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388Re: [FraDiavolo] Re: Itrani Films - VAULT ALERT!!!!!

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  • Linda Peloquin
    Mar 19, 2008
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      Rick,

      That's encouraging.  I have a couple of the early processetti films that are now "VAULT" on indefinite and I'd hate for them to be sent back as I have been able to push just a speck farther back using the records contained in them.

      The way I had read the definition of the VAULT films on the familysearch.org it sounded like the films would only be available via a trip to Salt Lake and that one would have to reserve the films ahead.

      I had wanted to get into my FHC this weekend and check on the films that are presently there that are now catagorized "VAULT" but had no time.   Hopefully I can get in this week.

      I wonder if Jason has had a chance to go there yet to check.

      Linda

      rickj100001 <rickj100001@...> wrote:
      Linda,

      After reading these posts regarding the "VAULT" v. "FHL" categories
      on the family search website, I also became a little alarmed. I
      don't know why certain films are categorized the way they are, and I
      doubt that the volunteers at my local FHC would know either.

      But I have a printout of the FHL Catalog for Itri that I generated
      on 7/1/07. The printout shows almost all of the Processetti films
      (save for the two earliest), two Nati films (1824-1831 and 1832-
      1839) and two Morti films (ag. 1827 - magg. 1846 and 1857-1861)
      listed as "VAULT INTL."

      Since the date of that printout, I have ordered and viewed all of
      the Nati and Morti films (including those listed as VAULT INTL)
      without any problem, and none were pulled from the files prior to my
      consent (currently I have two Processetti films listed as VAULT on
      indefinite loan without any problems).

      So whatever the reasons for the categorizing of these films, it does
      not mean that they are unavailable outside of Salt Lake City. Again,
      I don't know what it means, but I haven't had a problem ordering
      films categorized as VAULT.

      Hope this puts everyone a little more at ease.

