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Re: To Nose Dive or Not

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  • Niel
    Randy, I believe that the 80 s Marblehead you described was called, Yankee . I raced against one up in Framingham, MA several times back then named,
    Message 1 of 10 , Apr 2, 2012
      Randy, I believe that the '80's Marblehead you described was called, "Yankee". I raced against one up in Framingham, MA several times back then named, "Nantucket Sleigh Ride", because of all the spray she would throw up downwind in a breeze. M's are not capable of a true plane but all that spray made it look that way. She was pretty fast in the right conditions. The wide flair you mention also created a sort of tunnel hull effect when she heeled far over and the flared deck engaged the water (purported to keep the narrow bow from digging in on reaches).

      The best examples of flared decks on Footies would be Roger Stollery's designs. His boats are generally heavier than the current crop of designs in the US but are dominant in the UK. Look up the "Ice" and/or download plans for the "Bug" and "Ant".

      Personally I like peaked decks for shedding water in a dive rather than resisting the forces that may eventually overwhelm the flared bow's bouyancy. In addition, a flared bow limits placement in the measurement box. Diagonal placement is out. Roger's boats don't seem to suffer from longitudinal placement so a flared bow might be the way to go. Build up an Ant and see if it works for you.
    • Trevor
      Niel, The apparent dominance of Roger s insect derivatives here in the U.K. can be a bit misleading. The active Footy racing community over here is quite small
      Message 2 of 10 , Apr 3, 2012
        Niel,

        The apparent dominance of Roger's insect derivatives here in the U.K. can be a bit misleading. The active Footy racing community over here is quite small and tends to be split between 2 or 3 clubs based near Roger and a small group in our Midlands area. The big difference between the two groups is that those in the Midlands have come into Footys with little or no previous sailing experience, model or full size, whereas the clubs near Roger are full of committed RC skippers with experience via I0Ms, Marbleheads and the like.

        The Midlands group enjoy quite close racing amongst ourselves using our own designs and own built boats. There is only one of Roger's groups that regularly will travel to our Midlands races and he will win 95% of the time using one of Roger's ICE hulls. Because the ICE is not readily available outside Roger's group a couple of us in the Midlands have built AWKs and Supabugs as a means of comparison. The AWK is probably closest to the ICE in terms of overall configuration - I think Roger drew-up the Supabug as he thought it would be easier to build.

        Although none of the three designs could be called attractive to look at they do have an amazingly fine waterline at the bow which doubtless goes someway to enabling them to go far better than their appearance would suggest. It does however mean that the CLR and CofB are relatively far back which appears to make the hulls susceptible to getting into irons rather more easily than the less skilled amongst us would like. The aircraft carrier-like bow shape does however seem to do its job quite well with the acute flair holding the hull up downwind. It can still be over-pressed and when that happens it will still dive.

        The best of the rest at the moment runs one of Bill Hagerup's Rangers in Depron. This appears to be able to track quite straight with its nose underwater – but he is also a full size dinghy sailor so presumably has some advantageous experience.

        Hull for hull speed difference is not very noticeable between an ICE, AWK or one of my own designs. What sets the ICE hulls apart is their skipper's ability to read and anticipate wind shifts and then to be in the right place at the right time.

        My next hull was going to be a Hagerup variant with an add-on carrier flair, but following your comments I might now alter the plan and incorporate a peaked fore-deck instead. The only down-side to this arrangement would seem to be forcing the sail booms to be higher than usual off the deck.

        Finally, have you seen the I0M World Championship winning BritPop hull. It appears to sport a very descrete little flair at the bow. Close-up photographs are difficult to come by and I've been told there is a 24 month waiting list even if you can afford the 4 figure hull price.

