377Re: [FraDiavolo] Itrani Films - VAULT ALERT!!!!!
- Mar 11, 2008Marie,
"I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this." I don't think there's a problem there because of all the Catholic names I've run on familysearch.org, the only time any of them have come up has been in connection with an IGI (International Genealogical Index) take directly from primary source records. Although I'm sure it happens that people who were Catholic have converted to the Mormon faith and there are Catholic ancestors who are also now Mormons, apparently none of them share ancestors with me or my husband. The returns on the results page would say "member supplied" somewhere on the individual page for the person. I just don't think Catholics have flocked to the Mormon religion in the numbers that other faiths have.
For example, if you run my great-grandfather, Luigi Cannella, this is what you get for a result: LUIGI CANNELLA - International Genealogical Index / SE
Gender: Male Marriage: 08 SEP 1849 Itri, Latina, Italy.
When you click on his name the page you get tells you basically the same thing but because it is for a marriage so you also get: Spouse: MARIA LORETA CARDI Marriage: 08 SEP 1849 Itri, Latina, Italy
And at the bottom, the source of this information which is one of the Itri films of primary source records: Batch No.: M840603 Dates: 1840 - 1861 Source Call No.: 1173755 Type: Film; which is this film -> Matrimoni ag. 1840-1861 FHL INTL Film 1173755.
As far as I'm concerned, if someone was born Catholic, lived life as a Catholic and died in the Catholic faith or any other faith for that matter, something someone does many decades farther down the road isn't going to change that fact that they were Catholics. It's after the fact and it's not going to change a single thing that has transpired in the past. I look at it rather like having dual citizenship or two passports...one for the US and one for Italy for those folks who qualify.
" no longer available for the on line database that one pays for??" I guess you're talking about the Generations Network sites here? I had asked one of the volunteers at my FHC whom I knew was a Mormon if the Mormon's owned what Ancestry and it's sister sites' parent company was then known as "My Family.com" and was told "No" and that the FHC's had to pay for their access to Ancestry which she thought was unfair given that most of the content on Ancestry & company was materials that the Mormons had given them access to.
At any rate, none of the Itri material has ever been available through the pay sites of Ancestry or Genealogy. I wish it were since it would be much more convenient. I've gotten tons more research done on Hubby's French Canadian ancestors now that Ancestry has the Drouin* Collection on line. *The Drouin Institute of MontrÃ©al when out in the 1930-1940's and filmed every repertoire aka parish register that was in existence at the time for the whole of Quebec. The repertoire were, up into the 20th century, the official vital records of Quebec so with the Drouin films, it is possible to trace one's Fre-Can ancestors back to the beginning of New France and the first ancestors to come over from France in the 1600's. I have often times wished that there existed something similar for Itri and Italy.
"Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based on objections,...." familysearch.org, where one would find member supplied information thus indicating that someone descended from that person or persons had become a Mormon and submitted their ancestors, is free. what the jewish people were objecting to where the member supplied information and registration of Jewish ancestors as Mormons. Just as you won't find too many Catholic ancestors in the Mormon database, you won't find many Jewish ancestors.
Look around and you can probably find the program "The Mormons" on a PBS DVD or maybe even your local library might have it in their collection. It takes a lot of the mystery out of the Mormon faith which so many of us rely on for our research materials but know so little about. This is from the PBS Store http://www.shoppbs.org/ - The Mormons Single DVD Item No. MORM601 - Description:The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is one of America's fastest growing religions, and its influence circles the globe. Yet the birth of Mormonism and its history is one of America's great neglected narratives. This four-hour documentary brings together FRONTLINE and AMERICAN EXPERIENCE in their first co-production to provide a searching portrait of this fascinating but often misunderstood religion.
Ancestry databases are records, periodicals, rare books, family genealogies, directories, maps, etc most of which would be otherwise inaccessible to most people by virtue of geographic separation from where the ancestors lived and the time constraints of trying to get in where the materials are during the hours a repository is open. For example, what Ancestry has are numerous databases such as the Drouin, US, English and Canadian censuses, digitized forms of publications such as the rare early 5 volume 20th century publication "Staten Island and Its People : A History, 1609-1929" or Arnold's "Vital Record of Rhode Island, 1636-1850, First Series, Births, Marriages and Deaths : a Family Register for the People".
An Ancestry subscription can it's place in one's research. As much as I love the American French Genealogical Society up in Woonsocket, it's having the Drouin available to me 24/7 through my Ancestry subscription that has gotten me where I am with the Fre-Can ancestors. Ancestry can't replace the AFGS but it certainly has gotten me light years ahead in that line of research now that I don't have to wait to get time to get into the AFGS when they're open and when I do get in, I can make better use of the trip expanding upon what are know known and confirmed ancestors.
