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Itrani Films - VAULT ALERT!!!!!

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  • miyukichan0987
    I noticed while composing a response to our newest member, Martine, that quite a few of the films for Itri now say VAULT INTL Film rather than FHL INTL
    Message 1 of 14 , Mar 8, 2008
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      I noticed while composing a response to our newest member, Martine,
      that quite a few of the films for Itri now say "VAULT INTL Film"
      rather than "FHL INTL Film'.

      I do know that under certain circumstances, films that were previously
      available to research, suddenly become restricted for reasons no one
      aka the volunteers at my FHC has been able to tell me because they
      don't know either. They just get notices from Salt Lake telling them
      to pull the films and return them to the FHL.

      If these films that are now "Vault" are to be restricted it would be a
      major blow to all of us trying to research our ancestors in Itri! It
      has been frustrating enough for me that I can only research the period
      between 1809 -1865 but now to lose a major portion of the films of
      that period would be an insurmountable research tragedy!

      15 of the 26 films of records for Itri are now designated "Vault". I
      called my FHC to see if that means the records are no longer available
      but the volunteer did not know what "Vault" meant with respect to
      films already on loan. So far, the Itrani films at the Warwick, RI
      FHC that are on "Indefinite" loan and which constitute nearly a
      complete set of all the 26 films available, all seem to still be there.

      However, since I don't know if they will at some point in the near
      future be ordered pulled from the files and sent back to Salt Lake,
      I'm going to start living at the FHC because I am far from done with
      searching through those films.

      Can anyone tell the rest of us if "Vault" means that we are about to
      lose access to over 50% of the available films on Itri or not??

      Linda
    • Jason Soscia
      Can they really recall them back to Salt Lake? I paid for most of those Itri films to be kept there indefinitely. miyukichan0987
      Message 2 of 14 , Mar 8, 2008
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        Can they really recall them back to Salt Lake?  I paid for most of those Itri films to be kept there indefinitely.

        miyukichan0987 <miyukichan0987@...> wrote:
        I noticed while composing a response to our newest member, Martine,
        that quite a few of the films for Itri now say "VAULT INTL Film"
        rather than "FHL INTL Film'.

        I do know that under certain circumstances, films that were previously
        available to research, suddenly become restricted for reasons no one
        aka the volunteers at my FHC has been able to tell me because they
        don't know either. They just get notices from Salt Lake telling them
        to pull the films and return them to the FHL.

        If these films that are now "Vault" are to be restricted it would be a
        major blow to all of us trying to research our ancestors in Itri! It
        has been frustrating enough for me that I can only research the period
        between 1809 -1865 but now to lose a major portion of the films of
        that period would be an insurmountable research tragedy!

        15 of the 26 films of records for Itri are now designated "Vault". I
        called my FHC to see if that means the records are no longer available
        but the volunteer did not know what "Vault" meant with respect to
        films already on loan. So far, the Itrani films at the Warwick, RI
        FHC that are on "Indefinite" loan and which constitute nearly a
        complete set of all the 26 films available, all seem to still be there.

        However, since I don't know if they will at some point in the near
        future be ordered pulled from the files and sent back to Salt Lake,
        I'm going to start living at the FHC because I am far from done with
        searching through those films.

        Can anyone tell the rest of us if "Vault" means that we are about to
        lose access to over 50% of the available films on Itri or not??

        Linda



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      • Linda Peloquin
        I think so...I went in one day when Verna was pulling films and I asked her about what she was doing and she showed me a list that had come from Salt Lake that
        Message 3 of 14 , Mar 8, 2008
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          I think so...I went in one day when Verna was pulling films and I asked her about what she was doing and she showed me a list that had come from Salt Lake that our director wanted the volunteers to pull.  U know what a stickler he seems to be.  I'm afraid to ask and bring attention to the films...I wish there were some way we could spirit them out of there and have bootlegs made...I'd definitely want to share the cost especially if the alternative is having all that information locked away where we can't see it any more.

          Linda

          Jason Soscia <jsoscia3@...> wrote:
          Can they really recall them back to Salt Lake?  I paid for most of those Itri films to be kept there indefinitely.

          miyukichan0987 <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
          I noticed while composing a response to our newest member, Martine,
          that quite a few of the films for Itri now say "VAULT INTL Film"
          rather than "FHL INTL Film'.

          I do know that under certain circumstances, films that were previously
          available to research, suddenly become restricted for reasons no one
          aka the volunteers at my FHC has been able to tell me because they
          don't know either. They just get notices from Salt Lake telling them
          to pull the films and return them to the FHL.

          If these films that are now "Vault" are to be restricted it would be a
          major blow to all of us trying to research our ancestors in Itri! It
          has been frustrating enough for me that I can only research the period
          between 1809 -1865 but now to lose a major portion of the films of
          that period would be an insurmountable research tragedy!

          15 of the 26 films of records for Itri are now designated "Vault". I
          called my FHC to see if that means the records are no longer available
          but the volunteer did not know what "Vault" meant with respect to
          films already on loan. So far, the Itrani films at the Warwick, RI
          FHC that are on "Indefinite" loan and which constitute nearly a
          complete set of all the 26 films available, all seem to still be there.

          However, since I don't know if they will at some point in the near
          future be ordered pulled from the files and sent back to Salt Lake,
          I'm going to start living at the FHC because I am far from done with
          searching through those films.

          Can anyone tell the rest of us if "Vault" means that we are about to
          lose access to over 50% of the available films on Itri or not??

          Linda



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        • marie saccoccio
          I did some searching and there is a vault outside of Salt Lake City where these are kept. It actually is a whole in the side of a mountain to protect them.
          Message 4 of 14 , Mar 8, 2008
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            I did some searching and there is a vault outside of Salt Lake City where these are kept.  It actually is a whole in the side of a mountain to protect them.  Looks kind of space age!!!  When you go to Salt Lake City you can view them but you have to order them before hand.  It says that some are chosen for safekeeping.  I bet there is more to this than meets the eye!!  Why Itri of all places?? 
             
            Marie  

            Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@...> wrote:
            I think so...I went in one day when Verna was pulling films and I asked her about what she was doing and she showed me a list that had come from Salt Lake that our director wanted the volunteers to pull.  U know what a stickler he seems to be.  I'm afraid to ask and bring attention to the films...I wish there were some way we could spirit them out of there and have bootlegs made...I'd definitely want to share the cost especially if the alternative is having all that information locked away where we can't see it any more.

            Linda

            Jason Soscia <jsoscia3@yahoo. com> wrote:
            Can they really recall them back to Salt Lake?  I paid for most of those Itri films to be kept there indefinitely.

            miyukichan0987 <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
            I noticed while composing a response to our newest member, Martine,
            that quite a few of the films for Itri now say "VAULT INTL Film"
            rather than "FHL INTL Film'.

            I do know that under certain circumstances, films that were previously
            available to research, suddenly become restricted for reasons no one
            aka the volunteers at my FHC has been able to tell me because they
            don't know either. They just get notices from Salt Lake telling them
            to pull the films and return them to the FHL.

            If these films that are now "Vault" are to be restricted it would be a
            major blow to all of us trying to research our ancestors in Itri! It
            has been frustrating enough for me that I can only research the period
            between 1809 -1865 but now to lose a major portion of the films of
            that period would be an insurmountable research tragedy!

            15 of the 26 films of records for Itri are now designated "Vault". I
            called my FHC to see if that means the records are no longer available
            but the volunteer did not know what "Vault" meant with respect to
            films already on loan. So far, the Itrani films at the Warwick, RI
            FHC that are on "Indefinite" loan and which constitute nearly a
            complete set of all the 26 films available, all seem to still be there.

            However, since I don't know if they will at some point in the near
            future be ordered pulled from the files and sent back to Salt Lake,
            I'm going to start living at the FHC because I am far from done with
            searching through those films.

            Can anyone tell the rest of us if "Vault" means that we are about to
            lose access to over 50% of the available films on Itri or not??

            Linda



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            Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.



            Marie Elena Saccoccio


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          • marie saccoccio
            You know this could be a ploy to get folks to travel to Salt Lake City. Since there are very few records outside of this collection on Itri, they may have
            Message 5 of 14 , Mar 8, 2008
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              You know this could be a ploy to get folks to travel to Salt Lake City.  Since there are very few records outside of this collection on Itri, they may have been chosen for precisely this reason!! 
               
              I have a Latter Day Center right down the street from me.  I have never crossed the threshold.  Perhaps I should.  what precisely should I ask for??
               
              Marie

              Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@...> wrote:
              I think so...I went in one day when Verna was pulling films and I asked her about what she was doing and she showed me a list that had come from Salt Lake that our director wanted the volunteers to pull.  U know what a stickler he seems to be.  I'm afraid to ask and bring attention to the films...I wish there were some way we could spirit them out of there and have bootlegs made...I'd definitely want to share the cost especially if the alternative is having all that information locked away where we can't see it any more.

              Linda

              Jason Soscia <jsoscia3@yahoo. com> wrote:
              Can they really recall them back to Salt Lake?  I paid for most of those Itri films to be kept there indefinitely.

              miyukichan0987 <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
              I noticed while composing a response to our newest member, Martine,
              that quite a few of the films for Itri now say "VAULT INTL Film"
              rather than "FHL INTL Film'.

              I do know that under certain circumstances, films that were previously
              available to research, suddenly become restricted for reasons no one
              aka the volunteers at my FHC has been able to tell me because they
              don't know either. They just get notices from Salt Lake telling them
              to pull the films and return them to the FHL.

              If these films that are now "Vault" are to be restricted it would be a
              major blow to all of us trying to research our ancestors in Itri! It
              has been frustrating enough for me that I can only research the period
              between 1809 -1865 but now to lose a major portion of the films of
              that period would be an insurmountable research tragedy!

              15 of the 26 films of records for Itri are now designated "Vault". I
              called my FHC to see if that means the records are no longer available
              but the volunteer did not know what "Vault" meant with respect to
              films already on loan. So far, the Itrani films at the Warwick, RI
              FHC that are on "Indefinite" loan and which constitute nearly a
              complete set of all the 26 films available, all seem to still be there.

              However, since I don't know if they will at some point in the near
              future be ordered pulled from the files and sent back to Salt Lake,
              I'm going to start living at the FHC because I am far from done with
              searching through those films.

              Can anyone tell the rest of us if "Vault" means that we are about to
              lose access to over 50% of the available films on Itri or not??

              Linda



              Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.


              Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.



              Marie Elena Saccoccio


              Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

            • Linda Peloquin
              Why indeed? If I were urber-suspicious, I d think that it had something to do with the PBS running of the program on the Mormons and the Italian government
              Message 6 of 14 , Mar 11, 2008
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                Why indeed?  If I were urber-suspicious, I'd think that it had something to do with the PBS running of the program on the Mormons and the Italian government objecting to the films being out there since the information in them is used by Mormons to have their ancestors posthumously baptized into the Mormon faith.  Somehow, though, I think it just a mundane coincidence that PBS stations around here ran the Mormon program at least 4 times a couple of weeks back that I remember. 

                That's not to say that there haven't been some groups that have objected to having their people recorded for posterity as Mormons.  People of the Jewish faith took great exception to having their ancestors listed as "Mormon" and those people have been removed from the Mormon registers.  Now, only if a former member of the Jewish faith submits their own personal ancestors, does a Jewish ancestor get baptized a Mormon.  When I saw that segment in the program I thought the speaker's attitude a bit pompus.  after all, those ancestors might be that Mormon member's ancestors BUT they are also the ancestors of other people who are of the Jewish faith and might object just as deeply to having their ancestors' faith changed and having someone 100 years from now think that these folks were always Mormon.

                I cringe every time the whole thing about the posthumous baptism gets widespread mention such as on the PBS program because I'm afraid that if too many people or religious groups got their backs ups and started complaining and demanding that their ancestors be struck from the registers of Mormons as was done with those of the Jewish faith, that the access to all the materials that we now enjoy will be denied those who are not Mormon.  My whole take on the thing is that if someone died a Lutheran, Catholic, Buddhist, Shinto, Episcopalian, Methodist or whatever and had considered themselves in life and had practiced that faith in their lifetime, then someone coming along 100 years later and baptizing them without their knowledge or consent really doesn't change a thing of what happened in the past and is pointless but if it puts someone else at ease within their chosen religion, I can't see much harm in it.


                But I do see a great deal of harm to people's research if access to the information in the films is denied.  I wonder if it's just the films on Itri or all the Italian films?

