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Re: This Grin Brought To You By Ginsu! But Wait There's More!

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  • lynn_flewelling
    Thanks! I couldn t have said it better myself. You got it exactly right. Lynn
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 31, 2006
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      Thanks! I couldn't have said it better myself. You got it exactly right.

      Lynn

      --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "psionycx" <dsyrek@...> wrote:
      >
      > You know, one review I read of Traitor's Moon commented on how great
      > it was that evil hadn't been simply defeated when the heroes won in
      > the last novel.
      >
      > The threat of Plenimar was not all bound up in the helmet. The helmet
      > would have simply turned Mardus into an avatar of his god and given
      > him the power to slaughter anyone in his path. It was kind of like a
      > nuclear weapon in modern terms.
      >
      > But just because an enemy force doesn't have a nuke doesn't mean that
      > they're not still dangerous. It was a loss for both sides, as the
      > Four sacrificed Nysander to neutralize the Helm. Nysander's loss does
      > have a ripple effect because without him the Oreska wizards are not as
      > prepared to fight effectively against the necromancers of Plenimar. It
      > was understanding this truth that pushed Irdilain to send her daughter
      > and company to Aurenan.
      >
      > Had Nysander been able to destroy the Helm and survive, then Skala's
      > magical response to Plenimaran necromancy would be much better
      > organized. Magyana herself felt overwhelmed and knew that she was not
      > suited to take Nysander's place in such a conflict despite her skill
      > and power. Nysander would also have been better able to manage Phoria.
      >
      > So it's all part of chain of larger story events, much like Phoria's
      > willful disregard of anything contrary to her cavalry-oriented war
      > strategy. The loss of Nysander and Idrilain has put Skala on the
      > defensive. Unless something changes (in forthcoming novels) they will
      > be in big trouble.
      >
      > --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, Tawariel <tawariel@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hm, I always thought that the necromancers were pretty powerful
      > before
      > > the helmet thing already. If the helmet of Sariamaeus (sp?) had been
      > > reassembled, the power of them would have gotten even bigger. But
      > > destroying it didn't destroy all necromancy in Plenimar.
      > >
      > > Tawariel
      > >
      >
    • beccablue42
      Another thing I really appreciate about the Nightrunner world is that magic isn t easy. So many times in fantasy, magic is a cure-all, and can do anything.
      Message 2 of 18 , Sep 2, 2006
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        Another thing I really appreciate about the Nightrunner world is that
        magic isn't easy. So many times in fantasy, magic is a cure-all, and
        can do anything. There are many instances in Nightrunner/Tamir,
        however, when magic is insufficient for the task at hand: the wizards
        of the Second Oreska are constantly learning things and making
        mistakes in the Tamir triad, Nysander is unable to 'magic in' Seregil
        and Alec during their first journey in LitS, Thero or Nysander will be
        utterly exhausted after using magic, and so on. The fact that
        Nysander's death, while not in vain, does not totally destroy all evil
        makes it more real and poignant. The forces of good and bad--in any
        world--are strong and often evenlly matched. And no one, not even
        magic wizards, has a key that makes it all better. Life is hard in
        Lynn's world as in ours, and I love that the struggles, while
        fantastical, feel real.

        I'll stop before I wax theological, which is really tempting. Or
        before I bash CS Lewis and his "Aslan-is-Jesus;he-can-do-anything"
        scenarios, which is even more tempting. And even Jesus' death doesn't
        eliminate bad things from happening... but see, I'm waxing.

        Becca
        (it's Saturday and I should be writing a sermon, so my theological
        side is showing)




