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Pagan Celebration? was - the halloween dilemma

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  • Christine Speakman
    Writing quickly as I m heading to work....but, my understanding of Halloween is that it is actually the modern and commercialised tradition of an old pagan
    Message 1 of 17 , Nov 1, 2004
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      Writing quickly as I'm heading to work....but, my understanding of
      Halloween is that it is actually the modern and commercialised tradition of
      an old pagan celebration.

      Something about All Hollow Eve's and our world and the spirit world is
      closer to each other at this night than any other night. Doesn't Mexico
      (not sure of any other Spanish speaking culture, if I'm even using the
      correct words) hold celebrations at family cemeteries at this time of year?
      Bringing favourite foods and items of their dead relatives with them.

      Then just like most pagan celebrations somewhere someone turned them around
      and used them in a way acceptable to their way of thinking (Christianity?)

      Chris...who could have this all confused, but if I remember might just look
      this up for my own satisfaction.

      -----Original Message-----
      From: noerml [mailto:noerml@...]
      Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 12:46 PM
      To: Flewelling@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [Flewelling] the halloween dilemma



      So we all know Halloween... We know about tricks or treats... we know
      it as an English and consequently also as an American custom. We all
      love the scarry umpkin lanterns, and i personally became to love the snoopy
      comic strips about halloween :P
    • noerml
      ... Well that would be All Saints. We in Germany celebrate that as well. I like it because our cemetery is always so beautiful at that time, especially at
      Message 2 of 17 , Nov 1, 2004
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        >Doesn't Mexico
        >(not sure of any other Spanish speaking culture, if I'm even using the
        >correct words) hold celebrations at family cemeteries at this time of year?
        >Bringing favourite foods and items of their dead relatives with them.
        >Then just like most pagan celebrations somewhere someone turned them around
        >and used them in a way acceptable to their way of thinking (Christianity?)

        Well that would be All Saints. We in Germany celebrate that as well. I like it
        because our cemetery is always so beautiful at that time, especially at night,
        with all the candles burning :D

        noerml

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Anja Arendt
        Supposedly Halloween is partly derived from the celtic Samhain, which is the Night of the Dead or something, meaning, as someone else mentioned, that the
        Message 3 of 17 , Nov 1, 2004
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          Supposedly Halloween is partly derived from the celtic Samhain, which
          is the Night of the Dead or something, meaning, as someone else
          mentioned, that the spirit world and the real world are closer than
          usual.

          I find it a bit strange to have kids doing their trick or treat tour
          now, we certainly were not prepared for it. Especially since there is
          St. Martin's day coming up soon, which is the traditional candy day for
          kids here, but there they walk about with lanterns and earn their candy
          by singing St. Martin songs. I find that much nicer.




          Am 01.11.2004 um 14:41 schrieb noerml:

          >
          >> Doesn't Mexico
          >> (not sure of any other Spanish speaking culture, if I'm even using the
          >> correct words) hold celebrations at family cemeteries at this time of
          >> year?
          >> Bringing favourite foods and items of their dead relatives with them.
          >> Then just like most pagan celebrations somewhere someone turned them
          >> around
          >> and used them in a way acceptable to their way of thinking
          >> (Christianity?)
          >
          > Well that would be All Saints. We in Germany celebrate that as well. I
          > like it
          > because our cemetery is always so beautiful at that time, especially
          > at night,
          > with all the candles burning :D
          >
          > noerml
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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        • Gaile Pohlhaus
          Actually the celebration is over 2500 years old. It got Christianized when Christianity moved into the Celtic regions Gaile ... [Non-text portions of this
          Message 4 of 17 , Nov 1, 2004
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            Actually the celebration is over 2500 years old. It got Christianized
            when Christianity moved into the Celtic regions
            Gaile

            Christine Speakman wrote:

            > Writing quickly as I'm heading to work....but, my understanding of
            > Halloween is that it is actually the modern and commercialised
            > tradition of
            > an old pagan celebration.
            >
            > Something about All Hollow Eve's and our world and the spirit world is
            > closer to each other at this night than any other night. Doesn't Mexico
            > (not sure of any other Spanish speaking culture, if I'm even using the
            > correct words) hold celebrations at family cemeteries at this time of
            > year?
            > Bringing favourite foods and items of their dead relatives with them.
            >
            > Then just like most pagan celebrations somewhere someone turned them
            > around
            > and used them in a way acceptable to their way of thinking (Christianity?)
            >
            > Chris...who could have this all confused, but if I remember might just
            > look
            > this up for my own satisfaction.
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: noerml [mailto:noerml@...]
            > Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 12:46 PM
            > To: Flewelling@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [Flewelling] the halloween dilemma
            >
            >
            >
            > So we all know Halloween... We know about tricks or treats... we know
            > it as an English and consequently also as an American custom. We all
            > love the scarry umpkin lanterns, and i personally became to love the
            > snoopy
            > comic strips about halloween :P
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Lynn's official web-site - www.sff.net/people/Lynn.Flewelling
            >
            > Post message: Flewelling@yahoogroups.com
            > Subscribe: Flewelling-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > Unsubscribe: Flewelling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > List owner: Flewelling-owner@yahoogroups.com
            > URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Flewelling
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          • Lynn Cheshire
            Good page about Sanhain: http://www.celticspirit.org/samhain.htm ^_^ -- ~Lynn Cheshire AIM: Eirynh Website: http://fangirl.mirrorrorrim.net LiveJournal:
            Message 5 of 17 , Nov 1, 2004
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              Good page about Sanhain:

              http://www.celticspirit.org/samhain.htm

              ^_^


              --
              ~Lynn Cheshire
              AIM: Eirynh
              Website: http://fangirl.mirrorrorrim.net
              LiveJournal: http://penandsword.livejournal.com
              DeviantART: http://lynncheshire.deviantart.com/
            • Christine Speakman
              I ve never been to one, and don t even know if anywhere in Hamilton Canada that does this, but would love to see it at least once. Chris ... From: noerml
              Message 6 of 17 , Nov 1, 2004
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                I've never been to one, and don't even know if anywhere in Hamilton Canada
                that does this, but would love to see it at least once.

                Chris

                -----Original Message-----
                From: noerml [mailto:noerml@...]

                Well that would be All Saints. We in Germany celebrate that as well. I like
                it
                because our cemetery is always so beautiful at that time, especially at
                night,
                with all the candles burning :D

                noerml
              • Christine Speakman
                Would explain more about St. Martin s Day for me, please. Chris ... From: Firesong@web.de [mailto:Firesong@web.de] I find it a bit strange to have kids doing
                Message 7 of 17 , Nov 1, 2004
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                  Would explain more about St. Martin's Day for me, please.

                  Chris

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Firesong@... [mailto:Firesong@...]

                  I find it a bit strange to have kids doing their trick or treat tour
                  now, we certainly were not prepared for it. Especially since there is
                  St. Martin's day coming up soon, which is the traditional candy day for
                  kids here, but there they walk about with lanterns and earn their candy
                  by singing St. Martin songs. I find that much nicer.
                • Christine Speakman
                  Do you know how much it has changed or not over the centuries? Chris...wondering out loud tonight ... From: Gaile Pohlhaus
                  Message 8 of 17 , Nov 1, 2004
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                    Do you know how much it has changed or not over the centuries?

                    Chris...wondering out loud tonight

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Gaile Pohlhaus [mailto:gaile.pohlhaus@...]

                    Actually the celebration is over 2500 years old. It got Christianized
                    when Christianity moved into the Celtic regions
                    Gaile
                  • jjarbanas
                    ... Thanks for the link, Lynn. What lovely imagery. Jill
                    Message 9 of 17 , Nov 1, 2004
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                      --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, Lynn Cheshire <pyrefox@g...> wrote:
                      > Good page about Sanhain:
                      >
                      > http://www.celticspirit.org/samhain.htmp://lynncheshire.deviantart.com/

                      Thanks for the link, Lynn. What lovely imagery.

                      Jill
                    • Serena
                      The Mexicans celebrate the Day of the Dead, it may be like All Saints. Its like Halloween in that people dress up like skeletons and devils, but its supposed
                      Message 10 of 17 , Nov 2, 2004
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                        The Mexicans celebrate the Day of the Dead, it may be like All Saints. Its like Halloween in that people dress up like skeletons and devils, but its supposed to be much more joyful, where the only time in the year you can rejoin those loved ones you have lost.
                        Saw a doco on Halloween on the 31st, which is weird as in Australia we don't celebrate anything like this, just watch the American horror movies which come out. it posed that there was a rise in interest in Celtic myths and history in the States as they were dying out in Britain. Perhaps due to so much of folklore and the rest being exported over to the States and large Irish immigrant population? No idea but there is quite a few recent fantasy authors that have picked up this theme, Faerie Tale by Raymond Feist, Charles de Lint, Elizabeth Hand etc. where the old Celtic myths have been relocated in the American landscape.