                Linda


                marie saccoccio <saccocciom@...> wrote:
                I did some searching and there is a vault outside of Salt Lake City where these are kept.  It actually is a whole in the side of a mountain to protect them.  Looks kind of space age!!!  When you go to Salt Lake City you can view them but you have to order them before hand.  It says that some are chosen for safekeeping.  I bet there is more to this than meets the eye!!  Why Itri of all places?? 
                 
                Marie  

                Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                I think so...I went in one day when Verna was pulling films and I asked her about what she was doing and she showed me a list that had come from Salt Lake that our director wanted the volunteers to pull.  U know what a stickler he seems to be.  I'm afraid to ask and bring attention to the films...I wish there were some way we could spirit them out of there and have bootlegs made...I'd definitely want to share the cost especially if the alternative is having all that information locked away where we can't see it any more.

                Linda

                Jason Soscia <jsoscia3@yahoo. com> wrote:
                Can they really recall them back to Salt Lake?  I paid for most of those Itri films to be kept there indefinitely.

                miyukichan0987 <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                I noticed while composing a response to our newest member, Martine,
                that quite a few of the films for Itri now say "VAULT INTL Film"
                rather than "FHL INTL Film'.

                I do know that under certain circumstances, films that were previously
                available to research, suddenly become restricted for reasons no one
                aka the volunteers at my FHC has been able to tell me because they
                don't know either. They just get notices from Salt Lake telling them
                to pull the films and return them to the FHL.

                If these films that are now "Vault" are to be restricted it would be a
                major blow to all of us trying to research our ancestors in Itri! It
                has been frustrating enough for me that I can only research the period
                between 1809 -1865 but now to lose a major portion of the films of
                that period would be an insurmountable research tragedy!

                15 of the 26 films of records for Itri are now designated "Vault". I
                called my FHC to see if that means the records are no longer available
                but the volunteer did not know what "Vault" meant with respect to
                films already on loan. So far, the Itrani films at the Warwick, RI
                FHC that are on "Indefinite" loan and which constitute nearly a
                complete set of all the 26 films available, all seem to still be there.

                However, since I don't know if they will at some point in the near
                future be ordered pulled from the files and sent back to Salt Lake,
                I'm going to start living at the FHC because I am far from done with
                searching through those films.

                Can anyone tell the rest of us if "Vault" means that we are about to
                lose access to over 50% of the available films on Itri or not??

                Linda



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                Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.



                Marie Elena Saccoccio

                Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.


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              • marie saccoccio
                Linda, I find this fascinating and distrubing as I really did not know about the posthumous baptisms. I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this. Also,
                Message 7 of 14 , Mar 11, 2008
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                  Linda, I find this fascinating and distrubing as I really did not know about the posthumous baptisms.  I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this.  Also, when you say the films for Itri are now in the VAULT, do you mean they are no longer available for the online database that one pays for?? 
                   
                  Don't kid yourself, the Mormons have grown very rich off their database.  I am sure that finances so many of their endeavors.  I would love to see the financials on ancestry.com.  Let me see if I can find anything on that subject.
                   
                  Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based on objections, since they make so much money off it.  Exclsion of every group that objects would dent into their profit margin. 
                   
                  Marie  

                  Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@...> wrote:
                  Why indeed?  If I were urber-suspicious, I'd think that it had something to do with the PBS running of the program on the Mormons and the Italian government objecting to the films being out there since the information in them is used by Mormons to have their ancestors posthumously baptized into the Mormon faith.  Somehow, though, I think it just a mundane coincidence that PBS stations around here ran the Mormon program at least 4 times a couple of weeks back that I remember. 

                  That's not to say that there haven't been some groups that have objected to having their people recorded for posterity as Mormons.  People of the Jewish faith took great exception to having their ancestors listed as "Mormon" and those people have been removed from the Mormon registers.  Now, only if a former member of the Jewish faith submits their own personal ancestors, does a Jewish ancestor get baptized a Mormon.  When I saw that segment in the program I thought the speaker's attitude a bit pompus.  after all, those ancestors might be that Mormon member's ancestors BUT they are also the ancestors of other people who are of the Jewish faith and might object just as deeply to having their ancestors' faith changed and having someone 100 years from now think that these folks were always Mormon.

                  I cringe every time the whole thing about the posthumous baptism gets widespread mention such as on the PBS program because I'm afraid that if too many people or religious groups got their backs ups and started complaining and demanding that their ancestors be struck from the registers of Mormons as was done with those of the Jewish faith, that the access to all the materials that we now enjoy will be denied those who are not Mormon.  My whole take on the thing is that if someone died a Lutheran, Catholic, Buddhist, Shinto, Episcopalian, Methodist or whatever and had considered themselves in life and had practiced that faith in their lifetime, then someone coming along 100 years later and baptizing them without their knowledge or consent really doesn't change a thing of what happened in the past and is pointless but if it puts someone else at ease within their chosen religion, I can't see much harm in it.


                  But I do see a great deal of harm to people's research if access to the information in the films is denied.  I wonder if it's just the films on Itri or all the Italian films?

                  Linda


                  marie saccoccio <saccocciom@yahoo. com> wrote:
                  I did some searching and there is a vault outside of Salt Lake City where these are kept.  It actually is a whole in the side of a mountain to protect them.  Looks kind of space age!!!  When you go to Salt Lake City you can view them but you have to order them before hand.  It says that some are chosen for safekeeping.  I bet there is more to this than meets the eye!!  Why Itri of all places?? 
                   
                  Marie  

                  Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                  I think so...I went in one day when Verna was pulling films and I asked her about what she was doing and she showed me a list that had come from Salt Lake that our director wanted the volunteers to pull.  U know what a stickler he seems to be.  I'm afraid to ask and bring attention to the films...I wish there were some way we could spirit them out of there and have bootlegs made...I'd definitely want to share the cost especially if the alternative is having all that information locked away where we can't see it any more.

                  Linda

                  Jason Soscia <jsoscia3@yahoo. com> wrote:
                  Can they really recall them back to Salt Lake?  I paid for most of those Itri films to be kept there indefinitely.

                  miyukichan0987 <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                  I noticed while composing a response to our newest member, Martine,
                  that quite a few of the films for Itri now say "VAULT INTL Film"
                  rather than "FHL INTL Film'.

                  I do know that under certain circumstances, films that were previously
                  available to research, suddenly become restricted for reasons no one
                  aka the volunteers at my FHC has been able to tell me because they
                  don't know either. They just get notices from Salt Lake telling them
                  to pull the films and return them to the FHL.

                  If these films that are now "Vault" are to be restricted it would be a
                  major blow to all of us trying to research our ancestors in Itri! It
                  has been frustrating enough for me that I can only research the period
                  between 1809 -1865 but now to lose a major portion of the films of
                  that period would be an insurmountable research tragedy!

                  15 of the 26 films of records for Itri are now designated "Vault". I
                  called my FHC to see if that means the records are no longer available
                  but the volunteer did not know what "Vault" meant with respect to
                  films already on loan. So far, the Itrani films at the Warwick, RI
                  FHC that are on "Indefinite" loan and which constitute nearly a
                  complete set of all the 26 films available, all seem to still be there.

                  However, since I don't know if they will at some point in the near
                  future be ordered pulled from the files and sent back to Salt Lake,
                  I'm going to start living at the FHC because I am far from done with
                  searching through those films.

                  Can anyone tell the rest of us if "Vault" means that we are about to
                  lose access to over 50% of the available films on Itri or not??

                  Linda



                  Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.


                  Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.



                  Marie Elena Saccoccio

                  Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.


                  Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.



                  Marie Elena Saccoccio


                  Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

                • Linda Peloquin
                  Well, I know before I d be likely to spend the money on a trip to Salt Lake that I d probably save that and put it towards a trip to Itri so that s not going
                  Message 8 of 14 , Mar 11, 2008
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                    Well, I know before I'd be likely to spend the money on a trip to Salt Lake that I'd probably save that and put it towards a trip to Itri so that's not going to work on me, at any rate. Going to Venice as I did and not having but a few shakey phrases in Italian memorized is one thing...everyone there seemed to speak English as well as a couple of other languages beyond Italian; a marvel to someone like me who struggles with trying to learn another language....but going to little Itri with no Italian would be entirely different.  Before any trip to the ancestral village, I've got to somehow learn some basic Italian beyond those words that filtered down to my generation and used to get us in mega trouble with the adults if we were caught using them as kids :-)

                    The whole set of numbers for the Itri films is:
                    Registri dello stato civile, 1809-1865  Itri (Latina). Ufficio dello stato civile

                    Nati 1809, 1811-1813, 1817, 1820-1824 (28 giugno)    FHL INTL Film  1169206 Items 3-5
                    Nati (28 giugno) 1824-1831  # 1169207  VAULT INTL Film  1169207
                    Nati 1832-1839   VAULT INTL Film  1169208
                    Nati 1840-1847 (26 mar.) FHL INTL Film 1169209
                    Nati (26 mar.) 1847-1854 FHL INTL Film 1169210
                    Nati 1855-1865     FHL INTL Film 1169211
                    Matrimoni 1809-1812 FHL INTL Film 1173753 Item 19
                    Matrimoni 1817; Morti 1813, nati 1817; Matrimoni 1818-ag. 1840     FHL INTL Film 1173754
                    Matrimoni ag. 1840-1861 FHL INTL Film 1173755
                    Morti 1809-1812, 1817-ag. 1827     FHL INTL Film 1178870 Items 9-12
                    Morti ag. 1827-magg. 1846 VAULT INTL Film 1178871
                    Morti magg. 1846-1855, 1857-1861 VAULT INTL Film 1178872 Items 1-13
                    Processetti 1817-1819     VAULT INTL Film 1424265 Items 3-4
                    Processetti 1819-1824     VAULT INTL Film 1424266
                    Processetti 1823-1829     VAULT INTL Film 1424267
                    Processetti 1828-1833     VAULT INTL Film 1424268
                    Processetti 1834-1837     VAULT INTL Film 1424269
                    Processetti 1836-1842     VAULT INTL Film 1424270
                    Processetti 1840-1846     VAULT INTL Film 1424271
                    Processetti 1845-1850     VAULT INTL Film 1424272
                    Processetti 1850-1852     VAULT INTL Film 1424273
                    Processetti 1851-1856     VAULT INTL Film 1424274
                    Processetti 1855-1858     VAULT INTL Film 1424275
                    Processetti 1857-1861 FHL INTL Film 1424276
                    Processetti 1861 FHL INTL Film 1424277 Item 1
                    Diversi 1812-1860 FHL INTL Film 1037931 Items 15-23

                    I'm not sure what is going on but when I compared this list above to the printout I made over the weekend, there are now fewer of the regular BMD films on "Vault" and most of the Processetti on "Vault". 

                    Still 15 films but some different from the ones that were "vault" this weekend.  I'm glad to see the as lot of the BMD ones back to just the regular designation but distressed to see the early Processetti films have become vault.  I was able to get back just a spot further thanks to the Processetti and firm up some links to the catasto so I'm not happy to see these going over to "Vault".  Looks like a couple of my films that I have on "indefinite " loan may be going back but I hope not.  I'd better grab the two latest Processetti and look at those before they too are unavailable to me.

                    Either way, it's been months since I made time to go into my FHC and look at the Itri films, most of which Jason had put on "indefinite", but I think I'm going to start making it a point to get in there regularly and get everything I can out of the films.  This whole thing has really rattled me and shaken me from my complacency.  I just hope that since this list has changed since Saturday that some of the films that were "vault" and are not now, weren't pulled from the files and already shipped back.

                    Linda


                    marie saccoccio <saccocciom@...> wrote:
                    You know this could be a ploy to get folks to travel to Salt Lake City.  Since there are very few records outside of this collection on Itri, they may have been chosen for precisely this reason!! 
                     
                    I have a Latter Day Center right down the street from me.  I have never crossed the threshold.  Perhaps I should.  what precisely should I ask for??
                     
                    Marie

                    Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                    I think so...I went in one day when Verna was pulling films and I asked her about what she was doing and she showed me a list that had come from Salt Lake that our director wanted the volunteers to pull.  U know what a stickler he seems to be.  I'm afraid to ask and bring attention to the films...I wish there were some way we could spirit them out of there and have bootlegs made...I'd definitely want to share the cost especially if the alternative is having all that information locked away where we can't see it any more.

                    Linda

                    Jason Soscia <jsoscia3@yahoo. com> wrote:
                    Can they really recall them back to Salt Lake?  I paid for most of those Itri films to be kept there indefinitely.

                    miyukichan0987 <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                    I noticed while composing a response to our newest member, Martine,
                    that quite a few of the films for Itri now say "VAULT INTL Film"
                    rather than "FHL INTL Film'.

