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Re: Garth Nix (was: Female protagonist?)

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  • Silvia Sellerio
    Hey, don t get me wrong - I agree with the principles MZB s trying to express. I am, after all, a woman myself, so stay assured that I m very involved in equal
    Message 1 of 23 , Oct 3, 2004
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      Hey, don't get me wrong - I agree with the principles MZB's trying to
      express. I am, after all, a woman myself, so stay assured that I'm very
      involved in equal opportunities issues and I'm all in favour of gay rights,
      too.
      I appreciate what MZB does through her writing, in a sense... only, as an
      author you can convey your ideas subtly and let the reader to judge by
      him/herself, or you can hammer them into your reader's brain with a 100 tons
      mallet.
      I can't help feeling that MZB falls into the second category. ^__^

      Silvia
      -----------
      www.vidja.tk

      > What, Regis Hastur and Danilo Syristis in various Darkover over books and
      > their homosexual relationship is a feminist rant? Heritage of Hastur has
      > the lead/viewpoint being male. The Bloody Sun has a male protagonist,
      in
      > both the original and revised forms. Two to Conquer the leads are male.
      > Doorway through Space [not really a Darkover book, but...] the protagonist
      > is male. The pre-1970s books of Bradley are above average MALE mostly
      > adventure stores, who needs steekeen wimmen except as trophies for hero to
      > win A boy from Earth and Kennard Alton, is it, go off on on adventures on
      > Darkover [can't remember the name of the book at the moment]. (Boys too
      > young for wimmen in this book). Sword of Aldones, Kennard Alton had
      exiled
      > himself from Darkover, comes home to big mess and Pyrrhic victories occur.
      > Winds of Darkover, man from Earth gets involved in Darkover bloodfeud war
      > and finds the love of his life. Etc.
      >
      > Came the 1970s and MZB got revelations. Being a divorced women with
      small
      > kids to feed and dependent solely on her writing income, sometimes having
      > cooked with canned dogfood for meat because it was -cheap-, and gradually
      > comeing up the econimic one day she realized that her images of Sharra the
      > Chained goddess, were autobiographical symbols, that she had virtual
      > shackles on and was chained, being a women, and from that sprang books
      like
      > The Forbidden Tower, The Shattered Chain, Thendara House....
      >
      > It's not the 1970s now. I grew up in the days when there were -not-
      female
      > astronauts, no women heading up Fortune 500 companies (not that there are
      > that many now...), when there were -laws- that prevent women from working
      in
      > the most lucractive and high prestige jobs, when Harvard and Princeton and
      > Yale and all the US military academies and the Citadel and Texas A&M etc.
      > were all -male- and the networking that got young -men- jobs up the ladder
      > to fame and fortune and prestige in the business and political worlds,
      > were -locked- and blocked against women, when the Locke-Ober restaurant
      in
      > Boston, hangout of -male- politicians was men-only. Women were prohibited
      > from any military cockpit even transport planes,. they were prohibited
      from
      > "combat" positions in the US military exeept for the curious hypocrisy
      that
      > female nursers were present in hostile fire zone and that was perfectly
      > reasonable to all the male hypocrites, "unarmed noncombatant VICTIM woman
      > can be there, but no woman is to ever be allowed to HAVE a weapon or be
      > training in using it or use it to ever defend herself, much less anyone
      > else. Women aren't -like- that, they are helpless doormat delicate
      > blossomsl..." barf, barf, BARF! There were laws limiting the number of
      > hours a woman could work in a day, there were laws requiring women to
      change
      > their last names to their husband's name when marrying --Vera Kistiawsky,
      a
      > physicist with a lot of publications as "Vera Kistiakowsky" had to go to
      > court and sue to keep using the name "Vera Kistiakowsky."
      >
      > There were lots of other impermeable obstacles. Why SHOULDN'T women have
      > been angry as being locked in purdah and kept out of having power and
      > influence and wealth and self-determination? Women want the same rights
      > for being free people as -men- do, we are NOT a different species! And
      each
      > PERSON wants her or his OWN life, and not to be "since you are a member of
      > group X, this is what your life is going to be, like it or not. You're X,
      > therefore...."
    • Paula Lieberman
      ... From: Silvia Sellerio ... rights, ... tons ... There s a context involved there, though, that was very different than that of
      Message 2 of 23 , Oct 3, 2004
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Silvia Sellerio" <sandgirl@...>


        >
        > Hey, don't get me wrong - I agree with the principles MZB's trying to
        > express. I am, after all, a woman myself, so stay assured that I'm very
        > involved in equal opportunities issues and I'm all in favour of gay
        rights,
        > too.
        > I appreciate what MZB does through her writing, in a sense... only, as an
        > author you can convey your ideas subtly and let the reader to judge by
        > him/herself, or you can hammer them into your reader's brain with a 100
        tons
        > mallet.
        > I can't help feeling that MZB falls into the second category. ^__^
        >

        There's a context involved there, though, that was very different than that
        of contemporary USA. She wrote Thendara House and the Shatterd Chain and
        Forbidden Tower and Heritage of Hastur starting in the late 1970s into the
        1980s. The Bloody Sun rewrite is copyright 1979.

