Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Friesland-genealogy] Re: Crack-probleem: ervaren genealogen advies gevraagd!

Expand Messages
  • jjkrak@planet.nl
    Dank je Appy, Deze Jan is de zoon van Gerrit en mijn voorvader in rechte lijn. Groeten, Jeroen ... Van: appydevries Datum: maandag,
    Message 1 of 14 , Apr 4, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Dank je Appy,

      Deze Jan is de zoon van Gerrit en mijn voorvader in rechte lijn.

      Groeten,

      Jeroen

      ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
      Van: appydevries <appydevries@...>
      Datum: maandag, april 4, 2005 9:51 am
      Onderwerp: Re: [Friesland-genealogy] Re: Crack-probleem: ervaren
      genealogen advies gevraagd!

      >
      > Jeroen;
      > misschien bekend?,maar toch;
      > ''burger boeken''Leeuwarden,
      > Dr.Jan Krak geb.plaats L.warden
      > 19-05-1769 betaalt ; 6 g.g.
      > m227,p.622.
      > groetjes Appy.
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Jeroen Krak" <jjkrak@...>
      > To: <Friesland-genealogy@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2005 9:59 PM
      > Subject: RE: [Friesland-genealogy] Re: Crack-probleem: ervaren
      > genealogenadvies gevraagd!
      >
      >
      > Hallo Nico,
      >
      > Nogmaals dank voor je inhoudelijke reactie. De situatie rond de
      > Heerenveense Cracken is mij uiteraard bekend. Ik heb van drs. Dick
      > Bunskoeke, die jarenlang werkzaam geweest is als gemeentelijk
      > archivarisin Heerenveen, al zijn resultaten van jaren onderzoek
      > gekregen. Zowel
      > hij als ik zijn de mening toegedaan dat de mannelijke lijn van de
      > Heerenveense Cracken rond 1650 is uitgestorven. Op basis van al deze
      > gegevens zijn wij van mening dat er vooralsnog geen relatie te
      > leggen is
      > tussen deze Crack-lijn en mijn eigen Crack-lijn.
      >
      > Volgens mij is hiermee een belangrijke optie uitgesloten. Verder
      > ben ik
      > het met je laatste stelling geheel eens: als er niets meer te
      > onderzoeken valt, is het niet leuk meer...
      >
      > Vriendelijke groeten,
      >
      > Jeroen Krak
      > Doetinchem
      > http://www.krak-family.nl
      >
      >
      > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
      > Van: Nico van der Woude [mailto:woudwise@...]
      > Verzonden: zondag 3 april 2005 21:13
      > Aan: Friesland-genealogy@yahoogroups.com
      > Onderwerp: [Friesland-genealogy] Re: Crack-probleem: ervaren
      > genealogenadvies gevraagd!
      >
      >
      >
      > Hallo Jeroen. Ik kan natuurlijk niet voor je beoordelen, of de
      > punten bij jouw onderzoek ook voldoende onderbouwd zijn. Om te
      > beginnen ben ik niet thuis in jouw 'Krakmaterie'. De zeven punten
      > vragen zeker om een diepdoorwrocht onderzoek: hoe meer, hoe beter.
      > Ik heb zelf dagen lang akten doorgeakkerd, maar zelfs dan kun je
      > iets over het hoofd gezien hebben, of een onvermoede bron
      > onaangeroerd laten. Zo denk ik er toch over, om ook in de omringende
      > grietenijen van Opsterland te gaan ploegen: op zoek naar Sierk
      > Pieters, Egbert Pieters en hun waarschijnlijke vader: Pieter Sierks
      > (zie: Van aver tot aver).
      > Op de punten 1 tot en met 4 ziet het er naar mijn mening acceptabel
      > uit. Maar wel valt mij verder op, dat bij de punten 5, 6 en 7 er nog
      > wel het een en ander te onderzoeken valt. Volgens mij zijn er
      > bijvoorbeeld wel degelijk meer 'Krakken/Cracken' in Friesland.
      > Uiteraard heb ik er geen studie naar verricht, maar in ieder geval
      > was een familie Crack betrokken bij de vervening rond pak 'm beet
      > Schoterland/Opsterland/Aengwirden (vgl. Crackstate te Heerenveen).
      > Bij mijn weten zijn er zelfs grietmannen/gezagsdragers van die naam
      > geweest. Of en hoe er dan verder een relatie is met jouw familie
      > waag ik natuurlijk niet te beweren. Kort en goed: ik denk, dat er
      > verder nog wel onderbouwd moet worden. Uiteraard is mijn reactie
      > positief bedoeld. En verder geldt de paradox van elke genealoog: als
      > het af is, valt er wellicht niets meer te onderzoeken. Dat nu, zou
      > ook jammer zijn.
      >
      >
      > --- In Friesland-genealogy@yahoogroups.com, Jeroen Krak
      > <jjkrak@p...> wrote:
      > > Beste Nico,
      > >
      > > Dank voor je interessante reactie en dito verhaal "van aver tot
      > aver",
      > > dat ik inmiddels op internet gevonden en gelezen heb.
      > >
      > > Als ik jouw "zeven waarden" toepas op de relatie tussen Jan Crack
      > en
      > > Gerrit kom ik tot de volgende opstelling:
      > >
      > > 1. Tijd
      > >
      > > Als Gerrit de zoon van Jan Crack is, is Gerrit 42 jaar als hij
      > trouwt.
      > > Mijns inziens een beetje aan de oude kant maar zeer wel mogelijk.
      > Kwam
      > > dit vaker voor in die tijd?
      > >
      > > 2. Plaats
      > >
      > > Kuinre en Leeuwarden liggen dicht genoeg bij elkaar om een
      > verhuizing
      > > mogelijk te laten zijn, zeker van een wees. Als hierbij bedacht
      > wordt
      > > dat van oudsher Kuinre Fries geweest is en bewonergegevens uit
      > > Leeuwarden meer mensen afkomstig uit Kuinre laten zien, versterkt
      > dit
      > > het punt.
      > >
      > > 3. Milieu
      > >
      > > Gerrit was bode bij de Staten van Friesland, Jan Crack was pander
      > van de
      > > Heerlijkheid Kuinre, beide administratieve ambtelijke beroepen,
      > waar
      > > enige beheersing van taal en juridische procedures voor nodig was.
      > Jan's
      > > vader Hendrik was ook pander in Kuinre en Gerrit's zoon Jan was
      > advocaat
      > > bij het Hof van Friesland.
      > >
      > > 4. Vernoeming
      > >
      > > Gerrit en zijn vrouw krijgen twee kinderen. Zijn oudste zoon heet
      > Jan,
      > > zijn tweede zoon heet Folkert. De vader van zijn vrouw heet
      > Folkert.
      > > Zijn tweede zoon lijkt dus zoals gebruikelijk vernoemd te zijn
      > naar zijn
      > > schoonvader. Zijn eerste zoon Jan zou dus vernoemd moeten zijn
      > naar de
      > > vader van Gerrit. Dit klopt dus als Jan Crack de vader van Gerrit
      > is.
      > >
      > > 5. Erfbezittingen
      > >
      > > Niet aangetroffen.
      > >
      > > 6. Bijkomend bewijs
      > >
      > > Er is geen sprake van patroniemen maar van een familienaam, die
      > > voldoende uniciteit heeft om niet zomaar met een andere verward te
      > > kunnen worden.
      > >
      > > Het gevonden proefschrift ter promotie tot doctor in de rechten
      > met als
      > > onderwerp over wezen en voogdijzaken sluit naadloos aan bij het
      > feit dat
      > > zowel Gerrit als zijn zoon Jan beide jong wees geworden zijn.
      > >
      > > Jan Crack, Gerrit Krack en diens zoon Jan Krak overlijden allen op
      > vrij
      > > jonge leeftijd. Hoewel misschien niet ongebruikelijk vind ik dit
      > toch
      > > opmerkelijk.
      > >
      > > 7. Uitsluiting van andere opties
      > >
      > > Tussen 1690 en 1710, de periode waarin Gerrit ongeveer geboren moet
      > > zijn, en ook in de periode daarvoor zijn er geen andere Crack,
      > Krack of
      > > Krak families in Leeuwarden of Friesland terug te vinden, behalve
      > de nu
      > > gevonden Crack in Kuinre.
      > >
      > > Conclusie
      > >
      > > Gezien de veelheid van gevonden indicaties, zeker op de belangrijke
      > > punten 1 t/m 4, maar ook punt 6 en 7, zou ik dus volgens jouw
      > methode
      > > kunnen stellen dat er sprake is van een betrouwbare relatie.
      > >
      > > Onderschrijf je deze analyse?
      > >
      > > Vriendelijke groeten,
      > >
      > > Jeroen Krak
      > > Doetinchem
      > > http://www.krak-family.nl
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Genealogy yn Fryslân: http://www.genealogy-yn-fryslan.tk/.
      >
      > Het archief van deze lijst voor Friese genealogen met daarin alle
      > sinds8 juli 1999 geposte berichten staat op
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Friesland-genealogy
      >
      > Om uw abonnement te beëindigen stuurt u een (leeg) email-bericht naar:
      > Friesland-genealogy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
      > ~-->
      > DonorsChoose. A simple way to provide underprivileged children
      > resources
      > often lacking in public schools. Fund a student project in NYC/NC
      > today!http://us.click.yahoo.com/T_B0zD/.WnJAA/a8ILAA/FvNolB/TM
      > -------------------------------------------------------------------
      > -~->
      >
      > Genealogy yn Fryslân: http://www.genealogy-yn-fryslan.tk/.
      >
      > Het archief van deze lijst voor Friese genealogen met daarin alle
      > sinds 8 juli 1999 geposte berichten staat op
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Friesland-genealogy
      >
      > Om uw abonnement te beëindigen stuurt u een (leeg) email-bericht naar:
      > Friesland-genealogy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • kbylsma1
      Beste medespeurders: I followed the interesting discussion regarding how certain we can be in making family connections. Nico s criteria seem to be quite
      Message 2 of 14 , Apr 4, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Beste medespeurders:

        I followed the interesting discussion regarding how certain we can
        be in making family connections. Nico's criteria seem to be quite
        useful. I am wondering if religious affiliation might also be added
        among relevant criteria.

        I will relate a similar situation which has pre-occupied me for a few
        years. Other genealogists such as Sjirk Dijkstra and Hans Bottema
        have also helped in trying to resolve my puzzle.

        My ancestor, Jitske Fokkes, was a member of the `doopsgezinde' church
        in Joure; she married Tjebbe Watzes Dijkstra on April 11, 1802, and
        died in Broek, Doniawerstal, on January 15, 1850. At the time of
        death, no family name is given but by tradition, it was believed that
        her family name was Idema. It is known that her brother was Yede
        Fokkes Yedema from Joure; Sjirk Dijkstra unearthed a contract
        between him and his brother-in-law Tjebbe Watzes Dijkstra. He also
        found a marriage in Sneek between a Fokke Ides and Hinke (?) and a
        date of birth in Sneek for Jitske Fokkes, their daughter.

        My puzzle was the origin of the Fokke Ides, who was the father of
        Jitske Fokkes. After much search on the Internet, I came upon likely
        parentage in Oldeboorn. See my website under Idema:
        http://kbylsma.bravehost.com/ . I found a Yde Fockes married to a
        Jitske (Tjiske) Meintes in 1739 in Oldeboorn, who also belonged to
        the `doopsgezinde' church. This family has a long background in
        this village and church. However, it appears that only one son,
        Meint, was known about.

        To what extent can we establish a family connection? If we take
        Nico's criteria: the conclusion must remain uncertain: dates are
        fine; place is possible (Oldeboorn to Sneek is not a long distance);
        milieu is unclear because we do not know what the Fokke Ides in Sneek
        had as occupation; names are very clear; for inheritance, nothing
        is known; as to other possible candidates, to date nothing has been
        found. However, the religious continuity should be added as a
        definite criteria, given that the `doopsgezinde' church was a small
        minority of the population in Fryslan. Another argument that might
        be forwarded is to note the early dates of death of Yde Fockes
        (before 1746) and Jitske (Tjiske) Meintes (before 1759); if they
        had a son called Fokke, he may have been obliged to look for work
        elsewhere at a young age. Another issue which can be underlined is
        that as `doopsgezinden', no date of baptism as a infant would exist
        for a Fokke Ydes who may have been born in Oldeboorn in about 1740.

        Any thoughts on this puzzle are welcome!

        Klaas Bylsma (engels, nederlands, frysk)
        Website at: http://kbylsma.bravehost.com/

        --knip--
      • Jeroen Krak
        Dear Klaas & Nico, I tend to agree with the suggestion to add religion as a separate criterium, even to the extend considering it as one of the main important
        Message 3 of 14 , Apr 4, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Klaas & Nico,

          I tend to agree with the suggestion to add religion as a separate
          criterium, even to the extend considering it as one of the main
          important criteria. My understanding from Nico's criteria is that he has
          incorporated it as additional evidence but indeed there is reason to
          consider it more important than only additional.

          Another thought crossed my mind. There is a big difference between
          linking a person with a child known by name to another known person in
          ones own ancestry with the same name as this known child, or linking a
          person in ones own ancestry to a possible parent with no direct
          knowledge of known children of this person. One could call such a
          criterium for instance "first name-family name-match", better
          suggestions welcomed.

          Introducing the above two criteria possibly strengthens the outcome of
          the evaluation of the likeliness of affiliation.

          Vriendelijke groeten,

          Jeroen Krak
          Doetinchem
          http://www.krak-family.nl


          -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
          Van: kbylsma1 [mailto:kbylsma@...]
          Verzonden: maandag 4 april 2005 17:02
          Aan: Friesland-genealogy@yahoogroups.com
          Onderwerp: [Friesland-genealogy] Re: Crack-probleem: ervaren genealogen
          advies gevraagd!



          Beste medespeurders:

          I followed the interesting discussion regarding how certain we can
          be in making family connections. Nico's criteria seem to be quite
          useful. I am wondering if religious affiliation might also be added
          among relevant criteria.

          I will relate a similar situation which has pre-occupied me for a few
          years. Other genealogists such as Sjirk Dijkstra and Hans Bottema
          have also helped in trying to resolve my puzzle.

          My ancestor, Jitske Fokkes, was a member of the `doopsgezinde' church
          in Joure; she married Tjebbe Watzes Dijkstra on April 11, 1802, and
          died in Broek, Doniawerstal, on January 15, 1850. At the time of
          death, no family name is given but by tradition, it was believed that
          her family name was Idema. It is known that her brother was Yede
          Fokkes Yedema from Joure; Sjirk Dijkstra unearthed a contract
          between him and his brother-in-law Tjebbe Watzes Dijkstra. He also
          found a marriage in Sneek between a Fokke Ides and Hinke (?) and a
          date of birth in Sneek for Jitske Fokkes, their daughter.

          My puzzle was the origin of the Fokke Ides, who was the father of
          Jitske Fokkes. After much search on the Internet, I came upon likely
          parentage in Oldeboorn. See my website under Idema:
          http://kbylsma.bravehost.com/ . I found a Yde Fockes married to a
          Jitske (Tjiske) Meintes in 1739 in Oldeboorn, who also belonged to
          the `doopsgezinde' church. This family has a long background in
          this village and church. However, it appears that only one son,
          Meint, was known about.

          To what extent can we establish a family connection? If we take
          Nico's criteria: the conclusion must remain uncertain: dates are
          fine; place is possible (Oldeboorn to Sneek is not a long distance);
          milieu is unclear because we do not know what the Fokke Ides in Sneek
          had as occupation; names are very clear; for inheritance, nothing
          is known; as to other possible candidates, to date nothing has been
          found. However, the religious continuity should be added as a
          definite criteria, given that the `doopsgezinde' church was a small
          minority of the population in Fryslan. Another argument that might
          be forwarded is to note the early dates of death of Yde Fockes
          (before 1746) and Jitske (Tjiske) Meintes (before 1759); if they
          had a son called Fokke, he may have been obliged to look for work
          elsewhere at a young age. Another issue which can be underlined is
          that as `doopsgezinden', no date of baptism as a infant would exist
          for a Fokke Ydes who may have been born in Oldeboorn in about 1740.