                    I do know that under certain circumstances, films that were previously
                    available to research, suddenly become restricted for reasons no one
                    aka the volunteers at my FHC has been able to tell me because they
                    don't know either. They just get notices from Salt Lake telling them
                    to pull the films and return them to the FHL.

                    If these films that are now "Vault" are to be restricted it would be a
                    major blow to all of us trying to research our ancestors in Itri! It
                    has been frustrating enough for me that I can only research the period
                    between 1809 -1865 but now to lose a major portion of the films of
                    that period would be an insurmountable research tragedy!

                    15 of the 26 films of records for Itri are now designated "Vault". I
                    called my FHC to see if that means the records are no longer available
                    but the volunteer did not know what "Vault" meant with respect to
                    films already on loan. So far, the Itrani films at the Warwick, RI
                    FHC that are on "Indefinite" loan and which constitute nearly a
                    complete set of all the 26 films available, all seem to still be there.

                    However, since I don't know if they will at some point in the near
                    future be ordered pulled from the files and sent back to Salt Lake,
                    I'm going to start living at the FHC because I am far from done with
                    searching through those films.

                    Can anyone tell the rest of us if "Vault" means that we are about to
                    lose access to over 50% of the available films on Itri or not??

                    Linda



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                    Marie Elena Saccoccio

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                  • Linda Peloquin
                    Marie, I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this. I don t think there s a problem there because of all the Catholic names I ve run on
                    Message 9 of 14 , Mar 11, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Marie,

                      "I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this."  I don't think there's a problem there because of all the Catholic names I've run on familysearch.org, the only time any of them have come up has been in connection with an IGI (International Genealogical Index) take directly from primary source records.  Although I'm sure it happens that people who were Catholic have converted to the Mormon faith and there are Catholic ancestors who are also now Mormons, apparently none of them share ancestors with me or my husband.   The returns on the results page would say "member supplied" somewhere on the individual page for the person.  I just don't think Catholics have flocked to the Mormon religion in the numbers that other faiths have. 

                      For example, if you run my great-grandfather, Luigi Cannella, this is what you get for a result:  LUIGI CANNELLA - International Genealogical Index / SE
                      Gender: Male Marriage: 08 SEP 1849 Itri, Latina, Italy. 

                      When you click on his name the page you get tells you basically the same thing but because it is for a marriage so you also get: Spouse:  MARIA LORETA CARDI    Marriage:  08 SEP 1849   Itri, Latina, Italy

                      And at the bottom, the source of this information which is one of the Itri films of primary source records: Batch No.:  M840603    Dates: 1840 - 1861    Source Call No.: 1173755    Type:  Film; which is this film -> Matrimoni ag. 1840-1861 FHL INTL Film 1173755.

                      As far as I'm concerned, if someone was born Catholic, lived life as a Catholic and died in the Catholic faith or any other faith for that matter, something someone does many decades farther down the road isn't going to change that fact that they were Catholics.  It's after the fact and it's not going to change a single thing that has transpired in the past.  I look at it rather like having dual citizenship or two passports...one for the US and one for Italy for those folks who qualify.

                      " no longer available for the on line database that one pays for??"   I guess you're talking about the Generations Network sites here?   I had asked one of the volunteers at my FHC whom I knew was a Mormon if the Mormon's owned what Ancestry and it's sister sites' parent company was then known as "My Family.com" and was told "No" and that the FHC's had to pay for their access to Ancestry which she thought was unfair given that most of the content on Ancestry & company was materials that the Mormons had given them access to.

                      At any rate, none of the Itri material has ever been available through the pay sites of Ancestry or Genealogy.  I wish it were since it would be much more convenient.  I've gotten tons more research done on Hubby's French Canadian ancestors now that Ancestry has the Drouin* Collection on line.  *The Drouin Institute of Montréal when out in the 1930-1940's and filmed every repertoire aka parish register that was in existence at the time for the whole of Quebec.  The repertoire were, up into the 20th century, the official vital records of Quebec so with the Drouin films, it is possible to trace one's Fre-Can ancestors back to the beginning of New France and the first ancestors to come over from France in the 1600's.   I have often times wished that there existed something similar for Itri and Italy.

                      "Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based on objections,...."  familysearch.org, where one would find member supplied information thus indicating that someone descended from that person or persons had become a Mormon and submitted their ancestors, is free.   what the jewish people were objecting to where the member supplied information and registration of Jewish ancestors as Mormons.  Just as you won't find too many Catholic ancestors in the Mormon database, you won't find many Jewish ancestors. 

                      Look around and you can probably find the program "The Mormons" on a PBS DVD or maybe even your local library might have it in their collection.  It takes a lot of the mystery out of the Mormon faith which so many of us rely on for our research materials but know so little about.  This is from the PBS Store http://www.shoppbs.org/ - The Mormons Single DVD  Item No. MORM601 - Description:
                      The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is one of America's fastest growing religions, and its influence circles the globe. Yet the birth of Mormonism and its history is one of America's great neglected narratives. This four-hour documentary brings together FRONTLINE and AMERICAN EXPERIENCE in their first co-production to provide a searching portrait of this fascinating but often misunderstood religion.



                      Ancestry databases are records, periodicals, rare books, family genealogies, directories, maps, etc most of which would be otherwise inaccessible to most people by virtue of geographic separation from where the ancestors lived and the time constraints of trying to get in where the materials are during the hours a repository is open.  For example, what Ancestry has are numerous databases such as the Drouin, US, English and Canadian censuses, digitized forms of publications such as the rare early 5 volume 20th century publication "Staten Island and Its People : A History, 1609-1929" or Arnold's "Vital Record of Rhode Island, 1636-1850, First Series, Births, Marriages and Deaths : a Family Register for the People".

                      An Ancestry subscription can it's place in one's research.  As much as I love the American French Genealogical Society up in Woonsocket, it's having the Drouin available to me 24/7 through my Ancestry subscription that has gotten me where I am with the Fre-Can ancestors.  Ancestry can't replace the AFGS but it certainly has gotten me light years ahead in that line of research now that I don't have to wait to get time to get into the AFGS when they're open and when I do get in, I can make better use of the trip expanding upon what are know known and confirmed ancestors.

                      As far as what "Vault" means, I'm still trying to find that out without bringing attention to the Itri films at my FHC that are now listed as "Vault" on the familysearch.org web site.  I was pleased to see when I did my earlier reply that films that had been "Vault" on the weekend had changed in designation but still none to happy to see that nearly all the Processetti are now "Vault".  However, it's a whole lot easier to live without access to the Processetti than without the BMD films.

                      Linda


                      marie saccoccio <saccocciom@...> wrote:
                      Linda, I find this fascinating and distrubing as I really did not know about the posthumous baptisms.  I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this.  Also, when you say the films for Itri are now in the VAULT, do you mean they are no longer available for the online database that one pays for?? 
                       
                      Don't kid yourself, the Mormons have grown very rich off their database.  I am sure that finances so many of their endeavors.  I would love to see the financials on ancestry.com.  Let me see if I can find anything on that subject.
                       
                      Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based on objections, since they make so much money off it.  Exclsion of every group that objects would dent into their profit margin. 
                       
                      Marie  

                      Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                      Why indeed?  If I were urber-suspicious, I'd think that it had something to do with the PBS running of the program on the Mormons and the Italian government objecting to the films being out there since the information in them is used by Mormons to have their ancestors posthumously baptized into the Mormon faith.  Somehow, though, I think it just a mundane coincidence that PBS stations around here ran the Mormon program at least 4 times a couple of weeks back that I remember. 

                      That's not to say that there haven't been some groups that have objected to having their people recorded for posterity as Mormons.  People of the Jewish faith took great exception to having their ancestors listed as "Mormon" and those people have been removed from the Mormon registers.  Now, only if a former member of the Jewish faith submits their own personal ancestors, does a Jewish ancestor get baptized a Mormon.  When I saw that segment in the program I thought the speaker's attitude a bit pompus.  after all, those ancestors might be that Mormon member's ancestors BUT they are also the ancestors of other people who are of the Jewish faith and might object just as deeply to having their ancestors' faith changed and having someone 100 years from now think that these folks were always Mormon.

                      I cringe every time the whole thing about the posthumous baptism gets widespread mention such as on the PBS program because I'm afraid that if too many people or religious groups got their backs ups and started complaining and demanding that their ancestors be struck from the registers of Mormons as was done with those of the Jewish faith, that the access to all the materials that we now enjoy will be denied those who are not Mormon.  My whole take on the thing is that if someone died a Lutheran, Catholic, Buddhist, Shinto, Episcopalian, Methodist or whatever and had considered themselves in life and had practiced that faith in their lifetime, then someone coming along 100 years later and baptizing them without their knowledge or consent really doesn't change a thing of what happened in the past and is pointless but if it puts someone else at ease within their chosen religion, I can't see much harm in it.


                      But I do see a great deal of harm to people's research if access to the information in the films is denied.  I wonder if it's just the films on Itri or all the Italian films?

                      Linda


                      marie saccoccio <saccocciom@yahoo. com> wrote:
                      I did some searching and there is a vault outside of Salt Lake City where these are kept.  It actually is a whole in the side of a mountain to protect them.  Looks kind of space age!!!  When you go to Salt Lake City you can view them but you have to order them before hand.  It says that some are chosen for safekeeping.  I bet there is more to this than meets the eye!!  Why Itri of all places?? 
                       
                      Marie  

                      Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                      I think so...I went in one day when Verna was pulling films and I asked her about what she was doing and she showed me a list that had come from Salt Lake that our director wanted the volunteers to pull.  U know what a stickler he seems to be.  I'm afraid to ask and bring attention to the films...I wish there were some way we could spirit them out of there and have bootlegs made...I'd definitely want to share the cost especially if the alternative is having all that information locked away where we can't see it any more.

                      Linda

                      Jason Soscia <jsoscia3@yahoo. com> wrote:
                      Can they really recall them back to Salt Lake?  I paid for most of those Itri films to be kept there indefinitely.

                      miyukichan0987 <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                      I noticed while composing a response to our newest member, Martine,
                      that quite a few of the films for Itri now say "VAULT INTL Film"
                      rather than "FHL INTL Film'.

                      I do know that under certain circumstances, films that were previously
                      available to research, suddenly become restricted for reasons no one
                      aka the volunteers at my FHC has been able to tell me because they
                      don't know either. They just get notices from Salt Lake telling them
                      to pull the films and return them to the FHL.

                      If these films that are now "Vault" are to be restricted it would be a
                      major blow to all of us trying to research our ancestors in Itri! It
                      has been frustrating enough for me that I can only research the period
                      between 1809 -1865 but now to lose a major portion of the films of
                      that period would be an insurmountable research tragedy!

                      15 of the 26 films of records for Itri are now designated "Vault". I
                      called my FHC to see if that means the records are no longer available
                      but the volunteer did not know what "Vault" meant with respect to
                      films already on loan. So far, the Itrani films at the Warwick, RI
                      FHC that are on "Indefinite" loan and which constitute nearly a
                      complete set of all the 26 films available, all seem to still be there.

                      However, since I don't know if they will at some point in the near
                      future be ordered pulled from the files and sent back to Salt Lake,
                      I'm going to start living at the FHC because I am far from done with
                      searching through those films.

                      Can anyone tell the rest of us if "Vault" means that we are about to
                      lose access to over 50% of the available films on Itri or not??

                      Linda



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                      Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.



                      Marie Elena Saccoccio

                      Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.


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                      Marie Elena Saccoccio

                      Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.


                      Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

                    • marie saccoccio
                      LInda, I see that there has been a dispute between Ancestry and the Mormons. I now have no idea who really owns Ancestry. Perhaps SEC filings would share
                      Message 10 of 14 , Mar 11, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        LInda, I see that there has been a dispute between Ancestry and "the Mormons."  I now have no idea who really owns Ancestry.  Perhaps SEC filings would share some light on this. I am curious.
                         
                        I sort of watched the PBS special on Mormons when it was on TV in Boston.  Mitt Romney was our governor, then presidential candidate so it was good to see.  I would like to watch it again though as I missed some parts.
                         
