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Re: [FraDiavolo] Itrani Films - VAULT ALERT!!!!!

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  • marie saccoccio
    LOL My recollection of it was that it was rather boring but informative. I should pay more attention next time. Linda Peloquin
    Message 1 of 14 , Mar 11, 2008
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      LOL  My recollection of it was that it was rather boring but informative.  I should pay more attention next time.   

      Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@...> wrote:
      Marie,

      It was run several times just a couple of weeks ago...guess you missed it.  Both WGBH, Boston and WSBE, RI ran it a couple of times each.  On those days they ran it during normal evening hours & then repeated it during the red eye hours.  I know 'cause I zonked trying to stay awake watching it, woke up and it was still on so I finished watching the program thinking I'd only missed a few minutes.  Only later did I realize that when I had woken-up , what I woke-up during was the second showing of the night during the red eye hours.  I was mightily disoriented that night after my two installment sleep delayed viewing of the show and needed a caffeine IV the next day!!!

      Linda

      marie saccoccio <saccocciom@yahoo. com> wrote:
      LInda, I see that there has been a dispute between Ancestry and "the Mormons."  I now have no idea who really owns Ancestry.  Perhaps SEC filings would share some light on this. I am curious.
       
      I sort of watched the PBS special on Mormons when it was on TV in Boston.  Mitt Romney was our governor, then presidential candidate so it was good to see.  I would like to watch it again though as I missed some parts.
       
      Marie
       
       
       
      Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
      Marie,

      "I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this."  I don't think there's a problem there because of all the Catholic names I've run on familysearch. org, the only time any of them have come up has been in connection with an IGI (International Genealogical Index) take directly from primary source records.  Although I'm sure it happens that people who were Catholic have converted to the Mormon faith and there are Catholic ancestors who are also now Mormons, apparently none of them share ancestors with me or my husband.   The returns on the results page would say "member supplied" somewhere on the individual page for the person.  I just don't think Catholics have flocked to the Mormon religion in the numbers that other faiths have. 

      For example, if you run my great-grandfather, Luigi Cannella, this is what you get for a result:  LUIGI CANNELLA - International Genealogical Index / SE
      Gender: Male Marriage: 08 SEP 1849 Itri, Latina, Italy. 

      When you click on his name the page you get tells you basically the same thing but because it is for a marriage so you also get: Spouse:  MARIA LORETA CARDI    Marriage:  08 SEP 1849   Itri, Latina, Italy

      And at the bottom, the source of this information which is one of the Itri films of primary source records: Batch No.:  M840603    Dates: 1840 - 1861    Source Call No.: 1173755    Type:  Film; which is this film -> Matrimoni ag. 1840-1861 FHL INTL Film 1173755.

      As far as I'm concerned, if someone was born Catholic, lived life as a Catholic and died in the Catholic faith or any other faith for that matter, something someone does many decades farther down the road isn't going to change that fact that they were Catholics.  It's after the fact and it's not going to change a single thing that has transpired in the past.  I look at it rather like having dual citizenship or two passports... one for the US and one for Italy for those folks who qualify.

      " no longer available for the on line database that one pays for??"   I guess you're talking about the Generations Network sites here?   I had asked one of the volunteers at my FHC whom I knew was a Mormon if the Mormon's owned what Ancestry and it's sister sites' parent company was then known as "My Family.com" and was told "No" and that the FHC's had to pay for their access to Ancestry which she thought was unfair given that most of the content on Ancestry & company was materials that the Mormons had given them access to.

      At any rate, none of the Itri material has ever been available through the pay sites of Ancestry or Genealogy.  I wish it were since it would be much more convenient.  I've gotten tons more research done on Hubby's French Canadian ancestors now that Ancestry has the Drouin* Collection on line.  *The Drouin Institute of Montréal when out in the 1930-1940's and filmed every repertoire aka parish register that was in existence at the time for the whole of Quebec.  The repertoire were, up into the 20th century, the official vital records of Quebec so with the Drouin films, it is possible to trace one's Fre-Can ancestors back to the beginning of New France and the first ancestors to come over from France in the 1600's.   I have often times wished that there existed something similar for Itri and Italy.

      "Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based on objections,. ..."  familysearch. org, where one would find member supplied information thus indicating that someone descended from that person or persons had become a Mormon and submitted their ancestors, is free.   what the jewish people were objecting to where the member supplied information and registration of Jewish ancestors as Mormons.  Just as you won't find too many Catholic ancestors in the Mormon database, you won't find many Jewish ancestors. 

      Look around and you can probably find the program "The Mormons" on a PBS DVD or maybe even your local library might have it in their collection.  It takes a lot of the mystery out of the Mormon faith which so many of us rely on for our research materials but know so little about.  This is from the PBS Store http://www.shoppbs. org/ - The Mormons Single DVD  Item No. MORM601 - Description:
      The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is one of America's fastest growing religions, and its influence circles the globe. Yet the birth of Mormonism and its history is one of America's great neglected narratives. This four-hour documentary brings together FRONTLINE and AMERICAN EXPERIENCE in their first co-production to provide a searching portrait of this fascinating but often misunderstood religion.



