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Agonising over Tamir book III

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  • nightwwolf
    This is a very pointless rant, but I think you guys here can understand what a torture it is waiting for book III to come out! I just read the first two books
    Message 1 of 25 , Apr 19, 2005
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      This is a very pointless rant, but I think you guys here can
      understand what a torture it is waiting for book III to come out! I
      just read the first two books again for the umpteenth-squared time,
      and I'm considering just locking them up and forgetting them because
      it's killing me just waiting for the third one to be published. I've
      read a pretty good range of fantasy over the past 7 years, but Ms
      Flewelling's Tamir books are one of the very very few I absolutely
      have to reread every other month or so. I've reread the Nightrunners a
      few times too, but, I don't know, maybe because there isn't a central
      female character, I don't really connect to or like the series as much
      as the Tamir books.

      Anyway, I would like to ask if anyone has any fantasy authors/series
      to recommend to me. I've pretty much read all the big authors
      (Eddings, Martin, Feist, Lackey, le Guin etc) and I'm looking for
      lesser known
      but quality authors like Ms Flewelling. I'm currently quite interested
      in female fantasy writers with central female characters, but rather
      unfortunately, the few I've looked into so far have had a distressing
      tendency to veer off into romance masked with a thin veil of fantasy
      plot.

      So, I'd be really grateful if anyone can suggest something to read to
      while away the time before Tamir III finally comes out. Thanks!

      Cheers,
      wwolf
    • Jennifer Parker
      The Tamir series is my favorite by far of Mrs. Flewelling s works. I love NR I lot, but it just can t compete with Tamir for me. I think it s the darkness of
      Message 2 of 25 , Apr 19, 2005
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        The Tamir series is my favorite by far of Mrs.
        Flewelling's works. I love NR I lot, but it just can't
        compete with Tamir for me. I think it's the "darkness"
        of the Tamir series that really drew me in to begin
        with. What can I say, I love tortured characters, and
        Tobin definately has her/his problems. Then there was
        Brother. I simply loved Brother so very much and the
        relationship Tobin has with him. Probably my most
        enjoyed moments in the books was when Tobin and Ki
        were at the castle. It's all that everyday routine
        stuff that I find to be the most enjoyable to read
        about because it gives me a chance to kind of engross
        myself in their actual normal life. The plot's
        important and everything, and I know the book has to
        get back to it eventually.... but I definately enjoyed
        all the moments where there was a pause and I could
        watch the characters interact in a normal, everyday
        setting.

        ::cough:: Anyway... Looking for books with strong
        female characters? Hmm....

        You probably already know Kristen Britain, but I'll
        rec. her anyway. Her books: Green Rider and Rider's
        Call have awesome female characters.

        Also the Sevenwaters Trilogy by Juliet Marillier is
        excellent.

        These are kind of for younger age groups, but I love
        them all the same: Sabriel, Liriel, and Abhorsen by
        Garth Nix.

        Oh, and The Dark Materials books by Philip Pullman.
        Definately a good series. :)

        Anyway, hope one of these might help.

        --- nightwwolf <nightwwolf@...> wrote:
        >
        > This is a very pointless rant, but I think you guys
        > here can
        > understand what a torture it is waiting for book III
        > to come out! I
        > just read the first two books again for the
        > umpteenth-squared time,
        > and I'm considering just locking them up and
        > forgetting them because
        > it's killing me just waiting for the third one to be
        > published. I've
        > read a pretty good range of fantasy over the past 7
        > years, but Ms
        > Flewelling's Tamir books are one of the very very
        > few I absolutely
        > have to reread every other month or so. I've reread
        > the Nightrunners a
        > few times too, but, I don't know, maybe because
        > there isn't a central
        > female character, I don't really connect to or like
        > the series as much
        > as the Tamir books.
        >
        > Anyway, I would like to ask if anyone has any
        > fantasy authors/series
        > to recommend to me. I've pretty much read all the
        > big authors
        > (Eddings, Martin, Feist, Lackey, le Guin etc) and
        > I'm looking for
        > lesser known
        > but quality authors like Ms Flewelling. I'm
        > currently quite interested
        > in female fantasy writers with central female
        > characters, but rather
        > unfortunately, the few I've looked into so far have
        > had a distressing
        > tendency to veer off into romance masked with a thin
        > veil of fantasy
        > plot.
        >
        > So, I'd be really grateful if anyone can suggest
        > something to read to
        > while away the time before Tamir III finally comes
        > out. Thanks!
        >
        > Cheers,
        > wwolf
        >
        >
        >
        >



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      • Paula Lieberman
        ... From: nightwwolf ... Godstalk, Dark of the Moon, and Seeker s Mask, by P. C. Hodgell, also the collection Blood & Ivory, the
        Message 3 of 25 , Apr 19, 2005
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "nightwwolf" <nightwwolf@...>


          >
          > This is a very pointless rant, but I think you guys here can
          > understand what a torture it is waiting for book III to come out! I
          > just read the first two books again for the umpteenth-squared time,
          > and I'm considering just locking them up and forgetting them because
          > it's killing me just waiting for the third one to be published. I've
          > read a pretty good range of fantasy over the past 7 years, but Ms
          > Flewelling's Tamir books are one of the very very few I absolutely
          > have to reread every other month or so. I've reread the Nightrunners a
          > few times too, but, I don't know, maybe because there isn't a central
          > female character, I don't really connect to or like the series as much
          > as the Tamir books.
          >
          > Anyway, I would like to ask if anyone has any fantasy authors/series
          > to recommend to me. I've pretty much read all the big authors
          > (Eddings, Martin, Feist, Lackey, le Guin etc) and I'm looking for
          > lesser known
          > but quality authors like Ms Flewelling. I'm currently quite interested
          > in female fantasy writers with central female characters, but rather

          Godstalk, Dark of the Moon, and Seeker's Mask, by P. C. Hodgell, also the
          collection Blood & Ivory, the Meisha Merlin edition, NOT the Hypatia edition
          (the Meisha Merlin edition has added material). No romance for Jame so
          far...

          Halfway between fantasy and science fiction and probably long out of print--
          The Ozark Trilogy, by Suzette Haden Elgin, consisting of Twelve Fair
          Kingdoms, The Gand Jubilee, and And Then There'll Be Fireworks. It has
          Granny Magic, and Magicians of Ranks, and Responsible of Brightwater who
          with the name Responsible, is Responsible--for the whole planet!

          Can't remember the book names, but the Alix stories by Joanna Russ, written
          before she wrote the iconoclastic feminist Sf novel _When It Changed_,
          which was a watershed in the field, but anticipating various things.

          Going back even farther, the Jirel of Joiry stories by C. L. Moore.

          What else... my memory is now up to speed at the moment, there are whole
          bunches that I can't think of right now....

          There's a lot of YA fantasy--The Rescue of Ranor, if you can find it (ask at
          a library). Yeah, there's signs of romance, but nobody gets gooey/mushy
          over it.... a white witch by the name of Minna lives in the land of Magic
          not far from the border with Science, intentionally distant from everyone
          one, when a boy comes knocking at her door with a Quest. She does NOT want
          to go along with it. She doesn't have a choice, though.... And it doesn't
          help the the boy came from the other side of the boundary and is
          anti-magical, put him next to something magic and it stops working... this
          ones' a book with a lot of humor in it.

          There are Tamora Pierce's novels, actually the Circle of Magic/The Circle
          Opens novels (each set has four books, and they're very much available) are
          my favorites. She's got several other sets of books out.

          Cherry Wilder wrote a several novels, include A Princess of the Chameln, and
          Yorath the Wolf. She was working again on the series, Katya Riemann
          finished what de facto I believe is the last book in the series.

          There are Katya Riemann's books, which I am trying to think of the names of.
          Duh.... trilogy, and none of the names are coming to my mind at the moment.
          The focus character of most of the trilogy is a young woman who is a twin.

          In a more contemporary vein, in a somewhat alterante world is _Dead Witch
          Walking_ and the sequel to it, by someone whose name is escaping me at the
          moment...

          What else--oh, Martha Wells' novels, including _Wheel of the Infinite_,
          which has something of the feel of Lois McMaster Bujold's Curse of Chalion
          about it. City of Bones however has a male protagonist focus and is a
          rather odd book anyway.

          There are Michelle West's novels, the protagonist of _Hunter's Oath_ is
          male, but in _Hunter's Death_ the cast expands out to a greater ensemble,
          including Jewel who starts off as the teenaged head of a den of young street
          thieves, and seeking help for a gravely injured member of her den winds up
          moving from slum to inside one of the Ten greatest noble Houses in the
          capital city she was born in and had lived all her life. The Sun Sword
          series of books picks up later in the same universe, growing the cast of
          characters even further. There's Kiriel, of dark ancestry, there's the
          Flower of the Dominion, whose beauty leads to first a marriage her family
          would not have preferred to her, and then tragedy assails her. There's the
          aKalakar, warrior head of House Kalakar, and the Tefafin, born Amaris
          Handernesse, head of House Terafin (both women are in Hunter's Death I
          think). There's Siobhan who was head of the Bard Guild back in Hunter;s
          Death, and the women who effective was head of the Mage Guild. There's the
          mage who possibly is the most powerful human mage in the history of that
          world, but who's insane. There are the Matriarchs of the Voyanne, whose
          antecedents become clear in the fourth of so novel in the Sun Sword series,
          Sea of Sorrows. There are appearances by Ariane, the Winter Queen. There
          are also three narcissistic very large quarrelsome stone cats with wings,
          which intrude themselves into the life of a woman who -hates- cats.
          There's the Serra Alina, sent as a hostage by the brother who saw it an
          expedient solution, the Princess Royale of Averalan who occupies a ambiguous
          position the court of the Twin Kings (her half-brother is also her uncle,
          and that's hardly the oddest relationship involved in the royal families),
          there;s Serra Teresa the aunt of the Flower of the Dominion, who was not
          allowed by her family to marry. There are other women, also--there's a huge
          cast of characters, aand the good news about the books being mass market
          paperbacks is that 700 to 900 page mass market paperbacks are NOT
          footbreaker-mass books!

          The novel The Sun Sword does finish off the series the Sun Sword, concluding
          various plot lines of the series. It doesn't conclude other plotlines,
          which are being worked on by the author with the series House War, which the
          author originally expected to be one book but is going to be more than than,
          and then the End of Days series.

          Given that there are -thousands- of pages among Hunter's Oath, Hunter's
          Death, and the novels of The Sun Sword (can't remember all the times, they
          include Sea of Sorrows, The Riven Shield, The Sun Sword, The Shining Court,
          and the first two, are they, which I can't remember the names of at the
          moment --oops, the first is The Broken Crown. Now it's only the second
          book in the series, I think, that I can't remember the name of.), there's
          lots of reading and a very wide tapestry involved. In one of the books,
          Evayne (one of the major characters in the books, and one whom i should have
          thought of before this) either is thrown back in time or has a flashback to
          being through back in time, thousands of years in ancient evil Vexusa to
          witness the horrific death of one who fought against Vexusa's evil
          overlord--Evayne's path is unique she's tossed about in Time and never knows
          where or when she's being sent, her past and future for her are linear, but
          cut back and forth across the pasts and futures of the other people she
          interacts with, so that from one appearance of her to another, she might
          appear to be older, or younger, the the previous visit.


          Anyway, I think that's probably enough suggestions from me for a while!