        Cheers,

        firstfooty


        --- In FootyUSA@yahoogroups.com, "Niel" <niel1055@...> wrote:
        >
        > Randy, I believe that the '80's Marblehead you described was called, "Yankee". I raced against one up in Framingham, MA several times back then named, "Nantucket Sleigh Ride", because of all the spray she would throw up downwind in a breeze. M's are not capable of a true plane but all that spray made it look that way. She was pretty fast in the right conditions. The wide flair you mention also created a sort of tunnel hull effect when she heeled far over and the flared deck engaged the water (purported to keep the narrow bow from digging in on reaches).
        >
        > The best examples of flared decks on Footies would be Roger Stollery's designs. His boats are generally heavier than the current crop of designs in the US but are dominant in the UK. Look up the "Ice" and/or download plans for the "Bug" and "Ant".
        >
        > Personally I like peaked decks for shedding water in a dive rather than resisting the forces that may eventually overwhelm the flared bow's bouyancy. In addition, a flared bow limits placement in the measurement box. Diagonal placement is out. Roger's boats don't seem to suffer from longitudinal placement so a flared bow might be the way to go. Build up an Ant and see if it works for you.
        >
      • Niel
        Hi Trevor, Thanks so much for your first hand impressions of Footy racing in the UK and the comparison of the different designs. Some of my designs feature a
        Message 3 of 10 , Apr 5, 2012
          Hi Trevor,

          Thanks so much for your first hand impressions of Footy racing in the UK and the comparison of the different designs.

          Some of my designs feature a partially peaked deck that doesn't continue all the way aft to the mast. On both swing rigs and the McRigs the spars are angled up around 10 degrees to keep the ends of the rig from dragging or catching in the water when heeled. The upward angle of the forward spar sweeps over the aft panel of the partially peaked deck.

          I've also built several boats with the peaked deck continuing back to the hatch with the mast tubes extending through the ridge of the peaked deck. With this configuration the whole rig is higher off the water but the rig doesn't need to be designed to fit behind a partially peaked deck.

          Footies are so wide open to different approaches, and so new, that no configuration of boat or rig is "the right way". With all the improvements made to the fleet over the original Bob-About these little boats are handling more and more like their larger brethren. I am surprised that more r/c sailors haven't taken to the class. I'm sure with time and exposure the class will grow to respectable numbers on both sides of the pond.
        • wallis_100
          Hi Neil, I believe i am the best of the rest Trevor refers to, as i am fielding a depron Ranger this year. I have been having reasonable sucess, despite a
          Message 4 of 10 , Apr 18, 2012
            Hi Neil,

            I believe i am the 'best of the rest' Trevor refers to, as i am fielding a depron Ranger this year.

            I have been having reasonable sucess, despite a lack of experience in RC yachting. Believe me dinghy experience is not much use when the bow is burried to the mast!

            As such, i've just been playing with a peaked deck for my Ranger. As the mast step is high to clear the box in the 3D position, i can have quite a long deep deck without interfering with the sail.

            First impressions are it helps, but i need to use it in anger to see properly.

            Scott
          • Niel
            Hey Scott, The peaked deck doesn t hurt the boat when it is not needed but might help to save her when others around her bury their bows and lose control. It
            Message 5 of 10 , Apr 22, 2012
              Hey Scott,

              The peaked deck doesn't hurt the boat when it is not needed but might help to save her when others around her bury their bows and lose control. It will take a few rough weather situations for you to know what to do and how to react. The peaked deck will shed water and not let it build up on the deck and hold it under, so if she dives she will come back up faster or in a persistent gust she may sail on her nose but not slow down.

              I was at a Footy race this past weekend and one of the comments that reflects my own convictions put the idea very succinctly, "The rig only needs to bring the boat up to boatspeed, additional area contributes to control issues." Matching the rig to the conditions is a particularly important part of being competitive. Most skippers I've sailed with stay with too much sail area too long. Most current Footies seem to go upwind pretty well when overcanvassed, it is downwind where having too much sail can wreck one's heat.

              There are a couple of other things one can do to help maintain control in strong winds or gusty conditions. When the conditions are blustery and boats are broaching don't try to pass another boat too close to their windward side. I leave about three boat lengths distance so if the other boat suddenly broaches she doesn't take my boat with her. It is safer by far in these conditions to make the pass on the leeward side if possible. All this is particularly important if the boat you are trying to pass is way overcanvassed as broaching for her is not an "if" but a "when". If she loses control but you don't, then the leg is yours.