      Ancestry databases are records, periodicals, rare books, family genealogies, directories, maps, etc most of which would be otherwise inaccessible to most people by virtue of geographic separation from where the ancestors lived and the time constraints of trying to get in where the materials are during the hours a repository is open.  For example, what Ancestry has are numerous databases such as the Drouin, US, English and Canadian censuses, digitized forms of publications such as the rare early 5 volume 20th century publication "Staten Island and Its People : A History, 1609-1929" or Arnold's "Vital Record of Rhode Island, 1636-1850, First Series, Births, Marriages and Deaths : a Family Register for the People".

      An Ancestry subscription can it's place in one's research.  As much as I love the American French Genealogical Society up in Woonsocket, it's having the Drouin available to me 24/7 through my Ancestry subscription that has gotten me where I am with the Fre-Can ancestors.  Ancestry can't replace the AFGS but it certainly has gotten me light years ahead in that line of research now that I don't have to wait to get time to get into the AFGS when they're open and when I do get in, I can make better use of the trip expanding upon what are know known and confirmed ancestors.

      As far as what "Vault" means, I'm still trying to find that out without bringing attention to the Itri films at my FHC that are now listed as "Vault" on the familysearch. org web site.  I was pleased to see when I did my earlier reply that films that had been "Vault" on the weekend had changed in designation but still none to happy to see that nearly all the Processetti are now "Vault".  However, it's a whole lot easier to live without access to the Processetti than without the BMD films.

      Linda


      marie saccoccio <saccocciom@yahoo. com> wrote:
      Linda, I find this fascinating and distrubing as I really did not know about the posthumous baptisms.  I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this.  Also, when you say the films for Itri are now in the VAULT, do you mean they are no longer available for the online database that one pays for?? 
       
      Don't kid yourself, the Mormons have grown very rich off their database.  I am sure that finances so many of their endeavors.  I would love to see the financials on ancestry.com.  Let me see if I can find anything on that subject.
       
      Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based on objections, since they make so much money off it.  Exclsion of every group that objects would dent into their profit margin. 
       
      Marie  

      Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
      Why indeed?  If I were urber-suspicious, I'd think that it had something to do with the PBS running of the program on the Mormons and the Italian government objecting to the films being out there since the information in them is used by Mormons to have their ancestors posthumously baptized into the Mormon faith.  Somehow, though, I think it just a mundane coincidence that PBS stations around here ran the Mormon program at least 4 times a couple of weeks back that I remember. 

      That's not to say that there haven't been some groups that have objected to having their people recorded for posterity as Mormons.  People of the Jewish faith took great exception to having their ancestors listed as "Mormon" and those people have been removed from the Mormon registers.  Now, only if a former member of the Jewish faith submits their own personal ancestors, does a Jewish ancestor get baptized a Mormon.  When I saw that segment in the program I thought the speaker's attitude a bit pompus.  after all, those ancestors might be that Mormon member's ancestors BUT they are also the ancestors of other people who are of the Jewish faith and might object just as deeply to having their ancestors' faith changed and having someone 100 years from now think that these folks were always Mormon.

      I cringe every time the whole thing about the posthumous baptism gets widespread mention such as on the PBS program because I'm afraid that if too many people or religious groups got their backs ups and started complaining and demanding that their ancestors be struck from the registers of Mormons as was done with those of the Jewish faith, that the access to all the materials that we now enjoy will be denied those who are not Mormon.  My whole take on the thing is that if someone died a Lutheran, Catholic, Buddhist, Shinto, Episcopalian, Methodist or whatever and had considered themselves in life and had practiced that faith in their lifetime, then someone coming along 100 years later and baptizing them without their knowledge or consent really doesn't change a thing of what happened in the past and is pointless but if it puts someone else at ease within their chosen religion, I can't see much harm in it.


      But I do see a great deal of harm to people's research if access to the information in the films is denied.  I wonder if it's just the films on Itri or all the Italian films?

      Linda


      marie saccoccio <saccocciom@yahoo. com> wrote:
      I did some searching and there is a vault outside of Salt Lake City where these are kept.  It actually is a whole in the side of a mountain to protect them.  Looks kind of space age!!!  When you go to Salt Lake City you can view them but you have to order them before hand.  It says that some are chosen for safekeeping.  I bet there is more to this than meets the eye!!  Why Itri of all places?? 
       
      Marie  

      Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
      I think so...I went in one day when Verna was pulling films and I asked her about what she was doing and she showed me a list that had come from Salt Lake that our director wanted the volunteers to pull.  U know what a stickler he seems to be.  I'm afraid to ask and bring attention to the films...I wish there were some way we could spirit them out of there and have bootlegs made...I'd definitely want to share the cost especially if the alternative is having all that information locked away where we can't see it any more.

