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Re: [FraDiavolo] Itrani Films - VAULT ALERT!!!!!

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  • Linda Peloquin
    Marie, I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this. I don t think there s a problem there because of all the Catholic names I ve run on
    Message 1 of 14 , Mar 11, 2008
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      Marie,

      "I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this."  I don't think there's a problem there because of all the Catholic names I've run on familysearch.org, the only time any of them have come up has been in connection with an IGI (International Genealogical Index) take directly from primary source records.  Although I'm sure it happens that people who were Catholic have converted to the Mormon faith and there are Catholic ancestors who are also now Mormons, apparently none of them share ancestors with me or my husband.   The returns on the results page would say "member supplied" somewhere on the individual page for the person.  I just don't think Catholics have flocked to the Mormon religion in the numbers that other faiths have. 

      For example, if you run my great-grandfather, Luigi Cannella, this is what you get for a result:  LUIGI CANNELLA - International Genealogical Index / SE
      Gender: Male Marriage: 08 SEP 1849 Itri, Latina, Italy. 

      When you click on his name the page you get tells you basically the same thing but because it is for a marriage so you also get: Spouse:  MARIA LORETA CARDI    Marriage:  08 SEP 1849   Itri, Latina, Italy

      And at the bottom, the source of this information which is one of the Itri films of primary source records: Batch No.:  M840603    Dates: 1840 - 1861    Source Call No.: 1173755    Type:  Film; which is this film -> Matrimoni ag. 1840-1861 FHL INTL Film 1173755.

      As far as I'm concerned, if someone was born Catholic, lived life as a Catholic and died in the Catholic faith or any other faith for that matter, something someone does many decades farther down the road isn't going to change that fact that they were Catholics.  It's after the fact and it's not going to change a single thing that has transpired in the past.  I look at it rather like having dual citizenship or two passports...one for the US and one for Italy for those folks who qualify.

      " no longer available for the on line database that one pays for??"   I guess you're talking about the Generations Network sites here?   I had asked one of the volunteers at my FHC whom I knew was a Mormon if the Mormon's owned what Ancestry and it's sister sites' parent company was then known as "My Family.com" and was told "No" and that the FHC's had to pay for their access to Ancestry which she thought was unfair given that most of the content on Ancestry & company was materials that the Mormons had given them access to.

      At any rate, none of the Itri material has ever been available through the pay sites of Ancestry or Genealogy.  I wish it were since it would be much more convenient.  I've gotten tons more research done on Hubby's French Canadian ancestors now that Ancestry has the Drouin* Collection on line.  *The Drouin Institute of Montréal when out in the 1930-1940's and filmed every repertoire aka parish register that was in existence at the time for the whole of Quebec.  The repertoire were, up into the 20th century, the official vital records of Quebec so with the Drouin films, it is possible to trace one's Fre-Can ancestors back to the beginning of New France and the first ancestors to come over from France in the 1600's.   I have often times wished that there existed something similar for Itri and Italy.

      "Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based on objections,...."  familysearch.org, where one would find member supplied information thus indicating that someone descended from that person or persons had become a Mormon and submitted their ancestors, is free.   what the jewish people were objecting to where the member supplied information and registration of Jewish ancestors as Mormons.  Just as you won't find too many Catholic ancestors in the Mormon database, you won't find many Jewish ancestors. 

      Look around and you can probably find the program "The Mormons" on a PBS DVD or maybe even your local library might have it in their collection.  It takes a lot of the mystery out of the Mormon faith which so many of us rely on for our research materials but know so little about.  This is from the PBS Store http://www.shoppbs.org/ - The Mormons Single DVD  Item No. MORM601 - Description:
      The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is one of America's fastest growing religions, and its influence circles the globe. Yet the birth of Mormonism and its history is one of America's great neglected narratives. This four-hour documentary brings together FRONTLINE and AMERICAN EXPERIENCE in their first co-production to provide a searching portrait of this fascinating but often misunderstood religion.



      Ancestry databases are records, periodicals, rare books, family genealogies, directories, maps, etc most of which would be otherwise inaccessible to most people by virtue of geographic separation from where the ancestors lived and the time constraints of trying to get in where the materials are during the hours a repository is open.  For example, what Ancestry has are numerous databases such as the Drouin, US, English and Canadian censuses, digitized forms of publications such as the rare early 5 volume 20th century publication "Staten Island and Its People : A History, 1609-1929" or Arnold's "Vital Record of Rhode Island, 1636-1850, First Series, Births, Marriages and Deaths : a Family Register for the People".

      An Ancestry subscription can it's place in one's research.  As much as I love the American French Genealogical Society up in Woonsocket, it's having the Drouin available to me 24/7 through my Ancestry subscription that has gotten me where I am with the Fre-Can ancestors.  Ancestry can't replace the AFGS but it certainly has gotten me light years ahead in that line of research now that I don't have to wait to get time to get into the AFGS when they're open and when I do get in, I can make better use of the trip expanding upon what are know known and confirmed ancestors.

      As far as what "Vault" means, I'm still trying to find that out without bringing attention to the Itri films at my FHC that are now listed as "Vault" on the familysearch.org web site.  I was pleased to see when I did my earlier reply that films that had been "Vault" on the weekend had changed in designation but still none to happy to see that nearly all the Processetti are now "Vault".  However, it's a whole lot easier to live without access to the Processetti than without the BMD films.

      Linda


      marie saccoccio <saccocciom@...> wrote:
      Linda, I find this fascinating and distrubing as I really did not know about the posthumous baptisms.  I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this.  Also, when you say the films for Itri are now in the VAULT, do you mean they are no longer available for the online database that one pays for?? 
       
      Don't kid yourself, the Mormons have grown very rich off their database.  I am sure that finances so many of their endeavors.  I would love to see the financials on ancestry.com.  Let me see if I can find anything on that subject.
       
      Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based on objections, since they make so much money off it.  Exclsion of every group that objects would dent into their profit margin. 
       
      Marie  

      Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
      Why indeed?  If I were urber-suspicious, I'd think that it had something to do with the PBS running of the program on the Mormons and the Italian government objecting to the films being out there since the information in them is used by Mormons to have their ancestors posthumously baptized into the Mormon faith.  Somehow, though, I think it just a mundane coincidence that PBS stations around here ran the Mormon program at least 4 times a couple of weeks back that I remember. 

      That's not to say that there haven't been some groups that have objected to having their people recorded for posterity as Mormons.  People of the Jewish faith took great exception to having their ancestors listed as "Mormon" and those people have been removed from the Mormon registers.  Now, only if a former member of the Jewish faith submits their own personal ancestors, does a Jewish ancestor get baptized a Mormon.  When I saw that segment in the program I thought the speaker's attitude a bit pompus.  after all, those ancestors might be that Mormon member's ancestors BUT they are also the ancestors of other people who are of the Jewish faith and might object just as deeply to having their ancestors' faith changed and having someone 100 years from now think that these folks were always Mormon.

      I cringe every time the whole thing about the posthumous baptism gets widespread mention such as on the PBS program because I'm afraid that if too many people or religious groups got their backs ups and started complaining and demanding that their ancestors be struck from the registers of Mormons as was done with those of the Jewish faith, that the access to all the materials that we now enjoy will be denied those who are not Mormon.  My whole take on the thing is that if someone died a Lutheran, Catholic, Buddhist, Shinto, Episcopalian, Methodist or whatever and had considered themselves in life and had practiced that faith in their lifetime, then someone coming along 100 years later and baptizing them without their knowledge or consent really doesn't change a thing of what happened in the past and is pointless but if it puts someone else at ease within their chosen religion, I can't see much harm in it.


      But I do see a great deal of harm to people's research if access to the information in the films is denied.  I wonder if it's just the films on Itri or all the Italian films?

      Linda


      marie saccoccio <saccocciom@yahoo. com> wrote:
      I did some searching and there is a vault outside of Salt Lake City where these are kept.  It actually is a whole in the side of a mountain to protect them.  Looks kind of space age!!!  When you go to Salt Lake City you can view them but you have to order them before hand.  It says that some are chosen for safekeeping.  I bet there is more to this than meets the eye!!  Why Itri of all places?? 
       
      Marie  

      Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
      I think so...I went in one day when Verna was pulling films and I asked her about what she was doing and she showed me a list that had come from Salt Lake that our director wanted the volunteers to pull.  U know what a stickler he seems to be.  I'm afraid to ask and bring attention to the films...I wish there were some way we could spirit them out of there and have bootlegs made...I'd definitely want to share the cost especially if the alternative is having all that information locked away where we can't see it any more.

      Linda

      Jason Soscia <jsoscia3@yahoo. com> wrote:
      Can they really recall them back to Salt Lake?  I paid for most of those Itri films to be kept there indefinitely.

      miyukichan0987 <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
      I noticed while composing a response to our newest member, Martine,
      that quite a few of the films for Itri now say "VAULT INTL Film"
      rather than "FHL INTL Film'.