          > unfortunately, the few I've looked into so far have had a distressing
          > tendency to veer off into romance masked with a thin veil of fantasy
          > plot.
          >
          > So, I'd be really grateful if anyone can suggest something to read to
          > while away the time before Tamir III finally comes out. Thanks!
        • queenlyzzie04
          I understand exactly how you feel, I ve discovered some rather amazing stories while waiting for the next NR book to come out!! Some that have a strong female
          Message 4 of 25 , Apr 20, 2005
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            I understand exactly how you feel, I've discovered some rather
            amazing stories while waiting for the next NR book to come out!! Some
            that have a strong female lead is the Sevenwaters trilogy by Juliet
            Marillier(Daughter of the forest, Son of the Shadows, and Child of
            Prophecy), The Kushiel trilogy by Jaqueline Carey(Kushiel's Dart,
            Kushiel's Chosen, and Kushiel's Avatar), and the Black Jewels Trilogy
            by Anne Bishop. Wreaththu by Storm Constantine is fast becoming a
            favorite.It doesn't have a female lead exactly (its about a race of
            hermaphrodites) but if you can get into it you won't want to put it
            down. There is the original three and she just finished a second
            trilogy based on the original three. At first I was hesitant but once
            I passed the first few chapters I was hooked!!! The characters are
            fascinating because they have feminine and masculine traits and of
            course it maked for interesting relationships. I don't know how to
            give it enough praise without spoilers so you'll just have to take my
            word for it and read it! The Kushiel trilogy is pretty racy, the
            horoine is a servant of Namaah, one of the gods they wordhip in her
            country, which translates into somewhat of a holy prostitute(???).
            But while there are many of these in the land what makes our heroine
            special is that she takes pleasure from pain, so you can just imagine
            what kind of situations she finds herself in! The surprise in this
            story is that she is also a trained spy and will do much for her
            country so there is a sophisticated plot involved. So whichever you
            decide on, let me know what you thought of it...






            --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Lieberman" <paal@g...>
            wrote:
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "nightwwolf" <nightwwolf@y...>
            >
            >
            > >
            > > This is a very pointless rant, but I think you guys here can
            > > understand what a torture it is waiting for book III to come out!
            I
            > > just read the first two books again for the umpteenth-squared
            time,
            > > and I'm considering just locking them up and forgetting them
            because
            > > it's killing me just waiting for the third one to be published.
            I've
            > > read a pretty good range of fantasy over the past 7 years, but Ms
            > > Flewelling's Tamir books are one of the very very few I absolutely
            > > have to reread every other month or so. I've reread the
            Nightrunners a
            > > few times too, but, I don't know, maybe because there isn't a
            central
            > > female character, I don't really connect to or like the series as
            much
            > > as the Tamir books.
            > >
            > > Anyway, I would like to ask if anyone has any fantasy
            authors/series
            > > to recommend to me. I've pretty much read all the big authors
            > > (Eddings, Martin, Feist, Lackey, le Guin etc) and I'm looking for
            > > lesser known
            > > but quality authors like Ms Flewelling. I'm currently quite
            interested
            > > in female fantasy writers with central female characters, but
            rather
            >
            > Godstalk, Dark of the Moon, and Seeker's Mask, by P. C. Hodgell,
            also the
            > collection Blood & Ivory, the Meisha Merlin edition, NOT the
            Hypatia edition
            > (the Meisha Merlin edition has added material). No romance for
            Jame so
            > far...
            >
            > Halfway between fantasy and science fiction and probably long out
            of print--
            > The Ozark Trilogy, by Suzette Haden Elgin, consisting of Twelve Fair
            > Kingdoms, The Gand Jubilee, and And Then There'll Be Fireworks. It
            has
            > Granny Magic, and Magicians of Ranks, and Responsible of
            Brightwater who
            > with the name Responsible, is Responsible--for the whole planet!
            >
            > Can't remember the book names, but the Alix stories by Joanna
            Russ, written
            > before she wrote the iconoclastic feminist Sf novel _When It
            Changed_,
            > which was a watershed in the field, but anticipating various things.
            >
            > Going back even farther, the Jirel of Joiry stories by C. L. Moore.
            >
            > What else... my memory is now up to speed at the moment, there are
            whole
            > bunches that I can't think of right now....
            >
            > There's a lot of YA fantasy--The Rescue of Ranor, if you can find
            it (ask at
            > a library). Yeah, there's signs of romance, but nobody gets
            gooey/mushy
            > over it.... a white witch by the name of Minna lives in the land
            of Magic
            > not far from the border with Science, intentionally distant from
            everyone
            > one, when a boy comes knocking at her door with a Quest. She does
            NOT want
            > to go along with it. She doesn't have a choice, though.... And it
            doesn't
            > help the the boy came from the other side of the boundary and is
            > anti-magical, put him next to something magic and it stops
            working... this
            > ones' a book with a lot of humor in it.
            >
            > There are Tamora Pierce's novels, actually the Circle of Magic/The
            Circle
            > Opens novels (each set has four books, and they're very much
            available) are
            > my favorites. She's got several other sets of books out.
            >
            > Cherry Wilder wrote a several novels, include A Princess of the
            Chameln, and
            > Yorath the Wolf. She was working again on the series, Katya
            Riemann
            > finished what de facto I believe is the last book in the series.
            >
            > There are Katya Riemann's books, which I am trying to think of the
            names of.
            > Duh.... trilogy, and none of the names are coming to my mind at the
            moment.
            > The focus character of most of the trilogy is a young woman who is
            a twin.
            >
            > In a more contemporary vein, in a somewhat alterante world is _Dead
            Witch
            > Walking_ and the sequel to it, by someone whose name is escaping me
            at the
            > moment...
            >
            > What else--oh, Martha Wells' novels, including _Wheel of the
            Infinite_,
            > which has something of the feel of Lois McMaster Bujold's Curse of
            Chalion
            > about it. City of Bones however has a male protagonist focus and
            is a
            > rather odd book anyway.
            >
            > There are Michelle West's novels, the protagonist of _Hunter's
            Oath_ is
            > male, but in _Hunter's Death_ the cast expands out to a greater
            ensemble,
            > including Jewel who starts off as the teenaged head of a den of
            young street
            > thieves, and seeking help for a gravely injured member of her den
            winds up
            > moving from slum to inside one of the Ten greatest noble Houses in
            the
            > capital city she was born in and had lived all her life. The Sun
            Sword
            > series of books picks up later in the same universe, growing the
            cast of
            > characters even further. There's Kiriel, of dark ancestry, there's
            the
            > Flower of the Dominion, whose beauty leads to first a marriage her
            family
            > would not have preferred to her, and then tragedy assails her.
            There's the
            > aKalakar, warrior head of House Kalakar, and the Tefafin, born
            Amaris
            > Handernesse, head of House Terafin (both women are in Hunter's
            Death I
            > think). There's Siobhan who was head of the Bard Guild back in
            Hunter;s
            > Death, and the women who effective was head of the Mage Guild.
            There's the
            > mage who possibly is the most powerful human mage in the history of
            that
            > world, but who's insane. There are the Matriarchs of the Voyanne,
            whose
            > antecedents become clear in the fourth of so novel in the Sun Sword
            series,
            > Sea of Sorrows. There are appearances by Ariane, the Winter
            Queen. There
            > are also three narcissistic very large quarrelsome stone cats with
            wings,
            > which intrude themselves into the life of a woman who -hates- cats.
            > There's the Serra Alina, sent as a hostage by the brother who saw
            it an
            > expedient solution, the Princess Royale of Averalan who occupies a
            ambiguous
            > position the court of the Twin Kings (her half-brother is also her
            uncle,
            > and that's hardly the oddest relationship involved in the royal
            families),
            > there;s Serra Teresa the aunt of the Flower of the Dominion, who
            was not
            > allowed by her family to marry. There are other women, also--
            there's a huge
            > cast of characters, aand the good news about the books being mass
            market
            > paperbacks is that 700 to 900 page mass market paperbacks are NOT
            > footbreaker-mass books!
            >
            > The novel The Sun Sword does finish off the series the Sun Sword,
            concluding
            > various plot lines of the series. It doesn't conclude other
            plotlines,
            > which are being worked on by the author with the series House War,
            which the
            > author originally expected to be one book but is going to be more
            than than,
            > and then the End of Days series.
            >
            > Given that there are -thousands- of pages among Hunter's Oath,
            Hunter's
            > Death, and the novels of The Sun Sword (can't remember all the
            times, they
            > include Sea of Sorrows, The Riven Shield, The Sun Sword, The
            Shining Court,
            > and the first two, are they, which I can't remember the names of at
            the
            > moment --oops, the first is The Broken Crown. Now it's only the
            second
            > book in the series, I think, that I can't remember the name of.),
            there's
            > lots of reading and a very wide tapestry involved. In one of the
            books,
            > Evayne (one of the major characters in the books, and one whom i
            should have
            > thought of before this) either is thrown back in time or has a
            flashback to
            > being through back in time, thousands of years in ancient evil
            Vexusa to
            > witness the horrific death of one who fought against Vexusa's evil
            > overlord--Evayne's path is unique she's tossed about in Time and
            never knows
            > where or when she's being sent, her past and future for her are
            linear, but
            > cut back and forth across the pasts and futures of the other people
            she
            > interacts with, so that from one appearance of her to another, she
            might
            > appear to be older, or younger, the the previous visit.
            >
            >
            > Anyway, I think that's probably enough suggestions from me for a
            while!
            >
            > > unfortunately, the few I've looked into so far have had a
            distressing
            > > tendency to veer off into romance masked with a thin veil of
            fantasy
            > > plot.
            > >
            > > So, I'd be really grateful if anyone can suggest something to
            read to
            > > while away the time before Tamir III finally comes out. Thanks!
          • nightwwolf
            Thanks everyone who replied! I ve read quite a few of those recommended. I liked Juliet Marillier s Sevenwaters trilogy - haven t started on her latest trilogy
            Message 5 of 25 , Apr 20, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              Thanks everyone who replied!

              I've read quite a few of those recommended. I liked Juliet Marillier's
              Sevenwaters trilogy - haven't started on her latest trilogy Foxmask
              yet, but wondering if anyone out there has an opinion? I'm very picky
              about what I read, and somehow reading the back blurb, I didn't find
              it very interesting. Anne Bishop's Black Jewels was good, I wish she'd
              write more of that than the fae stories. And I also like Jacqueline
              Carey's Kushiel books.

              But I'm a little puzzled about Storm Constantine. Again, I'm really
              picky about my fantasy reading; if the first page doesn't draw me in,
              I won't read it, and I've read one or two pages of one of Storm
              Constantine's books but I just couldn't like it. I found the writing
              rather stilted. Wondering if that's just my own idiosyncrasy, or maybe
              I picked up the book on a bad day, or perhaps it was just a bad
              example of her work. But I'll take a look at the Wreathu books.

              Wow, Paula gave me a very long list of books to check out - thanks heaps!