          Any thoughts on this puzzle are welcome!

          Klaas Bylsma (engels, nederlands, frysk)
          Website at: http://kbylsma.bravehost.com/

          --knip--






          Genealogy yn Fryslân: http://www.genealogy-yn-fryslan.tk/.

          Het archief van deze lijst voor Friese genealogen met daarin alle sinds
          8 juli 1999 geposte berichten staat op
          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Friesland-genealogy

          Om uw abonnement te beëindigen stuurt u een (leeg) email-bericht naar:
          Friesland-genealogy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • Nico van der Woude
          Dear Klaas en Jeroen, Thanks for the suggestion to add religion as a criterium. For the record: I do not mention religion. But indeed, if taken into account, I
          Message 4 of 14 , Apr 4, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Klaas en Jeroen,

            Thanks for the suggestion to add religion as a criterium.
            For the record: I do not mention religion. But indeed, if taken into
            account, I probably would consider it to be additional.
            I do understand the meaning and extension of it: if someone is part
            of a small group and the other criteria seem to apply, an
            affiliation is possible. It can be helpfull, that much is certainly
            true.
            However: this is where it starts to become more or less difficult.
            It seems to me, that a more 'scientific' approach might be very
            usefull. One family probably is too small to draw conclusions. One
            has to take an entire population (village, grietenij, province?)
            into account: statistics will be needed: how often does it occur,
            that people merry 'outside their own religion?'
            To make a long story short: in my humble opinion it is not enough to
            state that someone has a certain religion: there is always a (great)
            possibilty that people change their religion, or - more likely -that
            in a group (e.g. a family) there are differences in religious
            background.
            Applied to my own situation (vid. Van aver tot aver): I seriously
            think, that 'the problem' has to do with the fact, that Pieter
            Sierks' first wive, Sytske Hendricx, probably was 'doopsgezind' and
            Pieter not. Maybe that explains why one child has been
            baptized 'hervormd' and the other child was not.
            To add another example: this was certainly the case with the family
            of my direct ancestor Sije Harmens. His wife, Sjoukje Eelkes, almost
            certainly was 'doopsgezind' but most children where baptized.
            However, at least one child was not. In this case I found the
            affiliation in the archives, which brings us back to the beginning
            of our conversation.

            Vriendelijke groeten,

            Nico van der Woude



            --- In Friesland-genealogy@yahoogroups.com, Jeroen Krak
            <jjkrak@p...> wrote:
            > Dear Klaas & Nico,
            >
            > I tend to agree with the suggestion to add religion as a separate
            > criterium, even to the extend considering it as one of the main
            > important criteria. My understanding from Nico's criteria is that
            he has
            > incorporated it as additional evidence but indeed there is reason
            to
            > consider it more important than only additional.
            >
            > Another thought crossed my mind. There is a big difference between
            > linking a person with a child known by name to another known
            person in
            > ones own ancestry with the same name as this known child, or
            linking a
            > person in ones own ancestry to a possible parent with no direct
            > knowledge of known children of this person. One could call such a
            > criterium for instance "first name-family name-match", better
            > suggestions welcomed.
            >
            > Introducing the above two criteria possibly strengthens the
            outcome of
            > the evaluation of the likeliness of affiliation.
            >
            > Vriendelijke groeten,
            >
            > Jeroen Krak
            > Doetinchem
            > http://www.krak-family.nl
            >
            >
            > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
            > Van: kbylsma1 [mailto:kbylsma@s...]
            > Verzonden: maandag 4 april 2005 17:02
            > Aan: Friesland-genealogy@yahoogroups.com
            > Onderwerp: [Friesland-genealogy] Re: Crack-probleem: ervaren
            genealogen
            > advies gevraagd!
            >
            >
            >
            > Beste medespeurders:
            >
            > I followed the interesting discussion regarding how certain we
            can
            > be in making family connections. Nico's criteria seem to be quite
            > useful. I am wondering if religious affiliation might also be
            added
            > among relevant criteria.
            >
            > I will relate a similar situation which has pre-occupied me for a
            few
            > years. Other genealogists such as Sjirk Dijkstra and Hans Bottema
            > have also helped in trying to resolve my puzzle.
            >
            > My ancestor, Jitske Fokkes, was a member of the `doopsgezinde'
            church
            > in Joure; she married Tjebbe Watzes Dijkstra on April 11, 1802,
            and
            > died in Broek, Doniawerstal, on January 15, 1850. At the time of
            > death, no family name is given but by tradition, it was believed
            that
            > her family name was Idema. It is known that her brother was Yede
            > Fokkes Yedema from Joure; Sjirk Dijkstra unearthed a contract
            > between him and his brother-in-law Tjebbe Watzes Dijkstra. He
            also
            > found a marriage in Sneek between a Fokke Ides and Hinke (?) and a
            > date of birth in Sneek for Jitske Fokkes, their daughter.
            >
            > My puzzle was the origin of the Fokke Ides, who was the father of
            > Jitske Fokkes. After much search on the Internet, I came upon
            likely
            > parentage in Oldeboorn. See my website under Idema:
            > http://kbylsma.bravehost.com/ . I found a Yde Fockes married to
            a
            > Jitske (Tjiske) Meintes in 1739 in Oldeboorn, who also belonged to
            > the `doopsgezinde' church. This family has a long background in
            > this village and church. However, it appears that only one son,
            > Meint, was known about.
            >
            > To what extent can we establish a family connection? If we take
            > Nico's criteria: the conclusion must remain uncertain: dates are
            > fine; place is possible (Oldeboorn to Sneek is not a long
            distance);
            > milieu is unclear because we do not know what the Fokke Ides in
            Sneek
            > had as occupation; names are very clear; for inheritance,
            nothing
            > is known; as to other possible candidates, to date nothing has
            been
            > found. However, the religious continuity should be added as a
            > definite criteria, given that the `doopsgezinde' church was a
            small
            > minority of the population in Fryslan. Another argument that
            might
            > be forwarded is to note the early dates of death of Yde Fockes
            > (before 1746) and Jitske (Tjiske) Meintes (before 1759); if they
            > had a son called Fokke, he may have been obliged to look for work
            > elsewhere at a young age. Another issue which can be underlined
            is
            > that as `doopsgezinden', no date of baptism as a infant would
            exist
            > for a Fokke Ydes who may have been born in Oldeboorn in about
            1740.
            >
            > Any thoughts on this puzzle are welcome!
            >
            > Klaas Bylsma (engels, nederlands, frysk)
            > Website at: http://kbylsma.bravehost.com/
            >
            > --knip--
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Genealogy yn Fryslân: http://www.genealogy-yn-fryslan.tk/.
            >
            > Het archief van deze lijst voor Friese genealogen met daarin alle
            sinds
            > 8 juli 1999 geposte berichten staat op
            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Friesland-genealogy
            >
            > Om uw abonnement te beëindigen stuurt u een (leeg) email-bericht
            naar:
            > Friesland-genealogy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
          • Jeroen Krak
            Nico (+ Klaas & anderen), Als we binnen de Friesland groep inventariseren hoe dit voor andere stamreeksen is, kunnen we wellicht (op basis van deze grotere
            Message 5 of 14 , Apr 4, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              Nico (+ Klaas & anderen),

