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5467Fw: update on my "2009 American Community (Census) Survey" plea for reasonable input

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  • Pat Wagner
    Dec 12, 2009
    • 0 Attachment
      
      To All:
      Since I started this frickin fiasco, re: the Census Bureau's 2009 American Community Survey (ACS), I'll now jump in, defending, offering & substantiating my observations, analysis, and/or conclusions.
       
      For the record, so no one is confused with the ACS and the authentic Census form, the latter, which will consist  of 10 questions, is to be mailed out sometime in March, 2010.  The ACS has nothing to do with the authentic Census form.
       
      I'm not disagreeing with Bob M.., Lynda @ Paycheck Piracy, Ralph, Walt, or any others who want to take a 'frontal assault' position if they receive the ACS, or have a personal confrontation with a Census officer.  I, possibly, might take the same approach, depending on my mood that specific day. 
       
      I do not take invasion of my privacy, lightly.  For those of you who know nothing about me, personally, I'll briefly note... I've been surrounded by armed guv thugs, several times, who broke into my home & held me captive for nearly 6-7 hours while doing an illegal search.  To make a long story real short, I held my ground.  On one occasion, when the local cops came pounding on my door, at midnight, shining flashlights in my windows & yelling for me to open the door, I informed them, via telephone, if they tried to enter my home, someone was going to get hurt.  With that communication being recorded, they promptly left; however, the local goons were back the next morning with the armed fed goon swat team, dressed in their masks & black flack jacket outfits.  Thus, with those experiences under my belt, I have my own personal strategy on how I'll handle the ACS, Census officer, or Census form, when it appears in my mailbox, or doorstep.  However, that's not what I encourage the persons to do, who asked me for help, re: the ACS.  That is why I initiated inquiry regarding this survey.
       
      Although, many have their personal ideas on what they will do, if confronted, with this survey,  Census officer, or Census form, that wasn't the initial purpose in asking for input.  So, please, read carefully and don't jump to conclusions, or second-guess me on what I'm trying to do to help others, especially, if I can keep them out of trouble when they don't know what they're doing, or want some options/choices.
       
      I fully understand, if one doesn't fill out the survey, nothing may ever happen to that person, however, that's not guaranteed in this day & age.  I've never filed a Census form, either, but I'm certainly not going to endorse that kind of inaction if the person has no clue on what may happen to him/her for noncompliance.  One should know all of the ramifications when saying, 'NO,' to guv entities.  DO NOT JUMP INTO THE DEEP END OF THE POOL IF YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO SWIM.  Unfortunately, when the 'life raft' is deployed by the guv goons, you may wish you had drowned!!!   
       
      There are, still, other sources I've not heard from in order to complete some of my research re: this survey questionnaire.  Therefore, if I receive other substantive suggestions, input, or legal analysis, I will pass it on to those of you who wish to receive it. 
       
      I emailed copies of the ACS to 4 lawyers.... only one replied.  That was Jeff Dickstein.  I appreciate, very much, him taking the time to answer my email.  Even though some may disagree with what he wrote, that's not the issue.  What I'm trying to do is, present several approaches on how to handle the ACS, hoping, I'll be able to cover several strategies one might want to select.  (if you did not receive a copy of the ACS, which has been entered in MicroSoft Word, let me know & I'll forward a copy.)
       
      The persons in the Clearwater/Largo/St Pete, Fla, areas, who received the ACS, so far, are the only locations I've heard from.  I've not received any reports from anyone, in Ohio, which is where I'm, currently, living.  On the last page of the ACS instructions, it states: 
       
      "Your address was scientifically selected to represent a cross section of other households in your community.  Households in the sample are required to complete the survey form.  Please return it in the postage-paid envelope as soon as possible."
       
      One of the 'households' who received this survey, at the end of November, had a letter enclosed, stating, the Census Bureau, "recently sent a letter to your household about the American Community Survey."  Thus, I surmise, the initial mailing of this survey was done, possibly, in the summer, or early fall.  This specific 'household' didn't arrive, in Largo, until early November.
       
