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Comming of Age

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  • Tawariel
    I have been trying to figure out when Aurenfai come of age. So far I have found nothing definitive. I know that Seregil is still considered a child in
    Message 1 of 23 , Nov 1, 2007
      I have been trying to figure out when Aurenfai come of age.
      So far I have found nothing definitive. I know that Seregil is still
      considered a "child" in Aurenen with his 60something years and that his
      sister became a kirnari (sp?) right after she came of age and is now 120
      year, which is considered young for such a position.
      Has anybody else found something about this? A certain age, like when
      you are 18 in Germany you are of legal age and considered an adult or
      the 21 years in USA?

      Just curious,
      Tawariel
    • lynn_flewelling
      Actually, Seregil is of legal age now (I think!). Somewhere in 50 s, but he s still considered quite young (20 s in human terms) If Alec wasn t a half breed,
      Message 2 of 23 , Nov 1, 2007
        Actually, Seregil is of legal age now (I think!). Somewhere in 50's, but he's still considered
        quite young (20's in human terms) If Alec wasn't a half breed, he'd still be jailbait,
        though. ;-)

        --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, Tawariel <tawariel@...> wrote:
        >
        > I have been trying to figure out when Aurenfai come of age.
        > So far I have found nothing definitive. I know that Seregil is still
        > considered a "child" in Aurenen with his 60something years and that his
        > sister became a kirnari (sp?) right after she came of age and is now 120
        > year, which is considered young for such a position.
        > Has anybody else found something about this? A certain age, like when
        > you are 18 in Germany you are of legal age and considered an adult or
        > the 21 years in USA?
        >
        > Just curious,
        > Tawariel
        >
      • Tawariel
        Not to second guess the word of the goddess. *g* But it said that Adzriel became kirnari right after she was old enough . Taking this to mean her coming of
        Message 3 of 23 , Nov 1, 2007
          Not to second guess the word of the goddess. *g*
          But it said that Adzriel became kirnari right after she "was old
          enough". Taking this to mean her coming of age at (as you say)
          approximately 55 that would make her kirnari for the last 65 years. But
          that is longer than Seregil has been exiled, he said to Alec something
          about being exiled for "twice your lifetime", so not quite 40 years.
          Which means I must have mixed up those time lines somewhere. But where?
          *puzzled frown*

          lynn_flewelling schrieb:
          > Actually, Seregil is of legal age now (I think!). Somewhere in 50's, but he's still considered
          > quite young (20's in human terms) If Alec wasn't a half breed, he'd still be jailbait,
          > though. ;-)
          >
        • lynn_flewelling
          Adzriel had only recently become Khirnari when she meets Seregil at the Palace in SD (?) And in Luck, Seregil gives Alec his age, which I think was somewhere
          Message 4 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
            Adzriel had only recently become Khirnari when she meets Seregil at the Palace in SD (?)
            And in Luck, Seregil gives Alec his age, which I think was somewhere in teh early 60s.

            Or at least that's what my faulty memory tells me, without the books in reach. ;-)

            Lynn

            --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, Tawariel <tawariel@...> wrote:
            >
            > Not to second guess the word of the goddess. *g*
            > But it said that Adzriel became kirnari right after she "was old
            > enough". Taking this to mean her coming of age at (as you say)
            > approximately 55 that would make her kirnari for the last 65 years. But
            > that is longer than Seregil has been exiled, he said to Alec something
            > about being exiled for "twice your lifetime", so not quite 40 years.
            > Which means I must have mixed up those time lines somewhere. But where?
            > *puzzled frown*
            >
            > lynn_flewelling schrieb:
            > > Actually, Seregil is of legal age now (I think!). Somewhere in 50's, but he's still
            considered
            > > quite young (20's in human terms) If Alec wasn't a half breed, he'd still be jailbait,
            > > though. ;-)
            > >
            >
          • Addie Underwood
            I thought Seregil was 58 in Luck... As far as not being of age, I read it as he was not even old enough to get married or own land when he was exiled, not
            Message 5 of 23 , Nov 2, 2007
              I thought Seregil was 58 in Luck...

              As far as not being of age, I read it as he was not "even old enough to get married or own land" when he was exiled, not when he met Alec.

              How old was he when he was exiled, and how long until he returned to Aurenen with Alec?


              Addie



              ----- Original Message -----
              From: lynn_flewelling
              To: Flewelling@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 6:47 AM
              Subject: [Flewelling] Re: Comming of Age


              Adzriel had only recently become Khirnari when she meets Seregil at the Palace in SD (?)
              And in Luck, Seregil gives Alec his age, which I think was somewhere in teh early 60s.

              Or at least that's what my faulty memory tells me, without the books in reach. ;-)

              Lynn

              --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, Tawariel <tawariel@...> wrote:
              >
              > Not to second guess the word of the goddess. *g*
              > But it said that Adzriel became kirnari right after she "was old
              > enough". Taking this to mean her coming of age at (as you say)
              > approximately 55 that would make her kirnari for the last 65 years. But
              > that is longer than Seregil has been exiled, he said to Alec something
              > about being exiled for "twice your lifetime", so not quite 40 years.
              > Which means I must have mixed up those time lines somewhere. But where?
              > *puzzled frown*
              >
              > lynn_flewelling schrieb:
              > > Actually, Seregil is of legal age now (I think!). Somewhere in 50's, but he's still
              considered
              > > quite young (20's in human terms) If Alec wasn't a half breed, he'd still be jailbait,
              > > though. ;-)
              > >
              >





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • beccablue42
              First of all, just as a note to ourselves, never, ever open _Stalking Darkness_ just to find something at half past midnight. Because I always have to then
              Message 6 of 23 , Nov 3, 2007
                First of all, just as a note to ourselves, never, ever open _Stalking
                Darkness_ "just to find something" at half past midnight. Because I
                always have to then read the scene at Watermeade when Seregil first
                realizes he loves Alec, and then of course "Street of Lights." Then I
                have to read the scene with Adzriel and Seregil ('Old Sorrows', which
                does not tell us anything about how old Adzriel is, btw), and the
                scene where Seregil returns to find Alec's been kidnapped.
                Then 'Vengeance' (the killing of fake!Seregil and of Ashnazi),
                and "Stag in the Dark" obviously, and Beka's charge of the ritual,
                and then the last chapter.

                So, having gone to bed at ten after one this morning, I still don't
                have your definitive answer, but here's my best.

                1. Seregil is 22 the summer of Illar-gate. "By Aurenfaie reckoning,
                that made me younger than you [alec] are now." (TM, p.27).

                2. Seregil is exiled for approximately 40 years. (he holds back 'four
                decades of unshed tears' when he greets Adzriel in 'Old Sorrows', SD,
                p.221).

                3. fifty-eight is the age that sticks in my head. But there are 2
                years between SD and TM, and almost a year just between the beginning
                and end of LitS/SD. So whether he's 58 at the beginning of LitS or at
                the end of TM, we adjust his age through the events of the series
                accordingly. Seregil is somewhere between 56-62. He is still
                considered a young man by his people, but now old enough to marry
                (clearly) and own land as well, I believe.

                4. Adzriel is around 100-120, and is named khirnari sometime during
                the events of LitS/SD (at the Mourning Night party, Alec first learns
                of her and her role in the I'isidra, just after the body of Corruth
                is discovered-- that scene also does not give us he age, though).
                Notably, she was not married when Seregil left Aurenen 40 years
                earlier (she'd have been, say 70 or so), and was by no means
                considered an old maid. She is one of the youngest khirnaris in
                memory. I can't find the scene that tells us all this, though.

                5. My final point: there's more than one age to 'come of age.' In the
                U.S., for example, 16 is the age of sexual consent (Alec ceases to be
                jailbait), 18 is the age of legal adulthood, the most obvious coming
                of age (voting, military serivce, etc), and 21 is the age when one
                can buy alcohol. But one is still not old enough to run for
                President. That age is 35, and at 42 Teddy Roosevelt was the youngest
                president (after McKinley was assassinated; Kennedy was the youngest
                *elected* at 43, Clinton the next-youngest at 46). So, When Seregil
                is exiled, he is considered to be not-yet 16, pre-consent, which is
                why he and his supporters argue so strongly for the ban to be lifted
                because he was still a child. He has since come of age and can choose
                a talimenios, although he is young to do so, probably around what 21
                would be in the U.S. But he has not yet reached the age where one
                could 'run' for khirnari. Adzriel has, and like Roosevelt or Kennedy,
                is a young public servant.