                        Marie
                         
                         
                         
                        Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@...> wrote:
                        Marie,

                        "I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this."  I don't think there's a problem there because of all the Catholic names I've run on familysearch. org, the only time any of them have come up has been in connection with an IGI (International Genealogical Index) take directly from primary source records.  Although I'm sure it happens that people who were Catholic have converted to the Mormon faith and there are Catholic ancestors who are also now Mormons, apparently none of them share ancestors with me or my husband.   The returns on the results page would say "member supplied" somewhere on the individual page for the person.  I just don't think Catholics have flocked to the Mormon religion in the numbers that other faiths have. 

                        For example, if you run my great-grandfather, Luigi Cannella, this is what you get for a result:  LUIGI CANNELLA - International Genealogical Index / SE
                        Gender: Male Marriage: 08 SEP 1849 Itri, Latina, Italy. 

                        When you click on his name the page you get tells you basically the same thing but because it is for a marriage so you also get: Spouse:  MARIA LORETA CARDI    Marriage:  08 SEP 1849   Itri, Latina, Italy

                        And at the bottom, the source of this information which is one of the Itri films of primary source records: Batch No.:  M840603    Dates: 1840 - 1861    Source Call No.: 1173755    Type:  Film; which is this film -> Matrimoni ag. 1840-1861 FHL INTL Film 1173755.

                        As far as I'm concerned, if someone was born Catholic, lived life as a Catholic and died in the Catholic faith or any other faith for that matter, something someone does many decades farther down the road isn't going to change that fact that they were Catholics.  It's after the fact and it's not going to change a single thing that has transpired in the past.  I look at it rather like having dual citizenship or two passports... one for the US and one for Italy for those folks who qualify.

                        " no longer available for the on line database that one pays for??"   I guess you're talking about the Generations Network sites here?   I had asked one of the volunteers at my FHC whom I knew was a Mormon if the Mormon's owned what Ancestry and it's sister sites' parent company was then known as "My Family.com" and was told "No" and that the FHC's had to pay for their access to Ancestry which she thought was unfair given that most of the content on Ancestry & company was materials that the Mormons had given them access to.

                        At any rate, none of the Itri material has ever been available through the pay sites of Ancestry or Genealogy.  I wish it were since it would be much more convenient.  I've gotten tons more research done on Hubby's French Canadian ancestors now that Ancestry has the Drouin* Collection on line.  *The Drouin Institute of Montréal when out in the 1930-1940's and filmed every repertoire aka parish register that was in existence at the time for the whole of Quebec.  The repertoire were, up into the 20th century, the official vital records of Quebec so with the Drouin films, it is possible to trace one's Fre-Can ancestors back to the beginning of New France and the first ancestors to come over from France in the 1600's.   I have often times wished that there existed something similar for Itri and Italy.

                        "Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based on objections,. ..."  familysearch. org, where one would find member supplied information thus indicating that someone descended from that person or persons had become a Mormon and submitted their ancestors, is free.   what the jewish people were objecting to where the member supplied information and registration of Jewish ancestors as Mormons.  Just as you won't find too many Catholic ancestors in the Mormon database, you won't find many Jewish ancestors. 

                        Look around and you can probably find the program "The Mormons" on a PBS DVD or maybe even your local library might have it in their collection.  It takes a lot of the mystery out of the Mormon faith which so many of us rely on for our research materials but know so little about.  This is from the PBS Store http://www.shoppbs. org/ - The Mormons Single DVD  Item No. MORM601 - Description:
                        The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is one of America's fastest growing religions, and its influence circles the globe. Yet the birth of Mormonism and its history is one of America's great neglected narratives. This four-hour documentary brings together FRONTLINE and AMERICAN EXPERIENCE in their first co-production to provide a searching portrait of this fascinating but often misunderstood religion.



                        Ancestry databases are records, periodicals, rare books, family genealogies, directories, maps, etc most of which would be otherwise inaccessible to most people by virtue of geographic separation from where the ancestors lived and the time constraints of trying to get in where the materials are during the hours a repository is open.  For example, what Ancestry has are numerous databases such as the Drouin, US, English and Canadian censuses, digitized forms of publications such as the rare early 5 volume 20th century publication "Staten Island and Its People : A History, 1609-1929" or Arnold's "Vital Record of Rhode Island, 1636-1850, First Series, Births, Marriages and Deaths : a Family Register for the People".

                        An Ancestry subscription can it's place in one's research.  As much as I love the American French Genealogical Society up in Woonsocket, it's having the Drouin available to me 24/7 through my Ancestry subscription that has gotten me where I am with the Fre-Can ancestors.  Ancestry can't replace the AFGS but it certainly has gotten me light years ahead in that line of research now that I don't have to wait to get time to get into the AFGS when they're open and when I do get in, I can make better use of the trip expanding upon what are know known and confirmed ancestors.

                        As far as what "Vault" means, I'm still trying to find that out without bringing attention to the Itri films at my FHC that are now listed as "Vault" on the familysearch. org web site.  I was pleased to see when I did my earlier reply that films that had been "Vault" on the weekend had changed in designation but still none to happy to see that nearly all the Processetti are now "Vault".  However, it's a whole lot easier to live without access to the Processetti than without the BMD films.

                        Linda


                        marie saccoccio <saccocciom@yahoo. com> wrote:
                        Linda, I find this fascinating and distrubing as I really did not know about the posthumous baptisms.  I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this.  Also, when you say the films for Itri are now in the VAULT, do you mean they are no longer available for the online database that one pays for?? 
                         
                        Don't kid yourself, the Mormons have grown very rich off their database.  I am sure that finances so many of their endeavors.  I would love to see the financials on ancestry.com.  Let me see if I can find anything on that subject.
                         
                        Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based on objections, since they make so much money off it.  Exclsion of every group that objects would dent into their profit margin. 
                         
                        Marie  

                        Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                        Why indeed?  If I were urber-suspicious, I'd think that it had something to do with the PBS running of the program on the Mormons and the Italian government objecting to the films being out there since the information in them is used by Mormons to have their ancestors posthumously baptized into the Mormon faith.  Somehow, though, I think it just a mundane coincidence that PBS stations around here ran the Mormon program at least 4 times a couple of weeks back that I remember. 

                        That's not to say that there haven't been some groups that have objected to having their people recorded for posterity as Mormons.  People of the Jewish faith took great exception to having their ancestors listed as "Mormon" and those people have been removed from the Mormon registers.  Now, only if a former member of the Jewish faith submits their own personal ancestors, does a Jewish ancestor get baptized a Mormon.  When I saw that segment in the program I thought the speaker's attitude a bit pompus.  after all, those ancestors might be that Mormon member's ancestors BUT they are also the ancestors of other people who are of the Jewish faith and might object just as deeply to having their ancestors' faith changed and having someone 100 years from now think that these folks were always Mormon.

                        I cringe every time the whole thing about the posthumous baptism gets widespread mention such as on the PBS program because I'm afraid that if too many people or religious groups got their backs ups and started complaining and demanding that their ancestors be struck from the registers of Mormons as was done with those of the Jewish faith, that the access to all the materials that we now enjoy will be denied those who are not Mormon.  My whole take on the thing is that if someone died a Lutheran, Catholic, Buddhist, Shinto, Episcopalian, Methodist or whatever and had considered themselves in life and had practiced that faith in their lifetime, then someone coming along 100 years later and baptizing them without their knowledge or consent really doesn't change a thing of what happened in the past and is pointless but if it puts someone else at ease within their chosen religion, I can't see much harm in it.


                        But I do see a great deal of harm to people's research if access to the information in the films is denied.  I wonder if it's just the films on Itri or all the Italian films?

                        Linda


                        marie saccoccio <saccocciom@yahoo. com> wrote:
                        I did some searching and there is a vault outside of Salt Lake City where these are kept.  It actually is a whole in the side of a mountain to protect them.  Looks kind of space age!!!  When you go to Salt Lake City you can view them but you have to order them before hand.  It says that some are chosen for safekeeping.  I bet there is more to this than meets the eye!!  Why Itri of all places?? 
                         
                        Marie  

                        Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                        I think so...I went in one day when Verna was pulling films and I asked her about what she was doing and she showed me a list that had come from Salt Lake that our director wanted the volunteers to pull.  U know what a stickler he seems to be.  I'm afraid to ask and bring attention to the films...I wish there were some way we could spirit them out of there and have bootlegs made...I'd definitely want to share the cost especially if the alternative is having all that information locked away where we can't see it any more.

                        Linda

                        Jason Soscia <jsoscia3@yahoo. com> wrote:
                        Can they really recall them back to Salt Lake?  I paid for most of those Itri films to be kept there indefinitely.

                        miyukichan0987 <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                        I noticed while composing a response to our newest member, Martine,
                        that quite a few of the films for Itri now say "VAULT INTL Film"
                        rather than "FHL INTL Film'.

                        I do know that under certain circumstances, films that were previously
                        available to research, suddenly become restricted for reasons no one
                        aka the volunteers at my FHC has been able to tell me because they
                        don't know either. They just get notices from Salt Lake telling them
                        to pull the films and return them to the FHL.

                        If these films that are now "Vault" are to be restricted it would be a
                        major blow to all of us trying to research our ancestors in Itri! It
                        has been frustrating enough for me that I can only research the period
                        between 1809 -1865 but now to lose a major portion of the films of
                        that period would be an insurmountable research tragedy!

                        15 of the 26 films of records for Itri are now designated "Vault". I
                        called my FHC to see if that means the records are no longer available
                        but the volunteer did not know what "Vault" meant with respect to
                        films already on loan. So far, the Itrani films at the Warwick, RI
                        FHC that are on "Indefinite" loan and which constitute nearly a
                        complete set of all the 26 films available, all seem to still be there.

                        However, since I don't know if they will at some point in the near
                        future be ordered pulled from the files and sent back to Salt Lake,
                        I'm going to start living at the FHC because I am far from done with
                        searching through those films.

                        Can anyone tell the rest of us if "Vault" means that we are about to
                        lose access to over 50% of the available films on Itri or not??

                        Linda



                        Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.


                        Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.



                        Marie Elena Saccoccio

                        Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.


                        Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.



                        Marie Elena Saccoccio

                        Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.


                        Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.



                        Marie Elena Saccoccio


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                      • Linda Peloquin
                        Marie, It was run several times just a couple of weeks ago...guess you missed it. Both WGBH, Boston and WSBE, RI ran it a couple of times each. On those days
                        Message 11 of 14 , Mar 11, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Marie,

                          It was run several times just a couple of weeks ago...guess you missed it.  Both WGBH, Boston and WSBE, RI ran it a couple of times each.  On those days they ran it during normal evening hours & then repeated it during the red eye hours.  I know 'cause I zonked trying to stay awake watching it, woke up and it was still on so I finished watching the program thinking I'd only missed a few minutes.  Only later did I realize that when I had woken-up , what I woke-up during was the second showing of the night during the red eye hours.  I was mightily disoriented that night after my two installment sleep delayed viewing of the show and needed a caffeine IV the next day!!!

                          Linda

                          marie saccoccio <saccocciom@...> wrote:
                          LInda, I see that there has been a dispute between Ancestry and "the Mormons."  I now have no idea who really owns Ancestry.  Perhaps SEC filings would share some light on this. I am curious.
                           
                          I sort of watched the PBS special on Mormons when it was on TV in Boston.  Mitt Romney was our governor, then presidential candidate so it was good to see.  I would like to watch it again though as I missed some parts.
                           
                          Marie
                           
                           
                           
                          Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                          Marie,

                          "I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this."  I don't think there's a problem there because of all the Catholic names I've run on familysearch. org, the only time any of them have come up has been in connection with an IGI (International Genealogical Index) take directly from primary source records.  Although I'm sure it happens that people who were Catholic have converted to the Mormon faith and there are Catholic ancestors who are also now Mormons, apparently none of them share ancestors with me or my husband.   The returns on the results page would say "member supplied" somewhere on the individual page for the person.  I just don't think Catholics have flocked to the Mormon religion in the numbers that other faiths have. 

                          For example, if you run my great-grandfather, Luigi Cannella, this is what you get for a result:  LUIGI CANNELLA - International Genealogical Index / SE
                          Gender: Male Marriage: 08 SEP 1849 Itri, Latina, Italy. 

                          When you click on his name the page you get tells you basically the same thing but because it is for a marriage so you also get: Spouse:  MARIA LORETA CARDI    Marriage:  08 SEP 1849   Itri, Latina, Italy

                          And at the bottom, the source of this information which is one of the Itri films of primary source records: Batch No.:  M840603    Dates: 1840 - 1861    Source Call No.: 1173755    Type:  Film; which is this film -> Matrimoni ag. 1840-1861 FHL INTL Film 1173755.