              One standard reaction to diving is to let your sail(s) out. If you start diving on a broad reach and you let the sails out all the way and the sail luffs the boat will slow and the nose will come up and you can start racing again. But what if the sails are all the way out already? To bring the nose back up pressure on the sail needs to be reduced (just the way luffing does). If the sails are already all out, rather than just flailing and floundering along try bringing the sails in. This will reduce the area presented to the wind enough to bring the nose up. Mind you, this is a very short lived technique because when the nose comes up having the sails part way in can result in a sudden broach. You have to be quick on the sticks and let the sails out to the appropriate setting as soon as the nose comes up.

              Sailing Footies in strong winds is exciting, and also a challenge because there is not a lot of boat in front of the mast. Staying in control is like balancing on the edge of a razor. Concentration and anticipation are paramount to successful racing in rough conditions.

              I hope that some of this helps.
            • Mark
              You are making several good point Neil and well stated also. About sail area it is better to be efficient than large I agree but still rig big and sail ugly
              Message 6 of 10 , Apr 22, 2012
                You are making several good point Neil and well stated also. About sail area it is better to be efficient than large I agree but still "rig big and sail ugly" seems to win races. Another consideration is 1 to 1 sailboats add billowing sail area when sailing off the wind but maintain efficient sails up wind. We have to use the same sails in both directions so tend to be overpowered up wind and underpowered off the wind. When I was researching for my US1M I discovered and interesting tidbit. The amount of ballast in the bulb needs to be balanced to be heavy enough to be ably to carry momentum through tacking so to not get stalled head to win against nosediving off the wind. To illustrate, if you can complete your tacks easily but are nose diving down wind a lighter bulb may help. If you go down wind like smoke and oakum but can't complete tacks more ballast may help the boat sail better.
                Hope this helps
                Mark  

                From: Niel <niel1055@...>
                To: FootyUSA@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 8:30 AM
                Subject: [FootyUSA] Re: To Nose Dive or Not

                 
                Hey Scott,

                The peaked deck doesn't hurt the boat when it is not needed but might help to save her when others around her bury their bows and lose control. It will take a few rough weather situations for you to know what to do and how to react. The peaked deck will shed water and not let it build up on the deck and hold it under, so if she dives she will come back up faster or in a persistent gust she may sail on her nose but not slow down.

                I was at a Footy race this past weekend and one of the comments that reflects my own convictions put the idea very succinctly, "The rig only needs to bring the boat up to boatspeed, additional area contributes to control issues." Matching the rig to the conditions is a particularly important part of being competitive. Most skippers I've sailed with stay with too much sail area too long. Most current Footies seem to go upwind pretty well when overcanvassed, it is downwind where having too much sail can wreck one's heat.

                There are a couple of other things one can do to help maintain control in strong winds or gusty conditions. When the conditions are blustery and boats are broaching don't try to pass another boat too close to their windward side. I leave about three boat lengths distance so if the other boat suddenly broaches she doesn't take my boat with her. It is safer by far in these conditions to make the pass on the leeward side if possible. All this is particularly important if the boat you are trying to pass is way overcanvassed as broaching for her is not an "if" but a "when". If she loses control but you don't, then the leg is yours.

                One standard reaction to diving is to let your sail(s) out. If you start diving on a broad reach and you let the sails out all the way and the sail luffs the boat will slow and the nose will come up and you can start racing again. But what if the sails are all the way out already? To bring the nose back up pressure on the sail needs to be reduced (just the way luffing does). If the sails are already all out, rather than just flailing and floundering along try bringing the sails in. This will reduce the area presented to the wind enough to bring the nose up. Mind you, this is a very short lived technique because when the nose comes up having the sails part way in can result in a sudden broach. You have to be quick on the sticks and let the sails out to the appropriate setting as soon as the nose comes up.

                Sailing Footies in strong winds is exciting, and also a challenge because there is not a lot of boat in front of the mast. Staying in control is like balancing on the edge of a razor. Concentration and anticipation are paramount to successful racing in rough conditions.

                I hope that some of this helps.



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