                That's my understanding.

                By the Four, we need a lexicon. Not published and copyright-
                infringed, of course ;)

                Becca

                who had a great time out for dinner last night, Lynn, and a greeat
                time reading SD, but is quite tired. Do toddlers always wake up at
                6:30? No matter what time their mamas go to bed?



                --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "Addie Underwood"
                <VampirSioraf@...> wrote:
                >
                > I thought Seregil was 58 in Luck...
                >
                > As far as not being of age, I read it as he was not "even old
                enough to get married or own land" when he was exiled, not when he
                met Alec.
                >
                > How old was he when he was exiled, and how long until he returned
                to Aurenen with Alec?
                >
                >
                > Addie
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: lynn_flewelling
                > To: Flewelling@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 6:47 AM
                > Subject: [Flewelling] Re: Comming of Age
                >
                >
                > Adzriel had only recently become Khirnari when she meets Seregil
                at the Palace in SD (?)
                > And in Luck, Seregil gives Alec his age, which I think was
                somewhere in teh early 60s.
                >
                > Or at least that's what my faulty memory tells me, without the
                books in reach. ;-)
                >
                > Lynn
                >
                > --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, Tawariel <tawariel@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Not to second guess the word of the goddess. *g*
                > > But it said that Adzriel became kirnari right after she "was
                old
                > > enough". Taking this to mean her coming of age at (as you say)
                > > approximately 55 that would make her kirnari for the last 65
                years. But
                > > that is longer than Seregil has been exiled, he said to Alec
                something
                > > about being exiled for "twice your lifetime", so not quite 40
                years.
                > > Which means I must have mixed up those time lines somewhere.
                But where?
                > > *puzzled frown*
                > >
                > > lynn_flewelling schrieb:
                > > > Actually, Seregil is of legal age now (I think!). Somewhere
                in 50's, but he's still
                > considered
                > > > quite young (20's in human terms) If Alec wasn't a half
                breed, he'd still be jailbait,
                > > > though. ;-)
                > > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
              • lynn_flewelling
                Becca! Thanks so much for doing all that. Sorry about the lost sleep. As always, the readers know the books better than I do. :-) Dinner with you and Lissa
                Message 7 of 23 , Nov 3, 2007
                  Becca! Thanks so much for doing all that. Sorry about the lost sleep. As always, the
                  readers know the books better than I do. :-)

                  Dinner with you and 'Lissa was a high point of the con. Great to see you both in person
                  again. Keep the faith. *g*


                  And yes, toddlers do know when you are most sleep deprived and they prey on you then.
                  They are evil.

                  Lynn

                  --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "beccablue42" <beccablue42@...> wrote:>
                  > First of all, just as a note to ourselves, never, ever open _Stalking
                  > Darkness_ "just to find something" at half past midnight. Because I
                  > always have to then read the scene at Watermeade when Seregil first
                  > realizes he loves Alec, and then of course "Street of Lights." Then I
                  > have to read the scene with Adzriel and Seregil ('Old Sorrows', which
                  > does not tell us anything about how old Adzriel is, btw), and the
                  > scene where Seregil returns to find Alec's been kidnapped.
                  > Then 'Vengeance' (the killing of fake!Seregil and of Ashnazi),
                  > and "Stag in the Dark" obviously, and Beka's charge of the ritual,
                  > and then the last chapter.
                  >
                  > So, having gone to bed at ten after one this morning, I still don't
                  > have your definitive answer, but here's my best.
                  >
                  > 1. Seregil is 22 the summer of Illar-gate. "By Aurenfaie reckoning,
                  > that made me younger than you [alec] are now." (TM, p.27).
                  >
                  > 2. Seregil is exiled for approximately 40 years. (he holds back 'four
                  > decades of unshed tears' when he greets Adzriel in 'Old Sorrows', SD,
                  > p.221).
                  >
                  > 3. fifty-eight is the age that sticks in my head. But there are 2
                  > years between SD and TM, and almost a year just between the beginning
                  > and end of LitS/SD. So whether he's 58 at the beginning of LitS or at
                  > the end of TM, we adjust his age through the events of the series
                  > accordingly. Seregil is somewhere between 56-62. He is still
                  > considered a young man by his people, but now old enough to marry
                  > (clearly) and own land as well, I believe.
                  >
                  > 4. Adzriel is around 100-120, and is named khirnari sometime during
                  > the events of LitS/SD (at the Mourning Night party, Alec first learns
                  > of her and her role in the I'isidra, just after the body of Corruth
                  > is discovered-- that scene also does not give us he age, though).
                  > Notably, she was not married when Seregil left Aurenen 40 years
                  > earlier (she'd have been, say 70 or so), and was by no means
                  > considered an old maid. She is one of the youngest khirnaris in
                  > memory. I can't find the scene that tells us all this, though.
                  >
                  > 5. My final point: there's more than one age to 'come of age.' In the
                  > U.S., for example, 16 is the age of sexual consent (Alec ceases to be
                  > jailbait), 18 is the age of legal adulthood, the most obvious coming
                  > of age (voting, military serivce, etc), and 21 is the age when one
                  > can buy alcohol. But one is still not old enough to run for
                  > President. That age is 35, and at 42 Teddy Roosevelt was the youngest
                  > president (after McKinley was assassinated; Kennedy was the youngest
                  > *elected* at 43, Clinton the next-youngest at 46). So, When Seregil
                  > is exiled, he is considered to be not-yet 16, pre-consent, which is
                  > why he and his supporters argue so strongly for the ban to be lifted
                  > because he was still a child. He has since come of age and can choose
                  > a talimenios, although he is young to do so, probably around what 21
                  > would be in the U.S. But he has not yet reached the age where one
                  > could 'run' for khirnari. Adzriel has, and like Roosevelt or Kennedy,
                  > is a young public servant.
                  >
                  > That's my understanding.
                  >
                  > By the Four, we need a lexicon. Not published and copyright-
                  > infringed, of course ;)
                  >
                  > Becca
                  >
                  > who had a great time out for dinner last night, Lynn, and a greeat
                  > time reading SD, but is quite tired. Do toddlers always wake up at
                  > 6:30? No matter what time their mamas go to bed?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "Addie Underwood"
                  > <VampirSioraf@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I thought Seregil was 58 in Luck...
                  > >
                  > > As far as not being of age, I read it as he was not "even old
                  > enough to get married or own land" when he was exiled, not when he
                  > met Alec.
                  > >
                  > > How old was he when he was exiled, and how long until he returned
                  > to Aurenen with Alec?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Addie
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: lynn_flewelling
                  > > To: Flewelling@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 6:47 AM
                  > > Subject: [Flewelling] Re: Comming of Age
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Adzriel had only recently become Khirnari when she meets Seregil
                  > at the Palace in SD (?)
                  > > And in Luck, Seregil gives Alec his age, which I think was
                  > somewhere in teh early 60s.
                  > >
                  > > Or at least that's what my faulty memory tells me, without the
                  > books in reach. ;-)
                  > >
                  > > Lynn
                  > >
                  > > --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, Tawariel <tawariel@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Not to second guess the word of the goddess. *g*
                  > > > But it said that Adzriel became kirnari right after she "was
                  > old
                  > > > enough". Taking this to mean her coming of age at (as you say)
                  > > > approximately 55 that would make her kirnari for the last 65
                  > years. But
                  > > > that is longer than Seregil has been exiled, he said to Alec
                  > something
                  > > > about being exiled for "twice your lifetime", so not quite 40
                  > years.
                  > > > Which means I must have mixed up those time lines somewhere.
                  > But where?
                  > > > *puzzled frown*
                  > > >
                  > > > lynn_flewelling schrieb:
                  > > > > Actually, Seregil is of legal age now (I think!). Somewhere
                  > in 50's, but he's still
                  > > considered
                  > > > > quite young (20's in human terms) If Alec wasn't a half
                  > breed, he'd still be jailbait,
                  > > > > though. ;-)
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  >
                • Tawariel
                  Thank you so much for clearing all this up for me. Your explanation makes a lot more sense than what I came up with. Tawariel
                  Message 8 of 23 , Nov 3, 2007
                    Thank you so much for clearing all this up for me. Your explanation
                    makes a lot more sense than what I came up with.