                          As far as I'm concerned, if someone was born Catholic, lived life as a Catholic and died in the Catholic faith or any other faith for that matter, something someone does many decades farther down the road isn't going to change that fact that they were Catholics.  It's after the fact and it's not going to change a single thing that has transpired in the past.  I look at it rather like having dual citizenship or two passports... one for the US and one for Italy for those folks who qualify.

                          " no longer available for the on line database that one pays for??"   I guess you're talking about the Generations Network sites here?   I had asked one of the volunteers at my FHC whom I knew was a Mormon if the Mormon's owned what Ancestry and it's sister sites' parent company was then known as "My Family.com" and was told "No" and that the FHC's had to pay for their access to Ancestry which she thought was unfair given that most of the content on Ancestry & company was materials that the Mormons had given them access to.

                          At any rate, none of the Itri material has ever been available through the pay sites of Ancestry or Genealogy.  I wish it were since it would be much more convenient.  I've gotten tons more research done on Hubby's French Canadian ancestors now that Ancestry has the Drouin* Collection on line.  *The Drouin Institute of Montréal when out in the 1930-1940's and filmed every repertoire aka parish register that was in existence at the time for the whole of Quebec.  The repertoire were, up into the 20th century, the official vital records of Quebec so with the Drouin films, it is possible to trace one's Fre-Can ancestors back to the beginning of New France and the first ancestors to come over from France in the 1600's.   I have often times wished that there existed something similar for Itri and Italy.

                          "Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based on objections,. ..."  familysearch. org, where one would find member supplied information thus indicating that someone descended from that person or persons had become a Mormon and submitted their ancestors, is free.   what the jewish people were objecting to where the member supplied information and registration of Jewish ancestors as Mormons.  Just as you won't find too many Catholic ancestors in the Mormon database, you won't find many Jewish ancestors. 

                          Look around and you can probably find the program "The Mormons" on a PBS DVD or maybe even your local library might have it in their collection.  It takes a lot of the mystery out of the Mormon faith which so many of us rely on for our research materials but know so little about.  This is from the PBS Store http://www.shoppbs. org/ - The Mormons Single DVD  Item No. MORM601 - Description:
                          The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is one of America's fastest growing religions, and its influence circles the globe. Yet the birth of Mormonism and its history is one of America's great neglected narratives. This four-hour documentary brings together FRONTLINE and AMERICAN EXPERIENCE in their first co-production to provide a searching portrait of this fascinating but often misunderstood religion.



                          Ancestry databases are records, periodicals, rare books, family genealogies, directories, maps, etc most of which would be otherwise inaccessible to most people by virtue of geographic separation from where the ancestors lived and the time constraints of trying to get in where the materials are during the hours a repository is open.  For example, what Ancestry has are numerous databases such as the Drouin, US, English and Canadian censuses, digitized forms of publications such as the rare early 5 volume 20th century publication "Staten Island and Its People : A History, 1609-1929" or Arnold's "Vital Record of Rhode Island, 1636-1850, First Series, Births, Marriages and Deaths : a Family Register for the People".

                          An Ancestry subscription can it's place in one's research.  As much as I love the American French Genealogical Society up in Woonsocket, it's having the Drouin available to me 24/7 through my Ancestry subscription that has gotten me where I am with the Fre-Can ancestors.  Ancestry can't replace the AFGS but it certainly has gotten me light years ahead in that line of research now that I don't have to wait to get time to get into the AFGS when they're open and when I do get in, I can make better use of the trip expanding upon what are know known and confirmed ancestors.

                          As far as what "Vault" means, I'm still trying to find that out without bringing attention to the Itri films at my FHC that are now listed as "Vault" on the familysearch. org web site.  I was pleased to see when I did my earlier reply that films that had been "Vault" on the weekend had changed in designation but still none to happy to see that nearly all the Processetti are now "Vault".  However, it's a whole lot easier to live without access to the Processetti than without the BMD films.

                          Linda


                          marie saccoccio <saccocciom@yahoo. com> wrote:
                          Linda, I find this fascinating and distrubing as I really did not know about the posthumous baptisms.  I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this.  Also, when you say the films for Itri are now in the VAULT, do you mean they are no longer available for the online database that one pays for?? 
                           
                          Don't kid yourself, the Mormons have grown very rich off their database.  I am sure that finances so many of their endeavors.  I would love to see the financials on ancestry.com.  Let me see if I can find anything on that subject.
                           
                          Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based on objections, since they make so much money off it.  Exclsion of every group that objects would dent into their profit margin. 
                           
                          Marie  

                          Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                          Why indeed?  If I were urber-suspicious, I'd think that it had something to do with the PBS running of the program on the Mormons and the Italian government objecting to the films being out there since the information in them is used by Mormons to have their ancestors posthumously baptized into the Mormon faith.  Somehow, though, I think it just a mundane coincidence that PBS stations around here ran the Mormon program at least 4 times a couple of weeks back that I remember. 

                          That's not to say that there haven't been some groups that have objected to having their people recorded for posterity as Mormons.  People of the Jewish faith took great exception to having their ancestors listed as "Mormon" and those people have been removed from the Mormon registers.  Now, only if a former member of the Jewish faith submits their own personal ancestors, does a Jewish ancestor get baptized a Mormon.  When I saw that segment in the program I thought the speaker's attitude a bit pompus.  after all, those ancestors might be that Mormon member's ancestors BUT they are also the ancestors of other people who are of the Jewish faith and might object just as deeply to having their ancestors' faith changed and having someone 100 years from now think that these folks were always Mormon.

                          I cringe every time the whole thing about the posthumous baptism gets widespread mention such as on the PBS program because I'm afraid that if too many people or religious groups got their backs ups and started complaining and demanding that their ancestors be struck from the registers of Mormons as was done with those of the Jewish faith, that the access to all the materials that we now enjoy will be denied those who are not Mormon.  My whole take on the thing is that if someone died a Lutheran, Catholic, Buddhist, Shinto, Episcopalian, Methodist or whatever and had considered themselves in life and had practiced that faith in their lifetime, then someone coming along 100 years later and baptizing them without their knowledge or consent really doesn't change a thing of what happened in the past and is pointless but if it puts someone else at ease within their chosen religion, I can't see much harm in it.


                          But I do see a great deal of harm to people's research if access to the information in the films is denied.  I wonder if it's just the films on Itri or all the Italian films?

                          Linda


                          marie saccoccio <saccocciom@yahoo. com> wrote:
                          I did some searching and there is a vault outside of Salt Lake City where these are kept.  It actually is a whole in the side of a mountain to protect them.  Looks kind of space age!!!  When you go to Salt Lake City you can view them but you have to order them before hand.  It says that some are chosen for safekeeping.  I bet there is more to this than meets the eye!!  Why Itri of all places?? 
                           
                          Marie  

                          Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                          I think so...I went in one day when Verna was pulling films and I asked her about what she was doing and she showed me a list that had come from Salt Lake that our director wanted the volunteers to pull.  U know what a stickler he seems to be.  I'm afraid to ask and bring attention to the films...I wish there were some way we could spirit them out of there and have bootlegs made...I'd definitely want to share the cost especially if the alternative is having all that information locked away where we can't see it any more.

                          Linda

                          Jason Soscia <jsoscia3@yahoo. com> wrote:
                          Can they really recall them back to Salt Lake?  I paid for most of those Itri films to be kept there indefinitely.

                          miyukichan0987 <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                          I noticed while composing a response to our newest member, Martine,
                          that quite a few of the films for Itri now say "VAULT INTL Film"
                          rather than "FHL INTL Film'.

                          I do know that under certain circumstances, films that were previously
                          available to research, suddenly become restricted for reasons no one
                          aka the volunteers at my FHC has been able to tell me because they
                          don't know either. They just get notices from Salt Lake telling them
                          to pull the films and return them to the FHL.

                          If these films that are now "Vault" are to be restricted it would be a
                          major blow to all of us trying to research our ancestors in Itri! It
                          has been frustrating enough for me that I can only research the period
                          between 1809 -1865 but now to lose a major portion of the films of
                          that period would be an insurmountable research tragedy!

                          15 of the 26 films of records for Itri are now designated "Vault". I
                          called my FHC to see if that means the records are no longer available
                          but the volunteer did not know what "Vault" meant with respect to
                          films already on loan. So far, the Itrani films at the Warwick, RI
                          FHC that are on "Indefinite" loan and which constitute nearly a
                          complete set of all the 26 films available, all seem to still be there.

                          However, since I don't know if they will at some point in the near
                          future be ordered pulled from the files and sent back to Salt Lake,
                          I'm going to start living at the FHC because I am far from done with
                          searching through those films.

                          Can anyone tell the rest of us if "Vault" means that we are about to
                          lose access to over 50% of the available films on Itri or not??

                          Linda



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                        • marie saccoccio
                          LOL My recollection of it was that it was rather boring but informative. I should pay more attention next time. Linda Peloquin
                          Message 12 of 14 , Mar 11, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            LOL  My recollection of it was that it was rather boring but informative.  I should pay more attention next time.   

                            Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@...> wrote:
                            Marie,

                            It was run several times just a couple of weeks ago...guess you missed it.  Both WGBH, Boston and WSBE, RI ran it a couple of times each.  On those days they ran it during normal evening hours & then repeated it during the red eye hours.  I know 'cause I zonked trying to stay awake watching it, woke up and it was still on so I finished watching the program thinking I'd only missed a few minutes.  Only later did I realize that when I had woken-up , what I woke-up during was the second showing of the night during the red eye hours.  I was mightily disoriented that night after my two installment sleep delayed viewing of the show and needed a caffeine IV the next day!!!

                            Linda

                            marie saccoccio <saccocciom@yahoo. com> wrote:
                            LInda, I see that there has been a dispute between Ancestry and "the Mormons."  I now have no idea who really owns Ancestry.  Perhaps SEC filings would share some light on this. I am curious.
                             
                            I sort of watched the PBS special on Mormons when it was on TV in Boston.  Mitt Romney was our governor, then presidential candidate so it was good to see.  I would like to watch it again though as I missed some parts.
                             
                            Marie
                             
                             
                             
                            Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                            Marie,

                            "I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this."  I don't think there's a problem there because of all the Catholic names I've run on familysearch. org, the only time any of them have come up has been in connection with an IGI (International Genealogical Index) take directly from primary source records.  Although I'm sure it happens that people who were Catholic have converted to the Mormon faith and there are Catholic ancestors who are also now Mormons, apparently none of them share ancestors with me or my husband.   The returns on the results page would say "member supplied" somewhere on the individual page for the person.  I just don't think Catholics have flocked to the Mormon religion in the numbers that other faiths have. 

                            For example, if you run my great-grandfather, Luigi Cannella, this is what you get for a result:  LUIGI CANNELLA - International Genealogical Index / SE
                            Gender: Male Marriage: 08 SEP 1849 Itri, Latina, Italy. 

                            When you click on his name the page you get tells you basically the same thing but because it is for a marriage so you also get: Spouse:  MARIA LORETA CARDI    Marriage:  08 SEP 1849   Itri, Latina, Italy

                            And at the bottom, the source of this information which is one of the Itri films of primary source records: Batch No.:  M840603    Dates: 1840 - 1861    Source Call No.: 1173755    Type:  Film; which is this film -> Matrimoni ag. 1840-1861 FHL INTL Film 1173755.

                            As far as I'm concerned, if someone was born Catholic, lived life as a Catholic and died in the Catholic faith or any other faith for that matter, something someone does many decades farther down the road isn't going to change that fact that they were Catholics.  It's after the fact and it's not going to change a single thing that has transpired in the past.  I look at it rather like having dual citizenship or two passports... one for the US and one for Italy for those folks who qualify.

                            " no longer available for the on line database that one pays for??"   I guess you're talking about the Generations Network sites here?   I had asked one of the volunteers at my FHC whom I knew was a Mormon if the Mormon's owned what Ancestry and it's sister sites' parent company was then known as "My Family.com" and was told "No" and that the FHC's had to pay for their access to Ancestry which she thought was unfair given that most of the content on Ancestry & company was materials that the Mormons had given them access to.

                            At any rate, none of the Itri material has ever been available through the pay sites of Ancestry or Genealogy.  I wish it were since it would be much more convenient.  I've gotten tons more research done on Hubby's French Canadian ancestors now that Ancestry has the Drouin* Collection on line.  *The Drouin Institute of Montréal when out in the 1930-1940's and filmed every repertoire aka parish register that was in existence at the time for the whole of Quebec.  The repertoire were, up into the 20th century, the official vital records of Quebec so with the Drouin films, it is possible to trace one's Fre-Can ancestors back to the beginning of New France and the first ancestors to come over from France in the 1600's.   I have often times wished that there existed something similar for Itri and Italy.