      The letter, further states, "The U.S. Census Bureau chose your address, not you personally, as part of a randomly selected sample.  Your are required by U.S. law to respond to this survey. The Census Bureau is required by U.S. law to keep your answers confidential."  Thus, it appears only certain areas of the country are being targeted with this survey.
       
      Now, for my observation, analysis & partial conclusion of how this survey should be handled.
       
      1.  I notice there isn't any deadline, or time-frame for returning this survey, other than mailing "it back as soon as possible in the postage-paid envelope."  With that in mind, how would one define, "as soon as possible?"  Each & every person has their own timeline when it comes to responding, "as soon as possible."  Priorities dictate.  If a boss tells the worker to perform a certain task "as soon as possible," then the worker should know what that entails & when the task needs to be fulfilled.  On the other hand, if one is told to return a document, that has no date, signature, or mandatory time-frame to respond, then "as soon as possible" may be interpreted by the recipient as whenever they get a chance to complete the document.  If the document, inadvertently, gets thrown in the trash, or lost, or destroyed, then unfortunately, it couldn't be answered "as soon as possible."  
       
      2.  The ACS was sent to 'households' by 1st class, U.S.Postal Service (USPS).  This type of mailing is very insecure, unreliable and, definitely, doesn't stand up in court as 'proof of mailing.'  I'm not sure what the statistics are on the USPS losing 1st class mail, even certified, but if one never received this ACS, its return is a non-issue, i.e., moot, having no practical significance. 
       
      3.  On the last page of the survey questionnaire, it states: 
       

      “The Census Bureau estimates that, for the average household, this form will take 38 minutes to complete, including the time for reviewing the instructions and answers.  Send comments regarding this burden estimate or any other aspect of this collection of information, including suggestions for reducing this burden, to: Paperwork project 0607-0810, U.S. Census Bur3au, 4600 Silver Hill Road, AMSD – 3K138, Washington, D.C. 20233.  You may e-mail comments to Paperwork @...; use “Paperwork Project 0607-0810” as the subject.  Please DO NOT RETURN your questionnaire to this address. Use the enclosed preaddressed envelope to return your completed questionnaire. 

       

      Respondents are not required to respond to any information collection unless it displays a valid approval number from the Office of Management and Budget.  This 8-digit number appears in the bottom right on the front cover of this form. Form ACS-1(2009)KFI(05-22-2008)"

       

      If one wants to get dead serious on challenging this ACS form, then I'd suggest drafting up a letter to the above "Paperwork project" address, asking a ton of questions on explaining the law (13 USC 141, 193 & 221) requiring the filing of this form; the legislative history; the regulations implementing this form; why criminal and/or civil penalties were enacted into this legislation; or, why innocent, unknowledgeable Americans could be prosecuted and/or fined for not answering questions, or filing this form.  Be creative.  Ask as many logical questions as possible.  Then, send a copy to your elected representative, both state and federal.  This type of 'pro-active' communication may put you on 'their' radar but it certainly shouldn't target you for a criminal, or civil violation until all questions are answered to your satisfaction.  As I mentioned in my first email concerning the survey, the document does show an OMB #0607-0810, Form ACS-1(2009)KFI (05-22-2008).   

       

      4. If anyone took time to review the questions, posed in the survey, one may conclude they aren't intrusive, or in violation of their privacy.  If that's the case, then, those individuals shouldn't have any problem in complying with the survey.  Since the questions mainly have to do with location, personal information re: health insurance, income, utility usage, education, marital status, employer/employee info, race, ad infinitum, one's answers may not be entirely accurate if one cannot determine the adequate/correct answer.  For instance, one may use the famous government verbiage, 'I don't know, or don't recall,' whichever fits the question.

       

      5.  There is one question, on page 8, of the survey, that disturbs me, however, it's due to my paralegal background that causes me to seriously protest this question.  It states: "Is this person a citizen of the United States."  I know many lawyers may disagree with me on this, however, I would have to answer that question as, "No, not a U..S. citizen." Since, I've had this argument pertaining to an ATF & voter's registration forms, I'm well versed on how to approach it.  On both, I won. To clarify winning, I mean I won with the ATF & voter registration agencies, not in court..  I refused to sign, under penalties of perjury, I was a 'U.S. citizen,' thus, I penned in I was a native born American.  I cited the case in regards to that specific subject.  The ATF backed off and I received my voter registration.  Again, I don't recommend doing this if one isn't knowledgeable about this specific position.  

