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Re: This Grin Brought To You By Ginsu! But Wait There's More!

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  • beccablue42
    Another thing I really appreciate about the Nightrunner world is that magic isn t easy. So many times in fantasy, magic is a cure-all, and can do anything.
    Message 1 of 18 , Sep 2, 2006
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      Another thing I really appreciate about the Nightrunner world is that
      magic isn't easy. So many times in fantasy, magic is a cure-all, and
      can do anything. There are many instances in Nightrunner/Tamir,
      however, when magic is insufficient for the task at hand: the wizards
      of the Second Oreska are constantly learning things and making
      mistakes in the Tamir triad, Nysander is unable to 'magic in' Seregil
      and Alec during their first journey in LitS, Thero or Nysander will be
      utterly exhausted after using magic, and so on. The fact that
      Nysander's death, while not in vain, does not totally destroy all evil
      makes it more real and poignant. The forces of good and bad--in any
      world--are strong and often evenlly matched. And no one, not even
      magic wizards, has a key that makes it all better. Life is hard in
      Lynn's world as in ours, and I love that the struggles, while
      fantastical, feel real.

      I'll stop before I wax theological, which is really tempting. Or
      before I bash CS Lewis and his "Aslan-is-Jesus;he-can-do-anything"
      scenarios, which is even more tempting. And even Jesus' death doesn't
      eliminate bad things from happening... but see, I'm waxing.

      Becca
      (it's Saturday and I should be writing a sermon, so my theological
      side is showing)




      --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "psionycx" <dsyrek@...> wrote:
      >
      > Well, I think that a large part of it is that the story isn't finished
      > and Balance is never permanent.
      >
      > Things rise and fall over the centuries and right now necromancy is in
      > ascendance whereas the Oreska are at their nadir. The conflict, at the
      > level of the gods, is to shape the world to their vision. Seriamaius
      > obviously wants to spread death and destruction across the whole
      > world. The Four want to stop him. The Helm was an attempt to provide
      > his worshippers with power to tip the scales irrevocably in his favor.
      >
      > Free will also seems to play a key part in the stories. The gods set
      > the stage, but it's up to mortals to settle the matter for good or
      > ill. The willful separation of Aurenan and Skala saw a decline in the
      > number of wizard-born Skalan children, and so the Third Oreska has
      > declined even while the necromancers have grown strong and numerous
      > again. So Aura/Illior is trying to both restore ties between Skalans
      > and Aurenfaie, as well as (it is implied) granting fertility to the
      > human wizards for the first time.
      >
      > Nysander's death (and Idrilain's) serves to show that the game is
      > serious, not a joke. Good isn't assured victory regardless of what
      > happens, and real sacrifices have to be made. The Guardian's portion
      > was "bitter as gall". Nysander knew his duties would cost him his
      > life. Heroically, he did not try to avoid that fate.
      >
      > All of this sets the stage for the story to continue. As Lynn has
      > said, this isn't a trilogy. The story was always meant to continue
      > beyond Traitor's Moon (thankfully). So I think we'll see more of the
      > impact when later books come out.
      >
      >
      > --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "Dick" <rdickison@> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > > Oh I agree, winning the battle but not the war made perfect sense.
      > >
      > > But... I also keep thinking about magic and all acts of magic is
      > > stated in the books to be about balance and it struck me that in this
      > > case Nysander's sacrifice did not seem to lead to balance and
      > > ultimately seemed to create a lack of balance. Equal footing does not
      > > seem to be achieved. That's where I was thinking I either missed
      > > something in my reading or that explanation has not been written yet,
      > > that's all.
      > >
      >
    • Sylvia Hörner
      Might contain Spoilers!!! What I consider really interesting, too, are the different kinds of magic, used by Lynn Flewelling. It s not the usual one fits all
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 2, 2006
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        Might contain Spoilers!!!

        What I consider really interesting, too, are the different kinds of magic, used by Lynn Flewelling.

        It's not the usual "one fits all" magic.

        There's the strong, but in a way very theoretical magic of Arkoniel, who learns and studies really hard, but can never reach the magical level, Lhel or other Retha Noi possesses.
        I don't know, how to express that thought properly, being no native- english- speaker...but I'll try at least.

        Lhel is not afraid of herself,her body, her female sensuality, of the past, of death and the power and magic of the earth.
        She doesn't bow to rules, or borders set by others.
        Besides, she does search for ways, to go- around prophecies, oaths, etc...to save, what and whom she cares for.

        Compared to her,Iya and even Arkoniel seem to be very narrow- minded, with their ways to watch and form the world. They are afraid of many kinds of power- and their reasons often seem ignorant to me.
        Reading the first book, their arrogance made me angry. They don't hesitate to use Retha Noi magic to see their prophecy fulfilled, but they condemn it at the same time.