        --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "psionycx" <dsyrek@...> wrote:
        >
        > Well, I think that a large part of it is that the story isn't finished
        > and Balance is never permanent.
        >
        > Things rise and fall over the centuries and right now necromancy is in
        > ascendance whereas the Oreska are at their nadir. The conflict, at the
        > level of the gods, is to shape the world to their vision. Seriamaius
        > obviously wants to spread death and destruction across the whole
        > world. The Four want to stop him. The Helm was an attempt to provide
        > his worshippers with power to tip the scales irrevocably in his favor.
        >
        > Free will also seems to play a key part in the stories. The gods set
        > the stage, but it's up to mortals to settle the matter for good or
        > ill. The willful separation of Aurenan and Skala saw a decline in the
        > number of wizard-born Skalan children, and so the Third Oreska has
        > declined even while the necromancers have grown strong and numerous
        > again. So Aura/Illior is trying to both restore ties between Skalans
        > and Aurenfaie, as well as (it is implied) granting fertility to the
        > human wizards for the first time.
        >
        > Nysander's death (and Idrilain's) serves to show that the game is
        > serious, not a joke. Good isn't assured victory regardless of what
        > happens, and real sacrifices have to be made. The Guardian's portion
        > was "bitter as gall". Nysander knew his duties would cost him his
        > life. Heroically, he did not try to avoid that fate.
        >
        > All of this sets the stage for the story to continue. As Lynn has
        > said, this isn't a trilogy. The story was always meant to continue
        > beyond Traitor's Moon (thankfully). So I think we'll see more of the
        > impact when later books come out.
        >
        >
        > --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "Dick" <rdickison@> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > > Oh I agree, winning the battle but not the war made perfect sense.
        > >
        > > But... I also keep thinking about magic and all acts of magic is
        > > stated in the books to be about balance and it struck me that in this
        > > case Nysander's sacrifice did not seem to lead to balance and
        > > ultimately seemed to create a lack of balance. Equal footing does not
        > > seem to be achieved. That's where I was thinking I either missed
        > > something in my reading or that explanation has not been written yet,
        > > that's all.
        > >
        >
      • Sylvia Hörner
        Might contain Spoilers!!! What I consider really interesting, too, are the different kinds of magic, used by Lynn Flewelling. It s not the usual one fits all
        Message 3 of 18 , Sep 2, 2006
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          Might contain Spoilers!!!

          What I consider really interesting, too, are the different kinds of magic, used by Lynn Flewelling.

          It's not the usual "one fits all" magic.

          There's the strong, but in a way very theoretical magic of Arkoniel, who learns and studies really hard, but can never reach the magical level, Lhel or other Retha Noi possesses.
          I don't know, how to express that thought properly, being no native- english- speaker...but I'll try at least.

          Lhel is not afraid of herself,her body, her female sensuality, of the past, of death and the power and magic of the earth.
          She doesn't bow to rules, or borders set by others.
          Besides, she does search for ways, to go- around prophecies, oaths, etc...to save, what and whom she cares for.

          Compared to her,Iya and even Arkoniel seem to be very narrow- minded, with their ways to watch and form the world. They are afraid of many kinds of power- and their reasons often seem ignorant to me.
          Reading the first book, their arrogance made me angry. They don't hesitate to use Retha Noi magic to see their prophecy fulfilled, but they condemn it at the same time.

          What I really like is the way, Arkoniel and the third Oreska seem to find a way to unite all those different kinds and ways of magic, in the end.



          beccablue42 <aeditimi@...> schrieb: Another thing I really appreciate about the Nightrunner world is that
          magic isn't easy. So many times in fantasy, magic is a cure-all, and
          can do anything. There are many instances in Nightrunner/Tamir,
          however, when magic is insufficient for the task at hand: the wizards
          of the Second Oreska are constantly learning things and making
          mistakes in the Tamir triad, Nysander is unable to 'magic in' Seregil
          and Alec during their first journey in LitS, Thero or Nysander will be
          utterly exhausted after using magic, and so on. The fact that
          Nysander's death, while not in vain, does not totally destroy all evil
          makes it more real and poignant. The forces of good and bad--in any
          world--are strong and often evenlly matched. And no one, not even
          magic wizards, has a key that makes it all better. Life is hard in
          Lynn's world as in ours, and I love that the struggles, while
          fantastical, feel real.

          I'll stop before I wax theological, which is really tempting. Or
          before I bash CS Lewis and his "Aslan-is-Jesus;he-can-do-anything"
          scenarios, which is even more tempting. And even Jesus' death doesn't
          eliminate bad things from happening... but see, I'm waxing.