       

      6.  Last, but definitely not least, there is the 'religious belief' defense.  If one will notice in Jeff Dickstein's reply, where he references 13 USC 221(c) where it states:             

      (c) Notwithstanding any other provision of this title, no person shall be compelled to disclose information relative to his religious beliefs or to membership in a religious body.

      This section would have to be studied, thoroughly, if one wanted to use this argument.  I interpret it as only questions pertaining to one's 'religious beliefs' do not have to be answered; I don't think one could refuse to answer the entire questionnaire based on their 'religious beliefs.' However, the Amish have won many fed cases based on their religious beliefs... so, if one feels this type of questionnaire is connected to some kind of evil being, or satanic work, then, who knows, what could be accomplished.  After all, the entire government, in this day and age, are looking very evil to many Americans.  So, depending on how one could establish the foundation for this type of argument, using this section, is up for grabs.

       

      Also, take heed, on what Jeff shows in several court cases where defendants "who had participated in a census resistance movement, publicizing a dissident view of census as an unconstitutional invasion of privacy, was prosecuted with three others for refusing to answer questions on census form.....". This could be hazardous to one's health, safety & welfare if they intend on taking this position.  However, if 'selective prosecution' can be proved, the defendant may prevail.  Check the court cases Jeff referenced.

       

      That concludes my partial recommendations, at this time.  Again, everyone has their own way of doing whatever they feel necessary on how they approach their own situation if this ACS is mailed to them, or a Census officer appears on their doorstep.  I'm only trying to help innocent victims who may be recipients of this piece of garbage. 

       

      Again, I continue to repeat, without being redundant, I'm only interested in trying to provide logical, rational & reasonable answers to individuals who may not take the same position as some of us who might find this survey in our mailbox.  I'm asking for your help, input & ideas.  Be nice, kind, considerate and reasonable in helping your fellow American.  That's all I ask.

       

      Below is most of the email communications I've received re: the ACS.  I've not deleted anything from anyone's emails, other than 'bleeping' out some expletives some people may not want to read.  I apologize if anyone is offended by anyone's answer.   

       

      Thank you, pat wagner

       

       

       
      Bob Minarik wrote:
       
       Ben - I too don't believe in frontal assaults, but its past time when we stop having guns in our home because we fear a city or county ordinance or submit because we are being told we have to answer questions to some piece of shit that comes to our door and says "Its the law!"  
           F*%k Hurt and his weasel a*% approach to defense of liberty.   We aren't winning in the ballot box or in the jury box.   We have to stand our ground and not wuss out.  We gotta grow some balls, big time and quickly.  
           I don't want to hear pussy talk or call your congressman horse s*%t.  Those days are over, but that is the tone I get from your e-mail.
           Read the quote from AS again!!!!!   I will not dig my own grave unless I plan to use it to bury the sons of bitches who think they will bury me.   
           And you can start with a rebirth of you Texans.   You need to get back your hunger.  You need to strap on your guns.  You need to unzip your pants.  Then if you can't eat it or f*%k it, you need to shoot it dead, dead, dead!!!!!!
             <:) bob
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 3:14 PM
      Subject: Re: "I'M SAYIN NO to the 2009 American Community (Census) Survey"

      I have never given more than the number of people in the household, which is only legitimate question they may ask.  So far, no repercussions.  Simply don't answer the door if they come around.  Or, let them read you your rights when you refuse, which includes the right to remain silent.
       
      Hurt is correct, though.  Legal-illegal, moral-immoral, constitutional-unconstitutional, right-wrong don 't matter when it comes to government enforcers. You must be prepared for harsh treatment, even if you are eventually exonerated.
       