      Linda

      Jason Soscia <jsoscia3@yahoo. com> wrote:
      Can they really recall them back to Salt Lake?  I paid for most of those Itri films to be kept there indefinitely.

      miyukichan0987 <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
      I noticed while composing a response to our newest member, Martine,
      that quite a few of the films for Itri now say "VAULT INTL Film"
      rather than "FHL INTL Film'.

      I do know that under certain circumstances, films that were previously
      available to research, suddenly become restricted for reasons no one
      aka the volunteers at my FHC has been able to tell me because they
      don't know either. They just get notices from Salt Lake telling them
      to pull the films and return them to the FHL.

      If these films that are now "Vault" are to be restricted it would be a
      major blow to all of us trying to research our ancestors in Itri! It
      has been frustrating enough for me that I can only research the period
      between 1809 -1865 but now to lose a major portion of the films of
      that period would be an insurmountable research tragedy!

      15 of the 26 films of records for Itri are now designated "Vault". I
      called my FHC to see if that means the records are no longer available
      but the volunteer did not know what "Vault" meant with respect to
      films already on loan. So far, the Itrani films at the Warwick, RI
      FHC that are on "Indefinite" loan and which constitute nearly a
      complete set of all the 26 films available, all seem to still be there.

      However, since I don't know if they will at some point in the near
      future be ordered pulled from the files and sent back to Salt Lake,
      I'm going to start living at the FHC because I am far from done with
      searching through those films.

      Can anyone tell the rest of us if "Vault" means that we are about to
      lose access to over 50% of the available films on Itri or not??

      Linda



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      Marie Elena Saccoccio

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      Marie Elena Saccoccio

      Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.


      Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.



      Marie Elena Saccoccio

      Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.


      Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.



      Marie Elena Saccoccio


      Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

    • rickj100001
      Linda, After reading these posts regarding the VAULT v. FHL categories on the family search website, I also became a little alarmed. I don t know why
      Message 2 of 14 , Mar 16, 2008
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        Linda,

        After reading these posts regarding the "VAULT" v. "FHL" categories
        on the family search website, I also became a little alarmed. I
        don't know why certain films are categorized the way they are, and I
        doubt that the volunteers at my local FHC would know either.

        But I have a printout of the FHL Catalog for Itri that I generated
        on 7/1/07. The printout shows almost all of the Processetti films
        (save for the two earliest), two Nati films (1824-1831 and 1832-
        1839) and two Morti films (ag. 1827 - magg. 1846 and 1857-1861)
        listed as "VAULT INTL."

        Since the date of that printout, I have ordered and viewed all of
        the Nati and Morti films (including those listed as VAULT INTL)
        without any problem, and none were pulled from the files prior to my
        consent (currently I have two Processetti films listed as VAULT on
        indefinite loan without any problems).

        So whatever the reasons for the categorizing of these films, it does
        not mean that they are unavailable outside of Salt Lake City. Again,
        I don't know what it means, but I haven't had a problem ordering
        films categorized as VAULT.

        Hope this puts everyone a little more at ease.