      I do know that under certain circumstances, films that were previously
      available to research, suddenly become restricted for reasons no one
      aka the volunteers at my FHC has been able to tell me because they
      don't know either. They just get notices from Salt Lake telling them
      to pull the films and return them to the FHL.

      If these films that are now "Vault" are to be restricted it would be a
      major blow to all of us trying to research our ancestors in Itri! It
      has been frustrating enough for me that I can only research the period
      between 1809 -1865 but now to lose a major portion of the films of
      that period would be an insurmountable research tragedy!

      15 of the 26 films of records for Itri are now designated "Vault". I
      called my FHC to see if that means the records are no longer available
      but the volunteer did not know what "Vault" meant with respect to
      films already on loan. So far, the Itrani films at the Warwick, RI
      FHC that are on "Indefinite" loan and which constitute nearly a
      complete set of all the 26 films available, all seem to still be there.

      However, since I don't know if they will at some point in the near
      future be ordered pulled from the files and sent back to Salt Lake,
      I'm going to start living at the FHC because I am far from done with
      searching through those films.

      Can anyone tell the rest of us if "Vault" means that we are about to
      lose access to over 50% of the available films on Itri or not??

      Linda



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    • marie saccoccio
      LInda, I see that there has been a dispute between Ancestry and the Mormons. I now have no idea who really owns Ancestry. Perhaps SEC filings would share
      Message 2 of 14 , Mar 11, 2008
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        LInda, I see that there has been a dispute between Ancestry and "the Mormons."  I now have no idea who really owns Ancestry.  Perhaps SEC filings would share some light on this. I am curious.
         
        I sort of watched the PBS special on Mormons when it was on TV in Boston.  Mitt Romney was our governor, then presidential candidate so it was good to see.  I would like to watch it again though as I missed some parts.
         
        Marie
         
         
         
        Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@...> wrote:
        Marie,

        "I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this."  I don't think there's a problem there because of all the Catholic names I've run on familysearch. org, the only time any of them have come up has been in connection with an IGI (International Genealogical Index) take directly from primary source records.  Although I'm sure it happens that people who were Catholic have converted to the Mormon faith and there are Catholic ancestors who are also now Mormons, apparently none of them share ancestors with me or my husband.   The returns on the results page would say "member supplied" somewhere on the individual page for the person.  I just don't think Catholics have flocked to the Mormon religion in the numbers that other faiths have. 

        For example, if you run my great-grandfather, Luigi Cannella, this is what you get for a result:  LUIGI CANNELLA - International Genealogical Index / SE
        Gender: Male Marriage: 08 SEP 1849 Itri, Latina, Italy. 

        When you click on his name the page you get tells you basically the same thing but because it is for a marriage so you also get: Spouse:  MARIA LORETA CARDI    Marriage:  08 SEP 1849   Itri, Latina, Italy

        And at the bottom, the source of this information which is one of the Itri films of primary source records: Batch No.:  M840603    Dates: 1840 - 1861    Source Call No.: 1173755    Type:  Film; which is this film -> Matrimoni ag. 1840-1861 FHL INTL Film 1173755.

        As far as I'm concerned, if someone was born Catholic, lived life as a Catholic and died in the Catholic faith or any other faith for that matter, something someone does many decades farther down the road isn't going to change that fact that they were Catholics.  It's after the fact and it's not going to change a single thing that has transpired in the past.  I look at it rather like having dual citizenship or two passports... one for the US and one for Italy for those folks who qualify.

        " no longer available for the on line database that one pays for??"   I guess you're talking about the Generations Network sites here?   I had asked one of the volunteers at my FHC whom I knew was a Mormon if the Mormon's owned what Ancestry and it's sister sites' parent company was then known as "My Family.com" and was told "No" and that the FHC's had to pay for their access to Ancestry which she thought was unfair given that most of the content on Ancestry & company was materials that the Mormons had given them access to.

        At any rate, none of the Itri material has ever been available through the pay sites of Ancestry or Genealogy.  I wish it were since it would be much more convenient.  I've gotten tons more research done on Hubby's French Canadian ancestors now that Ancestry has the Drouin* Collection on line.  *The Drouin Institute of Montréal when out in the 1930-1940's and filmed every repertoire aka parish register that was in existence at the time for the whole of Quebec.  The repertoire were, up into the 20th century, the official vital records of Quebec so with the Drouin films, it is possible to trace one's Fre-Can ancestors back to the beginning of New France and the first ancestors to come over from France in the 1600's.   I have often times wished that there existed something similar for Itri and Italy.

        "Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based on objections,. ..."  familysearch. org, where one would find member supplied information thus indicating that someone descended from that person or persons had become a Mormon and submitted their ancestors, is free.   what the jewish people were objecting to where the member supplied information and registration of Jewish ancestors as Mormons.  Just as you won't find too many Catholic ancestors in the Mormon database, you won't find many Jewish ancestors. 

        Look around and you can probably find the program "The Mormons" on a PBS DVD or maybe even your local library might have it in their collection.  It takes a lot of the mystery out of the Mormon faith which so many of us rely on for our research materials but know so little about.  This is from the PBS Store http://www.shoppbs. org/ - The Mormons Single DVD  Item No. MORM601 - Description:
        The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is one of America's fastest growing religions, and its influence circles the globe. Yet the birth of Mormonism and its history is one of America's great neglected narratives. This four-hour documentary brings together FRONTLINE and AMERICAN EXPERIENCE in their first co-production to provide a searching portrait of this fascinating but often misunderstood religion.



        Ancestry databases are records, periodicals, rare books, family genealogies, directories, maps, etc most of which would be otherwise inaccessible to most people by virtue of geographic separation from where the ancestors lived and the time constraints of trying to get in where the materials are during the hours a repository is open.  For example, what Ancestry has are numerous databases such as the Drouin, US, English and Canadian censuses, digitized forms of publications such as the rare early 5 volume 20th century publication "Staten Island and Its People : A History, 1609-1929" or Arnold's "Vital Record of Rhode Island, 1636-1850, First Series, Births, Marriages and Deaths : a Family Register for the People".

        An Ancestry subscription can it's place in one's research.  As much as I love the American French Genealogical Society up in Woonsocket, it's having the Drouin available to me 24/7 through my Ancestry subscription that has gotten me where I am with the Fre-Can ancestors.  Ancestry can't replace the AFGS but it certainly has gotten me light years ahead in that line of research now that I don't have to wait to get time to get into the AFGS when they're open and when I do get in, I can make better use of the trip expanding upon what are know known and confirmed ancestors.

        As far as what "Vault" means, I'm still trying to find that out without bringing attention to the Itri films at my FHC that are now listed as "Vault" on the familysearch. org web site.  I was pleased to see when I did my earlier reply that films that had been "Vault" on the weekend had changed in designation but still none to happy to see that nearly all the Processetti are now "Vault".  However, it's a whole lot easier to live without access to the Processetti than without the BMD films.

        Linda


        marie saccoccio <saccocciom@yahoo. com> wrote:
        Linda, I find this fascinating and distrubing as I really did not know about the posthumous baptisms.  I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this.  Also, when you say the films for Itri are now in the VAULT, do you mean they are no longer available for the online database that one pays for?? 
         
        Don't kid yourself, the Mormons have grown very rich off their database.  I am sure that finances so many of their endeavors.  I would love to see the financials on ancestry.com.  Let me see if I can find anything on that subject.
         
        Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based on objections, since they make so much money off it.  Exclsion of every group that objects would dent into their profit margin. 
         
        Marie  

        Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
        Why indeed?  If I were urber-suspicious, I'd think that it had something to do with the PBS running of the program on the Mormons and the Italian government objecting to the films being out there since the information in them is used by Mormons to have their ancestors posthumously baptized into the Mormon faith.  Somehow, though, I think it just a mundane coincidence that PBS stations around here ran the Mormon program at least 4 times a couple of weeks back that I remember. 

        That's not to say that there haven't been some groups that have objected to having their people recorded for posterity as Mormons.  People of the Jewish faith took great exception to having their ancestors listed as "Mormon" and those people have been removed from the Mormon registers.  Now, only if a former member of the Jewish faith submits their own personal ancestors, does a Jewish ancestor get baptized a Mormon.  When I saw that segment in the program I thought the speaker's attitude a bit pompus.  after all, those ancestors might be that Mormon member's ancestors BUT they are also the ancestors of other people who are of the Jewish faith and might object just as deeply to having their ancestors' faith changed and having someone 100 years from now think that these folks were always Mormon.

        I cringe every time the whole thing about the posthumous baptism gets widespread mention such as on the PBS program because I'm afraid that if too many people or religious groups got their backs ups and started complaining and demanding that their ancestors be struck from the registers of Mormons as was done with those of the Jewish faith, that the access to all the materials that we now enjoy will be denied those who are not Mormon.  My whole take on the thing is that if someone died a Lutheran, Catholic, Buddhist, Shinto, Episcopalian, Methodist or whatever and had considered themselves in life and had practiced that faith in their lifetime, then someone coming along 100 years later and baptizing them without their knowledge or consent really doesn't change a thing of what happened in the past and is pointless but if it puts someone else at ease within their chosen religion, I can't see much harm in it.