              --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "queenlyzzie04" <elyzabethm@h...>
              wrote:
              >
              > I understand exactly how you feel, I've discovered some rather
              > amazing stories while waiting for the next NR book to come out!! Some
              > that have a strong female lead is the Sevenwaters trilogy by Juliet
              > Marillier(Daughter of the forest, Son of the Shadows, and Child of
              > Prophecy), The Kushiel trilogy by Jaqueline Carey(Kushiel's Dart,
              > Kushiel's Chosen, and Kushiel's Avatar), and the Black Jewels Trilogy
              > by Anne Bishop. Wreaththu by Storm Constantine is fast becoming a
              > favorite.It doesn't have a female lead exactly (its about a race of
              > hermaphrodites) but if you can get into it you won't want to put it
              > down. There is the original three and she just finished a second
              > trilogy based on the original three. At first I was hesitant but once
              > I passed the first few chapters I was hooked!!! The characters are
              > fascinating because they have feminine and masculine traits and of
              > course it maked for interesting relationships. I don't know how to
              > give it enough praise without spoilers so you'll just have to take my
              > word for it and read it! The Kushiel trilogy is pretty racy, the
              > horoine is a servant of Namaah, one of the gods they wordhip in her
              > country, which translates into somewhat of a holy prostitute(???).
              > But while there are many of these in the land what makes our heroine
              > special is that she takes pleasure from pain, so you can just imagine
              > what kind of situations she finds herself in! The surprise in this
              > story is that she is also a trained spy and will do much for her
              > country so there is a sophisticated plot involved. So whichever you
              > decide on, let me know what you thought of it...
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Lieberman" <paal@g...>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "nightwwolf" <nightwwolf@y...>
              > >
              > >
              > > >
              > > > This is a very pointless rant, but I think you guys here can
              > > > understand what a torture it is waiting for book III to come out!
              > I
              > > > just read the first two books again for the umpteenth-squared
              > time,
              > > > and I'm considering just locking them up and forgetting them
              > because
              > > > it's killing me just waiting for the third one to be published.
              > I've
              > > > read a pretty good range of fantasy over the past 7 years, but Ms
              > > > Flewelling's Tamir books are one of the very very few I absolutely
              > > > have to reread every other month or so. I've reread the
              > Nightrunners a
              > > > few times too, but, I don't know, maybe because there isn't a
              > central
              > > > female character, I don't really connect to or like the series as
              > much
              > > > as the Tamir books.
              > > >
              > > > Anyway, I would like to ask if anyone has any fantasy
              > authors/series
              > > > to recommend to me. I've pretty much read all the big authors
              > > > (Eddings, Martin, Feist, Lackey, le Guin etc) and I'm looking for
              > > > lesser known
              > > > but quality authors like Ms Flewelling. I'm currently quite
              > interested
              > > > in female fantasy writers with central female characters, but
              > rather
              > >
              > > Godstalk, Dark of the Moon, and Seeker's Mask, by P. C. Hodgell,
              > also the
              > > collection Blood & Ivory, the Meisha Merlin edition, NOT the
              > Hypatia edition
              > > (the Meisha Merlin edition has added material). No romance for
              > Jame so
              > > far...
              > >
              > > Halfway between fantasy and science fiction and probably long out
              > of print--
              > > The Ozark Trilogy, by Suzette Haden Elgin, consisting of Twelve Fair
              > > Kingdoms, The Gand Jubilee, and And Then There'll Be Fireworks. It
              > has
              > > Granny Magic, and Magicians of Ranks, and Responsible of
              > Brightwater who
              > > with the name Responsible, is Responsible--for the whole planet!
              > >
              > > Can't remember the book names, but the Alix stories by Joanna
              > Russ, written
              > > before she wrote the iconoclastic feminist Sf novel _When It
              > Changed_,
              > > which was a watershed in the field, but anticipating various things.
              > >
              > > Going back even farther, the Jirel of Joiry stories by C. L. Moore.
              > >
              > > What else... my memory is now up to speed at the moment, there are
              > whole
              > > bunches that I can't think of right now....
              > >
              > > There's a lot of YA fantasy--The Rescue of Ranor, if you can find
              > it (ask at
              > > a library). Yeah, there's signs of romance, but nobody gets
              > gooey/mushy
              > > over it.... a white witch by the name of Minna lives in the land
              > of Magic
              > > not far from the border with Science, intentionally distant from
              > everyone
              > > one, when a boy comes knocking at her door with a Quest. She does
              > NOT want
              > > to go along with it. She doesn't have a choice, though.... And it
              > doesn't
              > > help the the boy came from the other side of the boundary and is
              > > anti-magical, put him next to something magic and it stops
              > working... this
              > > ones' a book with a lot of humor in it.
              > >
              > > There are Tamora Pierce's novels, actually the Circle of Magic/The
              > Circle
              > > Opens novels (each set has four books, and they're very much
              > available) are
              > > my favorites. She's got several other sets of books out.
              > >
              > > Cherry Wilder wrote a several novels, include A Princess of the
              > Chameln, and
              > > Yorath the Wolf. She was working again on the series, Katya
              > Riemann
              > > finished what de facto I believe is the last book in the series.
              > >
              > > There are Katya Riemann's books, which I am trying to think of the
              > names of.
              > > Duh.... trilogy, and none of the names are coming to my mind at the
              > moment.
              > > The focus character of most of the trilogy is a young woman who is
              > a twin.
              > >
              > > In a more contemporary vein, in a somewhat alterante world is _Dead
              > Witch
              > > Walking_ and the sequel to it, by someone whose name is escaping me
              > at the
              > > moment...
              > >
              > > What else--oh, Martha Wells' novels, including _Wheel of the
              > Infinite_,
              > > which has something of the feel of Lois McMaster Bujold's Curse of
              > Chalion
              > > about it. City of Bones however has a male protagonist focus and
              > is a
              > > rather odd book anyway.
              > >
              > > There are Michelle West's novels, the protagonist of _Hunter's
              > Oath_ is
              > > male, but in _Hunter's Death_ the cast expands out to a greater
              > ensemble,
              > > including Jewel who starts off as the teenaged head of a den of
              > young street
              > > thieves, and seeking help for a gravely injured member of her den
              > winds up
              > > moving from slum to inside one of the Ten greatest noble Houses in
              > the
              > > capital city she was born in and had lived all her life. The Sun
              > Sword
              > > series of books picks up later in the same universe, growing the
              > cast of
              > > characters even further. There's Kiriel, of dark ancestry, there's
              > the
              > > Flower of the Dominion, whose beauty leads to first a marriage her
              > family
              > > would not have preferred to her, and then tragedy assails her.
              > There's the
              > > aKalakar, warrior head of House Kalakar, and the Tefafin, born
              > Amaris
              > > Handernesse, head of House Terafin (both women are in Hunter's
              > Death I
              > > think). There's Siobhan who was head of the Bard Guild back in
              > Hunter;s
              > > Death, and the women who effective was head of the Mage Guild.
              > There's the
              > > mage who possibly is the most powerful human mage in the history of
              > that
              > > world, but who's insane. There are the Matriarchs of the Voyanne,
              > whose
              > > antecedents become clear in the fourth of so novel in the Sun Sword
              > series,
              > > Sea of Sorrows. There are appearances by Ariane, the Winter
              > Queen. There
              > > are also three narcissistic very large quarrelsome stone cats with
              > wings,
              > > which intrude themselves into the life of a woman who -hates- cats.
              > > There's the Serra Alina, sent as a hostage by the brother who saw
              > it an
              > > expedient solution, the Princess Royale of Averalan who occupies a
              > ambiguous
              > > position the court of the Twin Kings (her half-brother is also her
              > uncle,
              > > and that's hardly the oddest relationship involved in the royal
              > families),
              > > there;s Serra Teresa the aunt of the Flower of the Dominion, who
              > was not
              > > allowed by her family to marry. There are other women, also--
              > there's a huge
              > > cast of characters, aand the good news about the books being mass
              > market
              > > paperbacks is that 700 to 900 page mass market paperbacks are NOT
              > > footbreaker-mass books!
              > >
              > > The novel The Sun Sword does finish off the series the Sun Sword,
              > concluding
              > > various plot lines of the series. It doesn't conclude other
              > plotlines,
              > > which are being worked on by the author with the series House War,
              > which the
              > > author originally expected to be one book but is going to be more
              > than than,
              > > and then the End of Days series.
              > >
              > > Given that there are -thousands- of pages among Hunter's Oath,
              > Hunter's
              > > Death, and the novels of The Sun Sword (can't remember all the
              > times, they
              > > include Sea of Sorrows, The Riven Shield, The Sun Sword, The
              > Shining Court,
              > > and the first two, are they, which I can't remember the names of at
              > the
              > > moment --oops, the first is The Broken Crown. Now it's only the
              > second
              > > book in the series, I think, that I can't remember the name of.),
              > there's
              > > lots of reading and a very wide tapestry involved. In one of the
              > books,
              > > Evayne (one of the major characters in the books, and one whom i
              > should have
              > > thought of before this) either is thrown back in time or has a
              > flashback to
              > > being through back in time, thousands of years in ancient evil
              > Vexusa to
              > > witness the horrific death of one who fought against Vexusa's evil
              > > overlord--Evayne's path is unique she's tossed about in Time and
              > never knows
              > > where or when she's being sent, her past and future for her are
              > linear, but
              > > cut back and forth across the pasts and futures of the other people
              > she
              > > interacts with, so that from one appearance of her to another, she
              > might
              > > appear to be older, or younger, the the previous visit.
              > >
              > >
              > > Anyway, I think that's probably enough suggestions from me for a
              > while!
              > >
              > > > unfortunately, the few I've looked into so far have had a
              > distressing
              > > > tendency to veer off into romance masked with a thin veil of
              > fantasy
              > > > plot.
              > > >
              > > > So, I'd be really grateful if anyone can suggest something to
              > read to
              > > > while away the time before Tamir III finally comes out. Thanks!
            • nightwwolf
              ... Yes! I loved the dark, gothic feel of the Tamir books, I think that s why I liked them better than Nightrunners, because one of my other interests is
              Message 6 of 25 , Apr 20, 2005
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                --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, Jennifer Parker
                <daydreamer1585@y...> wrote:
                >
                > The Tamir series is my favorite by far of Mrs.
                > Flewelling's works. I love NR I lot, but it just can't
                > compete with Tamir for me. I think it's the "darkness"
                > of the Tamir series that really drew me in to begin
                > with. What can I say, I love tortured characters, and
                > Tobin definately has her/his problems. Then there was
                > Brother. I simply loved Brother so very much and the
                > relationship Tobin has with him.

                Yes! I loved the dark, gothic feel of the Tamir books, I think that's
                why I liked them better than Nightrunners, because one of my other
                interests is gothic fiction. I really liked the way Ms Flewelling made
                Brother such an ambiguous character - he saves Tobin a few times and
                helps him/her, yet he also lies to Tobin and mocks him/her - you just
                can't tell which side of the fence he sits on at times, or whether he
                loves Tobin at all. I hope he returns in Oracle's Queen because I
                really want to know what happens to him. His death was necessary, but
                how I wish he could have lived!

                It just struck me yesterday when I read Bone Doll's Twin that in the
                beginning, I think Tobin takes Ki as a kind of substitute brother
                figure. I mean, Tobin grew up knowing about Brother, and is quite
                well-acquainted with him, yet all Brother does is to torment Tobin -
                perhaps on some level Tobin wishes that Brother could be more like a
                real brother to him/her?

                > Probably my most
                > enjoyed moments in the books was when Tobin and Ki
                > were at the castle. It's all that everyday routine
                > stuff that I find to be the most enjoyable to read
                > about because it gives me a chance to kind of engross
                > myself in their actual normal life. The plot's
                > important and everything, and I know the book has to
                > get back to it eventually.... but I definately enjoyed
                > all the moments where there was a pause and I could
                > watch the characters interact in a normal, everyday
                > setting.

                I really enjoy those snippets of their everyday lives too. I think Ms
                Flewelling is really skilled at interweaving their normal lives with
                the plot. It reminds me rather of David and Leigh Eddings' Belgariad
                book one, Pawn of Prophecy, which shows Garion's life at the farm.
                Seeing how characters live in their everyday lives just makes them so
                much more real and lovable.
              • AM
                hi, you might want to try the demon child trilogy by jennifer fallon... or trinity trilogy by fiona macintosh cheers Adam ... From: nightwwolf To:
                Message 7 of 25 , Apr 20, 2005
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                  hi,
                  you might want to try the demon child trilogy by jennifer fallon...
                  or trinity trilogy by fiona macintosh

                  cheers
                  Adam
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: nightwwolf
                  To: Flewelling@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2005 3:07 PM
                  Subject: [Flewelling] Agonising over Tamir book III



                  This is a very pointless rant, but I think you guys here can
                  understand what a torture it is waiting for book III to come out! I
                  just read the first two books again for the umpteenth-squared time,
                  and I'm considering just locking them up and forgetting them because
                  it's killing me just waiting for the third one to be published. I've
                  read a pretty good range of fantasy over the past 7 years, but Ms
                  Flewelling's Tamir books are one of the very very few I absolutely
                  have to reread every other month or so. I've reread the Nightrunners a
                  few times too, but, I don't know, maybe because there isn't a central
                  female character, I don't really connect to or like the series as much
                  as the Tamir books.

                  Anyway, I would like to ask if anyone has any fantasy authors/series
                  to recommend to me. I've pretty much read all the big authors
                  (Eddings, Martin, Feist, Lackey, le Guin etc) and I'm looking for
                  lesser known
                  but quality authors like Ms Flewelling. I'm currently quite interested
                  in female fantasy writers with central female characters, but rather
                  unfortunately, the few I've looked into so far have had a distressing
                  tendency to veer off into romance masked with a thin veil of fantasy
                  plot.

                  So, I'd be really grateful if anyone can suggest something to read to
                  while away the time before Tamir III finally comes out. Thanks!