              Als we binnen de Friesland groep inventariseren hoe dit voor andere
              stamreeksen is, kunnen we wellicht (op basis van deze grotere
              steekproef) een eerste fundament leggen voor de mate waarin overeenkomst
              van religie in bijvoorbeeld stamreeksen in de tijd gezien hetzelfde
              blijft. Als ik bijvoorbeeld mijn eigen stamreeks als uitgangspunt neem,
              dan zie ik in de periode tussen 1670/1700 en 1850 geen wisseling van
              religie in deze stamreeks. En dan praat je toch over 150-200 jaar!

              Mocht blijken dat bij velen binnen de groep de religie in de stamreeks
              weinig of niet wijzigt, dan zou hiermee het punt van Klaas aan kracht
              winnen en zich daarmee wellicht toch kwalificeren als een harder element
              van de bewijsvoering. Ik ben wel met je eens dat het alleen kan gelden
              in combinatie met de andere criteria, maar dat geldt natuurlijk voor de
              rest ook.

              Vriendelijke groeten,

              Jeroen Krak
              Doetinchem
              http://www.krak-family.nl


              -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
              Van: Nico van der Woude [mailto:woudwise@...]
              Verzonden: maandag 4 april 2005 21:55
              Aan: Friesland-genealogy@yahoogroups.com
              Onderwerp: [Friesland-genealogy] Re: Crack-probleem: ervaren genealogen
              advies gevraagd!



              Dear Klaas en Jeroen,

              Thanks for the suggestion to add religion as a criterium.
              For the record: I do not mention religion. But indeed, if taken into
              account, I probably would consider it to be additional.
              I do understand the meaning and extension of it: if someone is part
              of a small group and the other criteria seem to apply, an
              affiliation is possible. It can be helpfull, that much is certainly
              true.
              However: this is where it starts to become more or less difficult.
              It seems to me, that a more 'scientific' approach might be very
              usefull. One family probably is too small to draw conclusions. One
              has to take an entire population (village, grietenij, province?)
              into account: statistics will be needed: how often does it occur,
              that people merry 'outside their own religion?'
              To make a long story short: in my humble opinion it is not enough to
              state that someone has a certain religion: there is always a (great)
              possibilty that people change their religion, or - more likely -that
              in a group (e.g. a family) there are differences in religious
              background.
              Applied to my own situation (vid. Van aver tot aver): I seriously
              think, that 'the problem' has to do with the fact, that Pieter
              Sierks' first wive, Sytske Hendricx, probably was 'doopsgezind' and
              Pieter not. Maybe that explains why one child has been
              baptized 'hervormd' and the other child was not.
              To add another example: this was certainly the case with the family
              of my direct ancestor Sije Harmens. His wife, Sjoukje Eelkes, almost
              certainly was 'doopsgezind' but most children where baptized.
              However, at least one child was not. In this case I found the
              affiliation in the archives, which brings us back to the beginning
              of our conversation.