        "Subtlely" was in inapplicable back then, it was the era of "How DARE you
        FEMINAZIS be unnatural creature who have any business or interests other
        than or beyond Kinder, Kuche, Kirche? How dare you demand a equal pay for
        equal work and a executive jobs in business and management instead of low
        prestige low paid subordinate underling jobs? Women don't belong in
        cockpits, or executive suites, or state and federal legislators, or law
        firms as lawyers or hospitals as MDs, education as professors, labs as
        scientists or engineers, you are all by nature -nurturers- and subordinates,
        your natural role is nurse, teacher of young children, baby minder,
        clerk-secretary dong the typing and stenography for business-men-, or retail
        clerk and NOT manager. How dare you think you should be promoted instead of
        training young men with less experience than you to be your boss and be paid
        three times what you earn?! You belong in a pink ghetto, and don't forget
        it!"

        Subtlety didn't do it, not to the willfully blind and deaf, and those so
        totally bought into the status quo. And those who were waking up and saying,
        "Wait a minute, WHY have I been -shackled- all these years, and how do break
        OUT of this?! And the wakeup call to the other side, "Hey jerk, women are
        PEOPLE, not domestic slaves!"

        > Silvia
        > -----------
        > www.vidja.tk
        >
        > > What, Regis Hastur and Danilo Syristis in various Darkover over books
        and
        > > their homosexual relationship is a feminist rant? Heritage of Hastur
        has
        > > the lead/viewpoint being male. The Bloody Sun has a male protagonist,
        > in
        > > both the original and revised forms. Two to Conquer the leads are male.
        > > Doorway through Space [not really a Darkover book, but...] the
        protagonist
        > > is male. The pre-1970s books of Bradley are above average MALE mostly
        > > adventure stores, who needs steekeen wimmen except as trophies for hero
        to
        > > win A boy from Earth and Kennard Alton, is it, go off on on adventures
        on
        > > Darkover [can't remember the name of the book at the moment]. (Boys too
        > > young for wimmen in this book). Sword of Aldones, Kennard Alton had
        > exiled
        > > himself from Darkover, comes home to big mess and Pyrrhic victories
        occur.
        > > Winds of Darkover, man from Earth gets involved in Darkover bloodfeud
        war
        > > and finds the love of his life. Etc.
        > >
        > > Came the 1970s and MZB got revelations. Being a divorced women with
        > small
        > > kids to feed and dependent solely on her writing income, sometimes
        having
        > > cooked with canned dogfood for meat because it was -cheap-, and
        gradually
        > > comeing up the econimic one day she realized that her images of Sharra
        the
        > > Chained goddess, were autobiographical symbols, that she had virtual
        > > shackles on and was chained, being a women, and from that sprang books
        > like
        > > The Forbidden Tower, The Shattered Chain, Thendara House....
        > >
        > > It's not the 1970s now. I grew up in the days when there were -not-
        > female
        > > astronauts, no women heading up Fortune 500 companies (not that there
        are
        > > that many now...), when there were -laws- that prevent women from
        working
        > in
        > > the most lucractive and high prestige jobs, when Harvard and Princeton
        and
        > > Yale and all the US military academies and the Citadel and Texas A&M
        etc.
        > > were all -male- and the networking that got young -men- jobs up the
        ladder
        > > to fame and fortune and prestige in the business and political worlds,
        > > were -locked- and blocked against women, when the Locke-Ober restaurant
        > in
        > > Boston, hangout of -male- politicians was men-only. Women were
        prohibited
        > > from any military cockpit even transport planes,. they were prohibited
        > from
        > > "combat" positions in the US military exeept for the curious hypocrisy
        > that
        > > female nursers were present in hostile fire zone and that was perfectly
        > > reasonable to all the male hypocrites, "unarmed noncombatant VICTIM
        woman
        > > can be there, but no woman is to ever be allowed to HAVE a weapon or be
        > > training in using it or use it to ever defend herself, much less anyone
        > > else. Women aren't -like- that, they are helpless doormat delicate
        > > blossomsl..." barf, barf, BARF! There were laws limiting the number of
        > > hours a woman could work in a day, there were laws requiring women to
        > change
        > > their last names to their husband's name when marrying --Vera
        Kistiawsky,
        > a
        > > physicist with a lot of publications as "Vera Kistiakowsky" had to go to
        > > court and sue to keep using the name "Vera Kistiakowsky."
        > >
        > > There were lots of other impermeable obstacles. Why SHOULDN'T women
        have
        > > been angry as being locked in purdah and kept out of having power and
        > > influence and wealth and self-determination? Women want the same
        rights
        > > for being free people as -men- do, we are NOT a different species! And
        > each
        > > PERSON wants her or his OWN life, and not to be "since you are a member
        of
        > > group X, this is what your life is going to be, like it or not. You're
        X,
        > > therefore...."
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Lynn's official web-site - www.sff.net/people/Lynn.Flewelling
        >
        > Post message: Flewelling@yahoogroups.com
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      • noerml
        ... While i am willing to accept your explenation why she did that in the 70 ies, i cannot accept it in general. I wasn t walking upon this world back then so
        Message 3 of 23 , Oct 3, 2004
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          >Paula Lieberman wrote
          >Subtlety didn't do it, not to the willfully blind and deaf, and those so
          >totally bought into the status quo. And those who were waking up and saying,
          >"Wait a minute, WHY have I been -shackled- all these years, and how do break
          >OUT of this?! And the wakeup call to the other side, "Hey jerk, women are
          >PEOPLE, not domestic slaves!"