                        Christine Speakman <speakpc@...> wrote:
                        Writing quickly as I'm heading to work....but, my understanding of
                        Halloween is that it is actually the modern and commercialised tradition of
                        an old pagan celebration.

                        Something about All Hollow Eve's and our world and the spirit world is
                        closer to each other at this night than any other night. Doesn't Mexico
                        (not sure of any other Spanish speaking culture, if I'm even using the
                        correct words) hold celebrations at family cemeteries at this time of year?
                        Bringing favourite foods and items of their dead relatives with them.

                        Then just like most pagan celebrations somewhere someone turned them around
                        and used them in a way acceptable to their way of thinking (Christianity?)

                        Chris...who could have this all confused, but if I remember might just look
                        this up for my own satisfaction.

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: noerml [mailto:noerml@...]
                        Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 12:46 PM
                        To: Flewelling@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [Flewelling] the halloween dilemma



                        So we all know Halloween... We know about tricks or treats... we know
                        it as an English and consequently also as an American custom. We all
                        love the scarry umpkin lanterns, and i personally became to love the snoopy
                        comic strips about halloween :P







                        Lynn's official web-site - www.sff.net/people/Lynn.Flewelling

                        Post message: Flewelling@yahoogroups.com
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                      • linnet4227
                        Well to put my 2 cents worth in as a bad lapsed catholic. I seem to remember waaay back in scripture lessons being taught that on the day of all souls -
                        Message 11 of 17 , Nov 2, 2004
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                          Well to put my 2 cents worth in as a bad lapsed catholic. I seem to
                          remember waaay back in scripture lessons being taught that on the
                          day of all souls - halloween (all hallows eve)you pray for all those
                          who've passed and then it's followed the day after by the day of all
                          saints where more praying is involved.

                          No halloween celebrations here though - not even a trick or treater
                          or party of any kind. I guess it seems more of an american tradition
                          like thanksgiving.

                          I like the idea of all those lollies though :)

                          Linnet

                          In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, Serena <bodhicat2000@y...> wrote:
                          > The Mexicans celebrate the Day of the Dead, it may be like All
                          Saints. Its like Halloween in that people dress up like skeletons
                          and devils, but its supposed to be much more joyful, where the only
                          time in the year you can rejoin those loved ones you have lost.
                          > Saw a doco on Halloween on the 31st, which is weird as in
                          Australia we don't celebrate anything like this, just watch the
                          American horror movies which come out. it posed that there was a
                          rise in interest in Celtic myths and history in the States as they
                          were dying out in Britain. Perhaps due to so much of folklore and
                          the rest being exported over to the States and large Irish immigrant
                          population? No idea but there is quite a few recent fantasy authors
                          that have picked up this theme, Faerie Tale by Raymond Feist,
                          Charles de Lint, Elizabeth Hand etc. where the old Celtic myths have
                          been relocated in the American landscape.
                          >
                          > Christine Speakman <speakpc@m...> wrote:
                          > Writing quickly as I'm heading to work....but, my understanding of
                          > Halloween is that it is actually the modern and commercialised
                          tradition of
                          > an old pagan celebration.
                          >
                          > Something about All Hollow Eve's and our world and the spirit
                          world is
                          > closer to each other at this night than any other night. Doesn't
                          Mexico
                          > (not sure of any other Spanish speaking culture, if I'm even using
                          the
                          > correct words) hold celebrations at family cemeteries at this time
                          of year?
                          > Bringing favourite foods and items of their dead relatives with
                          them.
                          >
                          > Then just like most pagan celebrations somewhere someone turned
                          them around
                          > and used them in a way acceptable to their way of thinking
                          (Christianity?)
                          >
                          > Chris...who could have this all confused, but if I remember might
                          just look
                          > this up for my own satisfaction.
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: noerml [mailto:noerml@u...]
                          > Sent: Sunday, October 31, 2004 12:46 PM
                          > To: Flewelling@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [Flewelling] the halloween dilemma
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > So we all know Halloween... We know about tricks or treats... we
                          know
                          > it as an English and consequently also as an American custom. We
                          all
                          > love the scarry umpkin lanterns, and i personally became to love
                          the snoopy
                          > comic strips about halloween :P
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Lynn's official web-site - www.sff.net/people/Lynn.Flewelling
                          >
                          > Post message: Flewelling@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subscribe: Flewelling-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > Unsubscribe: Flewelling-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > List owner: Flewelling-owner@yahoogroups.com
                          > URL to this page: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Flewelling
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                          >
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                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          > To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                          Service.
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                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > Find local movie times and trailers on Yahoo! Movies.
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Anja Arendt
                          St. Martin s Day is on 11th of November. St. Martin was a Roman soldier in Hungary in the 4th century, who became a bishop later in his life. He dedicated his
                          Message 12 of 17 , Nov 2, 2004
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                            St. Martin's Day is on 11th of November. St. Martin was a Roman
                            soldier in Hungary in the 4th century, who became a bishop later in his
                            life. He dedicated his life to helping the poor.