        Rick


        --- In FraDiavolo@yahoogroups.com, marie saccoccio <saccocciom@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > LOL My recollection of it was that it was rather boring but
        informative. I should pay more attention next time.
        >
        > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@...> wrote: Marie,
        >
        > It was run several times just a couple of weeks ago...guess you
        missed it. Both WGBH, Boston and WSBE, RI ran it a couple of times
        each. On those days they ran it during normal evening hours & then
        repeated it during the red eye hours. I know 'cause I zonked trying
        to stay awake watching it, woke up and it was still on so I finished
        watching the program thinking I'd only missed a few minutes. Only
        later did I realize that when I had woken-up , what I woke-up during
        was the second showing of the night during the red eye hours. I was
        mightily disoriented that night after my two installment sleep
        delayed viewing of the show and needed a caffeine IV the next day!!!
        >
        > Linda
        >
        > marie saccoccio <saccocciom@...> wrote:
        > LInda, I see that there has been a dispute between Ancestry
        and "the Mormons." I now have no idea who really owns Ancestry.
        Perhaps SEC filings would share some light on this. I am curious.
        >
        > I sort of watched the PBS special on Mormons when it was on TV
        in Boston. Mitt Romney was our governor, then presidential
        candidate so it was good to see. I would like to watch it again
        though as I missed some parts.
        >
        > Marie
        >
        >
        >
        > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@...> wrote:
        > Marie,
        >
        > "I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this." I don't think
        there's a problem there because of all the Catholic names I've run
        on familysearch.org, the only time any of them have come up has been
        in connection with an IGI (International Genealogical Index) take
        directly from primary source records. Although I'm sure it happens
        that people who were Catholic have converted to the Mormon faith and
        there are Catholic ancestors who are also now Mormons, apparently
        none of them share ancestors with me or my husband. The returns on
        the results page would say "member supplied" somewhere on the
        individual page for the person. I just don't think Catholics have
        flocked to the Mormon religion in the numbers that other faiths
        have.
        >
        > For example, if you run my great-grandfather, Luigi Cannella, this
        is what you get for a result: LUIGI CANNELLA - International
        Genealogical Index / SE
        > Gender: Male Marriage: 08 SEP 1849 Itri, Latina, Italy.
        >
        > When you click on his name the page you get tells you basically
        the same thing but because it is for a marriage so you also get:
        Spouse: MARIA LORETA CARDI Marriage: 08 SEP 1849 Itri,
        Latina, Italy
        >
        > And at the bottom, the source of this information which is one of
        the Itri films of primary source records: Batch No.: M840603
        Dates: 1840 - 1861 Source Call No.: 1173755 Type: Film; which
        is this film -> Matrimoni ag. 1840-1861 FHL INTL Film 1173755.
        >
        > As far as I'm concerned, if someone was born Catholic, lived life
        as a Catholic and died in the Catholic faith or any other faith for
        that matter, something someone does many decades farther down the
        road isn't going to change that fact that they were Catholics. It's
        after the fact and it's not going to change a single thing that has
        transpired in the past. I look at it rather like having dual
        citizenship or two passports...one for the US and one for Italy for
        those folks who qualify.
        >
        > " no longer available for the on line database that one pays
        for??" I guess you're talking about the Generations Network sites
        here? I had asked one of the volunteers at my FHC whom I knew was
        a Mormon if the Mormon's owned what Ancestry and it's sister sites'
        parent company was then known as "My Family.com" and was told "No"
        and that the FHC's had to pay for their access to Ancestry which she
        thought was unfair given that most of the content on Ancestry &
        company was materials that the Mormons had given them access to.
        >
        > At any rate, none of the Itri material has ever been available
        through the pay sites of Ancestry or Genealogy. I wish it were
        since it would be much more convenient. I've gotten tons more
        research done on Hubby's French Canadian ancestors now that Ancestry
        has the Drouin* Collection on line. *The Drouin Institute of
        Montréal when out in the 1930-1940's and filmed every repertoire
        aka parish register that was in existence at the time for the whole
        of Quebec. The repertoire were, up into the 20th century, the
        official vital records of Quebec so with the Drouin films, it is
        possible to trace one's Fre-Can ancestors back to the beginning of
        New France and the first ancestors to come over from France in the
        1600's. I have often times wished that there existed something
        similar for Itri and Italy.
        >
        > "Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based
        on objections,...." familysearch.org, where one would find member
        supplied information thus indicating that someone descended from
        that person or persons had become a Mormon and submitted their
        ancestors, is free. what the jewish people were objecting to where
        the member supplied information and registration of Jewish ancestors
        as Mormons. Just as you won't find too many Catholic ancestors in
        the Mormon database, you won't find many Jewish ancestors.
        >
        > Look around and you can probably find the program "The Mormons" on
        a PBS DVD or maybe even your local library might have it in their
        collection. It takes a lot of the mystery out of the Mormon faith
        which so many of us rely on for our research materials but know so
        little about. This is from the PBS Store http://www.shoppbs.org/ -
        The Mormons Single DVD Item No. MORM601 - Description: The Church
        of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is one of America's fastest
        growing religions, and its influence circles the globe. Yet the
        birth of Mormonism and its history is one of America's great
        neglected narratives. This four-hour documentary brings together
        FRONTLINE and AMERICAN EXPERIENCE in their first co-production to
        provide a searching portrait of this fascinating but often
        misunderstood religion.
        >
        >
        >
        > Ancestry databases are records, periodicals, rare books, family
        genealogies, directories, maps, etc most of which would be otherwise
        inaccessible to most people by virtue of geographic separation from
        where the ancestors lived and the time constraints of trying to get
        in where the materials are during the hours a repository is open.
        For example, what Ancestry has are numerous databases such as the
        Drouin, US, English and Canadian censuses, digitized forms of
        publications such as the rare early 5 volume 20th century
        publication "Staten Island and Its People : A History, 1609-1929" or
        Arnold's "Vital Record of Rhode Island, 1636-1850, First Series,
        Births, Marriages and Deaths : a Family Register for the People".
        >
        > An Ancestry subscription can it's place in one's research. As
        much as I love the American French Genealogical Society up in
        Woonsocket, it's having the Drouin available to me 24/7 through my
        Ancestry subscription that has gotten me where I am with the Fre-Can
        ancestors. Ancestry can't replace the AFGS but it certainly has
        gotten me light years ahead in that line of research now that I
        don't have to wait to get time to get into the AFGS when they're