                    Tawariel

                    beccablue42 schrieb:
                    > First of all, just as a note to ourselves, never, ever open _Stalking
                    > Darkness_ "just to find something" at half past midnight. Because I
                    > always have to then read the scene at Watermeade when Seregil first
                    > realizes he loves Alec, and then of course "Street of Lights." Then I
                    > have to read the scene with Adzriel and Seregil ('Old Sorrows', which
                    > does not tell us anything about how old Adzriel is, btw), and the
                    > scene where Seregil returns to find Alec's been kidnapped.
                    > Then 'Vengeance' (the killing of fake!Seregil and of Ashnazi),
                    > and "Stag in the Dark" obviously, and Beka's charge of the ritual,
                    > and then the last chapter.
                    >
                    > So, having gone to bed at ten after one this morning, I still don't
                    > have your definitive answer, but here's my best.
                    >
                    > 1. Seregil is 22 the summer of Illar-gate. "By Aurenfaie reckoning,
                    > that made me younger than you [alec] are now." (TM, p.27).
                    >
                    > 2. Seregil is exiled for approximately 40 years. (he holds back 'four
                    > decades of unshed tears' when he greets Adzriel in 'Old Sorrows', SD,
                    > p.221).
                    >
                    > 3. fifty-eight is the age that sticks in my head. But there are 2
                    > years between SD and TM, and almost a year just between the beginning
                    > and end of LitS/SD. So whether he's 58 at the beginning of LitS or at
                    > the end of TM, we adjust his age through the events of the series
                    > accordingly. Seregil is somewhere between 56-62. He is still
                    > considered a young man by his people, but now old enough to marry
                    > (clearly) and own land as well, I believe.
                    >
                    > 4. Adzriel is around 100-120, and is named khirnari sometime during
                    > the events of LitS/SD (at the Mourning Night party, Alec first learns
                    > of her and her role in the I'isidra, just after the body of Corruth
                    > is discovered-- that scene also does not give us he age, though).
                    > Notably, she was not married when Seregil left Aurenen 40 years
                    > earlier (she'd have been, say 70 or so), and was by no means
                    > considered an old maid. She is one of the youngest khirnaris in
                    > memory. I can't find the scene that tells us all this, though.
                    >
                    > 5. My final point: there's more than one age to 'come of age.' In the
                    > U.S., for example, 16 is the age of sexual consent (Alec ceases to be
                    > jailbait), 18 is the age of legal adulthood, the most obvious coming
                    > of age (voting, military serivce, etc), and 21 is the age when one
                    > can buy alcohol. But one is still not old enough to run for
                    > President. That age is 35, and at 42 Teddy Roosevelt was the youngest
                    > president (after McKinley was assassinated; Kennedy was the youngest
                    > *elected* at 43, Clinton the next-youngest at 46). So, When Seregil
                    > is exiled, he is considered to be not-yet 16, pre-consent, which is
                    > why he and his supporters argue so strongly for the ban to be lifted
                    > because he was still a child. He has since come of age and can choose
                    > a talimenios, although he is young to do so, probably around what 21
                    > would be in the U.S. But he has not yet reached the age where one
                    > could 'run' for khirnari. Adzriel has, and like Roosevelt or Kennedy,
                    > is a young public servant.
                    >
                    > That's my understanding.
                    >
                    > By the Four, we need a lexicon. Not published and copyright-
                    > infringed, of course ;)
                    >
                    > Becca
                    >
                    > who had a great time out for dinner last night, Lynn, and a greeat
                    > time reading SD, but is quite tired. Do toddlers always wake up at
                    > 6:30? No matter what time their mamas go to bed?
                    >
                  • beccablue42
                    If I made you apologize for every time I lost sleep reading or thinking about your books, you d be most hoarse. And yeah, nerdy as it may be, I ve analyzed the
                    Message 9 of 23 , Nov 3, 2007
                      If I made you apologize for every time I lost sleep reading or
                      thinking about your books, you'd be most hoarse. And yeah, nerdy as
                      it may be, I've analyzed the living bejeesus out of Nightrunner. Have
                      you *seen* my timeline? Heh.

                      A joy to spend time with you, and not even pester you (much) about
                      _Shadows Return_.

                      By evil, we mean that in the sweetest, cutest, and most sleep-
                      depriving senses, yes?

                      Safe trip, and enjoy the time with your son! Who I'm sure never woke
                      up before 8 a.m. after you'd had a late night...