        But I do see a great deal of harm to people's research if access to the information in the films is denied.  I wonder if it's just the films on Itri or all the Italian films?

        Linda


        marie saccoccio <saccocciom@yahoo. com> wrote:
        I did some searching and there is a vault outside of Salt Lake City where these are kept.  It actually is a whole in the side of a mountain to protect them.  Looks kind of space age!!!  When you go to Salt Lake City you can view them but you have to order them before hand.  It says that some are chosen for safekeeping.  I bet there is more to this than meets the eye!!  Why Itri of all places?? 
         
        Marie  

        Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
        I think so...I went in one day when Verna was pulling films and I asked her about what she was doing and she showed me a list that had come from Salt Lake that our director wanted the volunteers to pull.  U know what a stickler he seems to be.  I'm afraid to ask and bring attention to the films...I wish there were some way we could spirit them out of there and have bootlegs made...I'd definitely want to share the cost especially if the alternative is having all that information locked away where we can't see it any more.

        Linda

        Jason Soscia <jsoscia3@yahoo. com> wrote:
        Can they really recall them back to Salt Lake?  I paid for most of those Itri films to be kept there indefinitely.

        miyukichan0987 <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
        I noticed while composing a response to our newest member, Martine,
        that quite a few of the films for Itri now say "VAULT INTL Film"
        rather than "FHL INTL Film'.

        I do know that under certain circumstances, films that were previously
        available to research, suddenly become restricted for reasons no one
        aka the volunteers at my FHC has been able to tell me because they
        don't know either. They just get notices from Salt Lake telling them
        to pull the films and return them to the FHL.

        If these films that are now "Vault" are to be restricted it would be a
        major blow to all of us trying to research our ancestors in Itri! It
        has been frustrating enough for me that I can only research the period
        between 1809 -1865 but now to lose a major portion of the films of
        that period would be an insurmountable research tragedy!

        15 of the 26 films of records for Itri are now designated "Vault". I
        called my FHC to see if that means the records are no longer available
        but the volunteer did not know what "Vault" meant with respect to
        films already on loan. So far, the Itrani films at the Warwick, RI
        FHC that are on "Indefinite" loan and which constitute nearly a
        complete set of all the 26 films available, all seem to still be there.

        However, since I don't know if they will at some point in the near
        future be ordered pulled from the files and sent back to Salt Lake,
        I'm going to start living at the FHC because I am far from done with
        searching through those films.

        Can anyone tell the rest of us if "Vault" means that we are about to
        lose access to over 50% of the available films on Itri or not??

        Linda



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        Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.



        Marie Elena Saccoccio

        Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.


        Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.



        Marie Elena Saccoccio

        Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.


        Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.



        Marie Elena Saccoccio


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      • Linda Peloquin
        Marie, It was run several times just a couple of weeks ago...guess you missed it. Both WGBH, Boston and WSBE, RI ran it a couple of times each. On those days
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 11, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Marie,

          It was run several times just a couple of weeks ago...guess you missed it.  Both WGBH, Boston and WSBE, RI ran it a couple of times each.  On those days they ran it during normal evening hours & then repeated it during the red eye hours.  I know 'cause I zonked trying to stay awake watching it, woke up and it was still on so I finished watching the program thinking I'd only missed a few minutes.  Only later did I realize that when I had woken-up , what I woke-up during was the second showing of the night during the red eye hours.  I was mightily disoriented that night after my two installment sleep delayed viewing of the show and needed a caffeine IV the next day!!!

          Linda

          marie saccoccio <saccocciom@...> wrote:
          LInda, I see that there has been a dispute between Ancestry and "the Mormons."  I now have no idea who really owns Ancestry.  Perhaps SEC filings would share some light on this. I am curious.
           
          I sort of watched the PBS special on Mormons when it was on TV in Boston.  Mitt Romney was our governor, then presidential candidate so it was good to see.  I would like to watch it again though as I missed some parts.
           
          Marie
           
           
           
          Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
          Marie,

          "I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this."  I don't think there's a problem there because of all the Catholic names I've run on familysearch. org, the only time any of them have come up has been in connection with an IGI (International Genealogical Index) take directly from primary source records.  Although I'm sure it happens that people who were Catholic have converted to the Mormon faith and there are Catholic ancestors who are also now Mormons, apparently none of them share ancestors with me or my husband.   The returns on the results page would say "member supplied" somewhere on the individual page for the person.  I just don't think Catholics have flocked to the Mormon religion in the numbers that other faiths have. 

          For example, if you run my great-grandfather, Luigi Cannella, this is what you get for a result:  LUIGI CANNELLA - International Genealogical Index / SE
          Gender: Male Marriage: 08 SEP 1849 Itri, Latina, Italy. 

          When you click on his name the page you get tells you basically the same thing but because it is for a marriage so you also get: Spouse:  MARIA LORETA CARDI    Marriage:  08 SEP 1849   Itri, Latina, Italy

          And at the bottom, the source of this information which is one of the Itri films of primary source records: Batch No.:  M840603    Dates: 1840 - 1861    Source Call No.: 1173755    Type:  Film; which is this film -> Matrimoni ag. 1840-1861 FHL INTL Film 1173755.

          As far as I'm concerned, if someone was born Catholic, lived life as a Catholic and died in the Catholic faith or any other faith for that matter, something someone does many decades farther down the road isn't going to change that fact that they were Catholics.  It's after the fact and it's not going to change a single thing that has transpired in the past.  I look at it rather like having dual citizenship or two passports... one for the US and one for Italy for those folks who qualify.

          " no longer available for the on line database that one pays for??"   I guess you're talking about the Generations Network sites here?   I had asked one of the volunteers at my FHC whom I knew was a Mormon if the Mormon's owned what Ancestry and it's sister sites' parent company was then known as "My Family.com" and was told "No" and that the FHC's had to pay for their access to Ancestry which she thought was unfair given that most of the content on Ancestry & company was materials that the Mormons had given them access to.

          At any rate, none of the Itri material has ever been available through the pay sites of Ancestry or Genealogy.  I wish it were since it would be much more convenient.  I've gotten tons more research done on Hubby's French Canadian ancestors now that Ancestry has the Drouin* Collection on line.  *The Drouin Institute of Montréal when out in the 1930-1940's and filmed every repertoire aka parish register that was in existence at the time for the whole of Quebec.  The repertoire were, up into the 20th century, the official vital records of Quebec so with the Drouin films, it is possible to trace one's Fre-Can ancestors back to the beginning of New France and the first ancestors to come over from France in the 1600's.   I have often times wished that there existed something similar for Itri and Italy.

          "Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based on objections,. ..."  familysearch. org, where one would find member supplied information thus indicating that someone descended from that person or persons had become a Mormon and submitted their ancestors, is free.   what the jewish people were objecting to where the member supplied information and registration of Jewish ancestors as Mormons.  Just as you won't find too many Catholic ancestors in the Mormon database, you won't find many Jewish ancestors. 

          Look around and you can probably find the program "The Mormons" on a PBS DVD or maybe even your local library might have it in their collection.  It takes a lot of the mystery out of the Mormon faith which so many of us rely on for our research materials but know so little about.  This is from the PBS Store http://www.shoppbs. org/ - The Mormons Single DVD  Item No. MORM601 - Description:
          The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is one of America's fastest growing religions, and its influence circles the globe. Yet the birth of Mormonism and its history is one of America's great neglected narratives. This four-hour documentary brings together FRONTLINE and AMERICAN EXPERIENCE in their first co-production to provide a searching portrait of this fascinating but often misunderstood religion.



          Ancestry databases are records, periodicals, rare books, family genealogies, directories, maps, etc most of which would be otherwise inaccessible to most people by virtue of geographic separation from where the ancestors lived and the time constraints of trying to get in where the materials are during the hours a repository is open.  For example, what Ancestry has are numerous databases such as the Drouin, US, English and Canadian censuses, digitized forms of publications such as the rare early 5 volume 20th century publication "Staten Island and Its People : A History, 1609-1929" or Arnold's "Vital Record of Rhode Island, 1636-1850, First Series, Births, Marriages and Deaths : a Family Register for the People".

          An Ancestry subscription can it's place in one's research.  As much as I love the American French Genealogical Society up in Woonsocket, it's having the Drouin available to me 24/7 through my Ancestry subscription that has gotten me where I am with the Fre-Can ancestors.  Ancestry can't replace the AFGS but it certainly has gotten me light years ahead in that line of research now that I don't have to wait to get time to get into the AFGS when they're open and when I do get in, I can make better use of the trip expanding upon what are know known and confirmed ancestors.

          As far as what "Vault" means, I'm still trying to find that out without bringing attention to the Itri films at my FHC that are now listed as "Vault" on the familysearch. org web site.  I was pleased to see when I did my earlier reply that films that had been "Vault" on the weekend had changed in designation but still none to happy to see that nearly all the Processetti are now "Vault".  However, it's a whole lot easier to live without access to the Processetti than without the BMD films.