      Rick

      --- In FraDiavolo@yahoogro ups.com, marie saccoccio <saccocciom@ ...>
      wrote:
      >
      > LOL My recollection of it was that it was rather boring but
      informative. I should pay more attention next time.
      >
      > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ ...> wrote: Marie,
      >
      > It was run several times just a couple of weeks ago...guess you
      missed it. Both WGBH, Boston and WSBE, RI ran it a couple of times
      each. On those days they ran it during normal evening hours & then
      repeated it during the red eye hours. I know 'cause I zonked trying
      to stay awake watching it, woke up and it was still on so I finished
      watching the program thinking I'd only missed a few minutes. Only
      later did I realize that when I had woken-up , what I woke-up during
      was the second showing of the night during the red eye hours. I was
      mightily disoriented that night after my two installment sleep
      delayed viewing of the show and needed a caffeine IV the next day!!!
      >
      > Linda
      >
      > marie saccoccio <saccocciom@ ...> wrote:
      > LInda, I see that there has been a dispute between Ancestry
      and "the Mormons." I now have no idea who really owns Ancestry.
      Perhaps SEC filings would share some light on this. I am curious.
      >
      > I sort of watched the PBS special on Mormons when it was on TV
      in Boston. Mitt Romney was our governor, then presidential
      candidate so it was good to see. I would like to watch it again
      though as I missed some parts.
      >
      > Marie
      >
      >
      >
      > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ ...> wrote:
      > Marie,
      >
      > "I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this." I don't think
      there's a problem there because of all the Catholic names I've run
      on familysearch. org, the only time any of them have come up has been
      in connection with an IGI (International Genealogical Index) take
      directly from primary source records. Although I'm sure it happens
      that people who were Catholic have converted to the Mormon faith and
      there are Catholic ancestors who are also now Mormons, apparently
      none of them share ancestors with me or my husband. The returns on
      the results page would say "member supplied" somewhere on the
      individual page for the person. I just don't think Catholics have
      flocked to the Mormon religion in the numbers that other faiths
      have.
      >
      > For example, if you run my great-grandfather, Luigi Cannella, this
      is what you get for a result: LUIGI CANNELLA - International
      Genealogical Index / SE
      > Gender: Male Marriage: 08 SEP 1849 Itri, Latina, Italy.
      >
      > When you click on his name the page you get tells you basically
      the same thing but because it is for a marriage so you also get:
      Spouse: MARIA LORETA CARDI Marriage: 08 SEP 1849 Itri,
      Latina, Italy
      >
      > And at the bottom, the source of this information which is one of
      the Itri films of primary source records: Batch No.: M840603
      Dates: 1840 - 1861 Source Call No.: 1173755 Type: Film; which
      is this film -> Matrimoni ag. 1840-1861 FHL INTL Film 1173755.
      >
      > As far as I'm concerned, if someone was born Catholic, lived life
      as a Catholic and died in the Catholic faith or any other faith for
      that matter, something someone does many decades farther down the
      road isn't going to change that fact that they were Catholics. It's
      after the fact and it's not going to change a single thing that has
      transpired in the past. I look at it rather like having dual
      citizenship or two passports... one for the US and one for Italy for
      those folks who qualify.
      >
      > " no longer available for the on line database that one pays
      for??" I guess you're talking about the Generations Network sites
      here? I had asked one of the volunteers at my FHC whom I knew was
      a Mormon if the Mormon's owned what Ancestry and it's sister sites'
      parent company was then known as "My Family.com" and was told "No"
      and that the FHC's had to pay for their access to Ancestry which she
      thought was unfair given that most of the content on Ancestry &
      company was materials that the Mormons had given them access to.
      >
      > At any rate, none of the Itri material has ever been available
      through the pay sites of Ancestry or Genealogy. I wish it were
      since it would be much more convenient. I've gotten tons more
      research done on Hubby's French Canadian ancestors now that Ancestry
      has the Drouin* Collection on line. *The Drouin Institute of
      Montréal when out in the 1930-1940's and filmed every repertoire
      aka parish register that was in existence at the time for the whole
      of Quebec. The repertoire were, up into the 20th century, the
      official vital records of Quebec so with the Drouin films, it is
      possible to trace one's Fre-Can ancestors back to the beginning of
      New France and the first ancestors to come over from France in the
      1600's. I have often times wished that there existed something
      similar for Itri and Italy.
      >
      > "Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based
      on objections,. ..." familysearch. org, where one would find member
      supplied information thus indicating that someone descended from
      that person or persons had become a Mormon and submitted their
      ancestors, is free. what the jewish people were objecting to where
      the member supplied information and registration of Jewish ancestors
      as Mormons. Just as you won't find too many Catholic ancestors in
      the Mormon database, you won't find many Jewish ancestors.
      >
      > Look around and you can probably find the program "The Mormons" on
      a PBS DVD or maybe even your local library might have it in their
      collection. It takes a lot of the mystery out of the Mormon faith
      which so many of us rely on for our research materials but know so
      little about. This is from the PBS Store http://www.shoppbs. org/ -
      The Mormons Single DVD Item No. MORM601 - Description: The Church
      of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is one of America's fastest
      growing religions, and its influence circles the globe. Yet the
      birth of Mormonism and its history is one of America's great
      neglected narratives. This four-hour documentary brings together
      FRONTLINE and AMERICAN EXPERIENCE in their first co-production to
      provide a searching portrait of this fascinating but often
      misunderstood religion.
      >
      >
      >
      > Ancestry databases are records, periodicals, rare books, family
      genealogies, directories, maps, etc most of which would be otherwise
      inaccessible to most people by virtue of geographic separation from
      where the ancestors lived and the time constraints of trying to get
      in where the materials are during the hours a repository is open.
      For example, what Ancestry has are numerous databases such as the
      Drouin, US, English and Canadian censuses, digitized forms of
      publications such as the rare early 5 volume 20th century
      publication "Staten Island and Its People : A History, 1609-1929" or
      Arnold's "Vital Record of Rhode Island, 1636-1850, First Series,
      Births, Marriages and Deaths : a Family Register for the People".
      >
      > An Ancestry subscription can it's place in one's research. As
      much as I love the American French Genealogical Society up in
      Woonsocket, it's having the Drouin available to me 24/7 through my
      Ancestry subscription that has gotten me where I am with the Fre-Can
      ancestors. Ancestry can't replace the AFGS but it certainly has
      gotten me light years ahead in that line of research now that I
