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Late Low Bustle Turret

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  • mykef2@aol.com
    Kurt, I might have been to hasty on the late low bustle usage on the DD. I have been unable to locate the photo that I thought I saw way back when...tap
    Message 1 of 14 , Jan 31, 2002
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      Kurt,
      I might have been to hasty on the late low bustle usage on the DD. I
      have been unable to locate the photo that I thought I saw way back when...tap
      dance, etc.

      Mike Canaday says they were all high bustle and he is usually right
      about such stuff.

      However, I can send you photos that I took of a turret that has all the
      hallmarks of what Dyer called a late production low bustle with loaders
      hatch. They were taken at Ft Ben Harrison back in '91.

      The tank in question is the E-13-13 mechanized flamethrower, page 412
      Hunnicutt.

      I believe the turret was cast with the loader's hatch opening rather
      than a modification; because the location of the casting numbers, sometimes
      found on the top of the turret, had been shifted and centered between the
      loader's hatch and the T/C hatch. It was too nicely spaced to be
      coincidence.

      The Turret had the cheek reinforcement and the pistol port.

      The only obvious modification to the turret shell was that the
      loader's periscope forward of the loader's hatch had been replaced with an
      armored fuel cap and a "dam" bead had been welded around it to keep any
      spilled fuel from running into the hatch.

      There was also a strange dome shaped knob welded to the outer face of
      the pistol port hatch, the purpose of which escapes me.

      The fake "gun tube" might have started life as a real 75 that was
      bored out, because it's outer taper was correct.

      The hull had the cast-in reinforcements over the ammo racks
      positions.

      I wish now that I had checked for that wedge shaped drain gutter on
      the rear or the serial numbers under the overhang, but I didn't know in
      eleven years it was going to be important.

      I have heard rumors that this vehicle was sold off by the Army when
      it closed Fort Ben and is now in private hands.





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Kurt Laughlin
      ... From: ... the ... That would be great. All the other leads on D50878 turrets with loader s hatches have turned out to be the Blitz
      Message 2 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: <mykef2@...>


        > However, I can send you photos that I took of a turret that has all
        the
        > hallmarks of what Dyer called a late production low bustle with loaders
        > hatch. They were taken at Ft Ben Harrison back in '91.

        That would be great. All the other leads on D50878 turrets with loader's
        hatches have turned out to be the Blitz pilots, Fireflies, or high-bustles.
        . .

        > I believe the turret was cast with the loader's hatch opening rather
        > There was also a strange dome shaped knob welded to the outer face
        of
        > the pistol port hatch, the purpose of which escapes me.

        I think I've seen or heard of that before on another FT tank.

        > The fake "gun tube" might have started life as a real 75 that was
        > bored out, because it's outer taper was correct.

        Most likely. That was what was used on the M-4-5 (?) or so forth that
        became the M42 series.

        > I wish now that I had checked for that wedge shaped drain gutter
        on
        > the rear or the serial numbers under the overhang, but I didn't know in
        > eleven years it was going to be important.

        Heck, I've lost a whole Sherman that I photographed "somewhere in New
        Jersey" back around 1970. Now I just photo the crap out of everything.

        > I have heard rumors that this vehicle was sold off by the Army
        when
        > it closed Fort Ben and is now in private hands.

        Typically the Army wouldn't sell such a thing, certainly not in the recent
        environment (1990 +). There have been vehicles that "evaporated" or
        "wandered off" to private owners, however. . .

        KL
      • wwwpanserdk
        ... loader s ... bustles. ... IIRC, two of the surviving Danish Army M4A3-E4 have D50878 on their turrets, which are low-bustle with a loaders hatch. One,
        Message 3 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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          --- In G104@y..., "Kurt Laughlin" <fleeta@s...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > That would be great. All the other leads on D50878 turrets with
          loader's
          > hatches have turned out to be the Blitz pilots, Fireflies, or high-
          bustles.
          > . .

          IIRC, two of the surviving Danish Army M4A3-E4 have "D50878" on their
          turrets, which are low-bustle with a loaders hatch.

          One, lets call it the "Toender" vehicle, had "D50878" stamped on the
          right hand turret side, the other, the "Holstebro" vehicle
          had "50878" (no "D") stamped just to left of the turret ventilator.

          In both cases, I guess the hatch may have been put there during the
          remanufacturing proces.