                            "Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based on objections,. ..."  familysearch. org, where one would find member supplied information thus indicating that someone descended from that person or persons had become a Mormon and submitted their ancestors, is free.   what the jewish people were objecting to where the member supplied information and registration of Jewish ancestors as Mormons.  Just as you won't find too many Catholic ancestors in the Mormon database, you won't find many Jewish ancestors. 

                            Look around and you can probably find the program "The Mormons" on a PBS DVD or maybe even your local library might have it in their collection.  It takes a lot of the mystery out of the Mormon faith which so many of us rely on for our research materials but know so little about.  This is from the PBS Store http://www.shoppbs. org/ - The Mormons Single DVD  Item No. MORM601 - Description:
                            The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is one of America's fastest growing religions, and its influence circles the globe. Yet the birth of Mormonism and its history is one of America's great neglected narratives. This four-hour documentary brings together FRONTLINE and AMERICAN EXPERIENCE in their first co-production to provide a searching portrait of this fascinating but often misunderstood religion.



                            Ancestry databases are records, periodicals, rare books, family genealogies, directories, maps, etc most of which would be otherwise inaccessible to most people by virtue of geographic separation from where the ancestors lived and the time constraints of trying to get in where the materials are during the hours a repository is open.  For example, what Ancestry has are numerous databases such as the Drouin, US, English and Canadian censuses, digitized forms of publications such as the rare early 5 volume 20th century publication "Staten Island and Its People : A History, 1609-1929" or Arnold's "Vital Record of Rhode Island, 1636-1850, First Series, Births, Marriages and Deaths : a Family Register for the People".

                            An Ancestry subscription can it's place in one's research.  As much as I love the American French Genealogical Society up in Woonsocket, it's having the Drouin available to me 24/7 through my Ancestry subscription that has gotten me where I am with the Fre-Can ancestors.  Ancestry can't replace the AFGS but it certainly has gotten me light years ahead in that line of research now that I don't have to wait to get time to get into the AFGS when they're open and when I do get in, I can make better use of the trip expanding upon what are know known and confirmed ancestors.

                            As far as what "Vault" means, I'm still trying to find that out without bringing attention to the Itri films at my FHC that are now listed as "Vault" on the familysearch. org web site.  I was pleased to see when I did my earlier reply that films that had been "Vault" on the weekend had changed in designation but still none to happy to see that nearly all the Processetti are now "Vault".  However, it's a whole lot easier to live without access to the Processetti than without the BMD films.

                            Linda


                            marie saccoccio <saccocciom@yahoo. com> wrote:
                            Linda, I find this fascinating and distrubing as I really did not know about the posthumous baptisms.  I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this.  Also, when you say the films for Itri are now in the VAULT, do you mean they are no longer available for the online database that one pays for?? 
                             
                            Don't kid yourself, the Mormons have grown very rich off their database.  I am sure that finances so many of their endeavors.  I would love to see the financials on ancestry.com.  Let me see if I can find anything on that subject.
                             
                            Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based on objections, since they make so much money off it.  Exclsion of every group that objects would dent into their profit margin. 
                             
                            Marie  

                            Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                            Why indeed?  If I were urber-suspicious, I'd think that it had something to do with the PBS running of the program on the Mormons and the Italian government objecting to the films being out there since the information in them is used by Mormons to have their ancestors posthumously baptized into the Mormon faith.  Somehow, though, I think it just a mundane coincidence that PBS stations around here ran the Mormon program at least 4 times a couple of weeks back that I remember. 

                            That's not to say that there haven't been some groups that have objected to having their people recorded for posterity as Mormons.  People of the Jewish faith took great exception to having their ancestors listed as "Mormon" and those people have been removed from the Mormon registers.  Now, only if a former member of the Jewish faith submits their own personal ancestors, does a Jewish ancestor get baptized a Mormon.  When I saw that segment in the program I thought the speaker's attitude a bit pompus.  after all, those ancestors might be that Mormon member's ancestors BUT they are also the ancestors of other people who are of the Jewish faith and might object just as deeply to having their ancestors' faith changed and having someone 100 years from now think that these folks were always Mormon.

                            I cringe every time the whole thing about the posthumous baptism gets widespread mention such as on the PBS program because I'm afraid that if too many people or religious groups got their backs ups and started complaining and demanding that their ancestors be struck from the registers of Mormons as was done with those of the Jewish faith, that the access to all the materials that we now enjoy will be denied those who are not Mormon.  My whole take on the thing is that if someone died a Lutheran, Catholic, Buddhist, Shinto, Episcopalian, Methodist or whatever and had considered themselves in life and had practiced that faith in their lifetime, then someone coming along 100 years later and baptizing them without their knowledge or consent really doesn't change a thing of what happened in the past and is pointless but if it puts someone else at ease within their chosen religion, I can't see much harm in it.


                            But I do see a great deal of harm to people's research if access to the information in the films is denied.  I wonder if it's just the films on Itri or all the Italian films?

                            Linda


                            marie saccoccio <saccocciom@yahoo. com> wrote:
                            I did some searching and there is a vault outside of Salt Lake City where these are kept.  It actually is a whole in the side of a mountain to protect them.  Looks kind of space age!!!  When you go to Salt Lake City you can view them but you have to order them before hand.  It says that some are chosen for safekeeping.  I bet there is more to this than meets the eye!!  Why Itri of all places?? 
                             
                            Marie  

                            Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                            I think so...I went in one day when Verna was pulling films and I asked her about what she was doing and she showed me a list that had come from Salt Lake that our director wanted the volunteers to pull.  U know what a stickler he seems to be.  I'm afraid to ask and bring attention to the films...I wish there were some way we could spirit them out of there and have bootlegs made...I'd definitely want to share the cost especially if the alternative is having all that information locked away where we can't see it any more.

                            Linda

                            Jason Soscia <jsoscia3@yahoo. com> wrote:
                            Can they really recall them back to Salt Lake?  I paid for most of those Itri films to be kept there indefinitely.

                            miyukichan0987 <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                            I noticed while composing a response to our newest member, Martine,
                            that quite a few of the films for Itri now say "VAULT INTL Film"
                            rather than "FHL INTL Film'.

                            I do know that under certain circumstances, films that were previously
                            available to research, suddenly become restricted for reasons no one
                            aka the volunteers at my FHC has been able to tell me because they
                            don't know either. They just get notices from Salt Lake telling them
                            to pull the films and return them to the FHL.

                            If these films that are now "Vault" are to be restricted it would be a
                            major blow to all of us trying to research our ancestors in Itri! It
                            has been frustrating enough for me that I can only research the period
                            between 1809 -1865 but now to lose a major portion of the films of
                            that period would be an insurmountable research tragedy!

                            15 of the 26 films of records for Itri are now designated "Vault". I
                            called my FHC to see if that means the records are no longer available
                            but the volunteer did not know what "Vault" meant with respect to
                            films already on loan. So far, the Itrani films at the Warwick, RI
                            FHC that are on "Indefinite" loan and which constitute nearly a
                            complete set of all the 26 films available, all seem to still be there.

                            However, since I don't know if they will at some point in the near
                            future be ordered pulled from the files and sent back to Salt Lake,
                            I'm going to start living at the FHC because I am far from done with
                            searching through those films.

                            Can anyone tell the rest of us if "Vault" means that we are about to
                            lose access to over 50% of the available films on Itri or not??

                            Linda



                            Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.


                            Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.



                            Marie Elena Saccoccio

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                            Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.



                            Marie Elena Saccoccio

                            Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.


                            Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.



                            Marie Elena Saccoccio

                            Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.


                            Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.



                            Marie Elena Saccoccio


                            Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

                          • rickj100001
                            Linda, After reading these posts regarding the VAULT v. FHL categories on the family search website, I also became a little alarmed. I don t know why
                            Message 13 of 14 , Mar 16, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Linda,

                              After reading these posts regarding the "VAULT" v. "FHL" categories
                              on the family search website, I also became a little alarmed. I
                              don't know why certain films are categorized the way they are, and I
                              doubt that the volunteers at my local FHC would know either.

                              But I have a printout of the FHL Catalog for Itri that I generated
                              on 7/1/07. The printout shows almost all of the Processetti films
                              (save for the two earliest), two Nati films (1824-1831 and 1832-
                              1839) and two Morti films (ag. 1827 - magg. 1846 and 1857-1861)
                              listed as "VAULT INTL."

                              Since the date of that printout, I have ordered and viewed all of
                              the Nati and Morti films (including those listed as VAULT INTL)
                              without any problem, and none were pulled from the files prior to my
                              consent (currently I have two Processetti films listed as VAULT on
                              indefinite loan without any problems).

                              So whatever the reasons for the categorizing of these films, it does
                              not mean that they are unavailable outside of Salt Lake City. Again,
                              I don't know what it means, but I haven't had a problem ordering
                              films categorized as VAULT.

                              Hope this puts everyone a little more at ease.