              Vriendelijke groeten,

              Nico van der Woude



              --- In Friesland-genealogy@yahoogroups.com, Jeroen Krak
              <jjkrak@p...> wrote:
              > Dear Klaas & Nico,
              >
              > I tend to agree with the suggestion to add religion as a separate
              > criterium, even to the extend considering it as one of the main
              > important criteria. My understanding from Nico's criteria is that
              he has
              > incorporated it as additional evidence but indeed there is reason
              to
              > consider it more important than only additional.
              >
              > Another thought crossed my mind. There is a big difference between
              > linking a person with a child known by name to another known
              person in
              > ones own ancestry with the same name as this known child, or
              linking a
              > person in ones own ancestry to a possible parent with no direct
              > knowledge of known children of this person. One could call such a
              > criterium for instance "first name-family name-match", better
              > suggestions welcomed.
              >
              > Introducing the above two criteria possibly strengthens the
              outcome of
              > the evaluation of the likeliness of affiliation.
              >
              > Vriendelijke groeten,
              >
              > Jeroen Krak
              > Doetinchem
              > http://www.krak-family.nl
              >
              >
              > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
              > Van: kbylsma1 [mailto:kbylsma@s...]
              > Verzonden: maandag 4 april 2005 17:02
              > Aan: Friesland-genealogy@yahoogroups.com
              > Onderwerp: [Friesland-genealogy] Re: Crack-probleem: ervaren
              genealogen
              > advies gevraagd!
              >
              >
              >
              > Beste medespeurders:
              >
              > I followed the interesting discussion regarding how certain we
              can
              > be in making family connections. Nico's criteria seem to be quite
              > useful. I am wondering if religious affiliation might also be
              added
              > among relevant criteria.
              >
              > I will relate a similar situation which has pre-occupied me for a
              few
              > years. Other genealogists such as Sjirk Dijkstra and Hans Bottema
              > have also helped in trying to resolve my puzzle.
              >
              > My ancestor, Jitske Fokkes, was a member of the `doopsgezinde'
              church
              > in Joure; she married Tjebbe Watzes Dijkstra on April 11, 1802,
              and
              > died in Broek, Doniawerstal, on January 15, 1850. At the time of
              > death, no family name is given but by tradition, it was believed
              that
              > her family name was Idema. It is known that her brother was Yede
              > Fokkes Yedema from Joure; Sjirk Dijkstra unearthed a contract
              > between him and his brother-in-law Tjebbe Watzes Dijkstra. He
              also
              > found a marriage in Sneek between a Fokke Ides and Hinke (?) and a
              > date of birth in Sneek for Jitske Fokkes, their daughter.
              >
              > My puzzle was the origin of the Fokke Ides, who was the father of
              > Jitske Fokkes. After much search on the Internet, I came upon
              likely
              > parentage in Oldeboorn. See my website under Idema:
              > http://kbylsma.bravehost.com/ . I found a Yde Fockes married to
              a
              > Jitske (Tjiske) Meintes in 1739 in Oldeboorn, who also belonged to
              > the `doopsgezinde' church. This family has a long background in
              > this village and church. However, it appears that only one son,
              > Meint, was known about.
              >
              > To what extent can we establish a family connection? If we take
              > Nico's criteria: the conclusion must remain uncertain: dates are
              > fine; place is possible (Oldeboorn to Sneek is not a long
              distance);
              > milieu is unclear because we do not know what the Fokke Ides in
              Sneek
              > had as occupation; names are very clear; for inheritance,
              nothing
              > is known; as to other possible candidates, to date nothing has
              been
              > found. However, the religious continuity should be added as a
              > definite criteria, given that the `doopsgezinde' church was a
              small
              > minority of the population in Fryslan. Another argument that
              might
              > be forwarded is to note the early dates of death of Yde Fockes
              > (before 1746) and Jitske (Tjiske) Meintes (before 1759); if they
              > had a son called Fokke, he may have been obliged to look for work
              > elsewhere at a young age. Another issue which can be underlined
              is
              > that as `doopsgezinden', no date of baptism as a infant would
              exist
              > for a Fokke Ydes who may have been born in Oldeboorn in about
              1740.
              >
              > Any thoughts on this puzzle are welcome!
              >
              > Klaas Bylsma (engels, nederlands, frysk)
              > Website at: http://kbylsma.bravehost.com/
              >
              > --knip--
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Genealogy yn Fryslân: http://www.genealogy-yn-fryslan.tk/.
              >
              > Het archief van deze lijst voor Friese genealogen met daarin alle
              sinds
              > 8 juli 1999 geposte berichten staat op
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Friesland-genealogy
              >
              > Om uw abonnement te beëindigen stuurt u een (leeg) email-bericht
              naar:
              > Friesland-genealogy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links






              Genealogy yn Fryslân: http://www.genealogy-yn-fryslan.tk/.

              Het archief van deze lijst voor Friese genealogen met daarin alle sinds
              8 juli 1999 geposte berichten staat op
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Friesland-genealogy

              Om uw abonnement te beëindigen stuurt u een (leeg) email-bericht naar:
              Friesland-genealogy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

              Yahoo! Groups Links
            • Walraven Koster
              Allemaal denk ik wel, Gemengde huwelijken zijn zeker oorzaak van wisseling van belijdenis. Zelf zie ik rond achttienhonderd verschillende overgangen, allen
              Message 6 of 14 , Apr 4, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                Allemaal denk ik wel,

                Gemengde huwelijken zijn zeker oorzaak van wisseling van belijdenis.
                Zelf zie ik rond achttienhonderd verschillende overgangen, allen naar
                de dominante stroming in die plaats. In 's Hertogenbosch zie ik van
                oorsprong NG Mirande's katholiek trouwen, met katholiek gedoopte
                kinderen. In Leeuwarden zie ik mijn eigen RK Dorenstouter-lijn
                overgaan naar de NG-kerk. Eerder, in 1676, heb ik de volgende
                aantekening in Kralingen: dopeling: Laurens Jacobsz Hoyer, getrouwd
                man van wederdoopsche ouders, op goede attestatie van de kerk te
                Rotterdam alhier gedoopt.
                Dit zegt nog niet alles: voor zover ik kan zien zijn ze allen in
                gemengde huwelijken. (Volgens Fons Janssen: gemengd verkeerd /
                verkeerd gemengd ) Er is dus een duidelijke reden voor de wissel.