      I no longer believe in frontal assaults against the system.  It only produces needless casualties, provides propaganda against you and your cause, and generally ends with more public support for those in power. Look to Ruby Ridge and Waco as examples. I prefer guerrilla or passive aggressive tactics
       

      Don’t believe them, don’t fear them, don’t ask anything of them.” – Alexander Solzhenitsyn

      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 10:33 AM
      Subject: "I'M SAYIN NO to the 2009 American Community (Census) Survey"

             Bob Hurt you're an idiot!!!!!  There is nothing "lawful" about forcing submission to any threat that commands you to divulge, under criminal penalty, personal information about yourself that is no one else's business but yours.   
             To top it off, you suggest that folks who followed my suggestion to resist submission could "sue Minarik" for expressing my position to grow some cajonies and challenge this piece of crap threat!!  
             Bob Hurt, you are not just an idiot, you are a frickin idiot - a self proclaimed "lawman" who doesn't even understand the foundations of liberty, nor Solzhenitsyn's admonition to proffer resistance to tyranny before its too late.
             Every nation going into slavery had men like you, who gained people's trust and then convinced them to tow the party line and further undermine those who advocated even simple resistance.
             bob minarik - rochester indiana - rlmpfl9065@... 
             
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 12:13 PM
      Subject: Re: "I'M SAYIN NO to the 2009 American Community (Census) Survey"

      Thank you Walt!!  Great hearing from you!!  You have probably been in the patriot movement as long as I -  I am in my 40th year out of 65.  Lot of water under the bridge.   <:) <:) <:) bob
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 11:50 AM
      Subject: Re: "I'M SAYIN NO to the 2009 American Community (Census) Survey"
       



      Bob....I'm glad we still have people like you.....Walt Myers

      From: Bob Hurt [mailto:bob@...]
      Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 10:04 PM
      To: 'Bob Minarik'; 'patwagner'
      Cc: 'BobJ'; 'Chuck McFarland'; 'Connie'; 'Davis Mauldin'; 'Don McPherson'; 'Fred Smart'; 'Jeff Bowman'; 'joect'; 'John Voss'; 'judson morris'; 'Kathy'; 'Larry Becraft'; 'Paralegals'; 'Peggy Christensen'; 'Rose Lear'; 'Tom Cryer'; 'Walt'; 'Jeff Dickstein'
      Subject: RE: I'M SAYIN NO to the 2009 American Community (Census) Survey

       See attached Public Servant Questionnaire (PSQ).  As with all information gathering forms, the Administrative Procedures Act applies.   You might conditionally answer the questions, after the census taker fills in and signs your PSQ.   

       But I agree with Jeff Dickstein.  You ought to decide how you want to spend your life before you try to foil or impede the census takers. Lying or refusingl to answer lawful questions can result in serious penalties.  So can a refusal to answer unlawful questions.  You might (but I doubt it) win a court case when disputing the apparent invasion of your privacy, AFTER you get out of jail from your conviction for contempt for violating the order to obey 13 USC 221, IF you have a job, house, spouse, car, or any assets left.

       You might then sue Minarik for convincing you not to answer the census questions, OR (as he put it) to “SCREW them….

      -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      BobHurtSuit200707smallBob Hurt
      2460 Persian Drive #70
      Clearwater, FL 33763
      +1 (727) 669-5511
      Donate to my Law Scholarship fund
      Learn civil litigation with Jurisdictionary
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      Save Fuel

      -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

        
      ----- Original Message -----
      To: ralph
      Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 3:41 PM
      Subject: Re: "I'M SAYIN NO to the 2009 American Community (Census) Survey"

      Hahahahahahahahaha!!!  You are alright Ralph!!   I will pass it along!!  <:) bob
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: ralph
      Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2009 12:58 PM
      Subject: Re: "I'M SAYIN NO to the 2009 American Community (Census) Survey"

      I've never filled out the forms. Amazin' I ain't in jail for my heinous inaction over all those decades.

      At some point a census taker then appears on my porch to "take" a census.  I then tell the census taker how many people live in the house, further explain that none are Indians, taxed or not, and that none of the occupants are bound to servitude for life.  When they attempt to pose additional questions I just explain that they have no lawful basis to pose them, thank them for their service to the country for taking the census and gently close the door.