                            The legend attached to him is that he rode out in one winter night and
                            came upon a beggar who was half dead of the cold. He cut his cloak in
                            half with his sword and gave one half to the beggar.

                            So St. Martin's Day is about sharing with people who have less, who are
                            out in the cold. And as I said, here in Germany the kids go out singing
                            special songs,with their lanterns, and people give them candy and fruit
                            or a bit of money.

                            Fire
                          • Trevor
                            Obviously there are some times of the year with holidays corresponding in different cultures. The Mexican Día de los Muertos (Day of the Dead) for instance,
                            Message 13 of 17 , Nov 2, 2004
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                              Obviously there are some times of the year with holidays
                              corresponding in different cultures. The Mexican Día de los Muertos
                              (Day of the Dead) for instance, while it falls at the same time as
                              these other holidays, has been a tradition there since Aztec times.
                              And it's quite interesting to see all the art and festivities, that
                              do have a very Aztec feel. Another interesting thing, in the modern
                              Irish language, Samhain is the word for November. So this is just
                              another one of those times of the year that many cultures celebrate
                              simultaneously...
                            • Purchase Family
                              This is a great tale. I d not heard of St Martin before. Somehow makes the whole thing more meaningful. Nigel ... From: Anja Arendt To:
                              Message 14 of 17 , Nov 2, 2004
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                                This is a great tale. I'd not heard of St Martin before. Somehow makes the whole thing more meaningful.

                                Nigel
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Anja Arendt
                                To: Flewelling@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 11:43 PM
                                Subject: Re: [Flewelling] Pagan Celebration? was - the halloween dilemma


                                St. Martin's Day is on 11th of November. St. Martin was a Roman
                                soldier in Hungary in the 4th century, who became a bishop later in his
                                life. He dedicated his life to helping the poor.

                                The legend attached to him is that he rode out in one winter night and
                                came upon a beggar who was half dead of the cold. He cut his cloak in
                                half with his sword and gave one half to the beggar.

                                So St. Martin's Day is about sharing with people who have less, who are
                                out in the cold. And as I said, here in Germany the kids go out singing
                                special songs,with their lanterns, and people give them candy and fruit
                                or a bit of money.

                                Fire





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                              • Alex Kwan
                                Hello, From: noerml ... Oh, yes, that s always true. And weirdly enough, Halloween totally exploded across Hong Kong for the last two years,
                                Message 15 of 17 , Nov 3, 2004
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                                  Hello,

                                  From: "noerml" <noerml@...>
                                  > What strikes me most is, that it'S all for the money ;-) They are ever
                                  > searching
                                  > for a new way to get your money ^^

                                  Oh, yes, that's always true.

                                  And weirdly enough, Halloween totally exploded across Hong Kong for the last
                                  two years, too. It used to be that only the non-Chinese crowd (and the
                                  overseas-born Chinese) would celebrate it by dressing up and partying at
                                  private clubs at Lan Gwai Fong (the in-spot for bars and dance clubs, though
                                  only foreigners and their admirers go there regularly). But this year,
                                  everyone with their kids and everything (and even my co-workers) was at Lan
                                  Gwai Fong, crowding the streets and making both the police and the regulars
                                  extremely unhappy (Lan Gwai Fong is an L-shaped one way street; people have
                                  been crushed to death there during New Years because they fell down and the
                                  crowd didn't notice).

                                  little Alex
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