      don't have to wait to get time to get into the AFGS when they're
      open and when I do get in, I can make better use of the trip
      expanding upon what are know known and confirmed ancestors.
      >
      > As far as what "Vault" means, I'm still trying to find that out
      without bringing attention to the Itri films at my FHC that are now
      listed as "Vault" on the familysearch. org web site. I was pleased
      to see when I did my earlier reply that films that had been "Vault"
      on the weekend had changed in designation but still none to happy to
      see that nearly all the Processetti are now "Vault". However, it's
      a whole lot easier to live without access to the Processetti than
      without the BMD films.
      >
      > Linda
      >
      >
      > marie saccoccio <saccocciom@ ...> wrote:
      > Linda, I find this fascinating and distrubing as I really did
      not know about the posthumous baptisms. I am sure the Vatican would
      not approve of this. Also, when you say the films for Itri are now
      in the VAULT, do you mean they are no longer available for the
      online database that one pays for??
      >
      > Don't kid yourself, the Mormons have grown very rich off their
      database. I am sure that finances so many of their endeavors. I
      would love to see the financials on ancestry.com. Let me see if I
      can find anything on that subject.
      >
      > Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based
      on objections, since they make so much money off it. Exclsion of
      every group that objects would dent into their profit margin.
      >
      > Marie
      >
      > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ ...> wrote:
      > Why indeed? If I were urber-suspicious, I'd think that it
      had something to do with the PBS running of the program on the
      Mormons and the Italian government objecting to the films being out
      there since the information in them is used by Mormons to have their
      ancestors posthumously baptized into the Mormon faith. Somehow,
      though, I think it just a mundane coincidence that PBS stations
      around here ran the Mormon program at least 4 times a couple of
      weeks back that I remember.
      >
      > That's not to say that there haven't been some groups that have
      objected to having their people recorded for posterity as Mormons.
      People of the Jewish faith took great exception to having their
      ancestors listed as "Mormon" and those people have been removed from
      the Mormon registers. Now, only if a former member of the Jewish
      faith submits their own personal ancestors, does a Jewish ancestor
      get baptized a Mormon. When I saw that segment in the program I
      thought the speaker's attitude a bit pompus. after all, those
      ancestors might be that Mormon member's ancestors BUT they are also
      the ancestors of other people who are of the Jewish faith and might
      object just as deeply to having their ancestors' faith changed and
      having someone 100 years from now think that these folks were always
      Mormon.
      >
      > I cringe every time the whole thing about the posthumous baptism
      gets widespread mention such as on the PBS program because I'm
      afraid that if too many people or religious groups got their backs
      ups and started complaining and demanding that their ancestors be
      struck from the registers of Mormons as was done with those of the
      Jewish faith, that the access to all the materials that we now enjoy
      will be denied those who are not Mormon. My whole take on the thing
      is that if someone died a Lutheran, Catholic, Buddhist, Shinto,
      Episcopalian, Methodist or whatever and had considered themselves in
      life and had practiced that faith in their lifetime, then someone
      coming along 100 years later and baptizing them without their
      knowledge or consent really doesn't change a thing of what happened
      in the past and is pointless but if it puts someone else at ease
      within their chosen religion, I can't see much harm in it.
      >
      >
      > But I do see a great deal of harm to people's research if access
      to the information in the films is denied. I wonder if it's just
      the films on Itri or all the Italian films?
      >
      > Linda
      >
      >
      > marie saccoccio <saccocciom@ ...> wrote:
      > I did some searching and there is a vault outside of Salt Lake
      City where these are kept. It actually is a whole in the side of a
      mountain to protect them. Looks kind of space age!!! When you go
      to Salt Lake City you can view them but you have to order them
      before hand. It says that some are chosen for safekeeping. I bet
      there is more to this than meets the eye!! Why Itri of all
      places??
      >
      > Marie
      >
      > Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ ...> wrote:
      > I think so...I went in one day when Verna was pulling films
      and I asked her about what she was doing and she showed me a list
      that had come from Salt Lake that our director wanted the volunteers
      to pull. U know what a stickler he seems to be. I'm afraid to ask
      and bring attention to the films...I wish there were some way we
      could spirit them out of there and have bootlegs made...I'd
      definitely want to share the cost especially if the alternative is
      having all that information locked away where we can't see it any
      more.
      >
      > Linda
      >
      > Jason Soscia <jsoscia3@.. .> wrote: Can they really recall
      them back to Salt Lake? I paid for most of those Itri films to be
      kept there indefinitely.
      >
      > miyukichan0987 <miyukichan0987@ ...> wrote:
      > I noticed while composing a response to our newest member,
      Martine,
      > that quite a few of the films for Itri now say "VAULT INTL Film"
      > rather than "FHL INTL Film'.
      >
      > I do know that under certain circumstances, films that were
      previously
      > available to research, suddenly become restricted for reasons no
      one
      > aka the volunteers at my FHC has been able to tell me because they
      > don't know either. They just get notices from Salt Lake telling
      them
      > to pull the films and return them to the FHL.
      >
      > If these films that are now "Vault" are to be restricted it would
      be a
      > major blow to all of us trying to research our ancestors in Itri!
      It
      > has been frustrating enough for me that I can only research the
      period
      > between 1809 -1865 but now to lose a major portion of the films of
      > that period would be an insurmountable research tragedy!
      >
      > 15 of the 26 films of records for Itri are now designated "Vault".
      I
      > called my FHC to see if that means the records are no longer
      available
      > but the volunteer did not know what "Vault" meant with respect to
      > films already on loan. So far, the Itrani films at the Warwick, RI
      > FHC that are on "Indefinite" loan and which constitute nearly a
      > complete set of all the 26 films available, all seem to still be
      there.
      >
      > However, since I don't know if they will at some point in the near
      > future be ordered pulled from the files and sent back to Salt Lake,
      > I'm going to start living at the FHC because I am far from done
      with
      > searching through those films.
      >
      > Can anyone tell the rest of us if "Vault" means that we are about
      to
      > lose access to over 50% of the available films on Itri or not??
      >
      > Linda
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      > Marie Elena Saccoccio
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      > Marie Elena Saccoccio
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      > Marie Elena Saccoccio
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