          While i am willing to accept your explenation why she did that in the 70'ies, i cannot accept it in general. I wasn't walking
          upon this world back then so i couldn't tell if that's the truth ;-)
          BUT when did MZB die? 97? or something like that. Anyways she was still working on her Darkover novels back in the 90ies, but still
          clinged to that - in my opinion- way overdone feminist style. If what you say was true, she should have changed, how did someone
          put it in a previous mail, to a "more subtle style".
          Don't take me wrong, I enjoyed reading her books at one time, but it really did get boring. Which i think is in a way a waste?
          Also one could argue what is more effective? Working subtle, weaving a story, so that the message conveyed to the reader only
          slowly but pleasantly settles in the readers mind, or hammering it in? BOOM BOOM BOOM! Since i am like the most tolerant
          guy there is, it of course did not change my mind, but hm... At parts i felt like: "hey biatch, shut the fuck up and go cooking!"

          noerml - thinking this is kind of a tedious topic

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Paula Lieberman
          ... From: noerml MZB s last several solo books she was writing with brain damage from strokes, someone who d known her for decades told me
          Message 4 of 23 , Oct 3, 2004
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            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "noerml" <noerml@...>



            MZB's last several solo books she was writing with brain damage from
            strokes, someone who'd known her for decades told me that for example
            pre-strokes she'd been able to play piano very well, after the strokes she
            was no longer able to play music anymore.

            > >Paula Lieberman wrote
            > >Subtlety didn't do it, not to the willfully blind and deaf, and those so
            > >totally bought into the status quo. And those who were waking up and
            saying,
            > >"Wait a minute, WHY have I been -shackled- all these years, and how do
            break
            > >OUT of this?! And the wakeup call to the other side, "Hey jerk, women are
            > >PEOPLE, not domestic slaves!"
            >
            >
            > While i am willing to accept your explenation why she did that in the
            70'ies, i cannot accept it in general. I wasn't walking
            > upon this world back then so i couldn't tell if that's the truth ;-)
            > BUT when did MZB die? 97? or something like that. Anyways she was still
            working on her Darkover novels back in the 90ies, but still
            > clinged to that - in my opinion- way overdone feminist style. If what you
            say was true, she should have changed, how did someone
            > put it in a previous mail, to a "more subtle style".

            She was writing what she -wanted- to write, and not to please her
            critics.... she got criticized in the same books, by different people, for
            being too and not enough feminist. Quite clearly what she was writing in her
            last couple decades makes -you- uncomfortable.... but other people were
            quite eager and willing to buy and read it.

            > Don't take me wrong, I enjoyed reading her books at one time, but it
            really did get boring. Which i think is in a way a waste?

            Again, that's -you-. Note that discussion about Mercedes Lackey's work
            here, that some people have said they're "outgrown" it--but there are lots
            and lots and lots of other people who very eagerly await each new book of
            hers.

            Different people have different tastes and tolerances.

            > Also one could argue what is more effective? Working subtle, weaving a
            story, so that the message conveyed to the reader only
            > slowly but pleasantly settles in the readers mind, or hammering it in?
            BOOM BOOM BOOM! Since i am like the most tolerant

            Again, what works on other people and what works on you, aren't necessarily
            the same. There are people I know who adore Laurell K. Hamilton's work: I
            was teasing a fellow NESFA member today with NESFA's ARC of Incubus Dreams,
            the LKH book which just came out--the other person had borrowed it from then
            NESFA Library a week and a half ago or so, and I borrowed it from her last
            Sunday at the NESFA Other Meeting which was at her place to read it,
            promising to give it back to her today at the NESFA Business Meeting. When
            I brought it into the Clubhouse I waved it in front of her just out of her
            reach to tease her a bit, for a minute or so. There are other people who
            regard LKH books as porn and look down upon it.... different people,
            different tastes and standards. If you get easily squicked by kinky, stay
            away from her work. But that's also true of a lot of -other- vampire and
            dark fantasy work.
            \
            > guy there is, it of course did not change my mind, but hm... At parts i
            felt like: "hey biatch, shut the fuck up and go cooking!"