          Linda


          marie saccoccio <saccocciom@yahoo. com> wrote:
          Linda, I find this fascinating and distrubing as I really did not know about the posthumous baptisms.  I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this.  Also, when you say the films for Itri are now in the VAULT, do you mean they are no longer available for the online database that one pays for?? 
           
          Don't kid yourself, the Mormons have grown very rich off their database.  I am sure that finances so many of their endeavors.  I would love to see the financials on ancestry.com.  Let me see if I can find anything on that subject.
           
          Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based on objections, since they make so much money off it.  Exclsion of every group that objects would dent into their profit margin. 
           
          Marie  

          Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
          Why indeed?  If I were urber-suspicious, I'd think that it had something to do with the PBS running of the program on the Mormons and the Italian government objecting to the films being out there since the information in them is used by Mormons to have their ancestors posthumously baptized into the Mormon faith.  Somehow, though, I think it just a mundane coincidence that PBS stations around here ran the Mormon program at least 4 times a couple of weeks back that I remember. 

          That's not to say that there haven't been some groups that have objected to having their people recorded for posterity as Mormons.  People of the Jewish faith took great exception to having their ancestors listed as "Mormon" and those people have been removed from the Mormon registers.  Now, only if a former member of the Jewish faith submits their own personal ancestors, does a Jewish ancestor get baptized a Mormon.  When I saw that segment in the program I thought the speaker's attitude a bit pompus.  after all, those ancestors might be that Mormon member's ancestors BUT they are also the ancestors of other people who are of the Jewish faith and might object just as deeply to having their ancestors' faith changed and having someone 100 years from now think that these folks were always Mormon.

          I cringe every time the whole thing about the posthumous baptism gets widespread mention such as on the PBS program because I'm afraid that if too many people or religious groups got their backs ups and started complaining and demanding that their ancestors be struck from the registers of Mormons as was done with those of the Jewish faith, that the access to all the materials that we now enjoy will be denied those who are not Mormon.  My whole take on the thing is that if someone died a Lutheran, Catholic, Buddhist, Shinto, Episcopalian, Methodist or whatever and had considered themselves in life and had practiced that faith in their lifetime, then someone coming along 100 years later and baptizing them without their knowledge or consent really doesn't change a thing of what happened in the past and is pointless but if it puts someone else at ease within their chosen religion, I can't see much harm in it.


          But I do see a great deal of harm to people's research if access to the information in the films is denied.  I wonder if it's just the films on Itri or all the Italian films?

          Linda


          marie saccoccio <saccocciom@yahoo. com> wrote:
          I did some searching and there is a vault outside of Salt Lake City where these are kept.  It actually is a whole in the side of a mountain to protect them.  Looks kind of space age!!!  When you go to Salt Lake City you can view them but you have to order them before hand.  It says that some are chosen for safekeeping.  I bet there is more to this than meets the eye!!  Why Itri of all places?? 
           
          Marie  

          Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
          I think so...I went in one day when Verna was pulling films and I asked her about what she was doing and she showed me a list that had come from Salt Lake that our director wanted the volunteers to pull.  U know what a stickler he seems to be.  I'm afraid to ask and bring attention to the films...I wish there were some way we could spirit them out of there and have bootlegs made...I'd definitely want to share the cost especially if the alternative is having all that information locked away where we can't see it any more.

          Linda

          Jason Soscia <jsoscia3@yahoo. com> wrote:
          Can they really recall them back to Salt Lake?  I paid for most of those Itri films to be kept there indefinitely.

          miyukichan0987 <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
          I noticed while composing a response to our newest member, Martine,
          that quite a few of the films for Itri now say "VAULT INTL Film"
          rather than "FHL INTL Film'.

          I do know that under certain circumstances, films that were previously
          available to research, suddenly become restricted for reasons no one
          aka the volunteers at my FHC has been able to tell me because they
          don't know either. They just get notices from Salt Lake telling them
          to pull the films and return them to the FHL.

          If these films that are now "Vault" are to be restricted it would be a
          major blow to all of us trying to research our ancestors in Itri! It
          has been frustrating enough for me that I can only research the period
          between 1809 -1865 but now to lose a major portion of the films of
          that period would be an insurmountable research tragedy!

          15 of the 26 films of records for Itri are now designated "Vault". I
          called my FHC to see if that means the records are no longer available
          but the volunteer did not know what "Vault" meant with respect to
          films already on loan. So far, the Itrani films at the Warwick, RI
          FHC that are on "Indefinite" loan and which constitute nearly a
          complete set of all the 26 films available, all seem to still be there.

          However, since I don't know if they will at some point in the near
          future be ordered pulled from the files and sent back to Salt Lake,
          I'm going to start living at the FHC because I am far from done with
          searching through those films.

          Can anyone tell the rest of us if "Vault" means that we are about to
          lose access to over 50% of the available films on Itri or not??

          Linda



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          Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.



          Marie Elena Saccoccio

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          Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

        • marie saccoccio
          LOL My recollection of it was that it was rather boring but informative. I should pay more attention next time. Linda Peloquin
          Message 4 of 14 , Mar 11, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            LOL  My recollection of it was that it was rather boring but informative.  I should pay more attention next time.   

            Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@...> wrote:
            Marie,

            It was run several times just a couple of weeks ago...guess you missed it.  Both WGBH, Boston and WSBE, RI ran it a couple of times each.  On those days they ran it during normal evening hours & then repeated it during the red eye hours.  I know 'cause I zonked trying to stay awake watching it, woke up and it was still on so I finished watching the program thinking I'd only missed a few minutes.  Only later did I realize that when I had woken-up , what I woke-up during was the second showing of the night during the red eye hours.  I was mightily disoriented that night after my two installment sleep delayed viewing of the show and needed a caffeine IV the next day!!!

            Linda

            marie saccoccio <saccocciom@yahoo. com> wrote:
            LInda, I see that there has been a dispute between Ancestry and "the Mormons."  I now have no idea who really owns Ancestry.  Perhaps SEC filings would share some light on this. I am curious.
             
            I sort of watched the PBS special on Mormons when it was on TV in Boston.  Mitt Romney was our governor, then presidential candidate so it was good to see.  I would like to watch it again though as I missed some parts.
             
            Marie
             
             
             
            Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
            Marie,

            "I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this."  I don't think there's a problem there because of all the Catholic names I've run on familysearch. org, the only time any of them have come up has been in connection with an IGI (International Genealogical Index) take directly from primary source records.  Although I'm sure it happens that people who were Catholic have converted to the Mormon faith and there are Catholic ancestors who are also now Mormons, apparently none of them share ancestors with me or my husband.   The returns on the results page would say "member supplied" somewhere on the individual page for the person.  I just don't think Catholics have flocked to the Mormon religion in the numbers that other faiths have. 

            For example, if you run my great-grandfather, Luigi Cannella, this is what you get for a result:  LUIGI CANNELLA - International Genealogical Index / SE
            Gender: Male Marriage: 08 SEP 1849 Itri, Latina, Italy. 

            When you click on his name the page you get tells you basically the same thing but because it is for a marriage so you also get: Spouse:  MARIA LORETA CARDI    Marriage:  08 SEP 1849   Itri, Latina, Italy

            And at the bottom, the source of this information which is one of the Itri films of primary source records: Batch No.:  M840603    Dates: 1840 - 1861    Source Call No.: 1173755    Type:  Film; which is this film -> Matrimoni ag. 1840-1861 FHL INTL Film 1173755.

            As far as I'm concerned, if someone was born Catholic, lived life as a Catholic and died in the Catholic faith or any other faith for that matter, something someone does many decades farther down the road isn't going to change that fact that they were Catholics.  It's after the fact and it's not going to change a single thing that has transpired in the past.  I look at it rather like having dual citizenship or two passports... one for the US and one for Italy for those folks who qualify.

            " no longer available for the on line database that one pays for??"   I guess you're talking about the Generations Network sites here?   I had asked one of the volunteers at my FHC whom I knew was a Mormon if the Mormon's owned what Ancestry and it's sister sites' parent company was then known as "My Family.com" and was told "No" and that the FHC's had to pay for their access to Ancestry which she thought was unfair given that most of the content on Ancestry & company was materials that the Mormons had given them access to.

            At any rate, none of the Itri material has ever been available through the pay sites of Ancestry or Genealogy.  I wish it were since it would be much more convenient.  I've gotten tons more research done on Hubby's French Canadian ancestors now that Ancestry has the Drouin* Collection on line.  *The Drouin Institute of Montréal when out in the 1930-1940's and filmed every repertoire aka parish register that was in existence at the time for the whole of Quebec.  The repertoire were, up into the 20th century, the official vital records of Quebec so with the Drouin films, it is possible to trace one's Fre-Can ancestors back to the beginning of New France and the first ancestors to come over from France in the 1600's.   I have often times wished that there existed something similar for Itri and Italy.