                      Becca


                      --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "lynn_flewelling"
                      <otterdance2@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Becca! Thanks so much for doing all that. Sorry about the lost
                      sleep. As always, the
                      > readers know the books better than I do. :-)
                      >
                      > Dinner with you and 'Lissa was a high point of the con. Great to
                      see you both in person
                      > again. Keep the faith. *g*
                      >
                      >
                      > And yes, toddlers do know when you are most sleep deprived and they
                      prey on you then.
                      > They are evil.
                      >
                      > Lynn
                      >
                      > --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "beccablue42" <beccablue42@>
                      wrote:>
                      > > First of all, just as a note to ourselves, never, ever open
                      _Stalking
                      > > Darkness_ "just to find something" at half past midnight. Because
                      I
                      > > always have to then read the scene at Watermeade when Seregil
                      first
                      > > realizes he loves Alec, and then of course "Street of Lights."
                      Then I
                      > > have to read the scene with Adzriel and Seregil ('Old Sorrows',
                      which
                      > > does not tell us anything about how old Adzriel is, btw), and the
                      > > scene where Seregil returns to find Alec's been kidnapped.
                      > > Then 'Vengeance' (the killing of fake!Seregil and of Ashnazi),
                      > > and "Stag in the Dark" obviously, and Beka's charge of the
                      ritual,
                      > > and then the last chapter.
                      > >
                      > > So, having gone to bed at ten after one this morning, I still
                      don't
                      > > have your definitive answer, but here's my best.
                      > >
                      > > 1. Seregil is 22 the summer of Illar-gate. "By Aurenfaie
                      reckoning,
                      > > that made me younger than you [alec] are now." (TM, p.27).
                      > >
                      > > 2. Seregil is exiled for approximately 40 years. (he holds
                      back 'four
                      > > decades of unshed tears' when he greets Adzriel in 'Old Sorrows',
                      SD,
                      > > p.221).
                      > >
                      > > 3. fifty-eight is the age that sticks in my head. But there are 2
                      > > years between SD and TM, and almost a year just between the
                      beginning
                      > > and end of LitS/SD. So whether he's 58 at the beginning of LitS
                      or at
                      > > the end of TM, we adjust his age through the events of the series
                      > > accordingly. Seregil is somewhere between 56-62. He is still
                      > > considered a young man by his people, but now old enough to marry
                      > > (clearly) and own land as well, I believe.
                      > >
                      > > 4. Adzriel is around 100-120, and is named khirnari sometime
                      during
                      > > the events of LitS/SD (at the Mourning Night party, Alec first
                      learns
                      > > of her and her role in the I'isidra, just after the body of
                      Corruth
                      > > is discovered-- that scene also does not give us he age, though).
                      > > Notably, she was not married when Seregil left Aurenen 40 years
                      > > earlier (she'd have been, say 70 or so), and was by no means
                      > > considered an old maid. She is one of the youngest khirnaris in
                      > > memory. I can't find the scene that tells us all this, though.
                      > >
                      > > 5. My final point: there's more than one age to 'come of age.' In
                      the
                      > > U.S., for example, 16 is the age of sexual consent (Alec ceases
                      to be
                      > > jailbait), 18 is the age of legal adulthood, the most obvious
                      coming
                      > > of age (voting, military serivce, etc), and 21 is the age when
                      one
                      > > can buy alcohol. But one is still not old enough to run for
                      > > President. That age is 35, and at 42 Teddy Roosevelt was the
                      youngest
                      > > president (after McKinley was assassinated; Kennedy was the
                      youngest
                      > > *elected* at 43, Clinton the next-youngest at 46). So, When
                      Seregil
                      > > is exiled, he is considered to be not-yet 16, pre-consent, which
                      is
                      > > why he and his supporters argue so strongly for the ban to be
                      lifted
                      > > because he was still a child. He has since come of age and can
                      choose
                      > > a talimenios, although he is young to do so, probably around what
                      21
                      > > would be in the U.S. But he has not yet reached the age where one
                      > > could 'run' for khirnari. Adzriel has, and like Roosevelt or
                      Kennedy,
                      > > is a young public servant.
                      > >
                      > > That's my understanding.
                      > >
                      > > By the Four, we need a lexicon. Not published and copyright-
                      > > infringed, of course ;)
                      > >
                      > > Becca
                      > >
                      > > who had a great time out for dinner last night, Lynn, and a
                      greeat
                      > > time reading SD, but is quite tired. Do toddlers always wake up
                      at
                      > > 6:30? No matter what time their mamas go to bed?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "Addie Underwood"
                      > > <VampirSioraf@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > I thought Seregil was 58 in Luck...
                      > > >
                      > > > As far as not being of age, I read it as he was not "even old
                      > > enough to get married or own land" when he was exiled, not when
                      he
                      > > met Alec.
                      > > >
                      > > > How old was he when he was exiled, and how long until he
                      returned
                      > > to Aurenen with Alec?
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Addie
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > From: lynn_flewelling
                      > > > To: Flewelling@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 6:47 AM
                      > > > Subject: [Flewelling] Re: Comming of Age
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Adzriel had only recently become Khirnari when she meets
                      Seregil
                      > > at the Palace in SD (?)
                      > > > And in Luck, Seregil gives Alec his age, which I think was
                      > > somewhere in teh early 60s.
                      > > >
                      > > > Or at least that's what my faulty memory tells me, without
                      the
                      > > books in reach. ;-)
                      > > >
                      > > > Lynn
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, Tawariel <tawariel@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Not to second guess the word of the goddess. *g*
                      > > > > But it said that Adzriel became kirnari right after
                      she "was
                      > > old
                      > > > > enough". Taking this to mean her coming of age at (as you
                      say)
                      > > > > approximately 55 that would make her kirnari for the last
                      65
                      > > years. But
                      > > > > that is longer than Seregil has been exiled, he said to
                      Alec
                      > > something
                      > > > > about being exiled for "twice your lifetime", so not quite
                      40
                      > > years.
                      > > > > Which means I must have mixed up those time lines
                      somewhere.
                      > > But where?
                      > > > > *puzzled frown*
                      > > > >
                      > > > > lynn_flewelling schrieb:
                      > > > > > Actually, Seregil is of legal age now (I think!).
                      Somewhere
                      > > in 50's, but he's still
                      > > > considered
                      > > > > > quite young (20's in human terms) If Alec wasn't a half
                      > > breed, he'd still be jailbait,
                      > > > > > though. ;-)
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Addie Underwood
                      *huge round of applause for Becca, with many stage lights flashing and triumphant music playing* Thanks so much! Addie ... From: beccablue42 To:
                      Message 10 of 23 , Nov 3, 2007
                        *huge round of applause for Becca, with many stage lights flashing and triumphant music playing*


                        Thanks so much!


                        Addie
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: beccablue42
                        To: Flewelling@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2007 7:55 AM
                        Subject: [Flewelling] Re: Comming of Age


                        If I made you apologize for every time I lost sleep reading or
                        thinking about your books, you'd be most hoarse. And yeah, nerdy as
                        it may be, I've analyzed the living bejeesus out of Nightrunner. Have
                        you *seen* my timeline? Heh.

                        A joy to spend time with you, and not even pester you (much) about
                        _Shadows Return_.

                        By evil, we mean that in the sweetest, cutest, and most sleep-
                        depriving senses, yes?

                        Safe trip, and enjoy the time with your son! Who I'm sure never woke
                        up before 8 a.m. after you'd had a late night...

                        Becca

                        --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "lynn_flewelling"
                        <otterdance2@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Becca! Thanks so much for doing all that. Sorry about the lost
                        sleep. As always, the
                        > readers know the books better than I do. :-)
                        >
                        > Dinner with you and 'Lissa was a high point of the con. Great to
                        see you both in person
                        > again. Keep the faith. *g*
                        >
                        >
                        > And yes, toddlers do know when you are most sleep deprived and they
                        prey on you then.
                        > They are evil.
                        >
                        > Lynn
                        >
                        > --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "beccablue42" <beccablue42@>
                        wrote:>
                        > > First of all, just as a note to ourselves, never, ever open
                        _Stalking
                        > > Darkness_ "just to find something" at half past midnight. Because
                        I
                        > > always have to then read the scene at Watermeade when Seregil
                        first
                        > > realizes he loves Alec, and then of course "Street of Lights."
                        Then I
                        > > have to read the scene with Adzriel and Seregil ('Old Sorrows',
                        which
                        > > does not tell us anything about how old Adzriel is, btw), and the
                        > > scene where Seregil returns to find Alec's been kidnapped.
                        > > Then 'Vengeance' (the killing of fake!Seregil and of Ashnazi),
                        > > and "Stag in the Dark" obviously, and Beka's charge of the
                        ritual,
                        > > and then the last chapter.
                        > >
                        > > So, having gone to bed at ten after one this morning, I still
                        don't
                        > > have your definitive answer, but here's my best.
                        > >
                        > > 1. Seregil is 22 the summer of Illar-gate. "By Aurenfaie
                        reckoning,
                        > > that made me younger than you [alec] are now." (TM, p.27).
                        > >
                        > > 2. Seregil is exiled for approximately 40 years. (he holds
                        back 'four
                        > > decades of unshed tears' when he greets Adzriel in 'Old Sorrows',
                        SD,
                        > > p.221).
                        > >
                        > > 3. fifty-eight is the age that sticks in my head. But there are 2
                        > > years between SD and TM, and almost a year just between the
                        beginning
                        > > and end of LitS/SD. So whether he's 58 at the beginning of LitS
                        or at
                        > > the end of TM, we adjust his age through the events of the series
                        > > accordingly. Seregil is somewhere between 56-62. He is still
                        > > considered a young man by his people, but now old enough to marry
                        > > (clearly) and own land as well, I believe.
                        > >
                        > > 4. Adzriel is around 100-120, and is named khirnari sometime
                        during
                        > > the events of LitS/SD (at the Mourning Night party, Alec first
                        learns
                        > > of her and her role in the I'isidra, just after the body of
                        Corruth
                        > > is discovered-- that scene also does not give us he age, though).
                        > > Notably, she was not married when Seregil left Aurenen 40 years
                        > > earlier (she'd have been, say 70 or so), and was by no means
                        > > considered an old maid. She is one of the youngest khirnaris in
                        > > memory. I can't find the scene that tells us all this, though.
                        > >
                        > > 5. My final point: there's more than one age to 'come of age.' In
                        the
                        > > U.S., for example, 16 is the age of sexual consent (Alec ceases
                        to be
                        > > jailbait), 18 is the age of legal adulthood, the most obvious
                        coming
                        > > of age (voting, military serivce, etc), and 21 is the age when
                        one
                        > > can buy alcohol. But one is still not old enough to run for
                        > > President. That age is 35, and at 42 Teddy Roosevelt was the
                        youngest
                        > > president (after McKinley was assassinated; Kennedy was the
                        youngest
                        > > *elected* at 43, Clinton the next-youngest at 46). So, When
                        Seregil
                        > > is exiled, he is considered to be not-yet 16, pre-consent, which
                        is
                        > > why he and his supporters argue so strongly for the ban to be
                        lifted
                        > > because he was still a child. He has since come of age and can
                        choose
                        > > a talimenios, although he is young to do so, probably around what
                        21
                        > > would be in the U.S. But he has not yet reached the age where one
                        > > could 'run' for khirnari. Adzriel has, and like Roosevelt or
                        Kennedy,
                        > > is a young public servant.
                        > >
                        > > That's my understanding.
                        > >
                        > > By the Four, we need a lexicon. Not published and copyright-
                        > > infringed, of course ;)
                        > >
                        > > Becca
                        > >
                        > > who had a great time out for dinner last night, Lynn, and a
                        greeat
                        > > time reading SD, but is quite tired. Do toddlers always wake up
                        at
                        > > 6:30? No matter what time their mamas go to bed?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "Addie Underwood"
                        > > <VampirSioraf@> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > I thought Seregil was 58 in Luck...
                        > > >
                        > > > As far as not being of age, I read it as he was not "even old
                        > > enough to get married or own land" when he was exiled, not when
                        he
                        > > met Alec.
                        > > >
                        > > > How old was he when he was exiled, and how long until he
                        returned
                        > > to Aurenen with Alec?
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Addie
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > > From: lynn_flewelling
                        > > > To: Flewelling@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 6:47 AM
                        > > > Subject: [Flewelling] Re: Comming of Age
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Adzriel had only recently become Khirnari when she meets
                        Seregil
                        > > at the Palace in SD (?)
                        > > > And in Luck, Seregil gives Alec his age, which I think was
                        > > somewhere in teh early 60s.
                        > > >
                        > > > Or at least that's what my faulty memory tells me, without
                        the
                        > > books in reach. ;-)
                        > > >
                        > > > Lynn
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, Tawariel <tawariel@> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Not to second guess the word of the goddess. *g*
                        > > > > But it said that Adzriel became kirnari right after
                        she "was
                        > > old
                        > > > > enough". Taking this to mean her coming of age at (as you
                        say)
                        > > > > approximately 55 that would make her kirnari for the last
                        65
                        > > years. But
                        > > > > that is longer than Seregil has been exiled, he said to
                        Alec
                        > > something
                        > > > > about being exiled for "twice your lifetime", so not quite
                        40
                        > > years.
                        > > > > Which means I must have mixed up those time lines
                        somewhere.
                        > > But where?
                        > > > > *puzzled frown*
                        > > > >
                        > > > > lynn_flewelling schrieb:
                        > > > > > Actually, Seregil is of legal age now (I think!).
                        Somewhere
                        > > in 50's, but he's still
                        > > > considered
                        > > > > > quite young (20's in human terms) If Alec wasn't a half
                        > > breed, he'd still be jailbait,
                        > > > > > though. ;-)
                        > > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >





                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • psionycx
                        I don t recall Lynn actually specifying anywhere what the legal age of adulthood is in Aurenen, but I do recall Seregil commenting to Alec in Stalking Darkness
                        Message 11 of 23 , Nov 4, 2007
                          I don't recall Lynn actually specifying anywhere what the legal age
                          of adulthood is in Aurenen, but I do recall Seregil commenting to
                          Alec in Stalking Darkness that at his current age (approx 58) he
                          would not be allowed to hold property in Aurenen, making it ironic
                          just how much of a magnate he is in Skala.

                          Alec is 16, which is very young by Aurenfaie standards, but he grew
                          up amongst humans and is half-human himself so his maturity is beyond
                          the Aurenfaie norm.

                          Modern American age metrics are almost worthless here, because most
                          of them are very recent historically speaking. Indeed, there are
                          still several U.S. states where people in their early teens can be
                          married off with parental consent (Alabama and West Virginia come to
                          mind). Prior to modern times it was very common for people at age 16
                          to get married or go to war. And indeed it is implied in SD that
                          either would be a permissable option for Alec at his present age.
                          There is also no question asked as to Alec's right to drink alcohol
                          or patronize a brothel.

                          Thus Seregil and Alec's relationship doesn't come across as
                          pederastry because realistically speaking, he and Alec are actually
                          about the same age in their respective cultures. If anything the
                          issue is that Seregil is abnormally mature for an Aurenfaie his age
                          (having spent so much of his life amongst humans) rather than that
                          Alec is too young. Nobody would argue that Alec was too young to
                          marry Beka for example (indeed, Valerius would have married them in a
                          heartbeat).

                          The only unclear point is whether Seregil is really a legal adult (by
                          the time of Traitor's Moon) in Aurenen because it is quite clear that
                          Alec is in Skala. Seregil of course is too, but that's a given
                          considering that he's about 60.


                          --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "beccablue42" <beccablue42@...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > First of all, just as a note to ourselves, never, ever open
                          _Stalking
                          > Darkness_ "just to find something" at half past midnight. Because I
                          > always have to then read the scene at Watermeade when Seregil first
                          > realizes he loves Alec, and then of course "Street of Lights." Then
                          I
                          > have to read the scene with Adzriel and Seregil ('Old Sorrows',
                          which
                          > does not tell us anything about how old Adzriel is, btw), and the
                          > scene where Seregil returns to find Alec's been kidnapped.
                          > Then 'Vengeance' (the killing of fake!Seregil and of Ashnazi),
                          > and "Stag in the Dark" obviously, and Beka's charge of the ritual,
                          > and then the last chapter.
                          >
                          > So, having gone to bed at ten after one this morning, I still don't
                          > have your definitive answer, but here's my best.
                          >
                          > 1. Seregil is 22 the summer of Illar-gate. "By Aurenfaie reckoning,
                          > that made me younger than you [alec] are now." (TM, p.27).
                          >
                          > 2. Seregil is exiled for approximately 40 years. (he holds
                          back 'four
                          > decades of unshed tears' when he greets Adzriel in 'Old Sorrows',
                          SD,
                          > p.221).
                          >
                          > 3. fifty-eight is the age that sticks in my head. But there are 2
                          > years between SD and TM, and almost a year just between the
                          beginning
                          > and end of LitS/SD. So whether he's 58 at the beginning of LitS or
                          at
                          > the end of TM, we adjust his age through the events of the series
                          > accordingly. Seregil is somewhere between 56-62. He is still
                          > considered a young man by his people, but now old enough to marry
                          > (clearly) and own land as well, I believe.
                          >
                          > 4. Adzriel is around 100-120, and is named khirnari sometime during
                          > the events of LitS/SD (at the Mourning Night party, Alec first
                          learns
                          > of her and her role in the I'isidra, just after the body of Corruth
                          > is discovered-- that scene also does not give us he age, though).
                          > Notably, she was not married when Seregil left Aurenen 40 years
                          > earlier (she'd have been, say 70 or so), and was by no means
                          > considered an old maid. She is one of the youngest khirnaris in
                          > memory. I can't find the scene that tells us all this, though.
                          >
                          > 5. My final point: there's more than one age to 'come of age.' In
                          the
                          > U.S., for example, 16 is the age of sexual consent (Alec ceases to
                          be
                          > jailbait), 18 is the age of legal adulthood, the most obvious
                          coming
                          > of age (voting, military serivce, etc), and 21 is the age when one
                          > can buy alcohol. But one is still not old enough to run for
                          > President. That age is 35, and at 42 Teddy Roosevelt was the
                          youngest
                          > president (after McKinley was assassinated; Kennedy was the
                          youngest
                          > *elected* at 43, Clinton the next-youngest at 46). So, When Seregil
                          > is exiled, he is considered to be not-yet 16, pre-consent, which is
                          > why he and his supporters argue so strongly for the ban to be
                          lifted
                          > because he was still a child. He has since come of age and can
                          choose
                          > a talimenios, although he is young to do so, probably around what
                          21
                          > would be in the U.S. But he has not yet reached the age where one
                          > could 'run' for khirnari. Adzriel has, and like Roosevelt or
                          Kennedy,
                          > is a young public servant.
                          >
                          > That's my understanding.
                          >
                          > By the Four, we need a lexicon. Not published and copyright-
                          > infringed, of course ;)
                          >
                          > Becca
                          >
                          > who had a great time out for dinner last night, Lynn, and a greeat
                          > time reading SD, but is quite tired. Do toddlers always wake up at
                          > 6:30? No matter what time their mamas go to bed?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "Addie Underwood"
                          > <VampirSioraf@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > I thought Seregil was 58 in Luck...
                          > >
                          > > As far as not being of age, I read it as he was not "even old
                          > enough to get married or own land" when he was exiled, not when he
                          > met Alec.
                          > >
                          > > How old was he when he was exiled, and how long until he returned
                          > to Aurenen with Alec?
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Addie
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                          > > From: lynn_flewelling
                          > > To: Flewelling@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 6:47 AM
                          > > Subject: [Flewelling] Re: Comming of Age
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Adzriel had only recently become Khirnari when she meets
                          Seregil
                          > at the Palace in SD (?)
                          > > And in Luck, Seregil gives Alec his age, which I think was
                          > somewhere in teh early 60s.
                          > >
                          > > Or at least that's what my faulty memory tells me, without the
                          > books in reach. ;-)
                          > >
                          > > Lynn
                          > >
                          > > --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, Tawariel <tawariel@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Not to second guess the word of the goddess. *g*
                          > > > But it said that Adzriel became kirnari right after she "was
                          > old
                          > > > enough". Taking this to mean her coming of age at (as you
                          say)
                          > > > approximately 55 that would make her kirnari for the last 65
                          > years. But
                          > > > that is longer than Seregil has been exiled, he said to Alec
                          > something
                          > > > about being exiled for "twice your lifetime", so not quite 40
                          > years.
                          > > > Which means I must have mixed up those time lines somewhere.
                          > But where?
                          > > > *puzzled frown*
                          > > >
                          > > > lynn_flewelling schrieb:
                          > > > > Actually, Seregil is of legal age now (I think!). Somewhere
                          > in 50's, but he's still
                          > > considered
                          > > > > quite young (20's in human terms) If Alec wasn't a half
                          > breed, he'd still be jailbait,
                          > > > > though. ;-)
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          >
                        • silverclassics
                          I just have started to reread LitS. Seregil is 58 at the beginning. It could be that coming of age is differently reckoned per person in Aurenen, or there is a
                          Message 12 of 23 , Nov 5, 2007
                            I just have started to reread LitS. Seregil is 58 at the beginning. It
                            could be that coming of age is differently reckoned per person in
                            Aurenen, or there is a coming of age ritual Lynn has not explored
                            where there is only a general minimum age.