        What I really like is the way, Arkoniel and the third Oreska seem to find a way to unite all those different kinds and ways of magic, in the end.



        beccablue42 <aeditimi@...> schrieb: Another thing I really appreciate about the Nightrunner world is that
        magic isn't easy. So many times in fantasy, magic is a cure-all, and
        can do anything. There are many instances in Nightrunner/Tamir,
        however, when magic is insufficient for the task at hand: the wizards
        of the Second Oreska are constantly learning things and making
        mistakes in the Tamir triad, Nysander is unable to 'magic in' Seregil
        and Alec during their first journey in LitS, Thero or Nysander will be
        utterly exhausted after using magic, and so on. The fact that
        Nysander's death, while not in vain, does not totally destroy all evil
        makes it more real and poignant. The forces of good and bad--in any
        world--are strong and often evenlly matched. And no one, not even
        magic wizards, has a key that makes it all better. Life is hard in
        Lynn's world as in ours, and I love that the struggles, while
        fantastical, feel real.

        I'll stop before I wax theological, which is really tempting. Or
        before I bash CS Lewis and his "Aslan-is-Jesus;he-can-do-anything"
        scenarios, which is even more tempting. And even Jesus' death doesn't
        eliminate bad things from happening... but see, I'm waxing.

        Becca
        (it's Saturday and I should be writing a sermon, so my theological
        side is showing)

        --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "psionycx" <dsyrek@...> wrote:
        >
        > Well, I think that a large part of it is that the story isn't finished
        > and Balance is never permanent.
        >
        > Things rise and fall over the centuries and right now necromancy is in
        > ascendance whereas the Oreska are at their nadir. The conflict, at the
        > level of the gods, is to shape the world to their vision. Seriamaius
        > obviously wants to spread death and destruction across the whole
        > world. The Four want to stop him. The Helm was an attempt to provide
        > his worshippers with power to tip the scales irrevocably in his favor.
        >
        > Free will also seems to play a key part in the stories. The gods set
        > the stage, but it's up to mortals to settle the matter for good or
        > ill. The willful separation of Aurenan and Skala saw a decline in the
        > number of wizard-born Skalan children, and so the Third Oreska has
        > declined even while the necromancers have grown strong and numerous
        > again. So Aura/Illior is trying to both restore ties between Skalans
        > and Aurenfaie, as well as (it is implied) granting fertility to the
        > human wizards for the first time.
        >
        > Nysander's death (and Idrilain's) serves to show that the game is
        > serious, not a joke. Good isn't assured victory regardless of what
        > happens, and real sacrifices have to be made. The Guardian's portion
        > was "bitter as gall". Nysander knew his duties would cost him his
        > life. Heroically, he did not try to avoid that fate.
        >
        > All of this sets the stage for the story to continue. As Lynn has
        > said, this isn't a trilogy. The story was always meant to continue
        > beyond Traitor's Moon (thankfully). So I think we'll see more of the
        > impact when later books come out.
        >
        >
        > --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "Dick" <rdickison@> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Oh I agree, winning the battle but not the war made perfect sense.
        > >
        > > But... I also keep thinking about magic and all acts of magic is
        > > stated in the books to be about balance and it struck me that in this
        > > case Nysander's sacrifice did not seem to lead to balance and
        > > ultimately seemed to create a lack of balance. Equal footing does not
        > > seem to be achieved. That's where I was thinking I either missed
        > > something in my reading or that explanation has not been written yet,
        > > that's all.
        > >
        >






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      • psionycx
        One thing I really liked was that Lynn avoided the Golden Age syndrome common in many fantasy settings wherein the great days of magic are in the past and
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 2, 2006
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          One thing I really liked was that Lynn avoided the "Golden Age"
          syndrome common in many fantasy settings wherein the great days of
          magic are in the past and the present day is just a pale
          reflection. Iya and Arkoniel are in a historical time when a lot of
          the magics casually employed by Nysander centuries later are either
          very new or haven't been developed yet. Arkoniel is a young wizard
          coming to terms with just how much he (and the other Oreska) doesn't
          know, and that is part of what drives them to abandon the free
          wizard model and unify into the Third Oreska to build a body of
          magical knowledge.

          In a way Iya and Arkoniel in the Tamir novels ARE a little ignorant,
          because in their time wizards pass knowledge solely from master to
          apprentice, so if your master didn't know something odds are you
          don't either. This contrasts them to the Retha Noi who have a
          culture about magic.

          But by the same token they are capable of innovation, and this would
          lead to greater sorceries in later years, such as the carving of the
          Cirna Canal, something it's not clear the Retha Noi could accomplish
          even if they'd wanted to, given the more spiritual focus of their
          magic. Oreska magic seems to lend itself to application in the
          physical world, rather than the spiritual. Hence Arkoniel is able
          to extrapolate his translocation spell from Lhel's "window" spell.
          But because Retha Noi magic does skirt the boundaries of necromancy,
          Oreska wizards steer clear of a lot of it.

          It is funny how adamant they are in this era about Illior though.
          Lhel refuses to believe that her moon goddess is the same as
          Arkoniel's god (whom he considers to be male). But we know from
          Seregil's theological ramblings that by his time Illior is
          considered to be both male and female. And based on the way the god
          (dess) sets the Retha Noi to helping the Skalans there's little
          question it's the same deity seen through different religious
          viewpoints.

          One thing Lynn has done very well is build a world wherein magic
          doesn't fit neatly into one pattern. Oreska, Retha Noi,
          necromancers and even the different clans of the Aurenfaie have
          distinct magical traditions. This really allows for a lot of
          interesting stuff and makes the characters a lot less
          interchangeable.
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