            "Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based on objections,. ..."  familysearch. org, where one would find member supplied information thus indicating that someone descended from that person or persons had become a Mormon and submitted their ancestors, is free.   what the jewish people were objecting to where the member supplied information and registration of Jewish ancestors as Mormons.  Just as you won't find too many Catholic ancestors in the Mormon database, you won't find many Jewish ancestors. 

            Look around and you can probably find the program "The Mormons" on a PBS DVD or maybe even your local library might have it in their collection.  It takes a lot of the mystery out of the Mormon faith which so many of us rely on for our research materials but know so little about.  This is from the PBS Store http://www.shoppbs. org/ - The Mormons Single DVD  Item No. MORM601 - Description:
            The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is one of America's fastest growing religions, and its influence circles the globe. Yet the birth of Mormonism and its history is one of America's great neglected narratives. This four-hour documentary brings together FRONTLINE and AMERICAN EXPERIENCE in their first co-production to provide a searching portrait of this fascinating but often misunderstood religion.



            Ancestry databases are records, periodicals, rare books, family genealogies, directories, maps, etc most of which would be otherwise inaccessible to most people by virtue of geographic separation from where the ancestors lived and the time constraints of trying to get in where the materials are during the hours a repository is open.  For example, what Ancestry has are numerous databases such as the Drouin, US, English and Canadian censuses, digitized forms of publications such as the rare early 5 volume 20th century publication "Staten Island and Its People : A History, 1609-1929" or Arnold's "Vital Record of Rhode Island, 1636-1850, First Series, Births, Marriages and Deaths : a Family Register for the People".

            An Ancestry subscription can it's place in one's research.  As much as I love the American French Genealogical Society up in Woonsocket, it's having the Drouin available to me 24/7 through my Ancestry subscription that has gotten me where I am with the Fre-Can ancestors.  Ancestry can't replace the AFGS but it certainly has gotten me light years ahead in that line of research now that I don't have to wait to get time to get into the AFGS when they're open and when I do get in, I can make better use of the trip expanding upon what are know known and confirmed ancestors.

            As far as what "Vault" means, I'm still trying to find that out without bringing attention to the Itri films at my FHC that are now listed as "Vault" on the familysearch. org web site.  I was pleased to see when I did my earlier reply that films that had been "Vault" on the weekend had changed in designation but still none to happy to see that nearly all the Processetti are now "Vault".  However, it's a whole lot easier to live without access to the Processetti than without the BMD films.

            Linda


            marie saccoccio <saccocciom@yahoo. com> wrote:
            Linda, I find this fascinating and distrubing as I really did not know about the posthumous baptisms.  I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this.  Also, when you say the films for Itri are now in the VAULT, do you mean they are no longer available for the online database that one pays for?? 
             
            Don't kid yourself, the Mormons have grown very rich off their database.  I am sure that finances so many of their endeavors.  I would love to see the financials on ancestry.com.  Let me see if I can find anything on that subject.
             
            Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based on objections, since they make so much money off it.  Exclsion of every group that objects would dent into their profit margin. 
             
            Marie  

            Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
            Why indeed?  If I were urber-suspicious, I'd think that it had something to do with the PBS running of the program on the Mormons and the Italian government objecting to the films being out there since the information in them is used by Mormons to have their ancestors posthumously baptized into the Mormon faith.  Somehow, though, I think it just a mundane coincidence that PBS stations around here ran the Mormon program at least 4 times a couple of weeks back that I remember. 

            That's not to say that there haven't been some groups that have objected to having their people recorded for posterity as Mormons.  People of the Jewish faith took great exception to having their ancestors listed as "Mormon" and those people have been removed from the Mormon registers.  Now, only if a former member of the Jewish faith submits their own personal ancestors, does a Jewish ancestor get baptized a Mormon.  When I saw that segment in the program I thought the speaker's attitude a bit pompus.  after all, those ancestors might be that Mormon member's ancestors BUT they are also the ancestors of other people who are of the Jewish faith and might object just as deeply to having their ancestors' faith changed and having someone 100 years from now think that these folks were always Mormon.

            I cringe every time the whole thing about the posthumous baptism gets widespread mention such as on the PBS program because I'm afraid that if too many people or religious groups got their backs ups and started complaining and demanding that their ancestors be struck from the registers of Mormons as was done with those of the Jewish faith, that the access to all the materials that we now enjoy will be denied those who are not Mormon.  My whole take on the thing is that if someone died a Lutheran, Catholic, Buddhist, Shinto, Episcopalian, Methodist or whatever and had considered themselves in life and had practiced that faith in their lifetime, then someone coming along 100 years later and baptizing them without their knowledge or consent really doesn't change a thing of what happened in the past and is pointless but if it puts someone else at ease within their chosen religion, I can't see much harm in it.


            But I do see a great deal of harm to people's research if access to the information in the films is denied.  I wonder if it's just the films on Itri or all the Italian films?

            Linda


            marie saccoccio <saccocciom@yahoo. com> wrote:
            I did some searching and there is a vault outside of Salt Lake City where these are kept.  It actually is a whole in the side of a mountain to protect them.  Looks kind of space age!!!  When you go to Salt Lake City you can view them but you have to order them before hand.  It says that some are chosen for safekeeping.  I bet there is more to this than meets the eye!!  Why Itri of all places?? 
             
            Marie  

            Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
            I think so...I went in one day when Verna was pulling films and I asked her about what she was doing and she showed me a list that had come from Salt Lake that our director wanted the volunteers to pull.  U know what a stickler he seems to be.  I'm afraid to ask and bring attention to the films...I wish there were some way we could spirit them out of there and have bootlegs made...I'd definitely want to share the cost especially if the alternative is having all that information locked away where we can't see it any more.

            Linda

            Jason Soscia <jsoscia3@yahoo. com> wrote:
            Can they really recall them back to Salt Lake?  I paid for most of those Itri films to be kept there indefinitely.

            miyukichan0987 <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
            I noticed while composing a response to our newest member, Martine,
            that quite a few of the films for Itri now say "VAULT INTL Film"
            rather than "FHL INTL Film'.

            I do know that under certain circumstances, films that were previously
            available to research, suddenly become restricted for reasons no one
            aka the volunteers at my FHC has been able to tell me because they
            don't know either. They just get notices from Salt Lake telling them
            to pull the films and return them to the FHL.

            If these films that are now "Vault" are to be restricted it would be a
            major blow to all of us trying to research our ancestors in Itri! It
            has been frustrating enough for me that I can only research the period
            between 1809 -1865 but now to lose a major portion of the films of
            that period would be an insurmountable research tragedy!

            15 of the 26 films of records for Itri are now designated "Vault". I
            called my FHC to see if that means the records are no longer available
            but the volunteer did not know what "Vault" meant with respect to
            films already on loan. So far, the Itrani films at the Warwick, RI
            FHC that are on "Indefinite" loan and which constitute nearly a
            complete set of all the 26 films available, all seem to still be there.

            However, since I don't know if they will at some point in the near
            future be ordered pulled from the files and sent back to Salt Lake,
            I'm going to start living at the FHC because I am far from done with
            searching through those films.

            Can anyone tell the rest of us if "Vault" means that we are about to
            lose access to over 50% of the available films on Itri or not??

            Linda



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            Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.



            Marie Elena Saccoccio

            Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.


            Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.



            Marie Elena Saccoccio

            Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.


            Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.



            Marie Elena Saccoccio

            Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.


            Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.



            Marie Elena Saccoccio


            Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

          • rickj100001
            Linda, After reading these posts regarding the VAULT v. FHL categories on the family search website, I also became a little alarmed. I don t know why
            Message 5 of 14 , Mar 16, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Linda,

              After reading these posts regarding the "VAULT" v. "FHL" categories
              on the family search website, I also became a little alarmed. I
              don't know why certain films are categorized the way they are, and I
              doubt that the volunteers at my local FHC would know either.

              But I have a printout of the FHL Catalog for Itri that I generated
              on 7/1/07. The printout shows almost all of the Processetti films
              (save for the two earliest), two Nati films (1824-1831 and 1832-
              1839) and two Morti films (ag. 1827 - magg. 1846 and 1857-1861)
              listed as "VAULT INTL."

              Since the date of that printout, I have ordered and viewed all of
              the Nati and Morti films (including those listed as VAULT INTL)
              without any problem, and none were pulled from the files prior to my
              consent (currently I have two Processetti films listed as VAULT on
              indefinite loan without any problems).

              So whatever the reasons for the categorizing of these films, it does
              not mean that they are unavailable outside of Salt Lake City. Again,
              I don't know what it means, but I haven't had a problem ordering
              films categorized as VAULT.

              Hope this puts everyone a little more at ease.