                  Cheers,
                  wwolf







                  Lynn's official web-site - www.sff.net/people/Lynn.Flewelling

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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Paula Lieberman
                  ... From: nightwwolf ... Baroque doesn t really fit Storm Constantine s work, but I can t think of a better term.... Ah, just
                  Message 8 of 25 , Apr 20, 2005
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "nightwwolf" <nightwwolf@...>


                    > Thanks everyone who replied!
                    >
                    > I've read quite a few of those recommended. I liked Juliet Marillier's
                    > Sevenwaters trilogy - haven't started on her latest trilogy Foxmask
                    > yet, but wondering if anyone out there has an opinion? I'm very picky
                    > about what I read, and somehow reading the back blurb, I didn't find
                    > it very interesting. Anne Bishop's Black Jewels was good, I wish she'd
                    > write more of that than the fae stories. And I also like Jacqueline
                    > Carey's Kushiel books.
                    >
                    > But I'm a little puzzled about Storm Constantine. Again, I'm really
                    > picky about my fantasy reading; if the first page doesn't draw me in,
                    > I won't read it, and I've read one or two pages of one of Storm
                    > Constantine's books but I just couldn't like it. I found the writing

                    "Baroque" doesn't really fit Storm Constantine's work, but I can't think of
                    a better term....

                    Ah, just thought of a couple more writers -- Tanith Lee, and -bah-, the
                    other writer I was just thinking of dropped out of my mind--back again, Mary
                    Gentle. I wasn't that thrilled with her set of books about a character
                    named Ash, but there are her books _The Architecture of Desire_ and _Rats
                    and Gargoyles_ about The White Crow. Someday I'll be in a position to track
                    down what seems to be a story also set in that world, "Soldiers and
                    Scholars." The books with The White Crow in them -are- baroque, and
                    somewhat dark in tone. Much of Tanith Lee's work is dark in tone, also.
                    Both of them were writing long before Anne Bishop, I wouldn't be surprised
                    if their writing influenced her in some way or other.

                    I liked Sharon Shinn's latest novel, titled something like _Mystic and
                    Rider_ or _Rider and Mystic_ There seems to be hints of romance toward the
                    end of the book, and doubtless there will be more books coming along. I
                    also liked her novel Summers at Castle Autumn. Much of her writing it
                    relatively "quiet" in tone.

                    > rather stilted. Wondering if that's just my own idiosyncrasy, or maybe
                    > I picked up the book on a bad day, or perhaps it was just a bad
                    > example of her work. But I'll take a look at the Wreathu books.
                    >

                    There are LOTS of books out there.... what else, there are the Mageworld
                    novels by Debra Doyl and James D. Macdonald, part SF part fantasy, there are
                    Mages and Adepts in them who f/i/g/h/t w/i/t/h l/i/g/h/t/s/a/b/e/r/s who
                    have staffs or rods and in effect practice magic, the first one published
                    was _Price of the Stars_ and the lead charater is Beka
                    whose-last-name-will-hit-me-later (Rosellin-Metadi). There are its direct
                    sequels, Starpilot's Grave, and By Honor Betray'd. There's a jump back
                    in time for a novel about her mother, can't remember the name of that one,
                    and a jump even further back in time, to first a novel before the Mage Wars
                    started, and its sequel--the lead character in those, though, is male,
                    though there is time travel going on and at least one character from a book
                    much later in the timeline, jumps back in time to that sequel. There is
                    also a book set a generation after Price of the Stars.

                    Judith Tarr's novels that start with a book that has a title something like
                    Arrow of the Sun, which takes place in something analogous to the Bronze Age
                    with magic, which culture that are something like Greek/Celtic for one set,
                    and ancient Egyptian for another part of that world, but with worldgates
                    that eventually various characters through, might catch your interest.
                    There;'s some romantic stuff in them, but if you liked Anne Bishop's Darker
                    Jewels novels that shouldn't be a problem--the characters stay saner about
                    love and sex than Daemon or various other of Anne Bishop's characters do,
                    and are certainly saner than Dorothea or Hekatah! There are both female
                    and male characters, and--nope, won't put -that- spoiler out more than
                    teasing at it by saying "won't say."
                  • Serena
                    Interesting. I love Storm s work, I find her a much more inventive and complex writer than Anne Bishop. I loved the Black Jewels books as well, the Fae was
                    Message 9 of 25 , Apr 20, 2005
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                      Interesting. I love Storm's work, I find her a much more inventive and complex writer than Anne Bishop. I loved the Black Jewels books as well, the Fae was kinda ordinary, Laurrell K Hamilton has written some rambunctious smut about Faerie which is more my style. With Anne's books by the third one I was getting kinda irritated with the repetitive descriptions of interpersonal relations and oaths spouted every few pages. Hard to keep it fresh in epic fiction. If you can try and perservere with Storm, she goes some places a lot of writers rarely do, but each to their own of course

                      nightwwolf <nightwwolf@...> wrote:
                      Thanks everyone who replied!

                      I've read quite a few of those recommended. I liked Juliet Marillier's
                      Sevenwaters trilogy - haven't started on her latest trilogy Foxmask
                      yet, but wondering if anyone out there has an opinion? I'm very picky
                      about what I read, and somehow reading the back blurb, I didn't find
                      it very interesting. Anne Bishop's Black Jewels was good, I wish she'd
                      write more of that than the fae stories. And I also like Jacqueline
                      Carey's Kushiel books.

                      But I'm a little puzzled about Storm Constantine. Again, I'm really
                      picky about my fantasy reading; if the first page doesn't draw me in,
                      I won't read it, and I've read one or two pages of one of Storm
                      Constantine's books but I just couldn't like it. I found the writing
                      rather stilted. Wondering if that's just my own idiosyncrasy, or maybe
                      I picked up the book on a bad day, or perhaps it was just a bad
                      example of her work. But I'll take a look at the Wreathu books.

                      Wow, Paula gave me a very long list of books to check out - thanks heaps!


                      --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "queenlyzzie04" <elyzabethm@h...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > I understand exactly how you feel, I've discovered some rather
                      > amazing stories while waiting for the next NR book to come out!! Some
                      > that have a strong female lead is the Sevenwaters trilogy by Juliet
                      > Marillier(Daughter of the forest, Son of the Shadows, and Child of
                      > Prophecy), The Kushiel trilogy by Jaqueline Carey(Kushiel's Dart,
                      > Kushiel's Chosen, and Kushiel's Avatar), and the Black Jewels Trilogy
                      > by Anne Bishop. Wreaththu by Storm Constantine is fast becoming a
                      > favorite.It doesn't have a female lead exactly (its about a race of
                      > hermaphrodites) but if you can get into it you won't want to put it
                      > down. There is the original three and she just finished a second
                      > trilogy based on the original three. At first I was hesitant but once
                      > I passed the first few chapters I was hooked!!! The characters are
                      > fascinating because they have feminine and masculine traits and of
                      > course it maked for interesting relationships. I don't know how to
                      > give it enough praise without spoilers so you'll just have to take my
                      > word for it and read it! The Kushiel trilogy is pretty racy, the
                      > horoine is a servant of Namaah, one of the gods they wordhip in her
                      > country, which translates into somewhat of a holy prostitute(???).
                      > But while there are many of these in the land what makes our heroine
                      > special is that she takes pleasure from pain, so you can just imagine
                      > what kind of situations she finds herself in! The surprise in this
                      > story is that she is also a trained spy and will do much for her
                      > country so there is a sophisticated plot involved. So whichever you
                      > decide on, let me know what you thought of it...
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Lieberman" <paal@g...>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: "nightwwolf" <nightwwolf@y...>
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > > This is a very pointless rant, but I think you guys here can
                      > > > understand what a torture it is waiting for book III to come out!
                      > I
                      > > > just read the first two books again for the umpteenth-squared
                      > time,
                      > > > and I'm considering just locking them up and forgetting them
                      > because
                      > > > it's killing me just waiting for the third one to be published.
                      > I've
                      > > > read a pretty good range of fantasy over the past 7 years, but Ms
                      > > > Flewelling's Tamir books are one of the very very few I absolutely
                      > > > have to reread every other month or so. I've reread the
                      > Nightrunners a
                      > > > few times too, but, I don't know, maybe because there isn't a
                      > central
                      > > > female character, I don't really connect to or like the series as
                      > much
                      > > > as the Tamir books.
                      > > >
                      > > > Anyway, I would like to ask if anyone has any fantasy
                      > authors/series
                      > > > to recommend to me. I've pretty much read all the big authors
                      > > > (Eddings, Martin, Feist, Lackey, le Guin etc) and I'm looking for
                      > > > lesser known
                      > > > but quality authors like Ms Flewelling. I'm currently quite
                      > interested
                      > > > in female fantasy writers with central female characters, but
                      > rather
                      > >
                      > > Godstalk, Dark of the Moon, and Seeker's Mask, by P. C. Hodgell,
                      > also the
                      > > collection Blood & Ivory, the Meisha Merlin edition, NOT the
                      > Hypatia edition
                      > > (the Meisha Merlin edition has added material). No romance for
                      > Jame so
                      > > far...
                      > >
                      > > Halfway between fantasy and science fiction and probably long out
                      > of print--
                      > > The Ozark Trilogy, by Suzette Haden Elgin, consisting of Twelve Fair
                      > > Kingdoms, The Gand Jubilee, and And Then There'll Be Fireworks. It
                      > has
                      > > Granny Magic, and Magicians of Ranks, and Responsible of
                      > Brightwater who
                      > > with the name Responsible, is Responsible--for the whole planet!
                      > >
                      > > Can't remember the book names, but the Alix stories by Joanna
                      > Russ, written
                      > > before she wrote the iconoclastic feminist Sf novel _When It
                      > Changed_,
                      > > which was a watershed in the field, but anticipating various things.
                      > >
                      > > Going back even farther, the Jirel of Joiry stories by C. L. Moore.
                      > >
                      > > What else... my memory is now up to speed at the moment, there are
                      > whole
                      > > bunches that I can't think of right now....
                      > >
                      > > There's a lot of YA fantasy--The Rescue of Ranor, if you can find
                      > it (ask at
                      > > a library). Yeah, there's signs of romance, but nobody gets
                      > gooey/mushy
                      > > over it.... a white witch by the name of Minna lives in the land
                      > of Magic
                      > > not far from the border with Science, intentionally distant from
                      > everyone
                      > > one, when a boy comes knocking at her door with a Quest. She does
                      > NOT want
                      > > to go along with it. She doesn't have a choice, though.... And it
                      > doesn't
                      > > help the the boy came from the other side of the boundary and is
                      > > anti-magical, put him next to something magic and it stops
                      > working... this
                      > > ones' a book with a lot of humor in it.
                      > >
                      > > There are Tamora Pierce's novels, actually the Circle of Magic/The
                      > Circle
                      > > Opens novels (each set has four books, and they're very much
                      > available) are
                      > > my favorites. She's got several other sets of books out.
                      > >
                      > > Cherry Wilder wrote a several novels, include A Princess of the
                      > Chameln, and
                      > > Yorath the Wolf. She was working again on the series, Katya
                      > Riemann
                      > > finished what de facto I believe is the last book in the series.
                      > >
                      > > There are Katya Riemann's books, which I am trying to think of the
                      > names of.
                      > > Duh.... trilogy, and none of the names are coming to my mind at the
                      > moment.
                      > > The focus character of most of the trilogy is a young woman who is
                      > a twin.
                      > >
                      > > In a more contemporary vein, in a somewhat alterante world is _Dead
                      > Witch
                      > > Walking_ and the sequel to it, by someone whose name is escaping me
                      > at the
                      > > moment...
                      > >
                      > > What else--oh, Martha Wells' novels, including _Wheel of the
                      > Infinite_,
                      > > which has something of the feel of Lois McMaster Bujold's Curse of
                      > Chalion
                      > > about it. City of Bones however has a male protagonist focus and
                      > is a
                      > > rather odd book anyway.
                      > >
                      > > There are Michelle West's novels, the protagonist of _Hunter's
                      > Oath_ is
                      > > male, but in _Hunter's Death_ the cast expands out to a greater
                      > ensemble,
                      > > including Jewel who starts off as the teenaged head of a den of
                      > young street
                      > > thieves, and seeking help for a gravely injured member of her den
                      > winds up
                      > > moving from slum to inside one of the Ten greatest noble Houses in
                      > the
                      > > capital city she was born in and had lived all her life. The Sun
                      > Sword
                      > > series of books picks up later in the same universe, growing the
                      > cast of
                      > > characters even further. There's Kiriel, of dark ancestry, there's
                      > the
                      > > Flower of the Dominion, whose beauty leads to first a marriage her
                      > family
                      > > would not have preferred to her, and then tragedy assails her.
                      > There's the
                      > > aKalakar, warrior head of House Kalakar, and the Tefafin, born
                      > Amaris
                      > > Handernesse, head of House Terafin (both women are in Hunter's
                      > Death I
                      > > think). There's Siobhan who was head of the Bard Guild back in
                      > Hunter;s
                      > > Death, and the women who effective was head of the Mage Guild.
                      > There's the
                      > > mage who possibly is the most powerful human mage in the history of
                      > that
                      > > world, but who's insane. There are the Matriarchs of the Voyanne,
                      > whose
                      > > antecedents become clear in the fourth of so novel in the Sun Sword
                      > series,
                      > > Sea of Sorrows. There are appearances by Ariane, the Winter
                      > Queen. There
                      > > are also three narcissistic very large quarrelsome stone cats with
                      > wings,
                      > > which intrude themselves into the life of a woman who -hates- cats.
                      > > There's the Serra Alina, sent as a hostage by the brother who saw
                      > it an
                      > > expedient solution, the Princess Royale of Averalan who occupies a
                      > ambiguous
                      > > position the court of the Twin Kings (her half-brother is also her
                      > uncle,
                      > > and that's hardly the oddest relationship involved in the royal
                      > families),
                      > > there;s Serra Teresa the aunt of the Flower of the Dominion, who
                      > was not
                      > > allowed by her family to marry. There are other women, also--
                      > there's a huge
                      > > cast of characters, aand the good news about the books being mass
                      > market
                      > > paperbacks is that 700 to 900 page mass market paperbacks are NOT
                      > > footbreaker-mass books!
                      > >
                      > > The novel The Sun Sword does finish off the series the Sun Sword,
                      > concluding
                      > > various plot lines of the series. It doesn't conclude other
                      > plotlines,
                      > > which are being worked on by the author with the series House War,
                      > which the
                      > > author originally expected to be one book but is going to be more
                      > than than,
                      > > and then the End of Days series.
                      > >
                      > > Given that there are -thousands- of pages among Hunter's Oath,
                      > Hunter's
                      > > Death, and the novels of The Sun Sword (can't remember all the
                      > times, they
                      > > include Sea of Sorrows, The Riven Shield, The Sun Sword, The
                      > Shining Court,
                      > > and the first two, are they, which I can't remember the names of at
                      > the
                      > > moment --oops, the first is The Broken Crown. Now it's only the
                      > second
                      > > book in the series, I think, that I can't remember the name of.),
                      > there's
                      > > lots of reading and a very wide tapestry involved. In one of the
                      > books,
                      > > Evayne (one of the major characters in the books, and one whom i
                      > should have
                      > > thought of before this) either is thrown back in time or has a
                      > flashback to
                      > > being through back in time, thousands of years in ancient evil
                      > Vexusa to
                      > > witness the horrific death of one who fought against Vexusa's evil
                      > > overlord--Evayne's path is unique she's tossed about in Time and
                      > never knows
                      > > where or when she's being sent, her past and future for her are
                      > linear, but
                      > > cut back and forth across the pasts and futures of the other people
                      > she
                      > > interacts with, so that from one appearance of her to another, she
                      > might
                      > > appear to be older, or younger, the the previous visit.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Anyway, I think that's probably enough suggestions from me for a
                      > while!
                      > >
                      > > > unfortunately, the few I've looked into so far have had a
                      > distressing
                      > > > tendency to veer off into romance masked with a thin veil of
                      > fantasy
                      > > > plot.
                      > > >
                      > > > So, I'd be really grateful if anyone can suggest something to
                      > read to
                      > > > while away the time before Tamir III finally comes out. Thanks!