                              Rick


                              --- In FraDiavolo@yahoogroups.com, marie saccoccio <saccocciom@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > LOL My recollection of it was that it was rather boring but
                              informative. I should pay more attention next time.
                              >
                              > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@...> wrote: Marie,
                              >
                              > It was run several times just a couple of weeks ago...guess you
                              missed it. Both WGBH, Boston and WSBE, RI ran it a couple of times
                              each. On those days they ran it during normal evening hours & then
                              repeated it during the red eye hours. I know 'cause I zonked trying
                              to stay awake watching it, woke up and it was still on so I finished
                              watching the program thinking I'd only missed a few minutes. Only
                              later did I realize that when I had woken-up , what I woke-up during
                              was the second showing of the night during the red eye hours. I was
                              mightily disoriented that night after my two installment sleep
                              delayed viewing of the show and needed a caffeine IV the next day!!!
                              >
                              > Linda
                              >
                              > marie saccoccio <saccocciom@...> wrote:
                              > LInda, I see that there has been a dispute between Ancestry
                              and "the Mormons." I now have no idea who really owns Ancestry.
                              Perhaps SEC filings would share some light on this. I am curious.
                              >
                              > I sort of watched the PBS special on Mormons when it was on TV
                              in Boston. Mitt Romney was our governor, then presidential
                              candidate so it was good to see. I would like to watch it again
                              though as I missed some parts.
                              >
                              > Marie
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@...> wrote:
                              > Marie,
                              >
                              > "I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this." I don't think
                              there's a problem there because of all the Catholic names I've run
                              on familysearch.org, the only time any of them have come up has been
                              in connection with an IGI (International Genealogical Index) take
                              directly from primary source records. Although I'm sure it happens
                              that people who were Catholic have converted to the Mormon faith and
                              there are Catholic ancestors who are also now Mormons, apparently
                              none of them share ancestors with me or my husband. The returns on
                              the results page would say "member supplied" somewhere on the
                              individual page for the person. I just don't think Catholics have
                              flocked to the Mormon religion in the numbers that other faiths
                              have.
                              >
                              > For example, if you run my great-grandfather, Luigi Cannella, this
                              is what you get for a result: LUIGI CANNELLA - International
                              Genealogical Index / SE
                              > Gender: Male Marriage: 08 SEP 1849 Itri, Latina, Italy.
                              >
                              > When you click on his name the page you get tells you basically
                              the same thing but because it is for a marriage so you also get:
                              Spouse: MARIA LORETA CARDI Marriage: 08 SEP 1849 Itri,
                              Latina, Italy
                              >
                              > And at the bottom, the source of this information which is one of
                              the Itri films of primary source records: Batch No.: M840603
                              Dates: 1840 - 1861 Source Call No.: 1173755 Type: Film; which
                              is this film -> Matrimoni ag. 1840-1861 FHL INTL Film 1173755.
                              >
                              > As far as I'm concerned, if someone was born Catholic, lived life
                              as a Catholic and died in the Catholic faith or any other faith for
                              that matter, something someone does many decades farther down the
                              road isn't going to change that fact that they were Catholics. It's
                              after the fact and it's not going to change a single thing that has
                              transpired in the past. I look at it rather like having dual
                              citizenship or two passports...one for the US and one for Italy for
                              those folks who qualify.
                              >
                              > " no longer available for the on line database that one pays
                              for??" I guess you're talking about the Generations Network sites
                              here? I had asked one of the volunteers at my FHC whom I knew was
                              a Mormon if the Mormon's owned what Ancestry and it's sister sites'
                              parent company was then known as "My Family.com" and was told "No"
                              and that the FHC's had to pay for their access to Ancestry which she
                              thought was unfair given that most of the content on Ancestry &
                              company was materials that the Mormons had given them access to.
                              >
                              > At any rate, none of the Itri material has ever been available
                              through the pay sites of Ancestry or Genealogy. I wish it were
                              since it would be much more convenient. I've gotten tons more
                              research done on Hubby's French Canadian ancestors now that Ancestry
                              has the Drouin* Collection on line. *The Drouin Institute of
                              Montréal when out in the 1930-1940's and filmed every repertoire
                              aka parish register that was in existence at the time for the whole
                              of Quebec. The repertoire were, up into the 20th century, the
                              official vital records of Quebec so with the Drouin films, it is
                              possible to trace one's Fre-Can ancestors back to the beginning of
                              New France and the first ancestors to come over from France in the
                              1600's. I have often times wished that there existed something
                              similar for Itri and Italy.
                              >
                              > "Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based
                              on objections,...." familysearch.org, where one would find member
                              supplied information thus indicating that someone descended from
                              that person or persons had become a Mormon and submitted their
                              ancestors, is free. what the jewish people were objecting to where
                              the member supplied information and registration of Jewish ancestors
                              as Mormons. Just as you won't find too many Catholic ancestors in
                              the Mormon database, you won't find many Jewish ancestors.
                              >
                              > Look around and you can probably find the program "The Mormons" on
                              a PBS DVD or maybe even your local library might have it in their
                              collection. It takes a lot of the mystery out of the Mormon faith
                              which so many of us rely on for our research materials but know so
                              little about. This is from the PBS Store http://www.shoppbs.org/ -
                              The Mormons Single DVD Item No. MORM601 - Description: The Church
                              of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is one of America's fastest
                              growing religions, and its influence circles the globe. Yet the
                              birth of Mormonism and its history is one of America's great
                              neglected narratives. This four-hour documentary brings together
                              FRONTLINE and AMERICAN EXPERIENCE in their first co-production to
                              provide a searching portrait of this fascinating but often
                              misunderstood religion.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Ancestry databases are records, periodicals, rare books, family
                              genealogies, directories, maps, etc most of which would be otherwise
                              inaccessible to most people by virtue of geographic separation from
                              where the ancestors lived and the time constraints of trying to get
                              in where the materials are during the hours a repository is open.
                              For example, what Ancestry has are numerous databases such as the
                              Drouin, US, English and Canadian censuses, digitized forms of
                              publications such as the rare early 5 volume 20th century
                              publication "Staten Island and Its People : A History, 1609-1929" or
                              Arnold's "Vital Record of Rhode Island, 1636-1850, First Series,
                              Births, Marriages and Deaths : a Family Register for the People".
                              >
                              > An Ancestry subscription can it's place in one's research. As
                              much as I love the American French Genealogical Society up in
                              Woonsocket, it's having the Drouin available to me 24/7 through my
                              Ancestry subscription that has gotten me where I am with the Fre-Can
                              ancestors. Ancestry can't replace the AFGS but it certainly has
                              gotten me light years ahead in that line of research now that I
                              don't have to wait to get time to get into the AFGS when they're
                              open and when I do get in, I can make better use of the trip
                              expanding upon what are know known and confirmed ancestors.
                              >
                              > As far as what "Vault" means, I'm still trying to find that out
                              without bringing attention to the Itri films at my FHC that are now
                              listed as "Vault" on the familysearch.org web site. I was pleased
                              to see when I did my earlier reply that films that had been "Vault"
                              on the weekend had changed in designation but still none to happy to
                              see that nearly all the Processetti are now "Vault". However, it's
                              a whole lot easier to live without access to the Processetti than
                              without the BMD films.
                              >
                              > Linda
                              >
                              >
                              > marie saccoccio <saccocciom@...> wrote:
                              > Linda, I find this fascinating and distrubing as I really did
                              not know about the posthumous baptisms. I am sure the Vatican would
                              not approve of this. Also, when you say the films for Itri are now
                              in the VAULT, do you mean they are no longer available for the
                              online database that one pays for??
                              >
                              > Don't kid yourself, the Mormons have grown very rich off their
                              database. I am sure that finances so many of their endeavors. I
                              would love to see the financials on ancestry.com. Let me see if I
                              can find anything on that subject.
                              >
                              > Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based
                              on objections, since they make so much money off it. Exclsion of
                              every group that objects would dent into their profit margin.
                              >
                              > Marie
                              >
                              > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@...> wrote:
                              > Why indeed? If I were urber-suspicious, I'd think that it
                              had something to do with the PBS running of the program on the
                              Mormons and the Italian government objecting to the films being out
                              there since the information in them is used by Mormons to have their
                              ancestors posthumously baptized into the Mormon faith. Somehow,
                              though, I think it just a mundane coincidence that PBS stations
                              around here ran the Mormon program at least 4 times a couple of
                              weeks back that I remember.
                              >
                              > That's not to say that there haven't been some groups that have
                              objected to having their people recorded for posterity as Mormons.
                              People of the Jewish faith took great exception to having their
                              ancestors listed as "Mormon" and those people have been removed from
                              the Mormon registers. Now, only if a former member of the Jewish
                              faith submits their own personal ancestors, does a Jewish ancestor
                              get baptized a Mormon. When I saw that segment in the program I
                              thought the speaker's attitude a bit pompus. after all, those
                              ancestors might be that Mormon member's ancestors BUT they are also
                              the ancestors of other people who are of the Jewish faith and might
                              object just as deeply to having their ancestors' faith changed and
                              having someone 100 years from now think that these folks were always
                              Mormon.
                              >
                              > I cringe every time the whole thing about the posthumous baptism
                              gets widespread mention such as on the PBS program because I'm
                              afraid that if too many people or religious groups got their backs
                              ups and started complaining and demanding that their ancestors be
                              struck from the registers of Mormons as was done with those of the
                              Jewish faith, that the access to all the materials that we now enjoy
                              will be denied those who are not Mormon. My whole take on the thing
                              is that if someone died a Lutheran, Catholic, Buddhist, Shinto,
                              Episcopalian, Methodist or whatever and had considered themselves in
                              life and had practiced that faith in their lifetime, then someone
                              coming along 100 years later and baptizing them without their
                              knowledge or consent really doesn't change a thing of what happened
                              in the past and is pointless but if it puts someone else at ease
                              within their chosen religion, I can't see much harm in it.
                              >
                              >
                              > But I do see a great deal of harm to people's research if access
                              to the information in the films is denied. I wonder if it's just
                              the films on Itri or all the Italian films?
                              >
                              > Linda
                              >
                              >
                              > marie saccoccio <saccocciom@...> wrote:
                              > I did some searching and there is a vault outside of Salt Lake
                              City where these are kept. It actually is a whole in the side of a
                              mountain to protect them. Looks kind of space age!!! When you go
                              to Salt Lake City you can view them but you have to order them
                              before hand. It says that some are chosen for safekeeping. I bet
                              there is more to this than meets the eye!! Why Itri of all
                              places??
                              >
                              > Marie
                              >
                              > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@...> wrote:
                              > I think so...I went in one day when Verna was pulling films
                              and I asked her about what she was doing and she showed me a list
                              that had come from Salt Lake that our director wanted the volunteers
                              to pull. U know what a stickler he seems to be. I'm afraid to ask
                              and bring attention to the films...I wish there were some way we
                              could spirit them out of there and have bootlegs made...I'd
                              definitely want to share the cost especially if the alternative is
                              having all that information locked away where we can't see it any
                              more.
                              >
                              > Linda
                              >
                              > Jason Soscia <jsoscia3@...> wrote: Can they really recall
                              them back to Salt Lake? I paid for most of those Itri films to be
                              kept there indefinitely.
                              >
                              > miyukichan0987 <miyukichan0987@...> wrote:
                              > I noticed while composing a response to our newest member,
                              Martine,
                              > that quite a few of the films for Itri now say "VAULT INTL Film"
                              > rather than "FHL INTL Film'.
                              >
                              > I do know that under certain circumstances, films that were
                              previously
                              > available to research, suddenly become restricted for reasons no
                              one
                              > aka the volunteers at my FHC has been able to tell me because they
                              > don't know either. They just get notices from Salt Lake telling
                              them
                              > to pull the films and return them to the FHL.
                              >
                              > If these films that are now "Vault" are to be restricted it would
                              be a
                              > major blow to all of us trying to research our ancestors in Itri!
                              It
                              > has been frustrating enough for me that I can only research the
                              period
                              > between 1809 -1865 but now to lose a major portion of the films of
                              > that period would be an insurmountable research tragedy!
                              >
                              > 15 of the 26 films of records for Itri are now designated "Vault".
                              I
                              > called my FHC to see if that means the records are no longer
                              available
                              > but the volunteer did not know what "Vault" meant with respect to
                              > films already on loan. So far, the Itrani films at the Warwick, RI
                              > FHC that are on "Indefinite" loan and which constitute nearly a
                              > complete set of all the 26 films available, all seem to still be
                              there.
                              >
                              > However, since I don't know if they will at some point in the near
                              > future be ordered pulled from the files and sent back to Salt Lake,
                              > I'm going to start living at the FHC because I am far from done
                              with
                              > searching through those films.
                              >
                              > Can anyone tell the rest of us if "Vault" means that we are about
                              to
                              > lose access to over 50% of the available films on Itri or not??
                              >
                              > Linda
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ---------------------------------
                              > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
                              Mobile. Try it now.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ---------------------------------
                              > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Marie Elena Saccoccio
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ---------------------------------
                              > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with
                              Yahoo! Search.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ---------------------------------
                              > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with
                              Yahoo! Search.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Marie Elena Saccoccio
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ---------------------------------
                              > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ---------------------------------
                              > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
                              Mobile. Try it now.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Marie Elena Saccoccio
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ---------------------------------
                              > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo!
                              Mobile. Try it now.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ---------------------------------
                              > Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Marie Elena Saccoccio
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ---------------------------------
                              > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with
                              Yahoo! Search.
                              >
                            • Linda Peloquin
                              Rick, That s encouraging. I have a couple of the early processetti films that are now VAULT on indefinite and I d hate for them to be sent back as I have
                              Message 14 of 14 , Mar 19, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Rick,

                                That's encouraging.  I have a couple of the early processetti films that are now "VAULT" on indefinite and I'd hate for them to be sent back as I have been able to push just a speck farther back using the records contained in them.

                                The way I had read the definition of the VAULT films on the familysearch.org it sounded like the films would only be available via a trip to Salt Lake and that one would have to reserve the films ahead.

                                I had wanted to get into my FHC this weekend and check on the films that are presently there that are now catagorized "VAULT" but had no time.   Hopefully I can get in this week.

                                I wonder if Jason has had a chance to go there yet to check.

                                Linda

                                rickj100001 <rickj100001@...> wrote:
                                Linda,

                                After reading these posts regarding the "VAULT" v. "FHL" categories
                                on the family search website, I also became a little alarmed. I
                                don't know why certain films are categorized the way they are, and I
                                doubt that the volunteers at my local FHC would know either.

                                But I have a printout of the FHL Catalog for Itri that I generated
                                on 7/1/07. The printout shows almost all of the Processetti films
                                (save for the two earliest), two Nati films (1824-1831 and 1832-
                                1839) and two Morti films (ag. 1827 - magg. 1846 and 1857-1861)
                                listed as "VAULT INTL."

                                Since the date of that printout, I have ordered and viewed all of
                                the Nati and Morti films (including those listed as VAULT INTL)
                                without any problem, and none were pulled from the files prior to my
                                consent (currently I have two Processetti films listed as VAULT on
                                indefinite loan without any problems).

                                So whatever the reasons for the categorizing of these films, it does
                                not mean that they are unavailable outside of Salt Lake City. Again,
                                I don't know what it means, but I haven't had a problem ordering
                                films categorized as VAULT.

                                Hope this puts everyone a little more at ease.