              Rick


              --- In FraDiavolo@yahoogroups.com, marie saccoccio <saccocciom@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > LOL My recollection of it was that it was rather boring but
              informative. I should pay more attention next time.
              >
              > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@...> wrote: Marie,
              >
              > It was run several times just a couple of weeks ago...guess you
              missed it. Both WGBH, Boston and WSBE, RI ran it a couple of times
              each. On those days they ran it during normal evening hours & then
              repeated it during the red eye hours. I know 'cause I zonked trying
              to stay awake watching it, woke up and it was still on so I finished
              watching the program thinking I'd only missed a few minutes. Only
              later did I realize that when I had woken-up , what I woke-up during
              was the second showing of the night during the red eye hours. I was
              mightily disoriented that night after my two installment sleep
              delayed viewing of the show and needed a caffeine IV the next day!!!
              >
              > Linda
              >
              > marie saccoccio <saccocciom@...> wrote:
              > LInda, I see that there has been a dispute between Ancestry
              and "the Mormons." I now have no idea who really owns Ancestry.
              Perhaps SEC filings would share some light on this. I am curious.
              >
              > I sort of watched the PBS special on Mormons when it was on TV
              in Boston. Mitt Romney was our governor, then presidential
              candidate so it was good to see. I would like to watch it again
              though as I missed some parts.
              >
              > Marie
              >
              >
              >
              > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@...> wrote:
              > Marie,
              >
              > "I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this." I don't think
              there's a problem there because of all the Catholic names I've run
              on familysearch.org, the only time any of them have come up has been
              in connection with an IGI (International Genealogical Index) take
              directly from primary source records. Although I'm sure it happens
              that people who were Catholic have converted to the Mormon faith and
              there are Catholic ancestors who are also now Mormons, apparently
              none of them share ancestors with me or my husband. The returns on
              the results page would say "member supplied" somewhere on the
              individual page for the person. I just don't think Catholics have
              flocked to the Mormon religion in the numbers that other faiths
              have.
              >
              > For example, if you run my great-grandfather, Luigi Cannella, this
              is what you get for a result: LUIGI CANNELLA - International
              Genealogical Index / SE
              > Gender: Male Marriage: 08 SEP 1849 Itri, Latina, Italy.
              >
              > When you click on his name the page you get tells you basically
              the same thing but because it is for a marriage so you also get:
              Spouse: MARIA LORETA CARDI Marriage: 08 SEP 1849 Itri,
              Latina, Italy
              >
              > And at the bottom, the source of this information which is one of
              the Itri films of primary source records: Batch No.: M840603
              Dates: 1840 - 1861 Source Call No.: 1173755 Type: Film; which
              is this film -> Matrimoni ag. 1840-1861 FHL INTL Film 1173755.
              >
              > As far as I'm concerned, if someone was born Catholic, lived life
              as a Catholic and died in the Catholic faith or any other faith for
              that matter, something someone does many decades farther down the
              road isn't going to change that fact that they were Catholics. It's
              after the fact and it's not going to change a single thing that has
              transpired in the past. I look at it rather like having dual
              citizenship or two passports...one for the US and one for Italy for
              those folks who qualify.
              >
              > " no longer available for the on line database that one pays
              for??" I guess you're talking about the Generations Network sites
              here? I had asked one of the volunteers at my FHC whom I knew was
              a Mormon if the Mormon's owned what Ancestry and it's sister sites'
              parent company was then known as "My Family.com" and was told "No"
              and that the FHC's had to pay for their access to Ancestry which she
              thought was unfair given that most of the content on Ancestry &
              company was materials that the Mormons had given them access to.
              >
              > At any rate, none of the Itri material has ever been available
              through the pay sites of Ancestry or Genealogy. I wish it were
              since it would be much more convenient. I've gotten tons more
              research done on Hubby's French Canadian ancestors now that Ancestry
              has the Drouin* Collection on line. *The Drouin Institute of
              Montréal when out in the 1930-1940's and filmed every repertoire
              aka parish register that was in existence at the time for the whole
              of Quebec. The repertoire were, up into the 20th century, the
              official vital records of Quebec so with the Drouin films, it is
              possible to trace one's Fre-Can ancestors back to the beginning of
              New France and the first ancestors to come over from France in the
              1600's. I have often times wished that there existed something
              similar for Itri and Italy.
              >
              > "Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based
              on objections,...." familysearch.org, where one would find member
              supplied information thus indicating that someone descended from
              that person or persons had become a Mormon and submitted their
              ancestors, is free. what the jewish people were objecting to where
              the member supplied information and registration of Jewish ancestors
              as Mormons. Just as you won't find too many Catholic ancestors in
              the Mormon database, you won't find many Jewish ancestors.
              >
              > Look around and you can probably find the program "The Mormons" on
              a PBS DVD or maybe even your local library might have it in their
              collection. It takes a lot of the mystery out of the Mormon faith
              which so many of us rely on for our research materials but know so
              little about. This is from the PBS Store http://www.shoppbs.org/ -
              The Mormons Single DVD Item No. MORM601 - Description: The Church
              of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is one of America's fastest
              growing religions, and its influence circles the globe. Yet the
              birth of Mormonism and its history is one of America's great
              neglected narratives. This four-hour documentary brings together
              FRONTLINE and AMERICAN EXPERIENCE in their first co-production to
              provide a searching portrait of this fascinating but often
              misunderstood religion.
              >
              >
              >
              > Ancestry databases are records, periodicals, rare books, family
              genealogies, directories, maps, etc most of which would be otherwise
              inaccessible to most people by virtue of geographic separation from
              where the ancestors lived and the time constraints of trying to get
              in where the materials are during the hours a repository is open.
              For example, what Ancestry has are numerous databases such as the
              Drouin, US, English and Canadian censuses, digitized forms of
              publications such as the rare early 5 volume 20th century
              publication "Staten Island and Its People : A History, 1609-1929" or
              Arnold's "Vital Record of Rhode Island, 1636-1850, First Series,
              Births, Marriages and Deaths : a Family Register for the People".
              >
              > An Ancestry subscription can it's place in one's research. As
              much as I love the American French Genealogical Society up in
              Woonsocket, it's having the Drouin available to me 24/7 through my
              Ancestry subscription that has gotten me where I am with the Fre-Can
              ancestors. Ancestry can't replace the AFGS but it certainly has
              gotten me light years ahead in that line of research now that I
              don't have to wait to get time to get into the AFGS when they're
              open and when I do get in, I can make better use of the trip
              expanding upon what are know known and confirmed ancestors.
              >
              > As far as what "Vault" means, I'm still trying to find that out
              without bringing attention to the Itri films at my FHC that are now
              listed as "Vault" on the familysearch.org web site. I was pleased
              to see when I did my earlier reply that films that had been "Vault"
              on the weekend had changed in designation but still none to happy to
              see that nearly all the Processetti are now "Vault". However, it's
              a whole lot easier to live without access to the Processetti than
              without the BMD films.
              >
              > Linda
              >
              >
              > marie saccoccio <saccocciom@...> wrote:
              > Linda, I find this fascinating and distrubing as I really did
              not know about the posthumous baptisms. I am sure the Vatican would
              not approve of this. Also, when you say the films for Itri are now
              in the VAULT, do you mean they are no longer available for the
              online database that one pays for??
              >
              > Don't kid yourself, the Mormons have grown very rich off their
              database. I am sure that finances so many of their endeavors. I
              would love to see the financials on ancestry.com. Let me see if I
              can find anything on that subject.
              >
              > Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based
              on objections, since they make so much money off it. Exclsion of
              every group that objects would dent into their profit margin.
              >
              > Marie
              >
              > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@...> wrote:
              > Why indeed? If I were urber-suspicious, I'd think that it
              had something to do with the PBS running of the program on the
              Mormons and the Italian government objecting to the films being out
              there since the information in them is used by Mormons to have their
              ancestors posthumously baptized into the Mormon faith. Somehow,
              though, I think it just a mundane coincidence that PBS stations
              around here ran the Mormon program at least 4 times a couple of
              weeks back that I remember.
              >
              > That's not to say that there haven't been some groups that have
              objected to having their people recorded for posterity as Mormons.
              People of the Jewish faith took great exception to having their
              ancestors listed as "Mormon" and those people have been removed from
              the Mormon registers. Now, only if a former member of the Jewish
              faith submits their own personal ancestors, does a Jewish ancestor
              get baptized a Mormon. When I saw that segment in the program I
              thought the speaker's attitude a bit pompus. after all, those
              ancestors might be that Mormon member's ancestors BUT they are also
              the ancestors of other people who are of the Jewish faith and might
              object just as deeply to having their ancestors' faith changed and
              having someone 100 years from now think that these folks were always
              Mormon.
              >
              > I cringe every time the whole thing about the posthumous baptism
              gets widespread mention such as on the PBS program because I'm
              afraid that if too many people or religious groups got their backs
              ups and started complaining and demanding that their ancestors be
              struck from the registers of Mormons as was done with those of the
              Jewish faith, that the access to all the materials that we now enjoy
              will be denied those who are not Mormon. My whole take on the thing
              is that if someone died a Lutheran, Catholic, Buddhist, Shinto,
              Episcopalian, Methodist or whatever and had considered themselves in
              life and had practiced that faith in their lifetime, then someone
              coming along 100 years later and baptizing them without their
              knowledge or consent really doesn't change a thing of what happened
              in the past and is pointless but if it puts someone else at ease
              within their chosen religion, I can't see much harm in it.
              >
              >
              > But I do see a great deal of harm to people's research if access
              to the information in the films is denied. I wonder if it's just
              the films on Itri or all the Italian films?
              >
              > Linda
              >
              >
              > marie saccoccio <saccocciom@...> wrote:
              > I did some searching and there is a vault outside of Salt Lake
              City where these are kept. It actually is a whole in the side of a
              mountain to protect them. Looks kind of space age!!! When you go
              to Salt Lake City you can view them but you have to order them
              before hand. It says that some are chosen for safekeeping. I bet
              there is more to this than meets the eye!! Why Itri of all
              places??
              >
              > Marie
              >
              > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@...> wrote:
              > I think so...I went in one day when Verna was pulling films
              and I asked her about what she was doing and she showed me a list
              that had come from Salt Lake that our director wanted the volunteers
              to pull. U know what a stickler he seems to be. I'm afraid to ask
              and bring attention to the films...I wish there were some way we
              could spirit them out of there and have bootlegs made...I'd
              definitely want to share the cost especially if the alternative is
              having all that information locked away where we can't see it any
              more.
              >
              > Linda
              >
              > Jason Soscia <jsoscia3@...> wrote: Can they really recall
              them back to Salt Lake? I paid for most of those Itri films to be
              kept there indefinitely.
              >
              > miyukichan0987 <miyukichan0987@...> wrote:
              > I noticed while composing a response to our newest member,
              Martine,
              > that quite a few of the films for Itri now say "VAULT INTL Film"
              > rather than "FHL INTL Film'.
              >
              > I do know that under certain circumstances, films that were
              previously
              > available to research, suddenly become restricted for reasons no
              one
              > aka the volunteers at my FHC has been able to tell me because they
              > don't know either. They just get notices from Salt Lake telling
              them
              > to pull the films and return them to the FHL.
              >
              > If these films that are now "Vault" are to be restricted it would
              be a
              > major blow to all of us trying to research our ancestors in Itri!
              It
              > has been frustrating enough for me that I can only research the
              period
              > between 1809 -1865 but now to lose a major portion of the films of
              > that period would be an insurmountable research tragedy!
              >
              > 15 of the 26 films of records for Itri are now designated "Vault".
              I
              > called my FHC to see if that means the records are no longer
              available
              > but the volunteer did not know what "Vault" meant with respect to
              > films already on loan. So far, the Itrani films at the Warwick, RI
              > FHC that are on "Indefinite" loan and which constitute nearly a
              > complete set of all the 26 films available, all seem to still be
              there.
              >
              > However, since I don't know if they will at some point in the near
              > future be ordered pulled from the files and sent back to Salt Lake,
              > I'm going to start living at the FHC because I am far from done
              with
              > searching through those films.
              >
              > Can anyone tell the rest of us if "Vault" means that we are about
              to
              > lose access to over 50% of the available films on Itri or not??
              >
              > Linda
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
              Mobile. Try it now.
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Marie Elena Saccoccio
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
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              Yahoo! Search.
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with
              Yahoo! Search.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Marie Elena Saccoccio
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
              Mobile. Try it now.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Marie Elena Saccoccio
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
              Mobile. Try it now.
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Marie Elena Saccoccio
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with
              Yahoo! Search.
              >
            • Linda Peloquin
              Rick, That s encouraging. I have a couple of the early processetti films that are now VAULT on indefinite and I d hate for them to be sent back as I have
              Message 6 of 14 , Mar 19, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Rick,