                      Lynn's official web-site - www.sff.net/people/Lynn.Flewelling

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                    • Wendy Darling
                      Interesting... ... I read NR first and put off reading Tamir for quite a while. In the end, while it was very, very good, it didn t appeal to me nearly as much
                      Message 10 of 25 , Apr 20, 2005
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                        Interesting...

                        > The Tamir series is my favorite by far of Mrs.
                        > Flewelling's works. I love NR I lot, but it just can't
                        > compete with Tamir for me. I think it's the "darkness"
                        > of the Tamir series that really drew me in to begin
                        > with.

                        I read NR first and put off reading Tamir for quite a while. In the
                        end, while it was very, very good, it didn't appeal to me nearly as
                        much as NR. I didn't find myself randomly daydreaming about Tobin, for
                        example, whereas I could think about S&A all day, coming up with
                        scenarios, wondering things, guessing what their next adventure will
                        be. However, it's all about how a book connects with you personally.

                        > ::cough:: Anyway... Looking for books with strong
                        > female characters? Hmm....

                        I can name a few, in both Fantasy and SF genres:

                        Burying the Shadow
                        by Storm Constantine
                        Two strong female characters. Here's a review I wrote:
                        http://www.inception-magazine.com/winter02/reviews_burying.htm

                        Wild Seed
                        by Octavia Butler
                        I don't think Butler knows *how* to write a weak female character.
                        This is the first book in a saga but you can read it by itself. It
                        starts out in the 1600s/1700s with this one amazing mutant woman in
                        Africa, who meets up with a very unusual man, who takes her away to
                        the American colonies so he can breed her as part of a project he has
                        to create hybrid mutants. (This is nothing whatsoever like X-men or a
                        comic, BTW.) I think this is both SF and Fantasy.

                        Lilith's Brood (Dawn, Adulthood Rites, Imago)
                        by Octavia E. Butler
                        Amazing trilogy (available as a 3-in-1) about a woman who survives the
                        apocalpyse and then has to face the prospect of an alien race who
                        comes to rescue the human race by breeding with it to create a hybrid
                        superspecies and rebulding the earth. Very complex issues, well done.

                        Nadya
                        by Pat Murphy
                        The reading group focuses on SF/Fantasy/Horror books with GLBT
                        characters or themes. We picked this one b/c we thought it was a bit
                        of a horror novel, about a lesbian werewolf. Turns out there is a
                        lesbian werewolf in it, but it's much more a historical novel /
                        frontier novel than it is a horror novel. Still, I thought it was good
                        stuff.

                        Wendy

                        --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, Jennifer Parker
                        <daydreamer1585@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > The Tamir series is my favorite by far of Mrs.
                        > Flewelling's works. I love NR I lot, but it just can't
                        > compete with Tamir for me. I think it's the "darkness"
                        > of the Tamir series that really drew me in to begin
                        > with. What can I say, I love tortured characters, and
                        > Tobin definately has her/his problems. Then there was
                        > Brother. I simply loved Brother so very much and the
                        > relationship Tobin has with him. Probably my most
                        > enjoyed moments in the books was when Tobin and Ki
                        > were at the castle. It's all that everyday routine
                        > stuff that I find to be the most enjoyable to read
                        > about because it gives me a chance to kind of engross
                        > myself in their actual normal life. The plot's
                        > important and everything, and I know the book has to
                        > get back to it eventually.... but I definately enjoyed
                        > all the moments where there was a pause and I could
                        > watch the characters interact in a normal, everyday
                        > setting.
                        >
                        > ::cough:: Anyway... Looking for books with strong
                        > female characters? Hmm....
                      • M C
                        ... She has written a small collection of short stories in the BJ universe. It s called Dreams Made Flesh. You could also try The Black Magician Trilogy by
                        Message 11 of 25 , Apr 20, 2005
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                          >it very interesting. Anne Bishop's Black Jewels was good, I wish she'd
                          >write more of that than the fae stories.

                          She has written a small collection of short stories in the BJ universe. It's
                          called Dreams Made Flesh.

                          You could also try The Black Magician Trilogy by Trudi Canavan.

                          MC





                          .
                        • nellyhug@aol.com
                          The dark Jewel Trilogy by Anne Bishop. These are some books that i have just gotten into about a month ago. I read all three in 1 month. Strong female
                          Message 12 of 25 , Apr 20, 2005
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                            The dark Jewel Trilogy by Anne Bishop. These are some books that i have just gotten into about a month ago. I read all three in 1 month. Strong female character Janaelle and her coven. The books are dark fantasy. All of the characters are lovable or hatable in their own ways.

                            ok i'm going to say Laurell k hamiton's merry books. Really these are if you like them you are going to love them. and if you don't you will hate them. Really interesting veiw of the fey courts. Dark fantasy of course. But be warned there is a lot of sex in the books, but if that doesn't bother you i say try them out. Merry is another strong female character.

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: nightwwolf <nightwwolf@...>
                            To: Flewelling@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Wed, 20 Apr 2005 05:07:32 -0000
                            Subject: [Flewelling] Agonising over Tamir book III




                            This is a very pointless rant, but I think you guys here can
                            understand what a torture it is waiting for book III to come out! I
                            just read the first two books again for the umpteenth-squared time,
                            and I'm considering just locking them up and forgetting them because
                            it's killing me just waiting for the third one to be published. I've
                            read a pretty good range of fantasy over the past 7 years, but Ms
                            Flewelling's Tamir books are one of the very very few I absolutely
                            have to reread every other month or so. I've reread the Nightrunners a
                            few times too, but, I don't know, maybe because there isn't a central
                            female character, I don't really connect to or like the series as much
                            as the Tamir books.

                            Anyway, I would like to ask if anyone has any fantasy authors/series
                            to recommend to me. I've pretty much read all the big authors
                            (Eddings, Martin, Feist, Lackey, le Guin etc) and I'm looking for
                            lesser known
                            but quality authors like Ms Flewelling. I'm currently quite interested
                            in female fantasy writers with central female characters, but rather
                            unfortunately, the few I've looked into so far have had a distressing
                            tendency to veer off into romance masked with a thin veil of fantasy
                            plot.

                            So, I'd be really grateful if anyone can suggest something to read to
                            while away the time before Tamir III finally comes out. Thanks!

                            Cheers,
                            wwolf








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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Paula Lieberman
                            ... From: ... just gotten into about a month ago. I read all three in 1 month. Strong female character Janaelle and her coven. The books
                            Message 13 of 25 , Apr 20, 2005
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                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: <nellyhug@...>


                              > The dark Jewel Trilogy by Anne Bishop. These are some books that i have
                              just gotten into about a month ago. I read all three in 1 month. Strong
                              female character Janaelle and her coven. The books are dark fantasy. All
                              of the characters are lovable or hatable in their own ways.

                              There's a fourth, related book, that's a collection of several stories, it's
                              a trade paperback entitled something like Dreams Made Flesh.
                              >
                              > ok i'm going to say Laurell k hamiton's merry books. Really these are if
                              you like them you are going to love them. and if you don't you will hate
                              them. Really interesting veiw of the fey courts. Dark fantasy of course.
                              But be warned there is a lot of sex in the books, but if that doesn't bother
                              you i say try them out. Merry is another strong female character.
                            • Kelly Kurtz
                              ... I couldn t help respond and totally agree with Wendy on the NR books. After I turned the last pages on the NR novels my mind relived favorite scenes, even
                              Message 14 of 25 , Apr 20, 2005
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                                >From: "Wendy Darling" <wdarling@...>
                                >I read NR first and put off reading Tamir for quite a while. In the
                                >end, while it was very, very good, it didn't appeal to me nearly as
                                >much as NR. I didn't find myself randomly daydreaming about Tobin, for
                                >example, whereas I could think about S&A all day, coming up with
                                >scenarios, wondering things, guessing what their next adventure will
                                >be. However, it's all about how a book connects with you personally.