                Walraven Koster



                --- In Friesland-genealogy@yahoogroups.com, Jeroen Krak <jjkrak@p...>
                wrote:
                > Nico (+ Klaas & anderen),
                >
                > Als we binnen de Friesland groep inventariseren hoe dit voor andere
                > stamreeksen is, kunnen we wellicht (op basis van deze grotere
                > steekproef) een eerste fundament leggen voor de mate waarin overeenkomst
                > van religie in bijvoorbeeld stamreeksen in de tijd gezien hetzelfde
                > blijft. Als ik bijvoorbeeld mijn eigen stamreeks als uitgangspunt neem,
                > dan zie ik in de periode tussen 1670/1700 en 1850 geen wisseling van
                > religie in deze stamreeks. En dan praat je toch over 150-200 jaar!
                >
                > Mocht blijken dat bij velen binnen de groep de religie in de stamreeks
                > weinig of niet wijzigt, dan zou hiermee het punt van Klaas aan kracht
                > winnen en zich daarmee wellicht toch kwalificeren als een harder element
                > van de bewijsvoering. Ik ben wel met je eens dat het alleen kan gelden
                > in combinatie met de andere criteria, maar dat geldt natuurlijk voor de
                > rest ook.
                >
                > Vriendelijke groeten,
                >
                > Jeroen Krak
                > Doetinchem
                > http://www.krak-family.nl
                >
                >
                > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
                > Van: Nico van der Woude [mailto:woudwise@h...]
                > Verzonden: maandag 4 april 2005 21:55
                > Aan: Friesland-genealogy@yahoogroups.com
                > Onderwerp: [Friesland-genealogy] Re: Crack-probleem: ervaren genealogen
                > advies gevraagd!
                >
                >
                >
                > Dear Klaas en Jeroen,
                >
                > Thanks for the suggestion to add religion as a criterium.
                > For the record: I do not mention religion. But indeed, if taken into
                > account, I probably would consider it to be additional.
                > I do understand the meaning and extension of it: if someone is part
                > of a small group and the other criteria seem to apply, an
                > affiliation is possible. It can be helpfull, that much is certainly
                > true.
                > However: this is where it starts to become more or less difficult.
                > It seems to me, that a more 'scientific' approach might be very
                > usefull. One family probably is too small to draw conclusions. One
                > has to take an entire population (village, grietenij, province?)
                > into account: statistics will be needed: how often does it occur,
                > that people merry 'outside their own religion?'
                > To make a long story short: in my humble opinion it is not enough to
                > state that someone has a certain religion: there is always a (great)
                > possibilty that people change their religion, or - more likely -that
                > in a group (e.g. a family) there are differences in religious
                > background.
                > Applied to my own situation (vid. Van aver tot aver): I seriously
                > think, that 'the problem' has to do with the fact, that Pieter
                > Sierks' first wive, Sytske Hendricx, probably was 'doopsgezind' and
                > Pieter not. Maybe that explains why one child has been
                > baptized 'hervormd' and the other child was not.
                > To add another example: this was certainly the case with the family
                > of my direct ancestor Sije Harmens. His wife, Sjoukje Eelkes, almost
                > certainly was 'doopsgezind' but most children where baptized.
                > However, at least one child was not. In this case I found the
                > affiliation in the archives, which brings us back to the beginning
                > of our conversation.
                >
                > Vriendelijke groeten,
                >
                > Nico van der Woude
                >
                >
                >8
              • jjkrak@planet.nl
                Nico, Karel, overige lijstgenoten, Naar aanleiding van de recente gedachtenwisseling over bewijsvoering in genealogisch onderzoek heb ik op basis van het
                Message 7 of 14 , Apr 5, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  Nico, Karel, overige lijstgenoten,

                  Naar aanleiding van de recente gedachtenwisseling over bewijsvoering in
                  genealogisch onderzoek heb ik op basis van het verhaal van Nico een
                  korte notitie geschreven. Wellicht voor eenieder interessant,
                  opmerkingen en aanvullingen meer dan welkom.

                  Vriendelijke groet,

                  Jeroen Krak
                  Doetinchem
                  http://www.krak-family.nl


                  ----- Oorspronkelijk bericht -----
                  Van: Walraven Koster <walravenkoster@...>
                  Datum: dinsdag, april 5, 2005 1:48 am
                  Onderwerp: [Friesland-genealogy] Re: Crack-probleem: ervaren genealogen
                  advies gevraagd!