      The last time the census taker was a little old lady. Seventy five if she was a day, 90 pounds soaking wet..  To the above statement I added, "Hope you can forgive my frank language, Ma'am, but the rest of it is just none of the government's damn business." 

      She extended her hand to shake mine and said, "Thank you, sir.  This country badly needs a whole lot more men just like you!" 

      And off she went to the next house, leaving me with my mouth hanging open.

      Life sometimes surprises me.  Once in a while, quite pleasantly!  

      You may pass this little census story along as you see fit.  I sure wouldn't want you to be sued alone ;-)

      Ralph

      From: Bob Hurt [mailto:bob@...]
      Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2009 10:04 PM
      To: 'Bob Minarik'; 'patwagner'
      Cc: 'BobJ'; 'Chuck McFarland'; 'Connie'; 'Davis Mauldin'; 'Don McPherson'; 'Fred Smart'; 'Jeff Bowman'; 'joect'; 'John Voss'; 'judson morris'; 'Kathy'; 'Larry Becraft'; 'Paralegals'; 'Peggy Christensen'; 'Rose Lear'; 'Tom Cryer'; 'Walt'; 'Jeff Dickstein'
      Subject: RE: I'M SAYIN NO to the 2009 American Community (Census) Survey

      See attached Public Servant Questionnaire (PSQ).  As with all information gathering forms, the Administrative Procedures Act applies.   You might conditionally answer the questions, after the census taker fills in and signs your PSQ.   

      But I agree with Jeff Dickstein.  You ought to decide how you want to spend your life before you try to foil or impede the census takers. Lying or refusingl to answer lawful questions can result in serious penalties.  So can a refusal to answer unlawful questions.  You might (but I doubt it) win a court case when disputing the apparent invasion of your privacy, AFTER you get out of jail from your conviction for contempt for violating the order to obey 13 USC 221, IF you have a job, house, spouse, car, or any assets left.

      You might then sue Minarik for convincing you not to answer the census questions, OR (as he put it) to “SCREW them….

      -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      <!--[if !vml]-->BobHurtSuit200707small<!--[endif]-->Bob Hurt
      2460 Persian Drive #70
      Clearwater, FL 33763
      +1 (727) 669-5511
      Donate to my Law Scholarship fund
      Learn civil litigation with Jurisdictionary
      Subscribe to  Lawmen Newsletter FREE
      Download Files FREE from the Lawmen Archive
      Improve your financial fortunes with GetZooks!
      Save Fuel

      -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

      From: Bob Minarik [mailto:rlmpfl9065@...]
      Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 1:52 PM
      To: patwagner
      Cc: BobHurt; BobJ; Chuck McFarland; Connie; Davis Mauldin; Don McPherson; Fred Smart; Jeff Bowman; joect; John Voss; judson morris; Kathy; Larry Becraft; Paralegals; Peggy Christensen; Rose Lear; Tom Cryer; Walt; Jeff Dickstein
      Subject: I'M SAYIN NO to the 2009 American Community (Census) Survey

      Pat -  With all due respect to Jeff,  I say SCREW them census bastiches!!!   If we don't have the cahonies to stand up and not answer questions on a invasive privacy encroaching census form that will be used to further undermine our liberty, then we won't have the cahonies to stand in the gap when the storm troopers come after our neighbors and family.  

              I have NO intention of responding to any question on any census form - Period!!!  I will courteously tell whoever makes inquiry I will claim the guarantees of my rights under the Bill of Rights of the Constitution for the United States of America and the Constitution for the State of Indiana and to please leave my property immediately!! 

             I will remember the three basic rules of survival to keep my mouth shut, not say anything and SHUT UP!

             If they show up at my door and don't leave upon my order, I will call 911 and swear out a complaint for criminal trespass. 

             I will remember and reflect on the words of Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn who wrote:

      "And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say goodbye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling in terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand. The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst; the cursed machine would have ground to a halt!" ~ The Gulag Archipelago, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

           I will not submit to this bullshit!!  I am gonna grow bigger cajonies so when the time comes that I really need to use them, I will be ready!!   