          Claus B
        • Kees Huyser
          The Canadian Heritage Gallery has some ram/sherman photo s online; check these out: http://www.canadianheritage.org/reproductions/20566.htm
          Message 4 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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          • mykef2@aol.com
            Kurt, The cast turret numbers for the E-13-13 are D50878E SER 5573 hth, mike [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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              Kurt,
              The cast turret numbers for the E-13-13 are D50878E
              SER 5573

              hth,
              mike


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Tom Gannon
              Hunnicut, page 456, shows a D50878 turret with loader s hatch. It is most likely a purpose-built turret due to the timing for the mine roller prototype. Page
              Message 6 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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                Hunnicut, page 456, shows a D50878 turret with loader's hatch. It is most
                likely a purpose-built turret due to the timing for the mine roller
                prototype. Page 426 shows a small hatch DD with a loader's hatch , but you
                really can't tell about the bustle. I've seen other small hatch DD's with
                high bustle turrets, just like Aunt Jemima 2 on page 457. There are any
                number of Composites that could have it but I can't seem to find a rear or
                left hand shot.

                There are also tons of examples of retrofitted hatches, some of which have
                flush welds, while others stick up quite a bit.

                Tom
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "wwwpanserdk" <panser@...>
                To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, February 01, 2002 8:23 AM
                Subject: [G104] Re: Late Low Bustle Turret


                > --- In G104@y..., "Kurt Laughlin" <fleeta@s...> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > > That would be great. All the other leads on D50878 turrets with
                > loader's
                > > hatches have turned out to be the Blitz pilots, Fireflies, or high-
                > bustles.
                > > . .
                >
                > IIRC, two of the surviving Danish Army M4A3-E4 have "D50878" on their
                > turrets, which are low-bustle with a loaders hatch.
                >
                > One, lets call it the "Toender" vehicle, had "D50878" stamped on the
                > right hand turret side, the other, the "Holstebro" vehicle
                > had "50878" (no "D") stamped just to left of the turret ventilator.
                >
                > In both cases, I guess the hatch may have been put there during the
                > remanufacturing proces.
                >
                > Claus B
                >
                >
                >
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              • mykef2@aol.com
                The turret markings for the E-13-13 flamethrower tank are D50878E SER5573. Hunnicutt pg. 412. It is the one I photographed at Ft Harrison a decade or so ago.
                Message 7 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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                  The turret markings for the E-13-13 flamethrower tank are D50878E SER5573.
                  Hunnicutt pg. 412. It is the one I photographed at Ft Harrison a decade or
                  so ago.

                  Cast marks are nicely centered between the loader's hatch, ventilator and TC
                  hatch.


                  mike


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Kurt Laughlin
                  ... The significant feature of that turret is the built up area under the loader s hatch hinge. If you look at an overhead view of a high bustle, say page
                  Message 8 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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                    ----- Original Message -----

                    > Hunnicut, page 456, shows a D50878 turret with loader's hatch. It is most
                    > likely a purpose-built turret due to the timing for the mine roller
                    > prototype.

                    The significant feature of that turret is the built up area under the
                    loader's hatch hinge. If you look at an overhead view of a high bustle, say
                    page 268, the fixed part of the hinge lies quite flat. This could mean
                    something. The p456 serial is apparently 4595, but it is a Union turret - I
                    think the one Mike describes is a GSC.

                    > There are also tons of examples of retrofitted hatches, some of which have
                    > flush welds, while others stick up quite a bit.

                    Yes, that's the problem. I'm still looking for evidence of an American
                    produced or modified D50878 turret with a loader's hatch that existed that
                    way while still in US service.

                    KL
                  • Kurt Laughlin
                    ... From: wwwpanserdk To: ... Yes, I think that s very possible. You wouldn t happen to have photos that would
                    Message 9 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "wwwpanserdk" <panser@...>
                      To: <G104@yahoogroups.com>

                      > In both cases, I guess the hatch may have been put there during the
                      > remanufacturing proces.

                      Yes, I think that's very possible. You wouldn't happen to have photos that
                      would show the foundry symbols, turret serials, or the loader's hatch, would
                      you?

                      KL
                    • Kurt Laughlin
                      ... From: ... SER5573. ... or ... TC ... I finally got to see your photos. Yes, the location of the P/N is awfully suspicious. That is a GSC
                      Message 10 of 14 , Feb 1, 2002
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                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: <mykef2@...>

                        > The turret markings for the E-13-13 flamethrower tank are D50878E
                        SER5573.
                        > Hunnicutt pg. 412. It is the one I photographed at Ft Harrison a decade
                        or
                        > so ago.
                        >
                        > Cast marks are nicely centered between the loader's hatch, ventilator and
                        TC
                        > hatch.

                        I finally got to see your photos. Yes, the location of the P/N is awfully
                        suspicious. That is a GSC turret, BTW, you can set their logo on the
                        bustle. I've seen SER 5021E from GSC and it doesn't have a loader's hatch,
                        so maybe this truly was a late feature. Now, if we only had GSC's
                        production records. . .

