 20, 2003
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              Are there any photos of the modifications or the modified tanks in this
              reference?

              mike


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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