                That's encouraging.  I have a couple of the early processetti films that are now "VAULT" on indefinite and I'd hate for them to be sent back as I have been able to push just a speck farther back using the records contained in them.

                The way I had read the definition of the VAULT films on the familysearch.org it sounded like the films would only be available via a trip to Salt Lake and that one would have to reserve the films ahead.

                I had wanted to get into my FHC this weekend and check on the films that are presently there that are now catagorized "VAULT" but had no time.   Hopefully I can get in this week.

                I wonder if Jason has had a chance to go there yet to check.

                Linda

                rickj100001 <rickj100001@...> wrote:
                Linda,

                After reading these posts regarding the "VAULT" v. "FHL" categories
                on the family search website, I also became a little alarmed. I
                don't know why certain films are categorized the way they are, and I
                doubt that the volunteers at my local FHC would know either.

                But I have a printout of the FHL Catalog for Itri that I generated
                on 7/1/07. The printout shows almost all of the Processetti films
                (save for the two earliest), two Nati films (1824-1831 and 1832-
                1839) and two Morti films (ag. 1827 - magg. 1846 and 1857-1861)
                listed as "VAULT INTL."

                Since the date of that printout, I have ordered and viewed all of
                the Nati and Morti films (including those listed as VAULT INTL)
                without any problem, and none were pulled from the files prior to my
                consent (currently I have two Processetti films listed as VAULT on
                indefinite loan without any problems).

                So whatever the reasons for the categorizing of these films, it does
                not mean that they are unavailable outside of Salt Lake City. Again,
                I don't know what it means, but I haven't had a problem ordering
                films categorized as VAULT.

                Hope this puts everyone a little more at ease.