                        KL
                      • wwwpanserdk
                        ... the ... photos that ... hatch, would ... My ftp-program is slightly broken just now, but once I get it running, I ll post them. Claus B
                        Message 11 of 14 , Feb 2, 2002
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                          --- In G104@y..., "Kurt Laughlin" <fleeta@s...> wrote:
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "wwwpanserdk" <panser@p...>
                          > To: <G104@y...>
                          >
                          > > In both cases, I guess the hatch may have been put there during
                          the
                          > > remanufacturing proces.
                          >
                          > Yes, I think that's very possible. You wouldn't happen to have
                          photos that
                          > would show the foundry symbols, turret serials, or the loader's
                          hatch, would
                          > you?
                          >
                          > KL

                          My ftp-program is slightly broken just now, but once I get it
                          running, I'll post them.

                          Claus B
                        • Joseph DeMarco
                          Hi Mike, I believe your E-13-13 flamethrower Sherman is now on display at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri. The loader s hatch is a factory job, right? There s no
                          Message 12 of 14 , Feb 3, 2002
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                            Hi Mike,

                            I believe "your" E-13-13 flamethrower Sherman is
                            now on display at Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri.

                            The loader's hatch is a factory job, right?
                            There's no General Steel logo on the hull, right?

                            The "strange dome shaped knob welded to the outer face
                            of the pistol port hatch," is said to be a ..."fuel vent."

                            About 2 years ago on this list, Hanno posted that the
                            "Musée des Epaves Sous-Marines Du Débarquement"
                            at Commes, near Port-en-Bessin had among other things:
                            An M4A1 DD with SMALL driver's hatches.
                            An M4A1 DD with LARGE driver's hatches.
                            A Sherman DD turret with oval loader's hatch.

                            Isn't one of these a low bustle turret with loader's hatch?

                            On another note, Chris Hughes, recently posted some photos of an
                            M42B1 Flamethrower tank he saw at Ft McClellan.
                            After the base was closed, the Chemical Weapons Museum
                            was relocated to Ft Leonard Wood.
                            http://www.wood.army.mil/usacmls/museum/museum_main.htm

                            The curator there said they now have the 2 Flamethrower tanks
                            from McClellan.

                            The one that Chris mentioned with the two barrels was also once at APG.
                            There are some photos of it here for comparison:
                            http://battletanks.com/m4_w_flamethrower.htm

                            Anyway, Fort Leonard Wood has some pretty unusual Shermans.
                            Unfortunately, it is probably off-limits to civilian visitors since 9/11.

                            Joe
                          • mykef2@aol.com
                            Dear Joe, If it is a late style small hatch M4A1 with cast-in reinforcements over the ammo stowage, and a fake gun tube, that sounds like the FT Ben E-13-13.
                            Message 13 of 14 , Feb 3, 2002
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                              Dear Joe,

                              If it is a late style small hatch M4A1 with cast-in reinforcements
                              over the ammo stowage, and a fake gun tube, that sounds like the FT Ben
                              E-13-13. No Foundry markings were visible on the glacis.

                              I am retired and have access to the bases, however, I won't be in
                              Missouri anytime soon. Are you located near there?

                              If you or any of our other G104 guys get the chance, I didn't get
                              any photos of the rear end and engine deck. I could also use a better photo
                              of the cheek armor reinforcement.

                              Also, the PN/serial numbers from under the rear overhang would
                              help with the M4A1/Grizzly hull castings research.

                              Cheers,
                              mike


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Joseph DeMarco
                              Hi Mike, As you mentioned, the E-13-13 appears on the top of page 412 of Hunnicutt s book. The photo was taken many years ago at the Ordnance Museum at APG.
                              Message 14 of 14 , Feb 4, 2002
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                                Hi Mike,

                                As you mentioned, the E-13-13 appears on the top
                                of page 412 of Hunnicutt's book. The photo was taken
                                many years ago at the Ordnance Museum at APG.
                                That's close by, & like you, I didn't realize that I might
                                someday be interested in very minute details about Shermans.
                                At the time, I thought it would be sufficient to get one or two
                                photos (B&W) of everything on the lot...

                                BTW, the Flamethrower with the T23 turret on the bottom
                                of page 412 of Hunnicutt was also photographed at APG.
                                It's now hidden away in storage in the "LST" building at
                                Fort Knox (or was the last time I visited).
                                So was the other Sherman that was formerly on display at
                                Fort Ben - a direct vision M4A3.

                                One of the few poor photos I have of the E-13-13 shows that
                                there is a shallow, box-like platform on the rear, that obscures
                                the rain gutter groove, if it has it.

                                Since it's not a General Steel hull, it's probably a Continental.
                                I don't believe the "PN/serial numbers from under the rear overhang"
                                are found in that area on Continental M4A1 hulls, but rather are cast
                                onto the fighting compartment side of the firewall.
                                (I'd be happy to get more confirms/nonconfirms on this.)

                                Joe
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