        open and when I do get in, I can make better use of the trip
        expanding upon what are know known and confirmed ancestors.
        >
        > As far as what "Vault" means, I'm still trying to find that out
        without bringing attention to the Itri films at my FHC that are now
        listed as "Vault" on the familysearch.org web site. I was pleased
        to see when I did my earlier reply that films that had been "Vault"
        on the weekend had changed in designation but still none to happy to
        see that nearly all the Processetti are now "Vault". However, it's
        a whole lot easier to live without access to the Processetti than
        without the BMD films.
        >
        > Linda
        >
        >
        > marie saccoccio <saccocciom@...> wrote:
        > Linda, I find this fascinating and distrubing as I really did
        not know about the posthumous baptisms. I am sure the Vatican would
        not approve of this. Also, when you say the films for Itri are now
        in the VAULT, do you mean they are no longer available for the
        online database that one pays for??
        >
        > Don't kid yourself, the Mormons have grown very rich off their
        database. I am sure that finances so many of their endeavors. I
        would love to see the financials on ancestry.com. Let me see if I
        can find anything on that subject.
        >
        > Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based
        on objections, since they make so much money off it. Exclsion of
        every group that objects would dent into their profit margin.
        >
        > Marie
        >
        > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@...> wrote:
        > Why indeed? If I were urber-suspicious, I'd think that it
        had something to do with the PBS running of the program on the
        Mormons and the Italian government objecting to the films being out
        there since the information in them is used by Mormons to have their
        ancestors posthumously baptized into the Mormon faith. Somehow,
        though, I think it just a mundane coincidence that PBS stations
        around here ran the Mormon program at least 4 times a couple of
        weeks back that I remember.
        >
        > That's not to say that there haven't been some groups that have
        objected to having their people recorded for posterity as Mormons.
        People of the Jewish faith took great exception to having their
        ancestors listed as "Mormon" and those people have been removed from
        the Mormon registers. Now, only if a former member of the Jewish
        faith submits their own personal ancestors, does a Jewish ancestor
        get baptized a Mormon. When I saw that segment in the program I
        thought the speaker's attitude a bit pompus. after all, those
        ancestors might be that Mormon member's ancestors BUT they are also
        the ancestors of other people who are of the Jewish faith and might
        object just as deeply to having their ancestors' faith changed and
        having someone 100 years from now think that these folks were always
        Mormon.
        >
        > I cringe every time the whole thing about the posthumous baptism
        gets widespread mention such as on the PBS program because I'm
        afraid that if too many people or religious groups got their backs
        ups and started complaining and demanding that their ancestors be
        struck from the registers of Mormons as was done with those of the
        Jewish faith, that the access to all the materials that we now enjoy
        will be denied those who are not Mormon. My whole take on the thing
        is that if someone died a Lutheran, Catholic, Buddhist, Shinto,
        Episcopalian, Methodist or whatever and had considered themselves in
        life and had practiced that faith in their lifetime, then someone
        coming along 100 years later and baptizing them without their
        knowledge or consent really doesn't change a thing of what happened
        in the past and is pointless but if it puts someone else at ease
        within their chosen religion, I can't see much harm in it.
        >
        >
        > But I do see a great deal of harm to people's research if access
        to the information in the films is denied. I wonder if it's just
        the films on Itri or all the Italian films?
        >
        > Linda
        >
        >
        > marie saccoccio <saccocciom@...> wrote:
        > I did some searching and there is a vault outside of Salt Lake
        City where these are kept. It actually is a whole in the side of a
        mountain to protect them. Looks kind of space age!!! When you go
        to Salt Lake City you can view them but you have to order them
        before hand. It says that some are chosen for safekeeping. I bet
        there is more to this than meets the eye!! Why Itri of all
        places??
        >
        > Marie
        >
        > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@...> wrote:
        > I think so...I went in one day when Verna was pulling films
        and I asked her about what she was doing and she showed me a list
        that had come from Salt Lake that our director wanted the volunteers
        to pull. U know what a stickler he seems to be. I'm afraid to ask
        and bring attention to the films...I wish there were some way we
        could spirit them out of there and have bootlegs made...I'd
        definitely want to share the cost especially if the alternative is
        having all that information locked away where we can't see it any
        more.
        >
        > Linda
        >
        > Jason Soscia <jsoscia3@...> wrote: Can they really recall
        them back to Salt Lake? I paid for most of those Itri films to be
        kept there indefinitely.
        >
        > miyukichan0987 <miyukichan0987@...> wrote:
        > I noticed while composing a response to our newest member,
        Martine,
        > that quite a few of the films for Itri now say "VAULT INTL Film"
        > rather than "FHL INTL Film'.
        >
        > I do know that under certain circumstances, films that were
        previously
        > available to research, suddenly become restricted for reasons no
        one
        > aka the volunteers at my FHC has been able to tell me because they
        > don't know either. They just get notices from Salt Lake telling
        them
        > to pull the films and return them to the FHL.
        >
        > If these films that are now "Vault" are to be restricted it would
        be a
        > major blow to all of us trying to research our ancestors in Itri!
        It
        > has been frustrating enough for me that I can only research the
        period
        > between 1809 -1865 but now to lose a major portion of the films of
        > that period would be an insurmountable research tragedy!
        >
        > 15 of the 26 films of records for Itri are now designated "Vault".
        I
        > called my FHC to see if that means the records are no longer
        available
        > but the volunteer did not know what "Vault" meant with respect to
        > films already on loan. So far, the Itrani films at the Warwick, RI
        > FHC that are on "Indefinite" loan and which constitute nearly a
        > complete set of all the 26 films available, all seem to still be
        there.
        >
        > However, since I don't know if they will at some point in the near
        > future be ordered pulled from the files and sent back to Salt Lake,
        > I'm going to start living at the FHC because I am far from done
        with
        > searching through those films.
        >
        > Can anyone tell the rest of us if "Vault" means that we are about
        to
        > lose access to over 50% of the available films on Itri or not??
        >
        > Linda
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
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      • Linda Peloquin
        Rick, That s encouraging. I have a couple of the early processetti films that are now VAULT on indefinite and I d hate for them to be sent back as I have
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 19, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Rick,