                                I couldn't help respond and totally agree with Wendy on the NR books. After
                                I turned the last pages on the NR novels my mind relived favorite scenes,
                                even dreaming of new danger and daring do and affectionate moments between
                                the Seregil and Alec and their friends. On the other hand the Tamir books
                                didn't work for me at all, chiefly because I didn't care for the main
                                character, Tobin. I purchased the novels but admit I didn't savor them - in
                                fact, I skimmed (speed read, really) after the first half or so.

                                The Nightrunner novels rank way up there on my favorites list of fantasy
                                reading, alongside the novels (*early* novels) of Katherine Kurtz and
                                (*early*) Judith Tarr.

                                Then someone asked for book recs with strong female characters and Wendy
                                rec'd Burying the Shadow by Storm Constantine, Wild Seed and Lilith's Brood
                                by Octavia Butler. Call me odd, but I tend to veer from books "starring"
                                female characters. I look for novels featuring male friendships and
                                relationships. Hence my less than enthusiastic reaction to the Tamir novels,
                                however ambiguous.

                                I do, however, think that women write male relationship stories better than
                                male writers (at least, the male relationships *I* like).

                                Kelly
                              • queenlyzzie04
                                You re welcome. Alot of the books I ve discovered are from word of mouth instead of the small, sometimes misleading, descriptions on the jackets. About the
                                Message 15 of 25 , Apr 20, 2005
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                                  You're welcome.
                                  Alot of the books I've discovered are from word of mouth instead of
                                  the small, sometimes misleading, descriptions on the jackets. About
                                  the Wreaththu books by Storm Constantine I actually got them a year
                                  ago! Every time I've picked them up I would stop and start reading
                                  something else. Finally I ran out of things to read and I read the
                                  NR books to death, the third Tamir book isn't out yet, so...out came
                                  the Wheaththu book again. Honestly it can start kinda slow but be
                                  assured it will be worth it if you can stick to it! I finished all
                                  three books in about 2 weeks! To my surprise when I went online I
                                  discovered that she had written 3 more! I really hope you decide to
                                  try them...





                                  --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "nightwwolf" <nightwwolf@y...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Thanks everyone who replied!
                                  >
                                  > I've read quite a few of those recommended. I liked Juliet
                                  Marillier's
                                  > Sevenwaters trilogy - haven't started on her latest trilogy Foxmask
                                  > yet, but wondering if anyone out there has an opinion? I'm very
                                  picky
                                  > about what I read, and somehow reading the back blurb, I didn't
                                  find
                                  > it very interesting. Anne Bishop's Black Jewels was good, I wish
                                  she'd
                                  > write more of that than the fae stories. And I also like Jacqueline
                                  > Carey's Kushiel books.
                                  >
                                  > But I'm a little puzzled about Storm Constantine. Again, I'm really
                                  > picky about my fantasy reading; if the first page doesn't draw me
                                  in,
                                  > I won't read it, and I've read one or two pages of one of Storm
                                  > Constantine's books but I just couldn't like it. I found the
                                  writing
                                  > rather stilted. Wondering if that's just my own idiosyncrasy, or
                                  maybe
                                  > I picked up the book on a bad day, or perhaps it was just a bad
                                  > example of her work. But I'll take a look at the Wreathu books.
                                  >
                                  > Wow, Paula gave me a very long list of books to check out - thanks
                                  heaps!
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "queenlyzzie04"
                                  <elyzabethm@h...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > I understand exactly how you feel, I've discovered some rather
                                  > > amazing stories while waiting for the next NR book to come out!!
                                  Some
                                  > > that have a strong female lead is the Sevenwaters trilogy by
                                  Juliet
                                  > > Marillier(Daughter of the forest, Son of the Shadows, and Child
                                  of
                                  > > Prophecy), The Kushiel trilogy by Jaqueline Carey(Kushiel's
                                  Dart,
                                  > > Kushiel's Chosen, and Kushiel's Avatar), and the Black Jewels
                                  Trilogy
                                  > > by Anne Bishop. Wreaththu by Storm Constantine is fast becoming
                                  a
                                  > > favorite.It doesn't have a female lead exactly (its about a race
                                  of
                                  > > hermaphrodites) but if you can get into it you won't want to put
                                  it
                                  > > down. There is the original three and she just finished a second
                                  > > trilogy based on the original three. At first I was hesitant but
                                  once
                                  > > I passed the first few chapters I was hooked!!! The characters
                                  are
                                  > > fascinating because they have feminine and masculine traits and
                                  of
                                  > > course it maked for interesting relationships. I don't know how
                                  to
                                  > > give it enough praise without spoilers so you'll just have to
                                  take my
                                  > > word for it and read it! The Kushiel trilogy is pretty racy, the
                                  > > horoine is a servant of Namaah, one of the gods they wordhip in
                                  her
                                  > > country, which translates into somewhat of a holy prostitute
                                  (???).
                                  > > But while there are many of these in the land what makes our
                                  heroine
                                  > > special is that she takes pleasure from pain, so you can just
                                  imagine
                                  > > what kind of situations she finds herself in! The surprise in
                                  this
                                  > > story is that she is also a trained spy and will do much for her
                                  > > country so there is a sophisticated plot involved. So whichever
                                  you
                                  > > decide on, let me know what you thought of it...
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "Paula Lieberman" <paal@g...>
                                  > > wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > > From: "nightwwolf" <nightwwolf@y...>
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > This is a very pointless rant, but I think you guys here can
                                  > > > > understand what a torture it is waiting for book III to come
                                  out!
                                  > > I
                                  > > > > just read the first two books again for the umpteenth-
                                  squared
                                  > > time,
                                  > > > > and I'm considering just locking them up and forgetting them
                                  > > because
                                  > > > > it's killing me just waiting for the third one to be
                                  published.
                                  > > I've
                                  > > > > read a pretty good range of fantasy over the past 7 years,
                                  but Ms
                                  > > > > Flewelling's Tamir books are one of the very very few I
                                  absolutely
                                  > > > > have to reread every other month or so. I've reread the
                                  > > Nightrunners a
                                  > > > > few times too, but, I don't know, maybe because there isn't
                                  a
                                  > > central
                                  > > > > female character, I don't really connect to or like the
                                  series as
                                  > > much
                                  > > > > as the Tamir books.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Anyway, I would like to ask if anyone has any fantasy
                                  > > authors/series
                                  > > > > to recommend to me. I've pretty much read all the big authors
                                  > > > > (Eddings, Martin, Feist, Lackey, le Guin etc) and I'm
                                  looking for
                                  > > > > lesser known
                                  > > > > but quality authors like Ms Flewelling. I'm currently quite
                                  > > interested
                                  > > > > in female fantasy writers with central female characters,
                                  but
                                  > > rather
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Godstalk, Dark of the Moon, and Seeker's Mask, by P. C.
                                  Hodgell,
                                  > > also the
                                  > > > collection Blood & Ivory, the Meisha Merlin edition, NOT the
                                  > > Hypatia edition
                                  > > > (the Meisha Merlin edition has added material). No romance
                                  for
                                  > > Jame so
                                  > > > far...
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Halfway between fantasy and science fiction and probably long
                                  out
                                  > > of print--
                                  > > > The Ozark Trilogy, by Suzette Haden Elgin, consisting of
                                  Twelve Fair
                                  > > > Kingdoms, The Gand Jubilee, and And Then There'll Be
                                  Fireworks. It
                                  > > has
                                  > > > Granny Magic, and Magicians of Ranks, and Responsible of
                                  > > Brightwater who
                                  > > > with the name Responsible, is Responsible--for the whole
                                  planet!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Can't remember the book names, but the Alix stories by Joanna
                                  > > Russ, written
                                  > > > before she wrote the iconoclastic feminist Sf novel _When It
                                  > > Changed_,
                                  > > > which was a watershed in the field, but anticipating various
                                  things.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Going back even farther, the Jirel of Joiry stories by C. L.
                                  Moore.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > What else... my memory is now up to speed at the moment, there
                                  are
                                  > > whole
                                  > > > bunches that I can't think of right now....
                                  > > >
                                  > > > There's a lot of YA fantasy--The Rescue of Ranor, if you can
                                  find
                                  > > it (ask at
                                  > > > a library). Yeah, there's signs of romance, but nobody gets
                                  > > gooey/mushy
                                  > > > over it.... a white witch by the name of Minna lives in the
                                  land
                                  > > of Magic
                                  > > > not far from the border with Science, intentionally distant
                                  from
                                  > > everyone
                                  > > > one, when a boy comes knocking at her door with a Quest. She
                                  does
                                  > > NOT want
                                  > > > to go along with it. She doesn't have a choice, though....
                                  And it
                                  > > doesn't
                                  > > > help the the boy came from the other side of the boundary and
                                  is
                                  > > > anti-magical, put him next to something magic and it stops
                                  > > working... this
                                  > > > ones' a book with a lot of humor in it.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > There are Tamora Pierce's novels, actually the Circle of
                                  Magic/The
                                  > > Circle
                                  > > > Opens novels (each set has four books, and they're very much
                                  > > available) are
                                  > > > my favorites. She's got several other sets of books out.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Cherry Wilder wrote a several novels, include A Princess of
                                  the
                                  > > Chameln, and
                                  > > > Yorath the Wolf. She was working again on the series, Katya
                                  > > Riemann
                                  > > > finished what de facto I believe is the last book in the
                                  series.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > There are Katya Riemann's books, which I am trying to think of
                                  the
                                  > > names of.
                                  > > > Duh.... trilogy, and none of the names are coming to my mind
                                  at the
                                  > > moment.
                                  > > > The focus character of most of the trilogy is a young woman
                                  who is
                                  > > a twin.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > In a more contemporary vein, in a somewhat alterante world is
                                  _Dead
                                  > > Witch
                                  > > > Walking_ and the sequel to it, by someone whose name is
                                  escaping me
                                  > > at the
                                  > > > moment...
                                  > > >
                                  > > > What else--oh, Martha Wells' novels, including _Wheel of the
                                  > > Infinite_,
                                  > > > which has something of the feel of Lois McMaster Bujold's
                                  Curse of
                                  > > Chalion
                                  > > > about it. City of Bones however has a male protagonist focus
                                  and
                                  > > is a
                                  > > > rather odd book anyway.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > There are Michelle West's novels, the protagonist of _Hunter's
                                  > > Oath_ is
                                  > > > male, but in _Hunter's Death_ the cast expands out to a
                                  greater
                                  > > ensemble,
                                  > > > including Jewel who starts off as the teenaged head of a den
                                  of
                                  > > young street
                                  > > > thieves, and seeking help for a gravely injured member of her
                                  den
                                  > > winds up
                                  > > > moving from slum to inside one of the Ten greatest noble
                                  Houses in
                                  > > the
                                  > > > capital city she was born in and had lived all her life. The
                                  Sun
                                  > > Sword
                                  > > > series of books picks up later in the same universe, growing
                                  the
                                  > > cast of
                                  > > > characters even further. There's Kiriel, of dark ancestry,
                                  there's
                                  > > the
                                  > > > Flower of the Dominion, whose beauty leads to first a marriage
                                  her
                                  > > family
                                  > > > would not have preferred to her, and then tragedy assails
                                  her.
                                  > > There's the
                                  > > > aKalakar, warrior head of House Kalakar, and the Tefafin, born
                                  > > Amaris
                                  > > > Handernesse, head of House Terafin (both women are in Hunter's
                                  > > Death I
                                  > > > think). There's Siobhan who was head of the Bard Guild back
                                  in
                                  > > Hunter;s
                                  > > > Death, and the women who effective was head of the Mage
                                  Guild.
                                  > > There's the
                                  > > > mage who possibly is the most powerful human mage in the
                                  history of
                                  > > that
                                  > > > world, but who's insane. There are the Matriarchs of the
                                  Voyanne,
                                  > > whose
                                  > > > antecedents become clear in the fourth of so novel in the Sun
                                  Sword
                                  > > series,
                                  > > > Sea of Sorrows. There are appearances by Ariane, the Winter
                                  > > Queen. There
                                  > > > are also three narcissistic very large quarrelsome stone cats
                                  with
                                  > > wings,
                                  > > > which intrude themselves into the life of a woman who -hates-
                                  cats.
                                  > > > There's the Serra Alina, sent as a hostage by the brother who
                                  saw
                                  > > it an
                                  > > > expedient solution, the Princess Royale of Averalan who
                                  occupies a
                                  > > ambiguous
                                  > > > position the court of the Twin Kings (her half-brother is also
                                  her
                                  > > uncle,
                                  > > > and that's hardly the oddest relationship involved in the
                                  royal
                                  > > families),
                                  > > > there;s Serra Teresa the aunt of the Flower of the Dominion,
                                  who
                                  > > was not
                                  > > > allowed by her family to marry. There are other women, also--
                                  > > there's a huge
                                  > > > cast of characters, aand the good news about the books being
                                  mass
                                  > > market
                                  > > > paperbacks is that 700 to 900 page mass market paperbacks are
                                  NOT
                                  > > > footbreaker-mass books!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The novel The Sun Sword does finish off the series the Sun
                                  Sword,
                                  > > concluding
                                  > > > various plot lines of the series. It doesn't conclude other
                                  > > plotlines,
                                  > > > which are being worked on by the author with the series House
                                  War,
                                  > > which the
                                  > > > author originally expected to be one book but is going to be
                                  more
                                  > > than than,
                                  > > > and then the End of Days series.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Given that there are -thousands- of pages among Hunter's
                                  Oath,
                                  > > Hunter's
                                  > > > Death, and the novels of The Sun Sword (can't remember all the
                                  > > times, they
                                  > > > include Sea of Sorrows, The Riven Shield, The Sun Sword, The
                                  > > Shining Court,
                                  > > > and the first two, are they, which I can't remember the names
                                  of at
                                  > > the
                                  > > > moment --oops, the first is The Broken Crown. Now it's only
                                  the
                                  > > second
                                  > > > book in the series, I think, that I can't remember the name
                                  of.),
                                  > > there's
                                  > > > lots of reading and a very wide tapestry involved. In one of
                                  the
                                  > > books,
                                  > > > Evayne (one of the major characters in the books, and one whom
                                  i
                                  > > should have
                                  > > > thought of before this) either is thrown back in time or has a
                                  > > flashback to
                                  > > > being through back in time, thousands of years in ancient evil
                                  > > Vexusa to
                                  > > > witness the horrific death of one who fought against Vexusa's
                                  evil
                                  > > > overlord--Evayne's path is unique she's tossed about in Time
                                  and
                                  > > never knows
                                  > > > where or when she's being sent, her past and future for her
                                  are
                                  > > linear, but
                                  > > > cut back and forth across the pasts and futures of the other
                                  people
                                  > > she
                                  > > > interacts with, so that from one appearance of her to another,
                                  she
                                  > > might
                                  > > > appear to be older, or younger, the the previous visit.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Anyway, I think that's probably enough suggestions from me for
                                  a
                                  > > while!
                                  > > >
                                  > > > > unfortunately, the few I've looked into so far have had a
                                  > > distressing
                                  > > > > tendency to veer off into romance masked with a thin veil of
                                  > > fantasy
                                  > > > > plot.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > So, I'd be really grateful if anyone can suggest something
                                  to
                                  > > read to
                                  > > > > while away the time before Tamir III finally comes out.
                                  Thanks!
                                • jackcarstares
                                  I know that already tons of books were recommended to you, but as some of my favourite authors weren t among them, I thought I might put in my two cents, as
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Apr 21, 2005
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                                    I know that already tons of books were recommended to you, but as
                                    some of my favourite authors weren't among them, I thought I might
                                    put in my two cents, as well:

                                    Robin Hobb
                                    She started with the Farseer Trilogy, continued with the Liveship
                                    Traders Triology and then wrote The Tawny Man Triology. All of the
                                    trilogies are set in the same world and some of the characters appear
                                    in all of them, but they can be read separately, though I wouldn't
                                    start with the Tawny Man Trilogy as it is the sequel to the Farseer
                                    Trilogy. Her novels are epic, but IMHO very well written, with very
                                    detailed characters who really are not perfect.

                                    Guy Gavriel Kay
                                    To me he's just THE fantasy author, almost like a classic. He started
                                    with the Fionavar Tapestry, which is more or less common fantasy, but
                                    his style has developed a LOT since than: Tigana, A Song for Arbonne,
                                    The Lions of Al-Rassan, The Sarantine Mosaic (Sailing to Sarantium
                                    and Lord of the Emperors) are his latest novels. Last Light of the
                                    Sun is his newest publication, but I haven't read that so far. He's
                                    not that easy to read, but he's simply a class of his own - at least
                                    to me.

                                    Tad Williams
                                    His Memory, Sorrow and Thorn is a classical fantasy, also very epic,
                                    but very good! I haven't read his science fictions novels, as I don't
                                    like science fiction, but they are said to be good, too.


                                    I loved to read Anne Bishop, as well, but since her Dreams Made
                                    Flesh, I'm a bit disappointed in her. She seems to repeat herself a
                                    lot and I think her stories lost a bit of attraction to me (though
                                    I'll probably continue reading her books).

                                    Kirsten
                                  • nightwwolf
                                    Very interesting... It was the exact opposite for me, and I d started reading the Tamir books first. It s not that I didn t like NR - I did like S and A very
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Apr 21, 2005
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                                      Very interesting... It was the exact opposite for me, and I'd started
                                      reading the Tamir books first. It's not that I didn't like NR - I did
                                      like S and A very much, and I think the writing's on parr with the
                                      Tamir books but somehow I just don't really feel the urge to reread
                                      them constantly as I do for for the Tamir ones. I thought it might be
                                      because it features a gay rather than straight relationship, but then
                                      again I really liked Mercedes Lackey's Last Herald Mage books... sooo
                                      I guess it's just some weird quirk of mine.

                                      Or maybe there could be a link between which series you read first and
                                      which you like most... This brings to mind what Piers Anthony wrote
                                      once - that while most of his Xanth series fans said that the quality
                                      of the books got worse as the series progressed, one of his fans who'd
                                      read the series back to front claimed that the latter books were
                                      better instead.

                                      Anyway, books with strong female characters is something I'm currently
                                      very interested in, because I'm interested in seeing how authors deal
                                      with putting a female character in a role of authority/power - things
                                      like how the style with which heroines exert authority over others
                                      differ from males, etc.


                                      --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Kurtz" <KellyKurtz@h...> wrote:
                                      > >From: "Wendy Darling" <wdarling@a...>
                                      > >I read NR first and put off reading Tamir for quite a while. In the
                                      > >end, while it was very, very good, it didn't appeal to me nearly as
                                      > >much as NR. I didn't find myself randomly daydreaming about Tobin, for
                                      > >example, whereas I could think about S&A all day, coming up with
                                      > >scenarios, wondering things, guessing what their next adventure will
                                      > >be. However, it's all about how a book connects with you personally.
                                      >
                                      > I couldn't help respond and totally agree with Wendy on the NR
                                      books. After
                                      > I turned the last pages on the NR novels my mind relived favorite
                                      scenes,
                                      > even dreaming of new danger and daring do and affectionate moments
                                      between
                                      > the Seregil and Alec and their friends. On the other hand the Tamir
                                      books
                                      > didn't work for me at all, chiefly because I didn't care for the main
                                      > character, Tobin. I purchased the novels but admit I didn't savor
                                      them - in
                                      > fact, I skimmed (speed read, really) after the first half or so.
                                      >
                                      > The Nightrunner novels rank way up there on my favorites list of
                                      fantasy
                                      > reading, alongside the novels (*early* novels) of Katherine Kurtz and
                                      > (*early*) Judith Tarr.
                                      >
                                      > Then someone asked for book recs with strong female characters and
                                      Wendy
                                      > rec'd Burying the Shadow by Storm Constantine, Wild Seed and
                                      Lilith's Brood
                                      > by Octavia Butler. Call me odd, but I tend to veer from books
                                      "starring"
                                      > female characters. I look for novels featuring male friendships and
                                      > relationships. Hence my less than enthusiastic reaction to the Tamir
                                      novels,
                                      > however ambiguous.
                                      >
                                      > I do, however, think that women write male relationship stories
                                      better than
                                      > male writers (at least, the male relationships *I* like).
                                      >
                                      > Kelly
                                    • Jennifer Parker
                                      Well, I read the NR series first, but I am more in love with the Tamir books. I ve read them numerous times, usually finishing them in a few days, but the NR
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Apr 21, 2005
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                                        Well, I read the NR series first, but I am more in
                                        love with the Tamir books. I've read them numerous
                                        times, usually finishing them in a few days, but the
                                        NR series I've only read a few times (this is my 3rd),
                                        and it takes me a lot longer to get through them.
                                        Tamir's just more fascinating for me - a real page
                                        turner. All this talk about it is actually putting me
                                        in the mood to read the books again. :P

                                        One of the things I like most about Ms. Flewelling's
                                        books is that her female characters are realistically
                                        strong. Like, often I see in many books that try and
                                        have "strong women" this trend in making their women
                                        overly competent in everything. Their women can't be
                                        normal human beings - no, they have to be
                                        "super-women" while the male characters are "normal"
                                        and have some noticable character flaw (usually
                                        underestimating the women) that gets them into trouble
                                        all the time. With Ms. Flewelling's books, I never
                                        really sensed any gender barriers - that one character
                                        has to be a certain way because she's female or
                                        another character because he's male. She gives them
                                        all flaws and strengths and doesn't have any real
                                        roles that one gender's only allowed to fill (except
                                        for Queen, of course). Anyway, that's probably one of
                                        the main reasons I love her so much.

                                        -Jiffer-

                                        --- nightwwolf <nightwwolf@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Very interesting... It was the exact opposite for
                                        > me, and I'd started
                                        > reading the Tamir books first. It's not that I
                                        > didn't like NR - I did
                                        > like S and A very much, and I think the writing's on
                                        > parr with the
                                        > Tamir books but somehow I just don't really feel the
                                        > urge to reread
                                        > them constantly as I do for for the Tamir ones. I
                                        > thought it might be
                                        > because it features a gay rather than straight
                                        > relationship, but then
                                        > again I really liked Mercedes Lackey's Last Herald
                                        > Mage books... sooo
                                        > I guess it's just some weird quirk of mine.
                                        >
                                        > Or maybe there could be a link between which series
                                        > you read first and
                                        > which you like most... This brings to mind what
                                        > Piers Anthony wrote
                                        > once - that while most of his Xanth series fans said
                                        > that the quality
                                        > of the books got worse as the series progressed, one
                                        > of his fans who'd
                                        > read the series back to front claimed that the
                                        > latter books were
                                        > better instead.
                                        >
                                        > Anyway, books with strong female characters is
                                        > something I'm currently
                                        > very interested in, because I'm interested in seeing
                                        > how authors deal
                                        > with putting a female character in a role of
                                        > authority/power - things
                                        > like how the style with which heroines exert
                                        > authority over others
                                        > differ from males, etc.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Kurtz"
                                        > <KellyKurtz@h...> wrote:
                                        > > >From: "Wendy Darling" <wdarling@a...>
                                        > > >I read NR first and put off reading Tamir for
                                        > quite a while. In the
                                        > > >end, while it was very, very good, it didn't
                                        > appeal to me nearly as
                                        > > >much as NR. I didn't find myself randomly
                                        > daydreaming about Tobin, for
                                        > > >example, whereas I could think about S&A all day,
                                        > coming up with
                                        > > >scenarios, wondering things, guessing what their
                                        > next adventure will
                                        > > >be. However, it's all about how a book connects
                                        > with you personally.
                                        > >
                                        > > I couldn't help respond and totally agree with
                                        > Wendy on the NR
                                        > books. After
                                        > > I turned the last pages on the NR novels my mind
                                        > relived favorite
                                        > scenes,
                                        > > even dreaming of new danger and daring do and
                                        > affectionate moments
                                        > between
                                        > > the Seregil and Alec and their friends. On the
                                        > other hand the Tamir
                                        > books
                                        > > didn't work for me at all, chiefly because I
                                        > didn't care for the main
                                        > > character, Tobin. I purchased the novels but admit
                                        > I didn't savor
                                        > them - in
                                        > > fact, I skimmed (speed read, really) after the
                                        > first half or so.
                                        > >
                                        > > The Nightrunner novels rank way up there on my
                                        > favorites list of
                                        > fantasy
                                        > > reading, alongside the novels (*early* novels) of
                                        > Katherine Kurtz and
                                        > > (*early*) Judith Tarr.
                                        > >
                                        > > Then someone asked for book recs with strong
                                        > female characters and
                                        > Wendy
                                        > > rec'd Burying the Shadow by Storm Constantine,
                                        > Wild Seed and
                                        > Lilith's Brood
                                        > > by Octavia Butler. Call me odd, but I tend to
                                        > veer from books
                                        > "starring"
                                        > > female characters. I look for novels featuring
                                        > male friendships and
                                        > > relationships. Hence my less than enthusiastic
                                        > reaction to the Tamir
                                        > novels,
                                        > > however ambiguous.
                                        > >
                                        > > I do, however, think that women write male
                                        > relationship stories
                                        > better than
                                        > > male writers (at least, the male relationships *I*
                                        > like).
                                        > >
                                        > > Kelly
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >

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                                      • lynn_flewelling
                                        ... Thanks for noting that! I work really hard at that. It s a bit of a mission with me.
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Apr 21, 2005
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                                          --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, Jennifer Parker <daydreamer1585@y...> wrote:

                                          >
                                          > One of the things I like most about Ms. Flewelling's
                                          > books is that her female characters are realistically
                                          > strong. Like, often I see in many books that try and
                                          > have "strong women" this trend in making their women
                                          > overly competent in everything. Their women can't be
                                          > normal human beings - no, they have to be
                                          > "super-women" while the male characters are "normal"
                                          > and have some noticable character flaw (usually
                                          > underestimating the women) that gets them into trouble
                                          > all the time. With Ms. Flewelling's books, I never
                                          > really sensed any gender barriers - that one character
                                          > has to be a certain way because she's female or
                                          > another character because he's male. She gives them
                                          > all flaws and strengths and doesn't have any real
                                          > roles that one gender's only allowed to fill (except
                                          > for Queen, of course). Anyway, that's probably one of
                                          > the main reasons I love her so much.

                                          Thanks for noting that! I work really hard at that. It's a bit of a mission with me.

                                          :-) Lynn
                                        • queenlyzzie04
                                          I have another suggestion, I can t believe I forgot this author since her work was some of the first to get me interested in this genre--- Alice Borchardt.
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Apr 21, 2005
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                                            I have another suggestion, I can't believe I forgot this author since
                                            her work was some of the first to get me interested in this genre---
                                            Alice Borchardt. She's Anne Rice's sister and she has written two
                                            very interesting series' with female leads. What actually remimded me
                                            of her just now is your "cybername". There's the shapeshifter series
                                            (The Silver Wolf, Night of the Wolf, and The Wolf King) and a series
                                            that relates to those characters but is called the Guinevere series
                                            (The Dragon Queen, and the Raven Warrior) the third book still has
                                            not come out though :( Both of these story lines mix alot of sci-fi
                                            with historical fiction and it really worked, al least for me.














                                            --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "nightwwolf" <nightwwolf@y...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Very interesting... It was the exact opposite for me, and I'd
                                            started
                                            > reading the Tamir books first. It's not that I didn't like NR - I
                                            did
                                            > like S and A very much, and I think the writing's on parr with the
                                            > Tamir books but somehow I just don't really feel the urge to reread
                                            > them constantly as I do for for the Tamir ones. I thought it might
                                            be
                                            > because it features a gay rather than straight relationship, but
                                            then
                                            > again I really liked Mercedes Lackey's Last Herald Mage books...
                                            sooo
                                            > I guess it's just some weird quirk of mine.
                                            >
                                            > Or maybe there could be a link between which series you read first
                                            and
                                            > which you like most... This brings to mind what Piers Anthony wrote
                                            > once - that while most of his Xanth series fans said that the
                                            quality
                                            > of the books got worse as the series progressed, one of his fans
                                            who'd
                                            > read the series back to front claimed that the latter books were
                                            > better instead.
                                            >
                                            > Anyway, books with strong female characters is something I'm
                                            currently
                                            > very interested in, because I'm interested in seeing how authors
                                            deal
                                            > with putting a female character in a role of authority/power -
                                            things
                                            > like how the style with which heroines exert authority over others
                                            > differ from males, etc.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Kurtz" <KellyKurtz@h...>
                                            wrote:
                                            > > >From: "Wendy Darling" <wdarling@a...>
                                            > > >I read NR first and put off reading Tamir for quite a while. In
                                            the
                                            > > >end, while it was very, very good, it didn't appeal to me nearly
                                            as
                                            > > >much as NR. I didn't find myself randomly daydreaming about
                                            Tobin, for
                                            > > >example, whereas I could think about S&A all day, coming up with
                                            > > >scenarios, wondering things, guessing what their next adventure
                                            will
                                            > > >be. However, it's all about how a book connects with you
                                            personally.
                                            > >
                                            > > I couldn't help respond and totally agree with Wendy on the NR
                                            > books. After
                                            > > I turned the last pages on the NR novels my mind relived favorite
                                            > scenes,
                                            > > even dreaming of new danger and daring do and affectionate moments
                                            > between
                                            > > the Seregil and Alec and their friends. On the other hand the
                                            Tamir
                                            > books
                                            > > didn't work for me at all, chiefly because I didn't care for the
                                            main
                                            > > character, Tobin. I purchased the novels but admit I didn't savor
                                            > them - in
                                            > > fact, I skimmed (speed read, really) after the first half or so.
                                            > >
                                            > > The Nightrunner novels rank way up there on my favorites list of
                                            > fantasy
                                            > > reading, alongside the novels (*early* novels) of Katherine Kurtz
                                            and
                                            > > (*early*) Judith Tarr.
                                            > >
                                            > > Then someone asked for book recs with strong female characters and
                                            > Wendy
                                            > > rec'd Burying the Shadow by Storm Constantine, Wild Seed and
                                            > Lilith's Brood
                                            > > by Octavia Butler. Call me odd, but I tend to veer from books
                                            > "starring"
                                            > > female characters. I look for novels featuring male friendships
                                            and
                                            > > relationships. Hence my less than enthusiastic reaction to the
                                            Tamir
                                            > novels,
                                            > > however ambiguous.
                                            > >
                                            > > I do, however, think that women write male relationship stories
                                            > better than
                                            > > male writers (at least, the male relationships *I* like).
                                            > >
                                            > > Kelly
                                          • silverhawk9p9
                                            I ve got one. Its not fantasy, and it s a simple to read, but Rosemary Sutcliff s books are pretty good. She writes historical fiction about the life and times
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Apr 22, 2005
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                                              I've got one. Its not fantasy, and it's a simple to read, but
                                              Rosemary Sutcliff's books are pretty good. She writes historical
                                              fiction about the life and times of various people around the roman
                                              empire. The one I can think of off the top of my head is the Eagle
                                              of the Ninth.

                                              --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "queenlyzzie04" <elyzabethm@h...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              > I have another suggestion, I can't believe I forgot this author
                                              since
                                              > her work was some of the first to get me interested in this genre--
                                              -
                                              > Alice Borchardt. She's Anne Rice's sister and she has written two
                                              > very interesting series' with female leads. What actually remimded
                                              me
                                              > of her just now is your "cybername". There's the shapeshifter
                                              series
                                              > (The Silver Wolf, Night of the Wolf, and The Wolf King) and a
                                              series
                                              > that relates to those characters but is called the Guinevere
                                              series
                                              > (The Dragon Queen, and the Raven Warrior) the third book still has
                                              > not come out though :( Both of these story lines mix alot of sci-
                                              fi
                                              > with historical fiction and it really worked, al least for me.
                                            • Paula Lieberman
                                              ... From: Kelly Kurtz ... Brood ... novels, Some suggestions, then: possible: Catchtrap, by Marion Zimmer Bradley, abouta couple of
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Apr 22, 2005
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                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: "Kelly Kurtz" <KellyKurtz@...>


                                                >
                                                > Then someone asked for book recs with strong female characters and Wendy
                                                > rec'd Burying the Shadow by Storm Constantine, Wild Seed and Lilith's
                                                Brood
                                                > by Octavia Butler. Call me odd, but I tend to veer from books "starring"
                                                > female characters. I look for novels featuring male friendships and
                                                > relationships. Hence my less than enthusiastic reaction to the Tamir
                                                novels,

                                                Some suggestions, then:

                                                possible: Catchtrap, by Marion Zimmer Bradley, abouta couple of I think
                                                trapeze artists. I haven't personally read it, I note.

                                                Swordpoint, by Ellen Kushner

                                                Points of.. books by Barnett and Scott

                                                A Different Light, by Elizabeth Lynn

                                                The latest Karin Lowachee novel -- but the first two should be read first...

                                                the Starship Shenandoah series by Roland Green, although it has a giant
                                                ensemble cast, and the male-male pairings are few.. they -are- there,
                                                though. But mostly, the characters are characters--some are heterosexual,
                                                some homosexual, some bisexual, some survive, some don't, some get promoted,
                                                some depart the military, some defect....
                                              • Wendy Darling
                                                Kelly, I d like to just add that for a long time I *too* veered away from any books starring female characters. Do you know why? Because the characters
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Apr 23, 2005
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                                                  Kelly,

                                                  I'd like to just add that for a long time I *too* veered away from any
                                                  books "starring" female characters. Do you know why? Because the
                                                  characters annoyed the crap out of me by being weak, whiny, overly
                                                  concerned with men, having "sensitivity" as their "power" (think
                                                  Dianna Troi from ST:TNG), etc. I found it hard to relate to them b/c
                                                  they reminded me of girls I grew up with or went to college with who I
                                                  *just* don't understand! Now the women in the books I rec'd, on the
                                                  other hand, are women who are a lot more like me, i.e. strong, smart,
                                                  talented, but at the same time, still women. Sure, obviously they
                                                  don't engage in male bonding or have slashy affairs (well, actually a
                                                  few are bi) but they're still outstanding characters.

                                                  Wendy

                                                  --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "Kelly Kurtz" <KellyKurtz@h...> wrote:
                                                  > Then someone asked for book recs with strong
                                                  > female characters and Wendy rec'd Burying the
                                                  > Shadow by Storm Constantine, Wild Seed and Lilith's Brood
                                                  > by Octavia Butler. Call me odd, but I tend to veer from books
                                                  > "starring" female characters.
                                                • Katharina Konig
                                                  Hi when you like to read about female caracters, try Robin Hoob. Mad Ship, Ship of Destiny another I forget the English name. Tthe story is mostley about a
                                                  Message 24 of 25 , Apr 30, 2005
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                                                    Hi

                                                    when you like to read about female caracters, try Robin Hoob. Mad Ship, Ship of Destiny another I forget the English name. Tthe story is mostley about a young woman living on a ship. It´s good, but to tell you honestley it´s not as good as books from Lynn Flewelling. I personally think that the best books from her are The royal assasin, the assasines apprentice and the Trilogy The golden fool and so on. Sorry I don´t remember the English names, but you shouldn´t have problems finding them.



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                                                  • Karyn Adamson
                                                    I enjoyed these books also but they are long. And those are the English names. ... From: Katharina Konig To:
                                                    Message 25 of 25 , Apr 30, 2005
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                                                      I enjoyed these books also but they are long. And those are the English
                                                      names.

                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      From: "Katharina Konig" <iamaddictedtoporn@...>
                                                      To: <Flewelling@yahoogroups.com>
                                                      Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2005 9:58 AM
                                                      Subject: Re: [Flewelling] Agonising over Tamir book III





                                                      Hi

                                                      when you like to read about female caracters, try Robin Hoob. Mad Ship, Ship
                                                      of Destiny another I forget the English name. Tthe story is mostley about a
                                                      young woman living on a ship. It´s good, but to tell you honestley it´s not
                                                      as good as books from Lynn Flewelling. I personally think that the best
                                                      books from her are The royal assasin, the assasines apprentice and the
                                                      Trilogy The golden fool and so on. Sorry I don´t remember the English names,
                                                      but you shouldn´t have problems finding them.



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