                            Becca, I was just reading. Your point five is a good point but one
                            flaw the age of consent varies from state to state. I once looked it
                            up for all the states just out of curiosity. And in some states it's
                            sixteen (like West Virginia or Massachusetts) others it's 18 or 17 or
                            even 13 (found it on wikipedia, there are some caveats and addendums
                            to the 13 year rule)

                            Just 2 cents from a lurker,

                            Cecily
                          • Tawariel
                            13??? In the USA? Wow, I didn t think any land outside of Africa still had a law that made children legal at that age... Tawariel
                            Message 13 of 23 , Nov 5, 2007
                              13??? In the USA?
                              Wow, I didn't think any land outside of Africa still had a law that made
                              children legal at that age...

                              Tawariel

                              silverclassics schrieb:
                              > I just have started to reread LitS. Seregil is 58 at the beginning. It
                              > could be that coming of age is differently reckoned per person in
                              > Aurenen, or there is a coming of age ritual Lynn has not explored
                              > where there is only a general minimum age.
                              >
                              > Becca, I was just reading. Your point five is a good point but one
                              > flaw the age of consent varies from state to state. I once looked it
                              > up for all the states just out of curiosity. And in some states it's
                              > sixteen (like West Virginia or Massachusetts) others it's 18 or 17 or
                              > even 13 (found it on wikipedia, there are some caveats and addendums
                              > to the 13 year rule)
                              >
                              > Just 2 cents from a lurker,
                              >
                              > Cecily
                            • Glass Houses
                              Check out the website ageofconsent.com In some states/nations, the age can vary depending on whether it s homosexual or hetersexual sex. I think Hawaii has
                              Message 14 of 23 , Nov 5, 2007
                                Check out the website ageofconsent.com

                                In some states/nations, the age can vary depending on whether it's homosexual or
                                hetersexual sex. I think Hawaii has the lowest AoC in the US.

                                GH
                                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                Jedi Knights aren't celibate - the thing that
                                is forbidden is attachments - and possessive
                                relationships. --George Lucas





                                ---- On Mon, 5 Nov 2007, Tawariel (tawariel@...) wrote:

                                13??? In the USA?
                                Wow, I didn't think any land outside of Africa still had a law that made
                                children legal at that age...

                                Tawariel

                                silverclassics schrieb:
                                > I just have started to reread LitS. Seregil is 58 at the beginning. It
                                > could be that coming of age is differently reckoned per person in
                                > Aurenen, or there is a coming of age ritual Lynn has not explored
                                > where there is only a general minimum age.
                                >
                                > Becca, I was just reading. Your point five is a good point but one
                                > flaw the age of consent varies from state to state. I once looked it
                                > up for all the states just out of curiosity. And in some states it's
                                > sixteen (like West Virginia or Massachusetts) others it's 18 or 17 or
                                > even 13 (found it on wikipedia, there are some caveats and addendums
                                > to the 13 year rule)
                                >
                                > Just 2 cents from a lurker,
                                >
                                > Cecily




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                              • psionycx
                                It may have been pushed up recently. But I remember a scandal not more than a few years ago where a fundamentalist church group was transporting girls ages
                                Message 15 of 23 , Nov 5, 2007
                                  It may have been pushed up recently. But I remember a scandal not
                                  more than a few years ago where a fundamentalist church group was
                                  transporting girls ages 13-15 to Alabama so that they could be
                                  legally married, often against their will (but not against their
                                  parents').

                                  Prior to the 20th century, and even well into it, Western society had
                                  a very different perception on age than we do today, where people are
                                  often considered "kids" until they've graduated college. But I
                                  remember one old relative who reminisced about how in the 1940's her
                                  mother pushed her to hurry up and marry at 18 or else she'd be "an
                                  old maid sitting on the shelf"! Nowadays most mothers would be
                                  asking their 18 year-old daughters why they're in such a hurry to get
                                  married.

                                  The U.S., having originally been a series of colonies and having been
                                  predominantly agricultural and quite religious, favored a very young
                                  marriageable age. "Age of consent" was not so much of a notion, as
                                  pre-marital sex in general was typically illegal. From a cultural
                                  and religious standpoint, one of the best ways to prevent "sin" was
                                  to marry teenagers off before they got around to doing anything
                                  sinful. This had the added benefit of starting up childbearing at a
                                  younger age.

                                  One of the great ironies is that the actual age in which people in
                                  America lose their virginity has not, in fact, shifted that much
                                  compared to previous centuries, despite contant lamentations of how
                                  young people are when they first have sex. It's only the average age
                                  of marriage that has gone up (by about a decade in the U.S.) compared
                                  to the 19th century.

                                  Likewise notions like drinking age and age of military service have
                                  been subject to upwards change. Teenagers very commonly fought in
                                  wars until very recently (and child soldiers are still common in the
                                  Third World).

                                  In the ancient world this was even more pronounced. Consider that
                                  Alexander the Great held his first regency on behalf of his father
                                  (who was away at war) when he was only 16! How many governments
                                  would put a 16 year-old into a senior position today? Our modern
                                  standards of adulthood have become increasingly inflated in recent
                                  decades, especially as more and more people pursue higher education,
                                  which was rare in earlier times.

                                  Thus Alex being considered an adult at 16 in Skala is not at all
                                  fantasy. In the real world that would have been very normal in both
                                  Antiquity and the Middle Ages, as well as right up until the 20th
                                  century.