          That's encouraging.  I have a couple of the early processetti films that are now "VAULT" on indefinite and I'd hate for them to be sent back as I have been able to push just a speck farther back using the records contained in them.

          The way I had read the definition of the VAULT films on the familysearch.org it sounded like the films would only be available via a trip to Salt Lake and that one would have to reserve the films ahead.

          I had wanted to get into my FHC this weekend and check on the films that are presently there that are now catagorized "VAULT" but had no time.   Hopefully I can get in this week.

          I wonder if Jason has had a chance to go there yet to check.

          Linda

          rickj100001 <rickj100001@...> wrote:
          Linda,

          After reading these posts regarding the "VAULT" v. "FHL" categories
          on the family search website, I also became a little alarmed. I
          don't know why certain films are categorized the way they are, and I
          doubt that the volunteers at my local FHC would know either.

          But I have a printout of the FHL Catalog for Itri that I generated
          on 7/1/07. The printout shows almost all of the Processetti films
          (save for the two earliest), two Nati films (1824-1831 and 1832-
          1839) and two Morti films (ag. 1827 - magg. 1846 and 1857-1861)
          listed as "VAULT INTL."

          Since the date of that printout, I have ordered and viewed all of
          the Nati and Morti films (including those listed as VAULT INTL)
          without any problem, and none were pulled from the files prior to my
          consent (currently I have two Processetti films listed as VAULT on
          indefinite loan without any problems).

          So whatever the reasons for the categorizing of these films, it does
          not mean that they are unavailable outside of Salt Lake City. Again,
          I don't know what it means, but I haven't had a problem ordering
          films categorized as VAULT.

          Hope this puts everyone a little more at ease.