                  >
                  >
                  > Allemaal denk ik wel,
                  >
                  > Gemengde huwelijken zijn zeker oorzaak van wisseling van belijdenis.
                  > Zelf zie ik rond achttienhonderd verschillende overgangen, allen naar
                  > de dominante stroming in die plaats. In 's Hertogenbosch zie ik van
                  > oorsprong NG Mirande's katholiek trouwen, met katholiek gedoopte
                  > kinderen. In Leeuwarden zie ik mijn eigen RK Dorenstouter-lijn
                  > overgaan naar de NG-kerk. Eerder, in 1676, heb ik de volgende
                  > aantekening in Kralingen: dopeling: Laurens Jacobsz Hoyer, getrouwd
                  > man van wederdoopsche ouders, op goede attestatie van de kerk te
                  > Rotterdam alhier gedoopt.
                  > Dit zegt nog niet alles: voor zover ik kan zien zijn ze allen in
                  > gemengde huwelijken. (Volgens Fons Janssen: gemengd verkeerd /
                  > verkeerd gemengd ) Er is dus een duidelijke reden voor de wissel.
                  >
                  > Walraven Koster
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Friesland-genealogy@yahoogroups.com, Jeroen Krak <jjkrak@p...>
                  > wrote:
                  > > Nico (+ Klaas & anderen),
                  > >
                  > > Als we binnen de Friesland groep inventariseren hoe dit voor andere
                  > > stamreeksen is, kunnen we wellicht (op basis van deze grotere
                  > > steekproef) een eerste fundament leggen voor de mate waarin
                  > overeenkomst> van religie in bijvoorbeeld stamreeksen in de tijd
                  > gezien hetzelfde
                  > > blijft. Als ik bijvoorbeeld mijn eigen stamreeks als
                  > uitgangspunt neem,
                  > > dan zie ik in de periode tussen 1670/1700 en 1850 geen wisseling van
                  > > religie in deze stamreeks. En dan praat je toch over 150-200 jaar!
                  > >
                  > > Mocht blijken dat bij velen binnen de groep de religie in de
                  > stamreeks> weinig of niet wijzigt, dan zou hiermee het punt van
                  > Klaas aan kracht
                  > > winnen en zich daarmee wellicht toch kwalificeren als een harder
                  > element> van de bewijsvoering. Ik ben wel met je eens dat het
                  > alleen kan gelden
                  > > in combinatie met de andere criteria, maar dat geldt natuurlijk
                  > voor de
                  > > rest ook.
                  > >
                  > > Vriendelijke groeten,
                  > >
                  > > Jeroen Krak
                  > > Doetinchem
                  > > http://www.krak-family.nl
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
                  > > Van: Nico van der Woude [mailto:woudwise@h...]
                  > > Verzonden: maandag 4 april 2005 21:55
                  > > Aan: Friesland-genealogy@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Onderwerp: [Friesland-genealogy] Re: Crack-probleem: ervaren
                  > genealogen> advies gevraagd!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Dear Klaas en Jeroen,
                  > >
                  > > Thanks for the suggestion to add religion as a criterium.
                  > > For the record: I do not mention religion. But indeed, if taken
                  > into
                  > > account, I probably would consider it to be additional.
                  > > I do understand the meaning and extension of it: if someone is
                  > part
                  > > of a small group and the other criteria seem to apply, an
                  > > affiliation is possible. It can be helpfull, that much is
                  > certainly
                  > > true.
                  > > However: this is where it starts to become more or less
                  > difficult.
                  > > It seems to me, that a more 'scientific' approach might be very
                  > > usefull. One family probably is too small to draw conclusions.
                  > One
                  > > has to take an entire population (village, grietenij, province?)
                  > > into account: statistics will be needed: how often does it
                  > occur,
                  > > that people merry 'outside their own religion?'
                  > > To make a long story short: in my humble opinion it is not
                  > enough to
                  > > state that someone has a certain religion: there is always a
                  > (great)
                  > > possibilty that people change their religion, or - more likely -
                  > that
                  > > in a group (e.g. a family) there are differences in religious
                  > > background.
                  > > Applied to my own situation (vid. Van aver tot aver): I
                  > seriously
                  > > think, that 'the problem' has to do with the fact, that Pieter
                  > > Sierks' first wive, Sytske Hendricx, probably was 'doopsgezind'
                  > and
                  > > Pieter not. Maybe that explains why one child has been
                  > > baptized 'hervormd' and the other child was not.
                  > > To add another example: this was certainly the case with the
                  > family
                  > > of my direct ancestor Sije Harmens. His wife, Sjoukje Eelkes,
                  > almost
                  > > certainly was 'doopsgezind' but most children where baptized.
                  > > However, at least one child was not. In this case I found the
                  > > affiliation in the archives, which brings us back to the
                  > beginning
                  > > of our conversation.
                  > >
                  > > Vriendelijke groeten,
                  > >
                  > > Nico van der Woude
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >8
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
                  > ~-->
                  > Give underprivileged students the materials they need to learn.
                  > Bring education to life by funding a specific classroom project.
                  > http://us.click.yahoo.com/S_B0zD/_WnJAA/a8ILAA/FvNolB/TM
                  > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > -~->
                  >
                  > Genealogy yn Fryslân: http://www.genealogy-yn-fryslan.tk/.
                  >
                  > Het archief van deze lijst voor Friese genealogen met daarin alle
                  > sinds 8 juli 1999 geposte berichten staat op
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Friesland-genealogy
                  >
                  > Om uw abonnement te beëindigen stuurt u een (leeg) email-bericht naar:
                  > Friesland-genealogy-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Klaas Bylsma
                  To all: It appears to me that the emphasis on situations where people in a possible family tree changed religion or were involved in mixed marriages is
                  Message 8 of 14 , Apr 5, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    To all:

                    It appears to me that the emphasis on situations where people in a
                    possible family tree changed religion or were involved in mixed
                    marriages is misplaced. I agree that in such situations, it does not
                    add to the claim of a possible connection. The emphasis should be on
                    when religion remained the same. In Jeroen's cited case as well as my
                    case involving Jitske Fokkes, the religion remained the same. In such
                    cases, the claim of a possible connection is strengthened. Especially
                    if the cases involve minority religions like 'doopgezinden' or Roman
                    Catholics. Responses in Dutch are fine!!

                    Klaas Bylsma (engels, nederlands, frysk)
                    Website at: http://kbylsma.bravehost.com/

                    --knip--
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.