                                Rick

                                --- In FraDiavolo@yahoogro ups.com, marie saccoccio <saccocciom@ ...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > LOL My recollection of it was that it was rather boring but
                                informative. I should pay more attention next time.
                                >
                                > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ ...> wrote: Marie,
                                >
                                > It was run several times just a couple of weeks ago...guess you
                                missed it. Both WGBH, Boston and WSBE, RI ran it a couple of times
                                each. On those days they ran it during normal evening hours & then
                                repeated it during the red eye hours. I know 'cause I zonked trying
                                to stay awake watching it, woke up and it was still on so I finished
                                watching the program thinking I'd only missed a few minutes. Only
                                later did I realize that when I had woken-up , what I woke-up during
                                was the second showing of the night during the red eye hours. I was
                                mightily disoriented that night after my two installment sleep
                                delayed viewing of the show and needed a caffeine IV the next day!!!
                                >
                                > Linda
                                >
                                > marie saccoccio <saccocciom@ ...> wrote:
                                > LInda, I see that there has been a dispute between Ancestry
                                and "the Mormons." I now have no idea who really owns Ancestry.
                                Perhaps SEC filings would share some light on this. I am curious.
                                >
                                > I sort of watched the PBS special on Mormons when it was on TV
                                in Boston. Mitt Romney was our governor, then presidential
                                candidate so it was good to see. I would like to watch it again
                                though as I missed some parts.
                                >
                                > Marie
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ ...> wrote:
                                > Marie,
                                >
                                > "I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this." I don't think
                                there's a problem there because of all the Catholic names I've run
                                on familysearch. org, the only time any of them have come up has been
                                in connection with an IGI (International Genealogical Index) take
                                directly from primary source records. Although I'm sure it happens
                                that people who were Catholic have converted to the Mormon faith and
                                there are Catholic ancestors who are also now Mormons, apparently
                                none of them share ancestors with me or my husband. The returns on
                                the results page would say "member supplied" somewhere on the
                                individual page for the person. I just don't think Catholics have
                                flocked to the Mormon religion in the numbers that other faiths
                                have.
                                >
                                > For example, if you run my great-grandfather, Luigi Cannella, this
                                is what you get for a result: LUIGI CANNELLA - International
                                Genealogical Index / SE
                                > Gender: Male Marriage: 08 SEP 1849 Itri, Latina, Italy.
                                >
                                > When you click on his name the page you get tells you basically
                                the same thing but because it is for a marriage so you also get:
                                Spouse: MARIA LORETA CARDI Marriage: 08 SEP 1849 Itri,
                                Latina, Italy
                                >
                                > And at the bottom, the source of this information which is one of
                                the Itri films of primary source records: Batch No.: M840603
                                Dates: 1840 - 1861 Source Call No.: 1173755 Type: Film; which
                                is this film -> Matrimoni ag. 1840-1861 FHL INTL Film 1173755.
                                >
                                > As far as I'm concerned, if someone was born Catholic, lived life
                                as a Catholic and died in the Catholic faith or any other faith for
                                that matter, something someone does many decades farther down the
                                road isn't going to change that fact that they were Catholics. It's
                                after the fact and it's not going to change a single thing that has
                                transpired in the past. I look at it rather like having dual
                                citizenship or two passports... one for the US and one for Italy for
                                those folks who qualify.
                                >
                                > " no longer available for the on line database that one pays
                                for??" I guess you're talking about the Generations Network sites
                                here? I had asked one of the volunteers at my FHC whom I knew was
                                a Mormon if the Mormon's owned what Ancestry and it's sister sites'
                                parent company was then known as "My Family.com" and was told "No"
                                and that the FHC's had to pay for their access to Ancestry which she
                                thought was unfair given that most of the content on Ancestry &
                                company was materials that the Mormons had given them access to.
                                >
                                > At any rate, none of the Itri material has ever been available
                                through the pay sites of Ancestry or Genealogy. I wish it were
                                since it would be much more convenient. I've gotten tons more
                                research done on Hubby's French Canadian ancestors now that Ancestry
                                has the Drouin* Collection on line. *The Drouin Institute of
                                Montréal when out in the 1930-1940's and filmed every repertoire
                                aka parish register that was in existence at the time for the whole
                                of Quebec. The repertoire were, up into the 20th century, the
                                official vital records of Quebec so with the Drouin films, it is
                                possible to trace one's Fre-Can ancestors back to the beginning of
                                New France and the first ancestors to come over from France in the
                                1600's. I have often times wished that there existed something
                                similar for Itri and Italy.
                                >
                                > "Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based
                                on objections,. ..." familysearch. org, where one would find member
                                supplied information thus indicating that someone descended from
                                that person or persons had become a Mormon and submitted their
                                ancestors, is free. what the jewish people were objecting to where
                                the member supplied information and registration of Jewish ancestors
                                as Mormons. Just as you won't find too many Catholic ancestors in
                                the Mormon database, you won't find many Jewish ancestors.
                                >
                                > Look around and you can probably find the program "The Mormons" on
                                a PBS DVD or maybe even your local library might have it in their
                                collection. It takes a lot of the mystery out of the Mormon faith
                                which so many of us rely on for our research materials but know so
                                little about. This is from the PBS Store http://www.shoppbs. org/ -
                                The Mormons Single DVD Item No. MORM601 - Description: The Church
                                of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is one of America's fastest
                                growing religions, and its influence circles the globe. Yet the
                                birth of Mormonism and its history is one of America's great
                                neglected narratives. This four-hour documentary brings together
                                FRONTLINE and AMERICAN EXPERIENCE in their first co-production to
                                provide a searching portrait of this fascinating but often
                                misunderstood religion.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Ancestry databases are records, periodicals, rare books, family
                                genealogies, directories, maps, etc most of which would be otherwise
                                inaccessible to most people by virtue of geographic separation from
                                where the ancestors lived and the time constraints of trying to get
                                in where the materials are during the hours a repository is open.
                                For example, what Ancestry has are numerous databases such as the
                                Drouin, US, English and Canadian censuses, digitized forms of
                                publications such as the rare early 5 volume 20th century
                                publication "Staten Island and Its People : A History, 1609-1929" or
                                Arnold's "Vital Record of Rhode Island, 1636-1850, First Series,
                                Births, Marriages and Deaths : a Family Register for the People".
                                >
                                > An Ancestry subscription can it's place in one's research. As
                                much as I love the American French Genealogical Society up in
                                Woonsocket, it's having the Drouin available to me 24/7 through my
                                Ancestry subscription that has gotten me where I am with the Fre-Can
                                ancestors. Ancestry can't replace the AFGS but it certainly has
                                gotten me light years ahead in that line of research now that I
                                don't have to wait to get time to get into the AFGS when they're
                                open and when I do get in, I can make better use of the trip
                                expanding upon what are know known and confirmed ancestors.
                                >
                                > As far as what "Vault" means, I'm still trying to find that out
                                without bringing attention to the Itri films at my FHC that are now
                                listed as "Vault" on the familysearch. org web site. I was pleased
                                to see when I did my earlier reply that films that had been "Vault"
                                on the weekend had changed in designation but still none to happy to
                                see that nearly all the Processetti are now "Vault". However, it's
                                a whole lot easier to live without access to the Processetti than
                                without the BMD films.
                                >
                                > Linda
                                >
                                >
                                > marie saccoccio <saccocciom@ ...> wrote:
                                > Linda, I find this fascinating and distrubing as I really did
                                not know about the posthumous baptisms. I am sure the Vatican would
                                not approve of this. Also, when you say the films for Itri are now
                                in the VAULT, do you mean they are no longer available for the
                                online database that one pays for??
                                >
                                > Don't kid yourself, the Mormons have grown very rich off their
                                database. I am sure that finances so many of their endeavors. I
                                would love to see the financials on ancestry.com. Let me see if I
                                can find anything on that subject.
                                >
                                > Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based
                                on objections, since they make so much money off it. Exclsion of
                                every group that objects would dent into their profit margin.
                                >
                                > Marie
                                >
                                > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ ...> wrote:
                                > Why indeed? If I were urber-suspicious, I'd think that it
                                had something to do with the PBS running of the program on the
                                Mormons and the Italian government objecting to the films being out
                                there since the information in them is used by Mormons to have their
                                ancestors posthumously baptized into the Mormon faith. Somehow,
                                though, I think it just a mundane coincidence that PBS stations
                                around here ran the Mormon program at least 4 times a couple of
                                weeks back that I remember.
                                >
                                > That's not to say that there haven't been some groups that have
                                objected to having their people recorded for posterity as Mormons.
                                People of the Jewish faith took great exception to having their
                                ancestors listed as "Mormon" and those people have been removed from
                                the Mormon registers. Now, only if a former member of the Jewish
                                faith submits their own personal ancestors, does a Jewish ancestor
                                get baptized a Mormon. When I saw that segment in the program I
                                thought the speaker's attitude a bit pompus. after all, those
                                ancestors might be that Mormon member's ancestors BUT they are also
                                the ancestors of other people who are of the Jewish faith and might
                                object just as deeply to having their ancestors' faith changed and
                                having someone 100 years from now think that these folks were always
                                Mormon.
                                >
                                > I cringe every time the whole thing about the posthumous baptism
                                gets widespread mention such as on the PBS program because I'm
                                afraid that if too many people or religious groups got their backs
                                ups and started complaining and demanding that their ancestors be
                                struck from the registers of Mormons as was done with those of the
                                Jewish faith, that the access to all the materials that we now enjoy
                                will be denied those who are not Mormon. My whole take on the thing
                                is that if someone died a Lutheran, Catholic, Buddhist, Shinto,
                                Episcopalian, Methodist or whatever and had considered themselves in
                                life and had practiced that faith in their lifetime, then someone
                                coming along 100 years later and baptizing them without their
                                knowledge or consent really doesn't change a thing of what happened
                                in the past and is pointless but if it puts someone else at ease
                                within their chosen religion, I can't see much harm in it.
                                >
                                >
                                > But I do see a great deal of harm to people's research if access
                                to the information in the films is denied. I wonder if it's just
                                the films on Itri or all the Italian films?
                                >
                                > Linda
                                >
                                >
                                > marie saccoccio <saccocciom@ ...> wrote:
                                > I did some searching and there is a vault outside of Salt Lake
                                City where these are kept. It actually is a whole in the side of a
                                mountain to protect them. Looks kind of space age!!! When you go
                                to Salt Lake City you can view them but you have to order them
                                before hand. It says that some are chosen for safekeeping. I bet
                                there is more to this than meets the eye!! Why Itri of all
                                places??
                                >
                                > Marie
                                >
                                > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ ...> wrote:
                                > I think so...I went in one day when Verna was pulling films
                                and I asked her about what she was doing and she showed me a list
                                that had come from Salt Lake that our director wanted the volunteers
                                to pull. U know what a stickler he seems to be. I'm afraid to ask
                                and bring attention to the films...I wish there were some way we
                                could spirit them out of there and have bootlegs made...I'd
                                definitely want to share the cost especially if the alternative is
                                having all that information locked away where we can't see it any
                                more.
                                >
                                > Linda
                                >
                                > Jason Soscia <jsoscia3@.. .> wrote: Can they really recall
                                them back to Salt Lake? I paid for most of those Itri films to be
                                kept there indefinitely.
                                >
                                > miyukichan0987 <miyukichan0987@ ...> wrote:
                                > I noticed while composing a response to our newest member,
                                Martine,
                                > that quite a few of the films for Itri now say "VAULT INTL Film"
                                > rather than "FHL INTL Film'.
                                >
                                > I do know that under certain circumstances, films that were
                                previously
                                > available to research, suddenly become restricted for reasons no
                                one
                                > aka the volunteers at my FHC has been able to tell me because they
                                > don't know either. They just get notices from Salt Lake telling
                                them
                                > to pull the films and return them to the FHL.
                                >
                                > If these films that are now "Vault" are to be restricted it would
                                be a
                                > major blow to all of us trying to research our ancestors in Itri!
                                It
                                > has been frustrating enough for me that I can only research the
                                period
                                > between 1809 -1865 but now to lose a major portion of the films of
                                > that period would be an insurmountable research tragedy!
                                >
                                > 15 of the 26 films of records for Itri are now designated "Vault".
                                I
                                > called my FHC to see if that means the records are no longer
                                available
                                > but the volunteer did not know what "Vault" meant with respect to
                                > films already on loan. So far, the Itrani films at the Warwick, RI
                                > FHC that are on "Indefinite" loan and which constitute nearly a
                                > complete set of all the 26 films available, all seem to still be
                                there.
                                >
                                > However, since I don't know if they will at some point in the near
                                > future be ordered pulled from the files and sent back to Salt Lake,
                                > I'm going to start living at the FHC because I am far from done
                                with
                                > searching through those films.
                                >
                                > Can anyone tell the rest of us if "Vault" means that we are about
                                to
                                > lose access to over 50% of the available films on Itri or not??
                                >
                                > Linda
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
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