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Re: [FraDiavolo] Re: Itri - Marseilles Connection?

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  • Rick J
    Speculation on the splitting up of families: The immigration quota theory seems to make sense, but I have also read that the Italian gov t really didn t resist
    Message 1 of 19 , Jun 29, 2007
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      Speculation on the splitting up of families:
       
      The immigration quota theory seems to make sense, but I have also read that the Italian gov't really didn't resist emigration. They had an over-population problem anyway, and the repatriation of money from immigrants living abroad back to Italy in the early 1900s actually equaled about 5-10% of total Italian GDP in that period. Of course, emigration restrictions could have been enforced selectively, and that would make sense for southern Italy where the emigration was greatest and the situation the most chaotic.
       
      As I mentioned in my previous post, many families were the equivalent of sharecroppers.They both lived and worked on land owned by landlords. Perhaps the wives and children needed to be settled in their new locations while the men needed to go back to fulfill crop or other commitments to their landlords before departing themselves.
       
      Another possibility is potential military commitments. I don't know what the laws were in Italy back then, but probably since the beginning of time males had been conscripted for military service. As everyone knows, Europe was home to chronic warfare for virtually its entire history, and that era was no exception. Maybe some military draft law prevented men from leaving as easily as women and children.
       
      Rick


      Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@...> wrote:
      Rick,

      I think you might have been refering to my post when you started this thread.  I, too, was puzzled as to why a poor family, and lets face it, our Itrani ancestors were way on the opposite end of the wealth spectum from the likes of Vanderbuilts and Astors, would go to the expense of sending part of the family to Marseilles and paying for them to live there for awhile before rejoining each other and continuing on to America.

      Initially, given that my Grandmother gave birth to my Aunt Caroline in Marseilles, I had though that perhaps complications with the pregancy had led to her and my toddler Aunt Angelina getting off a boat and staying in France while my Grandfather went back to Itri to earn additional funds.  I've been poking around trying to answer my original question since.

      Now, I don't know for certain if this is the correct answer, but it does seem to make sense.  I was told by an Italian instructor at some informal evening classes I've attended that after the reunifcation which, economically,  was great for the North but not so for the South, there was a large migration of population from the agriculturally based South to primarily the US.  I think we would all agree to that being accurate. 

      But, the Italian government, not liking the loss of population, imposed a quota on the number of people who could leave which was what percipitated the family splits with some members of the family making the temporary stop over in Marseilles that so many of us have observed.

      I haven't been able to find out much more than that so far but it did seem that there was an Italian district in Marseilles which would be consistant with the whole migration by stages to beat the quota theory.  Maybe someone else with a better nose for history than I will be able to turn up some definative information on a quota and/or the history of the city of Marseilles in the late 19th early - 20th cent.

      Linda

      rickj100001 <rickj100001@ yahoo.com> wrote:
      Great points - all of them. Maybe I am reading too much into all of
      this.

      But my great-grandmother had 2 children after moving to Marseilles
      from Itri, so she wasn't there just to catch the boat.

      So it still makes me wonder why this happened at this particular
      time and why so many families moved at the same time. It just seems
      unusual because it had not happened previously to the extent that it
      happended then.

      Just another needle in a haystack of needles.

      --- In FraDiavolo@yahoogro ups.com, marie saccoccio <saccocciom@ ...>
      wrote:
      >
      > 1) Poverty and the myth that America's streets were paved with
      gold. Perhaps the unification of Italy was also a precipitating
      factor though. Hard to ignore that.
      >
      > 2) Far fewer French were immigrating so I assume not much of a
      wait list. Also, some of the immigrants actually worked on the
      ships so essentially got a free passage. Perhaps that was easier to
      get from Marseille.
      >
      > 3) Such a demand from Naples since that location was the closest
      for Southern Italians. Genoa was also an important port of
      departure, as was Palermo. But I have seen reported that Marseille
      was the 3rd busiest of the bunch for immigration. Naples, the
      first.
      >
      >
      > rickj100001 <rickj100001@ ...> wrote:
      > Marie,
      >
      > I wonder if the reason fewer people were sailing from Marseilles
      > than Naples isn't part of the answer.
      >
      > It just seems to me that such a protracted separation between
      > husbands and wives and children must have been driven by something
      > more profound than easy access to boats to America. Jason made the
      > point that maybe it had to do with the availability of jobs.
      >
      > Maybe these really are the real explanations, but it still makes
      me
      > wonder:
      >
      > 1) Why was it so important to leave Italy at this particular point
      > in time that families would separate and immigrate to a foreign
      > country (France, eventually USA)?
      >
      > 2) Why was it so much easier to get a boat to America from Havre
      > than from Naples at the time? Why so much demand to leave from
      > Naples?
      >
      > I don't know the answers. I do know that Italy only became a
      united
      > republic in 1871. I know that the largest thrust of Italian
      > immigration to the USA began about 1880.
      >
      > Based on this, I can only suspect that some kind of political
      > upheaval was at the root of the Itri-Marseilles migration. Of
      > course, this is all my own speculation.
      >
      > I will continue to research, and I'd love to hear other opinions
      > about this.
      >
      > Rick
      >
      > --- In FraDiavolo@yahoogro ups.com, marie saccoccio <saccocciom@ >
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > I also saw this in my research. I assumed it had to do with it
      > being easier to get a boat from Marseille to NY, than Naples to
      NY.
      > Far fewer people were sailing from Marseille.
      > >
      > > rickj100001 <rickj100001@ > wrote: I read in another
      > thread where someone had questions as to why one of
      > > his female ancestors left Itri for Marseilles, France, while the
      > > female ancestor's husband remained behind in Itri. Apparently,
      > this
      > > occurred in at least a few Itri families.
      > >
      > > This same phenomemon occurred in the Iacueo family when my great
      > > grandmother and her children left Itri for Marseilles in the
      late
      > > 1800s/early 1900s. They eventually immigrated to the USA from
      > > Marseilles to New York in 1908.
      > >
      > > Does anyone have any information regarding the reason all of
      these
      > > families moved from Itri to Marseilles? It's a great mystery to
      me.
      > >
      > > Rick
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Marie Elena Saccoccio
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------ --------- --------- ---
      > > Need Mail bonding?
      > > Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers
      users.
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Marie Elena Saccoccio
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------ --------- --------- ---
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    • gcpezza@aol.com
      Hi everyone, I talked to my father today. Many Itrani s went to France for work. Marseilles the main area where they worked the ports. Also Mentz in Northern
      Message 2 of 19 , Jun 30, 2007
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        Hi everyone,
         