                                  --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, Tawariel <tawariel@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > 13??? In the USA?
                                  > Wow, I didn't think any land outside of Africa still had a law that
                                  made
                                  > children legal at that age...
                                  >
                                  > Tawariel
                                  >
                                  > silverclassics schrieb:
                                  > > I just have started to reread LitS. Seregil is 58 at the
                                  beginning. It
                                  > > could be that coming of age is differently reckoned per person in
                                  > > Aurenen, or there is a coming of age ritual Lynn has not explored
                                  > > where there is only a general minimum age.
                                  > >
                                  > > Becca, I was just reading. Your point five is a good point but one
                                  > > flaw the age of consent varies from state to state. I once looked
                                  it
                                  > > up for all the states just out of curiosity. And in some states
                                  it's
                                  > > sixteen (like West Virginia or Massachusetts) others it's 18 or
                                  17 or
                                  > > even 13 (found it on wikipedia, there are some caveats and
                                  addendums
                                  > > to the 13 year rule)
                                  > >
                                  > > Just 2 cents from a lurker,
                                  > >
                                  > > Cecily
                                  >
                                • isanwarrior
                                  We had this thing in Sri Lanka too . . .where parents would arrange matches for their daughters. Even now it s used in rural areas.
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Nov 6, 2007
                                    We had this thing in Sri Lanka too . . .where parents would arrange
                                    matches for their daughters. Even now it's used in rural areas.
                                  • beccablue42
                                    I thought 58 sounded right. Thanks for confirming that! As far as the actual age of consent goes, I know that varies from state to state, let alone country to
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Nov 6, 2007
                                      I thought 58 sounded right. Thanks for confirming that!

                                      As far as the actual age of consent goes, I know that varies from state
                                      to state, let alone country to country. I was simply bringing it up to
                                      illustrate that many societies, my own included, have various ages at
                                      which a person comes of age (some marked by ceremonies or specific
                                      rites, others not. For example, I think you can legally get married at
                                      16 in New York state. In upstate, I'm not at all that odd for marrying
                                      at 22, but down in New York City, I'd be considered quite young for
                                      marrying before 30-- and that's just different 'culture' within one
                                      state). The original post in this thread asked about Adzriel's age when
                                      she became a khirnari and how she was considered "just old enough" to
                                      be a khirnari, and yet she has a good sixty years on Seregil-- and also
                                      asked at what point Seregil went from being considered a child (as he
                                      was at the time of his exile) to being considered an adult. My main
                                      point was actually not so much about the age of consent as it was about
                                      the age at which one can serve in public office, comparing the 35-year-
                                      old requirement for the American Presidency to the age (whatever
                                      particular age it might be) at which an Aurenfae is old enough to serve
                                      on the I'asidra. Again, just to say, there's coming of age and then
                                      there's coming of age.

                                      Becca

                                      --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "silverclassics"
                                      <silverclassics@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I just have started to reread LitS. Seregil is 58 at the beginning. It
                                      > could be that coming of age is differently reckoned per person in
                                      > Aurenen, or there is a coming of age ritual Lynn has not explored
                                      > where there is only a general minimum age.
                                      >
                                      > Becca, I was just reading. Your point five is a good point but one
                                      > flaw the age of consent varies from state to state. I once looked it
                                      > up for all the states just out of curiosity. And in some states it's
                                      > sixteen (like West Virginia or Massachusetts) others it's 18 or 17 or
                                      > even 13 (found it on wikipedia, there are some caveats and addendums
                                      > to the 13 year rule)
                                      >
                                      > Just 2 cents from a lurker,
                                      >
                                      > Cecily
                                      >
                                    • lynn_flewelling
                                      ... I m pretty sure people were prosecuted for that. *snippage* ... That s right, and what I was working from. Thanks! Lynn
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Nov 6, 2007
                                        --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "psionycx" <dsyrek@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > It may have been pushed up recently. But I remember a scandal not
                                        > more than a few years ago where a fundamentalist church group was
                                        > transporting girls ages 13-15 to Alabama so that they could be
                                        > legally married, often against their will (but not against their
                                        > parents').

                                        I'm pretty sure people were prosecuted for that.

                                        *snippage*
                                        > Thus Alex being considered an adult at 16 in Skala is not at all
                                        > fantasy. In the real world that would have been very normal in both
                                        > Antiquity and the Middle Ages, as well as right up until the 20th
                                        > century.

                                        That's right, and what I was working from.

                                        Thanks!

                                        Lynn
                                      • Paula Lieberman
                                        ... From: Tawariel To: Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 3:48 PM Subject: Re: [Flewelling] Re: Comming of Age
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Nov 7, 2007
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "Tawariel" <tawariel@...>
                                          To: <Flewelling@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 3:48 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [Flewelling] Re: Comming of Age


                                          > 13??? In the USA?
                                          > Wow, I didn't think any land outside of Africa still had a law that made
                                          > children legal at that age...

                                          New Hampshire in the second half of the 20th century had an age of consent
                                          that was 12....
                                        • psionycx
                                          Well again, social trends have actually been pushing the age of adulthood upwards, rather than downwards. The defintion of young has changed rather a lot
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Nov 7, 2007
                                            Well again, social trends have actually been pushing the age of
                                            adulthood upwards, rather than downwards. The defintion of "young" has
                                            changed rather a lot and original Colonial era laws are now considered
                                            shocking in retrospect. But in those days it was seen as both moral
                                            and practical, which goes to show how values change.

                                            Like I said before, when Alexander the Great was the same age as Alec
                                            in LitS, he sat as regent while his father was away at war.

                                            Life expectancy plays a role here obviously. As it has risen, so has
                                            the urgency for children to become adults declined. In pre-modern
                                            times higher mortality rates meant that marrying young and starting
                                            families early was critical to ensuring the largest number of
                                            children. Also, the desire to preserve traditional social and
                                            religious values prizing virginity until marriage were best served by
                                            making sure marriage happened as early as possible.

                                            Aurenfaie don't seem to either place great urgency on chastity (Seregil
                                            had a romantic relationship as a youth that everyone knew about), and
                                            they live so long that there's little benefit to rushing their young to
                                            adulthood. When you live four centuries, what's the rush? If anything
                                            it could cause social problems because elder members of society take
                                            longer to die or retire, so if faie were eligible for senior posts at
                                            too young an age there could be tensions.

                                            --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Lieberman" <paal@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ----- Original Message -----
                                            > From: "Tawariel" <tawariel@...>
                                            > To: <Flewelling@yahoogroups.com>
                                            > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 3:48 PM
                                            > Subject: Re: [Flewelling] Re: Comming of Age
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > > 13??? In the USA?
                                            > > Wow, I didn't think any land outside of Africa still had a law that
                                            made
                                            > > children legal at that age...
                                            >
                                            > New Hampshire in the second half of the 20th century had an age of
                                            consent
                                            > that was 12....
                                            >
                                          • margaret mcgee
                                            Hi in the UK it is being suggested that the school leaving age should rise to 18 and most people seem to agree, so i would definetly agree that social trends
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Nov 8, 2007
                                              Hi
                                              in the UK it is being suggested that the school leaving age should rise to 18 and most people seem to agree, so i would definetly agree that social trends are pushing adulthood upwards
                                              margaret

                                              To: Flewelling@yahoogroups.com
                                              From: dsyrek@...
                                              Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 01:45:32 +0000
                                              Subject: [Flewelling] Re: Comming of Age




















                                              Well again, social trends have actually been pushing the age of

                                              adulthood upwards, rather than downwards. The defintion of "young" has

                                              changed rather a lot and original Colonial era laws are now considered

                                              shocking in retrospect. But in those days it was seen as both moral

                                              and practical, which goes to show how values change.



                                              Like I said before, when Alexander the Great was the same age as Alec

                                              in LitS, he sat as regent while his father was away at war.



                                              Life expectancy plays a role here obviously. As it has risen, so has

                                              the urgency for children to become adults declined. In pre-modern

                                              times higher mortality rates meant that marrying young and starting

                                              families early was critical to ensuring the largest number of

                                              children. Also, the desire to preserve traditional social and

                                              religious values prizing virginity until marriage were best served by

                                              making sure marriage happened as early as possible.



