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Re: [Flewelling] Re: Let's get this party started...

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  • Loireag
    Brett, Thanks for voicing so well something that certainly hooked me about Bone Doll s Twin, as well as sharing such personal insight. I still think, in many
    Message 1 of 30 , Dec 2, 2001
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      Brett,
      Thanks for voicing so well something that certainly hooked me about
      Bone Doll's Twin, as well as sharing such personal insight. I still
      think, in many ways, Bone Doll's Twin is a rather brave book in how
      complicatedly (if that's a word) it works through gender issues -- it's
      a far cry from the fantasy trope of a girl disguising herself as a boy
      in order to be a knight/wizard/what have you. And don't I love it for
      it. I'm terribly curious about how it's all going to keep unravelling.
      :)

      Welcome. :)

      Also, to the other recent comments that have been made:

      Joe Fiennes -- yummy as he is, I still prefer his older brother Ralph.
      Still, he has the most beautiful eyes -- a reviewer once described his
      look as a "bambi-pimp stare" which, I've always thought, was strangely
      accurate. For you fans out there, Joe has an identical twin who's a
      gamekeeper somewhere in England. :) As for Joe Fiennes as Thero...hmm,
      he actually looks very little like how I've pictured Thero. Too pretty
      and not quite, I don't know, regal enough.

      Cait -- I just wanted to say I'm sorry people treated your friend so
      badly concerning George Harrison -- I was with one of my oldest friends
      last night (we've known each other since 1st grade and are still close
      as ever) and we were both teased/bullied for various and sundry reasons
      all through school. We were remembering what it was like, how we
      survived it, and wondering if it had changed at all in recent years.
      Sadly, it does not seem so. Hugs to you and your friend.

      Anyway, I'm off to go read a long article about artists' installations
      on the web...

      cheers,
      Robin

      =====
      Defenceless under the night / Our world in stupor lies;/
      Yet, dotted everywhere, / Ironic points of light /
      Flash out wherever the Just / Exchange their messages: /
      May I, composed like them / Of Eros and of dust, /
      Beleaguered by the same / Negation and despair, /
      Show an affirming flame. -- W. H. Auden
      Visit my manor -- http://www.angelfire.com/ma2/loireag

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    • whetner@yahoo.com
      Brett, you ve brought up some interesting insights... I know that I ve been wondering if Tobin will be always somewhat emotionally distant from everyone
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 2, 2001
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        Brett, you've brought up some interesting insights...

        I know that I've been wondering if Tobin will be always somewhat
        emotionally distant from everyone because of what she's gone through
        as a child.

        -Sherene
      • Brett N. Meroney
        This is all speculation - what I would do, how I would feel in Tobin s shoes: S P O I L E R S P A C E If I were Tobin... I think *confusion* would be the
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 2, 2001
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          This is all speculation - what I would do, how I would feel in
          Tobin's shoes:

          S
          P
          O
          I
          L
          E
          R

          S
          P
          A
          C
          E

          If I were Tobin... I think *confusion* would be the dominant emotion,
          but there would be others: *anger* at those who had inflicted this
          upon me and my brother; *relief* to finally know the source of the
          feelings that had always been frightening to me; *desire* to explore
          my new identity (part of this would be to seek out a female
          confidant, someone who could be a guide for me); *fear* for losing
          the bonds of friendship of those who'd known me as a boy; *fear* for
          all the unknowns of what my new body would be for me; and finally a
          fealing of *loss* of the man I would have become, and of the girl
          child that never was.

          From what I know of Tobin/Tamir, I believe ultimately she will
          forgive some of those involved, but it will be a long process and
          heart-rending. It will not happen before she has her say / puts
          those who abused her and her brother in their place... and she will
          have a face of righteous vengeance to be feared.

          The question of 'emotional distance' is interesting. I'm not sure
          this is how I would put it, though. I imagine she will develop some
          deep emotional bonds with those around her. Gender distance maybe?
          I think yes and no to this one - with some she could form closer
          bonds after the change - with others, she could find increasing
          distance.

          The greatest difficulty of transitioning for TG people in real life
          is coping with loved ones who cannot accept the change - friends and
          family. What of Tobin's life? Will it be as rocky? More because of
          the politics involved?

          If I were the King, learning of the existance of this girl who was
          not a girl, in my righteous mind, I wouldn't be able to cope with
          the 'legitimacy' of her claim. I would feed my supporters the
          argument that she would not be fit to rule - that she was an
          abomination to the Gods. And I would have supporters, for her
          existance would be a threat to the gender reality I had created and
          enforced in my new kingdom.

          This dogma of abomination would be a deep blow to Tobin. All he ever
          wanted was to be a normal boy, a normal girl, more than anything just
          normal. And now this gender conflict, this lack of a true past to
          hold onto will seem a confirmation of the King's words. Tobin must
          journey through this to the truth of the purity of his/her human
          soul. And at this stage, beware those who seek to spread the old
          party line of the King. They will know wrath like no other.


          phew!


          Forgive me for my dogmatic approach here - but with good reason, I've
          got strong feelings about these issues, these conflicts. I've walked
          this road in my soul time and time again. I know the way. But this
          is not to say that my experience is what Lynn seeks in her
          characters, in her plot, or even for the direction of her storys'
          conflicts. It's just my reading. I offer these thoughts with love
          and respect for her craft and relish to see how in the end she will
          carry her own interpretation to the page.