        I talked to my father today. Many Itrani's went to France for work. Marseilles the main area where they worked the ports. Also Mentz in Northern France was another area where Itrani's went. They went to work the coal mines.
         
        Greg Pezza




        See what's free at AOL.com.
      • marie saccoccio
        Now here is a very different account, but much earlier; however, I could only access this one page on the web: gcpezza@aol.com wrote: Hi everyone, I talked to
        Message 3 of 19 , Jun 30, 2007
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          Now here is a very different account, but much earlier; however, I could only access this one page on the web:
           
          First page of requested article:


          gcpezza@... wrote:
          Hi everyone,
           
          I talked to my father today. Many Itrani's went to France for work. Marseilles the main area where they worked the ports. Also Mentz in Northern France was another area where Itrani's went. They went to work the coal mines.
           
          Greg Pezza




          See what's free at AOL.com.



          Marie Elena Saccoccio


          Building a website is a piece of cake.
          Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online.

        • marie saccoccio
          I have also read on rootsweb one member describing her ancestor from Itri (female) who started out from Itri and landed in Marseille and then that same ship
          Message 4 of 19 , Jun 30, 2007
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            I have also read on rootsweb one member describing her ancestor from Itri (female) who started out from Itri and landed in Marseille and then that same ship went on to NYC.  this could be about money.  I know many Irish immigrants ended up in Canada originally and then came down to Boston.  It was about money for passage.  It could be that they had enough money for part of the trip but not the whole trip to USA at that moment.
            gcpezza@... wrote:
            Hi everyone,
             
            I talked to my father today. Many Itrani's went to France for work. Marseilles the main area where they worked the ports. Also Mentz in Northern France was another area where Itrani's went. They went to work the coal mines.
             
            Greg Pezza




            See what's free at AOL.com.



            Marie Elena Saccoccio


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          • Domenic Livoli
            Hello, I asked my mother last night and she also did say that the Itrani people went to Marseilles to work the coal mines. They also went to Germany and
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 1 6:33 AM
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              Hello,

               

              I asked my mother last night and she also did say that the Itrani people went to Marseilles to work the coal mines.  They also went to Germany and Australia.  It was all about work.  Anywhere they could, doing anything that would make money to survive.  There was no work in Itri at the time.  Maybe there was some connection to someone that knew they could find work there.  Some went back, some never did.  She said that someone said, “This is your family now.” meaning that you had to leave Itri behind and start a new life. 

               

              Domenic Livoli

               

               

               

              -----Original Message-----
              From:
              FraDiavolo@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FraDiavolo@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of gcpezza@...
              Sent:
              Saturday, June 30, 2007 8:39 PM
              To:
              FraDiavolo@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [FraDiavolo] Re: Itri -
              Marseilles Connection?

               

              Hi everyone,

               

              I talked to my father today. Many Itrani's went to France for work. Marseilles the main area where they worked the ports. Also Mentz in Northern France was another area where Itrani's went. They went to work the coal mines.

               

              Greg Pezza




              See what's free at AOL.com.

            • rickj100001
              So many great responses to this topic. All of your observations have been a great help to me personally (and hopefully to the group as a whole), and I want to
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 1 9:01 PM
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                So many great responses to this topic.

                All of your observations have been a great help to me personally
                (and hopefully to the group as a whole), and I want to say thanks. I
                feel that I know a lot more today than I did even a few days ago.

                More than anything though, Domenic's quote from his mother
                that "this is your family now" probably holds more poignency than
                anything else I've seen. These families were strong in a way that
                I'm still trying to comprehend.

                Rick

                --- In FraDiavolo@yahoogroups.com, "Domenic Livoli" <dlivoli@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > Hello,
                >
                >
                >
                > I asked my mother last night and she also did say that the Itrani
                people
                > went to Marseilles to work the coal mines. They also went to
                Germany and
                > Australia. It was all about work. Anywhere they could, doing
                anything that
                > would make money to survive. There was no work in Itri at the
                time. Maybe
                > there was some connection to someone that knew they could find
                work there.
                > Some went back, some never did. She said that someone said, "This
                is your
                > family now." meaning that you had to leave Itri behind and start a
                new life.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Domenic Livoli
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: FraDiavolo@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:FraDiavolo@yahoogroups.com] On
                > Behalf Of gcpezza@...
                > Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2007 8:39 PM
                > To: FraDiavolo@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [FraDiavolo] Re: Itri - Marseilles Connection?
                >
                >
                >
                > Hi everyone,
                >
                >
                >
                > I talked to my father today. Many Itrani's went to France for work.
                > Marseilles the main area where they worked the ports. Also Mentz
                in Northern
                > France was another area where Itrani's went. They went to work the
                coal
                > mines.
                >
                >
                >
                > Greg Pezza
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > _____
                >
                > See what's free at AOL.com <http://www.aol.com?
                ncid=AOLAOF00020000000503> .
                >
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