          Rick

          --- In FraDiavolo@yahoogro ups.com, marie saccoccio <saccocciom@ ...>
          wrote:
          >
          > LOL My recollection of it was that it was rather boring but
          informative. I should pay more attention next time.
          >
          > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ ...> wrote: Marie,
          >
          > It was run several times just a couple of weeks ago...guess you
          missed it. Both WGBH, Boston and WSBE, RI ran it a couple of times
          each. On those days they ran it during normal evening hours & then
          repeated it during the red eye hours. I know 'cause I zonked trying
          to stay awake watching it, woke up and it was still on so I finished
          watching the program thinking I'd only missed a few minutes. Only
          later did I realize that when I had woken-up , what I woke-up during
          was the second showing of the night during the red eye hours. I was
          mightily disoriented that night after my two installment sleep
          delayed viewing of the show and needed a caffeine IV the next day!!!
          >
          > Linda
          >
          > marie saccoccio <saccocciom@ ...> wrote:
          > LInda, I see that there has been a dispute between Ancestry
          and "the Mormons." I now have no idea who really owns Ancestry.
          Perhaps SEC filings would share some light on this. I am curious.
          >
          > I sort of watched the PBS special on Mormons when it was on TV
          in Boston. Mitt Romney was our governor, then presidential
          candidate so it was good to see. I would like to watch it again
          though as I missed some parts.
          >
          > Marie
          >
          >
          >
          > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ ...> wrote:
          > Marie,
          >
          > "I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this." I don't think
          there's a problem there because of all the Catholic names I've run
          on familysearch. org, the only time any of them have come up has been
          in connection with an IGI (International Genealogical Index) take
          directly from primary source records. Although I'm sure it happens
          that people who were Catholic have converted to the Mormon faith and
          there are Catholic ancestors who are also now Mormons, apparently
          none of them share ancestors with me or my husband. The returns on
          the results page would say "member supplied" somewhere on the
          individual page for the person. I just don't think Catholics have
          flocked to the Mormon religion in the numbers that other faiths
          have.
          >
          > For example, if you run my great-grandfather, Luigi Cannella, this
          is what you get for a result: LUIGI CANNELLA - International
          Genealogical Index / SE
          > Gender: Male Marriage: 08 SEP 1849 Itri, Latina, Italy.
          >
          > When you click on his name the page you get tells you basically
          the same thing but because it is for a marriage so you also get:
          Spouse: MARIA LORETA CARDI Marriage: 08 SEP 1849 Itri,
          Latina, Italy
          >
          > And at the bottom, the source of this information which is one of
          the Itri films of primary source records: Batch No.: M840603
          Dates: 1840 - 1861 Source Call No.: 1173755 Type: Film; which
          is this film -> Matrimoni ag. 1840-1861 FHL INTL Film 1173755.
          >
          > As far as I'm concerned, if someone was born Catholic, lived life
          as a Catholic and died in the Catholic faith or any other faith for
          that matter, something someone does many decades farther down the
          road isn't going to change that fact that they were Catholics. It's
          after the fact and it's not going to change a single thing that has
          transpired in the past. I look at it rather like having dual
          citizenship or two passports... one for the US and one for Italy for
          those folks who qualify.
          >
          > " no longer available for the on line database that one pays
          for??" I guess you're talking about the Generations Network sites
          here? I had asked one of the volunteers at my FHC whom I knew was
          a Mormon if the Mormon's owned what Ancestry and it's sister sites'
          parent company was then known as "My Family.com" and was told "No"
          and that the FHC's had to pay for their access to Ancestry which she
          thought was unfair given that most of the content on Ancestry &
          company was materials that the Mormons had given them access to.
          >
          > At any rate, none of the Itri material has ever been available
          through the pay sites of Ancestry or Genealogy. I wish it were
          since it would be much more convenient. I've gotten tons more
          research done on Hubby's French Canadian ancestors now that Ancestry
          has the Drouin* Collection on line. *The Drouin Institute of
          Montréal when out in the 1930-1940's and filmed every repertoire
          aka parish register that was in existence at the time for the whole
          of Quebec. The repertoire were, up into the 20th century, the
          official vital records of Quebec so with the Drouin films, it is
          possible to trace one's Fre-Can ancestors back to the beginning of
          New France and the first ancestors to come over from France in the
          1600's. I have often times wished that there existed something
          similar for Itri and Italy.
          >
          > "Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based
          on objections,. ..." familysearch. org, where one would find member
          supplied information thus indicating that someone descended from
          that person or persons had become a Mormon and submitted their
          ancestors, is free. what the jewish people were objecting to where
          the member supplied information and registration of Jewish ancestors
          as Mormons. Just as you won't find too many Catholic ancestors in
          the Mormon database, you won't find many Jewish ancestors.
          >
          > Look around and you can probably find the program "The Mormons" on
          a PBS DVD or maybe even your local library might have it in their
          collection. It takes a lot of the mystery out of the Mormon faith
          which so many of us rely on for our research materials but know so
          little about. This is from the PBS Store http://www.shoppbs. org/ -
          The Mormons Single DVD Item No. MORM601 - Description: The Church
          of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is one of America's fastest
          growing religions, and its influence circles the globe. Yet the
          birth of Mormonism and its history is one of America's great
          neglected narratives. This four-hour documentary brings together
          FRONTLINE and AMERICAN EXPERIENCE in their first co-production to
          provide a searching portrait of this fascinating but often
          misunderstood religion.
          >
          >
          >
          > Ancestry databases are records, periodicals, rare books, family
          genealogies, directories, maps, etc most of which would be otherwise
          inaccessible to most people by virtue of geographic separation from
          where the ancestors lived and the time constraints of trying to get
          in where the materials are during the hours a repository is open.
          For example, what Ancestry has are numerous databases such as the
          Drouin, US, English and Canadian censuses, digitized forms of
          publications such as the rare early 5 volume 20th century
          publication "Staten Island and Its People : A History, 1609-1929" or
          Arnold's "Vital Record of Rhode Island, 1636-1850, First Series,
          Births, Marriages and Deaths : a Family Register for the People".
          >
          > An Ancestry subscription can it's place in one's research. As
          much as I love the American French Genealogical Society up in
          Woonsocket, it's having the Drouin available to me 24/7 through my
          Ancestry subscription that has gotten me where I am with the Fre-Can
          ancestors. Ancestry can't replace the AFGS but it certainly has