                                              Aurenfaie don't seem to either place great urgency on chastity (Seregil

                                              had a romantic relationship as a youth that everyone knew about), and

                                              they live so long that there's little benefit to rushing their young to

                                              adulthood. When you live four centuries, what's the rush? If anything

                                              it could cause social problems because elder members of society take

                                              longer to die or retire, so if faie were eligible for senior posts at

                                              too young an age there could be tensions.



                                              --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Lieberman" <paal@...> wrote:

                                              >

                                              >

                                              > ----- Original Message -----

                                              > From: "Tawariel" <tawariel@...>

                                              > To: <Flewelling@yahoogroups.com>

                                              > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 3:48 PM

                                              > Subject: Re: [Flewelling] Re: Comming of Age

                                              >

                                              >

                                              > > 13??? In the USA?

                                              > > Wow, I didn't think any land outside of Africa still had a law that

                                              made

                                              > > children legal at that age...

                                              >

                                              > New Hampshire in the second half of the 20th century had an age of

                                              consent

                                              > that was 12....

                                              >
























                                              _________________________________________________________________
                                              100�s of Music vouchers to be won with MSN Music
                                              https://www.musicmashup.co.uk

                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • psionycx
                                              I know what you mean. Here in the U.S. as college has gone from optional higher education to more of a normal extension of education, 18 now just means you re
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Nov 8, 2007
                                                I know what you mean. Here in the U.S. as college has gone from
                                                optional higher education to more of a normal extension of education,
                                                18 now just means you're old enough to go to school away from home.
                                                Very few people really regard an 18 year-old as an "adult".

                                                --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, margaret mcgee <margaret5871@...>
                                                wrote:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Hi
                                                > in the UK it is being suggested that the school leaving age should
                                                rise to 18 and most people seem to agree, so i would definetly agree
                                                that social trends are pushing adulthood upwards
                                                > margaret
                                                >
                                                > To: Flewelling@yahoogroups.com
                                                > From: dsyrek@...
                                                > Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 01:45:32 +0000
                                                > Subject: [Flewelling] Re: Comming of Age
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Well again, social trends have actually been pushing
                                                the age of
                                                >
                                                > adulthood upwards, rather than downwards. The defintion of "young"
                                                has
                                                >
                                                > changed rather a lot and original Colonial era laws are now
                                                considered
                                                >
                                                > shocking in retrospect. But in those days it was seen as both
                                                moral
                                                >
                                                > and practical, which goes to show how values change.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Like I said before, when Alexander the Great was the same age as
                                                Alec
                                                >
                                                > in LitS, he sat as regent while his father was away at war.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Life expectancy plays a role here obviously. As it has risen, so
                                                has
                                                >
                                                > the urgency for children to become adults declined. In pre-modern
                                                >
                                                > times higher mortality rates meant that marrying young and starting
                                                >
                                                > families early was critical to ensuring the largest number of
                                                >
                                                > children. Also, the desire to preserve traditional social and
                                                >
                                                > religious values prizing virginity until marriage were best served
                                                by
                                                >
                                                > making sure marriage happened as early as possible.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Aurenfaie don't seem to either place great urgency on chastity
                                                (Seregil
                                                >
                                                > had a romantic relationship as a youth that everyone knew about),
                                                and
                                                >
                                                > they live so long that there's little benefit to rushing their
                                                young to
                                                >
                                                > adulthood. When you live four centuries, what's the rush? If
                                                anything
                                                >
                                                > it could cause social problems because elder members of society
                                                take
                                                >
                                                > longer to die or retire, so if faie were eligible for senior posts
                                                at
                                                >
                                                > too young an age there could be tensions.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Lieberman" <paal@> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                >
                                                > > From: "Tawariel" <tawariel@>
                                                >
                                                > > To: <Flewelling@yahoogroups.com>
                                                >
                                                > > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 3:48 PM
                                                >
                                                > > Subject: Re: [Flewelling] Re: Comming of Age
                                                >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                > > > 13??? In the USA?
                                                >
                                                > > > Wow, I didn't think any land outside of Africa still had a law
                                                that
                                                >
                                                > made
                                                >
                                                > > > children legal at that age...
                                                >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                > > New Hampshire in the second half of the 20th century had an age
                                                of
                                                >
                                                > consent
                                                >
                                                > > that was 12....
                                                >
                                                > >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > _________________________________________________________________
                                                > 100's of Music vouchers to be won with MSN Music
                                                > https://www.musicmashup.co.uk
                                                >
                                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                >
                                              • Dale & Veronica Albers
                                                In Canada 18 means you are an adult. In the time of world war II my father in law came to Canada by himself when he was 14. Can you imagine allowing that now
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Nov 9, 2007
                                                  In Canada 18 means you are an adult. In the time of world war II my father in law came to Canada by himself when he was 14. Can you imagine allowing that now days? I guess kids had to grow up quicker back then.

                                                  Enjoy your day,

                                                  Veronica
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: psionycx
                                                  To: Flewelling@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 11:13 PM
                                                  Subject: [Flewelling] Re: Comming of Age


                                                  I know what you mean. Here in the U.S. as college has gone from
                                                  optional higher education to more of a normal extension of education,
                                                  18 now just means you're old enough to go to school away from home.
                                                  Very few people really regard an 18 year-old as an "adult".

                                                  --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, margaret mcgee <margaret5871@...>
                                                  wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Hi
                                                  > in the UK it is being suggested that the school leaving age should
                                                  rise to 18 and most people seem to agree, so i would definetly agree
                                                  that social trends are pushing adulthood upwards
                                                  > margaret
                                                  >
                                                  > To: Flewelling@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > From: dsyrek@...
                                                  > Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 01:45:32 +0000
                                                  > Subject: [Flewelling] Re: Comming of Age
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Well again, social trends have actually been pushing
                                                  the age of
                                                  >
                                                  > adulthood upwards, rather than downwards. The defintion of "young"
                                                  has
                                                  >
                                                  > changed rather a lot and original Colonial era laws are now
                                                  considered
                                                  >
                                                  > shocking in retrospect. But in those days it was seen as both
                                                  moral
                                                  >
                                                  > and practical, which goes to show how values change.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Like I said before, when Alexander the Great was the same age as
                                                  Alec
                                                  >
                                                  > in LitS, he sat as regent while his father was away at war.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Life expectancy plays a role here obviously. As it has risen, so
                                                  has
                                                  >
                                                  > the urgency for children to become adults declined. In pre-modern
                                                  >
                                                  > times higher mortality rates meant that marrying young and starting
                                                  >
                                                  > families early was critical to ensuring the largest number of
                                                  >
                                                  > children. Also, the desire to preserve traditional social and
                                                  >
                                                  > religious values prizing virginity until marriage were best served
                                                  by
                                                  >
                                                  > making sure marriage happened as early as possible.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Aurenfaie don't seem to either place great urgency on chastity
                                                  (Seregil
                                                  >
                                                  > had a romantic relationship as a youth that everyone knew about),
                                                  and
                                                  >
                                                  > they live so long that there's little benefit to rushing their
                                                  young to
                                                  >
                                                  > adulthood. When you live four centuries, what's the rush? If
                                                  anything
                                                  >
                                                  > it could cause social problems because elder members of society
                                                  take
                                                  >
                                                  > longer to die or retire, so if faie were eligible for senior posts
                                                  at
                                                  >
                                                  > too young an age there could be tensions.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Lieberman" <paal@> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                                  >
                                                  > > From: "Tawariel" <tawariel@>
                                                  >
                                                  > > To: <Flewelling@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  >
                                                  > > Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 3:48 PM
                                                  >
                                                  > > Subject: Re: [Flewelling] Re: Comming of Age
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > > 13??? In the USA?
                                                  >
                                                  > > > Wow, I didn't think any land outside of Africa still had a law
                                                  that
                                                  >
                                                  > made
                                                  >
                                                  > > > children legal at that age...
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  > > New Hampshire in the second half of the 20th century had an age
                                                  of
                                                  >
                                                  > consent
                                                  >
                                                  > > that was 12....
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > __________________________________________________________
                                                  > 100's of Music vouchers to be won with MSN Music
                                                  > https://www.musicmashup.co.uk
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                                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                  >





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