          Becca
          (it's Saturday and I should be writing a sermon, so my theological
          side is showing)

          --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "psionycx" <dsyrek@...> wrote:
          >
          > Well, I think that a large part of it is that the story isn't finished
          > and Balance is never permanent.
          >
          > Things rise and fall over the centuries and right now necromancy is in
          > ascendance whereas the Oreska are at their nadir. The conflict, at the
          > level of the gods, is to shape the world to their vision. Seriamaius
          > obviously wants to spread death and destruction across the whole
          > world. The Four want to stop him. The Helm was an attempt to provide
          > his worshippers with power to tip the scales irrevocably in his favor.
          >
          > Free will also seems to play a key part in the stories. The gods set
          > the stage, but it's up to mortals to settle the matter for good or
          > ill. The willful separation of Aurenan and Skala saw a decline in the
          > number of wizard-born Skalan children, and so the Third Oreska has
          > declined even while the necromancers have grown strong and numerous
          > again. So Aura/Illior is trying to both restore ties between Skalans
          > and Aurenfaie, as well as (it is implied) granting fertility to the
          > human wizards for the first time.
          >
          > Nysander's death (and Idrilain's) serves to show that the game is
          > serious, not a joke. Good isn't assured victory regardless of what
          > happens, and real sacrifices have to be made. The Guardian's portion
          > was "bitter as gall". Nysander knew his duties would cost him his
          > life. Heroically, he did not try to avoid that fate.
          >
          > All of this sets the stage for the story to continue. As Lynn has
          > said, this isn't a trilogy. The story was always meant to continue
          > beyond Traitor's Moon (thankfully). So I think we'll see more of the
          > impact when later books come out.
          >
          >
          > --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "Dick" <rdickison@> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > Oh I agree, winning the battle but not the war made perfect sense.
          > >
          > > But... I also keep thinking about magic and all acts of magic is
          > > stated in the books to be about balance and it struck me that in this
          > > case Nysander's sacrifice did not seem to lead to balance and
          > > ultimately seemed to create a lack of balance. Equal footing does not
          > > seem to be achieved. That's where I was thinking I either missed
          > > something in my reading or that explanation has not been written yet,
          > > that's all.
          > >
          >






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        • psionycx
          One thing I really liked was that Lynn avoided the Golden Age syndrome common in many fantasy settings wherein the great days of magic are in the past and
          Message 4 of 18 , Sep 2, 2006
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            One thing I really liked was that Lynn avoided the "Golden Age"
            syndrome common in many fantasy settings wherein the great days of
            magic are in the past and the present day is just a pale
            reflection. Iya and Arkoniel are in a historical time when a lot of
            the magics casually employed by Nysander centuries later are either
            very new or haven't been developed yet. Arkoniel is a young wizard
            coming to terms with just how much he (and the other Oreska) doesn't
            know, and that is part of what drives them to abandon the free
            wizard model and unify into the Third Oreska to build a body of
            magical knowledge.

            In a way Iya and Arkoniel in the Tamir novels ARE a little ignorant,
            because in their time wizards pass knowledge solely from master to
            apprentice, so if your master didn't know something odds are you
            don't either. This contrasts them to the Retha Noi who have a
            culture about magic.

            But by the same token they are capable of innovation, and this would
            lead to greater sorceries in later years, such as the carving of the
            Cirna Canal, something it's not clear the Retha Noi could accomplish
            even if they'd wanted to, given the more spiritual focus of their
            magic. Oreska magic seems to lend itself to application in the
            physical world, rather than the spiritual. Hence Arkoniel is able
            to extrapolate his translocation spell from Lhel's "window" spell.
            But because Retha Noi magic does skirt the boundaries of necromancy,
            Oreska wizards steer clear of a lot of it.

            It is funny how adamant they are in this era about Illior though.
            Lhel refuses to believe that her moon goddess is the same as
            Arkoniel's god (whom he considers to be male). But we know from
            Seregil's theological ramblings that by his time Illior is
            considered to be both male and female. And based on the way the god
            (dess) sets the Retha Noi to helping the Skalans there's little
            question it's the same deity seen through different religious
            viewpoints.

            One thing Lynn has done very well is build a world wherein magic
            doesn't fit neatly into one pattern. Oreska, Retha Noi,
            necromancers and even the different clans of the Aurenfaie have
            distinct magical traditions. This really allows for a lot of
            interesting stuff and makes the characters a lot less
            interchangeable.
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