          Love always,

          -Brett


          --- In Flewelling@y..., whetner@y... wrote:
          > Brett, you've brought up some interesting insights...
          >
          > I know that I've been wondering if Tobin will be always somewhat
          > emotionally distant from everyone because of what she's gone
          through
          > as a child.
          >
          > -Sherene
        • Rie Sheridan
          ... S p o i l e r S p a c e ... Isn t the whole point of this deception that the king will never know she exists? I don t think it is intended that she be
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 3, 2001
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            --- "Brett N. Meroney" <gamemstr@...> wrote:
            S
            p
            o
            i
            l
            e
            r

            S
            p
            a
            c
            e

            > If I were the King, learning of the existance of this
            > girl who was
            > not a girl, in my righteous mind, I wouldn't be able to
            > cope with
            > the 'legitimacy' of her claim.

            Isn't the whole point of this deception that the king will
            never know she exists? I don't think it is intended that
            she be revealed in her true self until after the king is
            dead...after all, we DO know pieces of her future from the
            history lessons that Seregil gives Alec....

            Rie

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          • Brett N. Meroney
            ... just having fun speculating what would happen if the King and Tobin/Tamir survived and were at odds with enough support mutually to be contesting for the
            Message 5 of 30 , Dec 3, 2001
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              :) - absolutely correct. But futures contain many threads. I was
              just having fun speculating what would happen if the King and
              Tobin/Tamir survived and were at odds with enough support mutually to
              be contesting for the hearts and minds of the people. When you think
              about it, her opposition needn't even be the King himself - just
              someone with something to gain by keeping the status quo.

              --- In Flewelling@y..., Rie Sheridan <riewrites1@y...> wrote:

              > > If I were the King, learning of the existance of this
              > > girl who was
              > > not a girl, in my righteous mind, I wouldn't be able to
              > > cope with
              > > the 'legitimacy' of her claim.
              >
              > Isn't the whole point of this deception that the king will
              > never know she exists? I don't think it is intended that
              > she be revealed in her true self until after the king is
              > dead...after all, we DO know pieces of her future from the
              > history lessons that Seregil gives Alec....
              >
              > Rie
            • freddie mac
              Hi Brett -- In Flewelling@y..., Brett N. Meroney ... would feel in Tobin s shoes: You ve really added a great deal to the list already,
              Message 6 of 30 , Dec 3, 2001
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                Hi Brett --

                In Flewelling@y..., "Brett N. Meroney" <gamemstr@e...>
                wrote:
                > This is all speculation - what I would do, how I
                would feel in Tobin's shoes:

                You've really added a great deal to the list already,
                thanks! I'm particularly interested in your analysis
                of Tobin/Tamir's emotions below. When I got to that
                part in the book, I realized that Tobin had to be
                undergoing a great deal of emotional turmoil, and the
                breakdown that you've given gives me a clearer
                understanding.

                Spoilage (kinda) below ... you have been warned!

                1
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                (enough)
                ---
                >
                > S
                > P
                > O
                > I
                > L
                > E
                > R
                >
                > S
                > P
                > A
                > C
                > E
                >
                > If I were Tobin... I think *confusion* would be the
                dominant emotion, but there would be others: *anger*
                at those who had inflicted this upon me and my
                brother; *relief* to finally know the source of the
                > feelings that had always been frightening to me;
                *desire* to explore my new identity (part of this
                would be to seek out a female confidant, someone who
                could be a guide for me); *fear* for losing the bonds
                of friendship of those who'd known me as a boy; *fear*
                for all the unknowns of what my new body would be for
                me; and finally a fealing of *loss* of the man I would
                have become, and of the girl child that never was.
                </snip>

                Thinking over that last portion of the book again, I'm
                leaning towards fear being a dominant emotion for a
                while. For too long, Tobin has been *strange* and
                just when he's become somewhat normal, now he's
                learned that he's stranger than he had ever guessed.

                > From what I know of Tobin/Tamir, I believe
                ultimately she will forgive some of those involved,
                but it will be a long process and heart-rending. It
                will not happen before she has her say / puts
                > those who abused her and her brother in their
                place... and she will have a face of righteous
                vengeance to be feared.</snip>
                >
                I agree. Thus far, we've seen that Tobin is generally
                a fair person, but considering that the interference
                of the mages saved and wrecked his life, this will
                probably be a long time coming.


                > The question of 'emotional distance' is interesting.
                I'm not sure this is how I would put it, though. ...
                The greatest difficulty of transitioning for TG people
                in real life is coping with loved ones who cannot
                accept the change - friends and family. What of
                Tobin's life? Will it be as rocky? More because of
                the politics involved? </snip>

                I'd vote for emotional distance. Look at the number
                of people that Tobin has been close to (6 or fewer?),
                and look at how many remain: 2. Again with the fear, I
                think that there will be a great deal of fear that Ki
                and Tharin will abandon him when they learn the truth.
                Tharin has become a surrogate father-figure (always
                there when his own father wasn't), and with Ki, he
                could be normal. Ki didn't laugh at him or whisper
                behind his back, Ki knows about and accepts Brother,
                to some degree. Of everyone, Ki has the best idea of
                *who* Tobin is and what his world is like. Losing
                either Tharin or Ki would be traumatic, but I think
                that losing Ki would be much more damaging.


                <snip>All he ever wanted was to be a normal boy, a
                normal girl, more than anything just normal. And now
                this gender conflict, this lack of a true past to hold
                onto ...</snip>

                Bang -- exactly. Having known from such an early age
                that he was *not* normal, his family was not normal,
                and now to find out that his life has been a lie...


                Thanks for the insights.

                Freddie


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