          gotten me light years ahead in that line of research now that I
          don't have to wait to get time to get into the AFGS when they're
          open and when I do get in, I can make better use of the trip
          expanding upon what are know known and confirmed ancestors.
          >
          > As far as what "Vault" means, I'm still trying to find that out
          without bringing attention to the Itri films at my FHC that are now
          listed as "Vault" on the familysearch. org web site. I was pleased
          to see when I did my earlier reply that films that had been "Vault"
          on the weekend had changed in designation but still none to happy to
          see that nearly all the Processetti are now "Vault". However, it's
          a whole lot easier to live without access to the Processetti than
          without the BMD films.
          >
          > Linda
          >
          >
          > marie saccoccio <saccocciom@ ...> wrote:
          > Linda, I find this fascinating and distrubing as I really did
          not know about the posthumous baptisms. I am sure the Vatican would
          not approve of this. Also, when you say the films for Itri are now
          in the VAULT, do you mean they are no longer available for the
          online database that one pays for??
          >
          > Don't kid yourself, the Mormons have grown very rich off their
          database. I am sure that finances so many of their endeavors. I
          would love to see the financials on ancestry.com. Let me see if I
          can find anything on that subject.
          >
          > Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based
          on objections, since they make so much money off it. Exclsion of
          every group that objects would dent into their profit margin.
          >
          > Marie
          >
          > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ ...> wrote:
          > Why indeed? If I were urber-suspicious, I'd think that it
          had something to do with the PBS running of the program on the
          Mormons and the Italian government objecting to the films being out
          there since the information in them is used by Mormons to have their
          ancestors posthumously baptized into the Mormon faith. Somehow,
          though, I think it just a mundane coincidence that PBS stations
          around here ran the Mormon program at least 4 times a couple of
          weeks back that I remember.
          >
          > That's not to say that there haven't been some groups that have
          objected to having their people recorded for posterity as Mormons.
          People of the Jewish faith took great exception to having their
          ancestors listed as "Mormon" and those people have been removed from
          the Mormon registers. Now, only if a former member of the Jewish
          faith submits their own personal ancestors, does a Jewish ancestor
          get baptized a Mormon. When I saw that segment in the program I
          thought the speaker's attitude a bit pompus. after all, those
          ancestors might be that Mormon member's ancestors BUT they are also
          the ancestors of other people who are of the Jewish faith and might
          object just as deeply to having their ancestors' faith changed and
          having someone 100 years from now think that these folks were always
          Mormon.
          >
          > I cringe every time the whole thing about the posthumous baptism
          gets widespread mention such as on the PBS program because I'm
          afraid that if too many people or religious groups got their backs
          ups and started complaining and demanding that their ancestors be
          struck from the registers of Mormons as was done with those of the
          Jewish faith, that the access to all the materials that we now enjoy
          will be denied those who are not Mormon. My whole take on the thing
          is that if someone died a Lutheran, Catholic, Buddhist, Shinto,
          Episcopalian, Methodist or whatever and had considered themselves in
          life and had practiced that faith in their lifetime, then someone
          coming along 100 years later and baptizing them without their
          knowledge or consent really doesn't change a thing of what happened
          in the past and is pointless but if it puts someone else at ease
          within their chosen religion, I can't see much harm in it.
          >
          >
          > But I do see a great deal of harm to people's research if access
          to the information in the films is denied. I wonder if it's just
          the films on Itri or all the Italian films?
          >
          > Linda
          >
          >
          > marie saccoccio <saccocciom@ ...> wrote:
          > I did some searching and there is a vault outside of Salt Lake
          City where these are kept. It actually is a whole in the side of a
          mountain to protect them. Looks kind of space age!!! When you go
          to Salt Lake City you can view them but you have to order them
          before hand. It says that some are chosen for safekeeping. I bet
          there is more to this than meets the eye!! Why Itri of all
          places??
          >
          > Marie
          >
          > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ ...> wrote:
          > I think so...I went in one day when Verna was pulling films
          and I asked her about what she was doing and she showed me a list
          that had come from Salt Lake that our director wanted the volunteers
          to pull. U know what a stickler he seems to be. I'm afraid to ask
          and bring attention to the films...I wish there were some way we
          could spirit them out of there and have bootlegs made...I'd
          definitely want to share the cost especially if the alternative is
          having all that information locked away where we can't see it any
          more.
          >
          > Linda
          >
          > Jason Soscia <jsoscia3@.. .> wrote: Can they really recall
          them back to Salt Lake? I paid for most of those Itri films to be
          kept there indefinitely.
          >
          > miyukichan0987 <miyukichan0987@ ...> wrote:
          > I noticed while composing a response to our newest member,
          Martine,
          > that quite a few of the films for Itri now say "VAULT INTL Film"
          > rather than "FHL INTL Film'.
          >
          > I do know that under certain circumstances, films that were
          previously
          > available to research, suddenly become restricted for reasons no
          one
          > aka the volunteers at my FHC has been able to tell me because they
          > don't know either. They just get notices from Salt Lake telling
          them
          > to pull the films and return them to the FHL.
          >
          > If these films that are now "Vault" are to be restricted it would
          be a
          > major blow to all of us trying to research our ancestors in Itri!
          It
          > has been frustrating enough for me that I can only research the
          period
          > between 1809 -1865 but now to lose a major portion of the films of
          > that period would be an insurmountable research tragedy!
          >
          > 15 of the 26 films of records for Itri are now designated "Vault".
          I
          > called my FHC to see if that means the records are no longer
          available
          > but the volunteer did not know what "Vault" meant with respect to
          > films already on loan. So far, the Itrani films at the Warwick, RI
          > FHC that are on "Indefinite" loan and which constitute nearly a
          > complete set of all the 26 films available, all seem to still be
          there.
          >
          > However, since I don't know if they will at some point in the near
          > future be ordered pulled from the files and sent back to Salt Lake,
          > I'm going to start living at the FHC because I am far from done
          with
          > searching through those films.
          >
          > Can anyone tell the rest of us if "Vault" means that we are about
          to
          > lose access to over 50% of the available films on Itri or not??
          >
          > Linda
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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