As far as what "Vault" means, I'm still trying to find that out without bringing attention to the Itri films at my FHC that are now listed as "Vault" on the familysearch.org web site. I was pleased to see when I did my earlier reply that films that had been "Vault" on the weekend had changed in designation but still none to happy to see that nearly all the Processetti are now "Vault". However, it's a whole lot easier to live without access to the Processetti than without the BMD films.
marie saccoccio <saccocciom@...> wrote:Linda, I find this fascinating and distrubing as I really did not know about the posthumous baptisms. I am sure the Vatican would not approve of this. Also, when you say the films for Itri are now in the VAULT, do you mean they are no longer available for the online database that one pays for??Don't kid yourself, the Mormons have grown very rich off their database. I am sure that finances so many of their endeavors. I would love to see the financials on ancestry.com. Let me see if I can find anything on that subject.Also, I cannot imagine the Mormons limiting that database based on objections, since they make so much money off it. Exclsion of every group that objects would dent into their profit margin.Marie
Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:Why indeed? If I were urber-suspicious, I'd think that it had something to do with the PBS running of the program on the Mormons and the Italian government objecting to the films being out there since the information in them is used by Mormons to have their ancestors posthumously baptized into the Mormon faith. Somehow, though, I think it just a mundane coincidence that PBS stations around here ran the Mormon program at least 4 times a couple of weeks back that I remember.
That's not to say that there haven't been some groups that have objected to having their people recorded for posterity as Mormons. People of the Jewish faith took great exception to having their ancestors listed as "Mormon" and those people have been removed from the Mormon registers. Now, only if a former member of the Jewish faith submits their own personal ancestors, does a Jewish ancestor get baptized a Mormon. When I saw that segment in the program I thought the speaker's attitude a bit pompus. after all, those ancestors might be that Mormon member's ancestors BUT they are also the ancestors of other people who are of the Jewish faith and might object just as deeply to having their ancestors' faith changed and having someone 100 years from now think that these folks were always Mormon.
I cringe every time the whole thing about the posthumous baptism gets widespread mention such as on the PBS program because I'm afraid that if too many people or religious groups got their backs ups and started complaining and demanding that their ancestors be struck from the registers of Mormons as was done with those of the Jewish faith, that the access to all the materials that we now enjoy will be denied those who are not Mormon. My whole take on the thing is that if someone died a Lutheran, Catholic, Buddhist, Shinto, Episcopalian, Methodist or whatever and had considered themselves in life and had practiced that faith in their lifetime, then someone coming along 100 years later and baptizing them without their knowledge or consent really doesn't change a thing of what happened in the past and is pointless but if it puts someone else at ease within their chosen religion, I can't see much harm in it.
But I do see a great deal of harm to people's research if access to the information in the films is denied. I wonder if it's just the films on Itri or all the Italian films?
marie saccoccio <saccocciom@yahoo. com> wrote:I did some searching and there is a vault outside of Salt Lake City where these are kept. It actually is a whole in the side of a mountain to protect them. Looks kind of space age!!! When you go to Salt Lake City you can view them but you have to order them before hand. It says that some are chosen for safekeeping. I bet there is more to this than meets the eye!! Why Itri of all places??Marie
Linda Peloquin <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:I think so...I went in one day when Verna was pulling films and I asked her about what she was doing and she showed me a list that had come from Salt Lake that our director wanted the volunteers to pull. U know what a stickler he seems to be. I'm afraid to ask and bring attention to the films...I wish there were some way we could spirit them out of there and have bootlegs made...I'd definitely want to share the cost especially if the alternative is having all that information locked away where we can't see it any more.
Jason Soscia <jsoscia3@yahoo. com> wrote:Can they really recall them back to Salt Lake? I paid for most of those Itri films to be kept there indefinitely.
miyukichan0987 <miyukichan0987@ yahoo.com> wrote:I noticed while composing a response to our newest member, Martine,
that quite a few of the films for Itri now say "VAULT INTL Film"
rather than "FHL INTL Film'.
I do know that under certain circumstances, films that were previously
available to research, suddenly become restricted for reasons no one
aka the volunteers at my FHC has been able to tell me because they
don't know either. They just get notices from Salt Lake telling them
to pull the films and return them to the FHL.
If these films that are now "Vault" are to be restricted it would be a
major blow to all of us trying to research our ancestors in Itri! It
has been frustrating enough for me that I can only research the period
between 1809 -1865 but now to lose a major portion of the films of
that period would be an insurmountable research tragedy!
15 of the 26 films of records for Itri are now designated "Vault". I
called my FHC to see if that means the records are no longer available
but the volunteer did not know what "Vault" meant with respect to
films already on loan. So far, the Itrani films at the Warwick, RI
FHC that are on "Indefinite" loan and which constitute nearly a
complete set of all the 26 films available, all seem to still be there.
However, since I don't know if they will at some point in the near
future be ordered pulled from the files and sent back to Salt Lake,
I'm going to start living at the FHC because I am far from done with
searching through those films.
Can anyone tell the rest of us if "Vault" means that we are about to
lose access to over 50% of the available films on Itri or not??
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