           >:) >:) >:) bob minarik  - rlmpfl9065@...

      ----- Original Message -----

      From: Pat Wagner

      Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 12:26 PM

      Subject: Fw: 2009 American Community (Census) Survey

      To All:

      Here's an answer I received from Jeff Dickstein, attorney, re: the Census Survey.  Take great heed on what he writes.

      Although, you may disagree with his observation/opinion, remember, you will be dealing with the 'powers-that-be' if you refuse to answer the survey.  Jeff goes into detail on pointing this out.  Just like any other controversial subject, when it comes to guv entities, you must make up your mind on whether you want to sacrifice your time, effort, energy, liberty and/or property..  It will take much time preparing and doing some extensive research to build your argument/case/foundation if you refuse to comply, or provide 'off-the-wall' answers.  This is crucial, even for this kind of 'Mickey Mouse' form, since it carries civil and criminal penalties..  The choice is yours. 

      pat

      ----- Original Message -----

      Sent: Monday, December 07, 2009 11:22 AM

      Subject: Re: 2009 American Community (Census) Survey

      Wow, de jure and de facto. I'm certain those you might write to with these questions will spend hundreds of hours doing their research to provide you with an answer, and since you asked the questions, you will receive the full protection of the law!!! NOT

      The issue is simple. The government thinks they are entitled to the answers. You decide, for whatever moral or eithcal grounds you have, that you will answer or not. If you chose not to answer, be prepared to pay the price.

      $100  per question if you don't answer; $500 per each question if you answer falsely. 13 U.S.C. Section 221

      The penalty is per criminal law; the government files an indictment or information; you defend in federal district court.

      (a) Whoever, being over eighteen years of age, refuses or willfully neglects, when requested by the Secretary, or by any other authorized officer or employee of the Department of Commerce or bureau or agency thereof acting under the instructions of the Secretary or authorized officer, to answer, to the best of his knowledge, any of the questions on any schedule submitted to him in connection with any census or survey provided for by subchapters I, II, IV, and V of chapter 5 of this title, applying to himself or to the family to which he belongs or is related, or to the farm or farms of which he or his family is the occupant, shall be fined not more than $100.

      (b) Whoever, when answering questions described in subsection (a) of this section, and under the conditions or circumstances described in such subsection, willfully gives any answer that is false, shall be fined not more than $500.

      (c) Notwithstanding any other provision of this title, no person shall be compelled to disclose information relative to his religious beliefs or to membership in a religious body.

      1. Constitutionality

      Provision of this section making it offense for person over 18 to refuse or willfully neglect to answer any question on any schedule submitted to him in connection with any census was not rendered unconstitutionally vague and indefinite because of need to refer to other sections in order to determine census required. U.S. v. Little, D.C.Del.1971, 321 F..Supp. 388. Census Key Number Symbol2

      2. Number of violations

      Under this section making it an offense to refuse or wilfully neglect to answer any questions on schedule submitted in connection with any census, a refusal or wilful neglect to answer any question on any schedule submitted would constitute a violation and there could be a separate violation for each unanswered question. U.S. v. Little, D.C.Del.1970, 317 F.Supp. 1308. Census Key Number Symbol5

      3. Indictment or information

      Information specifying by number questions on census schedule which defendant allegedly refused to answer on request and designating schedule of 1970 census submitted to defendant was sufficient to inform defendant that he was charged with refusal to answer specified census questions. U.S. v. Little, D.C..Del.1971, 321 F.Supp. 388. Census Key Number Symbol5

      Indictment sufficiently charged defendant, who allegedly refused to answer questions on schedule submitted to him in connection with census questions on household questionnaire for 1960 population census and housing, with offense within this section, providing penalty for refusal to answer questions on schedule submitted in connection with census. U.S. v. Rickenbacker, S.D.N.Y.1961, 197 F.Supp. 924, affirmed 309 F.2d 462, certiorari denied 83 S.Ct. 542, 371 U.S. 962, 9 L.Ed.2d 509.

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