                Rick

                --- In FraDiavolo@yahoogro ups.com, marie saccoccio <saccocciom@ ...>
                wrote:
                >
                > LOL My recollection of it was that it was rather boring but
                informative. I should pay more attention next time.
                >
                > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ ...> wrote: Marie,
                >
                > It was run several times just a couple of weeks ago...guess you
                missed it. Both WGBH, Boston and WSBE, RI ran it a couple of times
                each. On those days they ran it during normal evening hours & then
                repeated it during the red eye hours. I know 'cause I zonked trying
                to stay awake watching it, woke up and it was still on so I finished
                watching the program thinking I'd only missed a few minutes. Only
                later did I realize that when I had woken-up , what I woke-up during
                was the second showing of the night during the red eye hours. I was
                mightily disoriented that night after my two installment sleep
                delayed viewing of the show and needed a caffeine IV the next day!!!
                >
                > Linda
                >
                > marie saccoccio <saccocciom@ ...> wrote:
                > LInda, I see that there has been a dispute between Ancestry
                and "the Mormons." I now have no idea who really owns Ancestry.
                Perhaps SEC filings would share some light on this. I am curious.
                >
                > I sort of watched the PBS special on Mormons when it was on TV
                in Boston. Mitt Romney was our governor, then presidential
                candidate so it was good to see. I would like to watch it again
                though as I missed some parts.
                >
                > Marie
                >
                >
                >
                > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ ...> wrote:
                > Marie,
                >
                > "I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this." I don't think
                there's a problem there because of all the Catholic names I've run
                on familysearch. org, the only time any of them have come up has been
                in connection with an IGI (International Genealogical Index) take
                directly from primary source records. Although I'm sure it happens
                that people who were Catholic have converted to the Mormon faith and
                there are Catholic ancestors who are also now Mormons, apparently
                none of them share ancestors with me or my husband. The returns on
                the results page would say "member supplied" somewhere on the
                individual page for the person. I just don't think Catholics have
                flocked to the Mormon religion in the numbers that other faiths
                have.
                >
                > For example, if you run my great-grandfather, Luigi Cannella, this
                is what you get for a result: LUIGI CANNELLA - International
                Genealogical Index / SE
                > Gender: Male Marriage: 08 SEP 1849 Itri, Latina, Italy.
                >
                > When you click on his name the page you get tells you basically
                the same thing but because it is for a marriage so you also get:
                Spouse: MARIA LORETA CARDI Marriage: 08 SEP 1849 Itri,
                Latina, Italy
                >
                > And at the bottom, the source of this information which is one of
                the Itri films of primary source records: Batch No.: M840603
                Dates: 1840 - 1861 Source Call No.: 1173755 Type: Film; which
                is this film -> Matrimoni ag. 1840-1861 FHL INTL Film 1173755.
                >
                > As far as I'm concerned, if someone was born Catholic, lived life
                as a Catholic and died in the Catholic faith or any other faith for
                that matter, something someone does many decades farther down the
                road isn't going to change that fact that they were Catholics. It's
                after the fact and it's not going to change a single thing that has
                transpired in the past. I look at it rather like having dual
                citizenship or two passports... one for the US and one for Italy for
                those folks who qualify.
                >
                > " no longer available for the on line database that one pays
                for??" I guess you're talking about the Generations Network sites
                here? I had asked one of the volunteers at my FHC whom I knew was
                a Mormon if the Mormon's owned what Ancestry and it's sister sites'
                parent company was then known as "My Family.com" and was told "No"
                and that the FHC's had to pay for their access to Ancestry which she
                thought was unfair given that most of the content on Ancestry &
                company was materials that the Mormons had given them access to.
                >
                > At any rate, none of the Itri material has ever been available
                through the pay sites of Ancestry or Genealogy. I wish it were
                since it would be much more convenient. I've gotten tons more
                research done on Hubby's French Canadian ancestors now that Ancestry
                has the Drouin* Collection on line. *The Drouin Institute of
                Montréal when out in the 1930-1940's and filmed every repertoire
                aka parish register that was in existence at the time for the whole
                of Quebec. The repertoire were, up into the 20th century, the
                official vital records of Quebec so with the Drouin films, it is
                possible to trace one's Fre-Can ancestors back to the beginning of
                New France and the first ancestors to come over from France in the
                1600's. I have often times wished that there existed something
                similar for Itri and Italy.
                >
                > "Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based
                on objections,. ..." familysearch. org, where one would find member
                supplied information thus indicating that someone descended from
                that person or persons had become a Mormon and submitted their
                ancestors, is free. what the jewish people were objecting to where
                the member supplied information and registration of Jewish ancestors
                as Mormons. Just as you won't find too many Catholic ancestors in
                the Mormon database, you won't find many Jewish ancestors.
                >
                > Look around and you can probably find the program "The Mormons" on
                a PBS DVD or maybe even your local library might have it in their
                collection. It takes a lot of the mystery out of the Mormon faith
                which so many of us rely on for our research materials but know so
                little about. This is from the PBS Store http://www.shoppbs. org/ -
                The Mormons Single DVD Item No. MORM601 - Description: The Church
                of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is one of America's fastest
                growing religions, and its influence circles the globe. Yet the
                birth of Mormonism and its history is one of America's great
                neglected narratives. This four-hour documentary brings together
                FRONTLINE and AMERICAN EXPERIENCE in their first co-production to
                provide a searching portrait of this fascinating but often
                misunderstood religion.
                >
                >
                >
                > Ancestry databases are records, periodicals, rare books, family
                genealogies, directories, maps, etc most of which would be otherwise
                inaccessible to most people by virtue of geographic separation from
                where the ancestors lived and the time constraints of trying to get
                in where the materials are during the hours a repository is open.
                For example, what Ancestry has are numerous databases such as the
                Drouin, US, English and Canadian censuses, digitized forms of
                publications such as the rare early 5 volume 20th century
                publication "Staten Island and Its People : A History, 1609-1929" or
                Arnold's "Vital Record of Rhode Island, 1636-1850, First Series,
                Births, Marriages and Deaths : a Family Register for the People".
                >
                > An Ancestry subscription can it's place in one's research. As
                much as I love the American French Genealogical Society up in
                Woonsocket, it's having the Drouin available to me 24/7 through my
                Ancestry subscription that has gotten me where I am with the Fre-Can
                ancestors. Ancestry can't replace the AFGS but it certainly has
                gotten me light years ahead in that line of research now that I
                don't have to wait to get time to get into the AFGS when they're
                open and when I do get in, I can make better use of the trip
                expanding upon what are know known and confirmed ancestors.
                >
                > As far as what "Vault" means, I'm still trying to find that out
                without bringing attention to the Itri films at my FHC that are now
                listed as "Vault" on the familysearch. org web site. I was pleased
                to see when I did my earlier reply that films that had been "Vault"
                on the weekend had changed in designation but still none to happy to
                see that nearly all the Processetti are now "Vault". However, it's
                a whole lot easier to live without access to the Processetti than
                without the BMD films.
                >
                > Linda
                >
                >
                > marie saccoccio <saccocciom@ ...> wrote:
                > Linda, I find this fascinating and distrubing as I really did
                not know about the posthumous baptisms. I am sure the Vatican would
                not approve of this. Also, when you say the films for Itri are now
                in the VAULT, do you mean they are no longer available for the
                online database that one pays for??
                >
                > Don't kid yourself, the Mormons have grown very rich off their
                database. I am sure that finances so many of their endeavors. I
                would love to see the financials on ancestry.com. Let me see if I
                can find anything on that subject.
                >
                > Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based
                on objections, since they make so much money off it. Exclsion of
                every group that objects would dent into their profit margin.
                >
                > Marie
                >
                > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ ...> wrote:
                > Why indeed? If I were urber-suspicious, I'd think that it
                had something to do with the PBS running of the program on the
                Mormons and the Italian government objecting to the films being out
                there since the information in them is used by Mormons to have their
                ancestors posthumously baptized into the Mormon faith. Somehow,
                though, I think it just a mundane coincidence that PBS stations
                around here ran the Mormon program at least 4 times a couple of
                weeks back that I remember.
                >
                > That's not to say that there haven't been some groups that have
                objected to having their people recorded for posterity as Mormons.
                People of the Jewish faith took great exception to having their
                ancestors listed as "Mormon" and those people have been removed from
                the Mormon registers. Now, only if a former member of the Jewish
                faith submits their own personal ancestors, does a Jewish ancestor
                get baptized a Mormon. When I saw that segment in the program I
                thought the speaker's attitude a bit pompus. after all, those
                ancestors might be that Mormon member's ancestors BUT they are also
                the ancestors of other people who are of the Jewish faith and might
                object just as deeply to having their ancestors' faith changed and
                having someone 100 years from now think that these folks were always
                Mormon.
                >
                > I cringe every time the whole thing about the posthumous baptism
                gets widespread mention such as on the PBS program because I'm
                afraid that if too many people or religious groups got their backs
                ups and started complaining and demanding that their ancestors be
                struck from the registers of Mormons as was done with those of the
                Jewish faith, that the access to all the materials that we now enjoy
                will be denied those who are not Mormon. My whole take on the thing
                is that if someone died a Lutheran, Catholic, Buddhist, Shinto,
                Episcopalian, Methodist or whatever and had considered themselves in
                life and had practiced that faith in their lifetime, then someone
                coming along 100 years later and baptizing them without their
                knowledge or consent really doesn't change a thing of what happened
                in the past and is pointless but if it puts someone else at ease
                within their chosen religion, I can't see much harm in it.
                >
                >
                > But I do see a great deal of harm to people's research if access
                to the information in the films is denied. I wonder if it's just
                the films on Itri or all the Italian films?
                >
                > Linda
                >
                >
                > marie saccoccio <saccocciom@ ...> wrote:
                > I did some searching and there is a vault outside of Salt Lake
                City where these are kept. It actually is a whole in the side of a
                mountain to protect them. Looks kind of space age!!! When you go
                to Salt Lake City you can view them but you have to order them
                before hand. It says that some are chosen for safekeeping. I bet
                there is more to this than meets the eye!! Why Itri of all
                places??
                >
                > Marie
                >
                > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ ...> wrote:
                > I think so...I went in one day when Verna was pulling films
                and I asked her about what she was doing and she showed me a list
                that had come from Salt Lake that our director wanted the volunteers
                to pull. U know what a stickler he seems to be. I'm afraid to ask
                and bring attention to the films...I wish there were some way we
                could spirit them out of there and have bootlegs made...I'd
                definitely want to share the cost especially if the alternative is
                having all that information locked away where we can't see it any
                more.
                >
                > Linda
                >
                > Jason Soscia <jsoscia3@.. .> wrote: Can they really recall
                them back to Salt Lake? I paid for most of those Itri films to be
                kept there indefinitely.
                >
                > miyukichan0987 <miyukichan0987@ ...> wrote:
                > I noticed while composing a response to our newest member,
                Martine,
                > that quite a few of the films for Itri now say "VAULT INTL Film"
                > rather than "FHL INTL Film'.
                >
                > I do know that under certain circumstances, films that were
                previously
                > available to research, suddenly become restricted for reasons no
                one
                > aka the volunteers at my FHC has been able to tell me because they
                > don't know either. They just get notices from Salt Lake telling
                them
                > to pull the films and return them to the FHL.
                >
                > If these films that are now "Vault" are to be restricted it would
                be a
                > major blow to all of us trying to research our ancestors in Itri!
                It
                > has been frustrating enough for me that I can only research the
                period
                > between 1809 -1865 but now to lose a major portion of the films of
                > that period would be an insurmountable research tragedy!
                >
                > 15 of the 26 films of records for Itri are now designated "Vault".
                I
                > called my FHC to see if that means the records are no longer
                available
                > but the volunteer did not know what "Vault" meant with respect to
                > films already on loan. So far, the Itrani films at the Warwick, RI
                > FHC that are on "Indefinite" loan and which constitute nearly a
                > complete set of all the 26 films available, all seem to still be
                there.
                >
                > However, since I don't know if they will at some point in the near
                > future be ordered pulled from the files and sent back to Salt Lake,
                > I'm going to start living at the FHC because I am far from done
                with
                > searching through those films.
                >
                > Can anyone tell the rest of us if "Vault" means that we are about
                to
                > lose access to over 50% of the available films on Itri or not??
                >
                > Linda
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------ --------- --------- ---
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                >
                > Marie Elena Saccoccio
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------ --------- --------- ---
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                Yahoo! Search.
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with
                Yahoo! Search.
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                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Marie Elena Saccoccio
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------ --------- --------- ---
                > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
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                Mobile. Try it now.
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                >
                > ------------ --------- --------- ---
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