            Huh???

            >
            > noerml - thinking this is kind of a tedious topic
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Lynn's official web-site - www.sff.net/people/Lynn.Flewelling
            >
            > Post message: Flewelling@yahoogroups.com
            > Subscribe: Flewelling-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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          • Firesong
            It is already a few years ago that I read the last books by MZB, but I found that her later stuff was a lot less feminist. I only read the 3 books that are at
            Message 5 of 23 , Oct 4, 2004
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              It is already a few years ago that I read the last books by MZB, but I
              found that her later stuff was a lot less feminist. I only read the 3
              books that are at the end of the chronology, Traitor's Sun etc, they
              were more about politics than feminism, as far as I remember.

              I used to be MZB's biggest fan when I was a teen. I can't read the
              stuff like I used to anymore, but I still hold her dear in my memory.

              Fire

              On 3. Oct 2004, at 19:16 Uhr, noerml wrote:

              > BUT when did MZB die? 97? or something like that. Anyways she was
              > still working on her Darkover novels back in the 90ies, but still
              > clinged to that - in my opinion- way overdone feminist style. If what
              > you say was true, she should have changed, how did someone
              > put it in a previous mail, to a "more subtle style".
              >
              ------------------------------------------
              "Buttercup: We'll never survive.
              Westley: Nonsense, you only say that because nobody ever has.
              (The Princess Bride)



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Adrienne Rose (Rie Sheridan)
              Noerml, If you think a topic is boring, don t read messages with the subject line. But if it is still continuing, either a) people are still interested or b)
              Message 6 of 23 , Oct 4, 2004
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                Noerml,

                If you think a topic is boring, don't read messages with
                the subject line. But if it is still continuing, either

                a) people are still interested
                or
                b) they forgot to chang the subject line

                either way, tolerate other people's taste. What bores you
                may be very interesting to others. (not ME particularly,
                but some people) :)

                Rie

                > noerml - thinking this is kind of a tedious topic
                >


                =====

                Rie Sheridan Rose -- the Bardabee Poet


                Visit me at http://www.riewriter.com
                Published with LTDBooks, Echelon, SunnySide Up, Mundania, Double Dragon
              • noerml
                ... thx Rie.. but that s why i said not boring but tedious ^^ but maybe i should have put it more clearly... my biggest mistake, i always _always_ asume
                Message 7 of 23 , Oct 4, 2004
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                  >either way, tolerate other people's taste. What bores you
                  >may be very interesting to others. (not ME particularly,
                  >but some people) :)
                  >Rie
                  >> noerml - thinking this is kind of a tedious topic

                  thx Rie.. but that's why i said not boring but tedious ^^
                  but maybe i should have put it more clearly...
                  my biggest mistake, i always _always_ asume everyone can
                  follow my way of thinking. Which usually is very anoying
                  for people who have no clue whatsoever what i am talking about
                  *Grin*

                  it'S summed up with "tastes differ" ;-)

                  I might or might not like MZB
                  I might or might not like her feminist style
                  there might or might not be good reasons.

                  Actually i think the topic is rather interesting, because
                  clearly it shows the different types of readers there are.
                  Especially from a writers perspective (not that i was one ;-P)

                  but like i said, it's tedious to discuss it in a way, since discussing one's taste or dislike never leads
                  anywhere......then again, why argue at all :-)

                  noerml

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • jjarbanas
                  ... Geez, noerml, in that case, why have a list at all? Isn t discussion the whole point? And wouldn t life be boring if we all agreed on everything? Jill
                  Message 8 of 23 , Oct 5, 2004
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                    --- In Flewelling@yahoogroups.com, "noerml" <noerml@u...> wrote:

                    > but like i said, it's tedious to discuss it in a way, since
                    > discussing one's taste or dislike never leads
                    > anywhere......then again, why argue at all :-)

                    Geez, noerml, in that case, why have a list at all? Isn't discussion
                    the whole point? And wouldn't life be boring if we all agreed on
                    everything?

                    Jill
                  • noerml
                    ... i do feel misunderstood now :D we underline the _then again_ and hope the smiley at the end helps to understand this soft sarcasm :) btw rather topic
                    Message 9 of 23 , Oct 5, 2004
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                      >> but like i said, it's tedious to discuss it in a way, since
                      >> discussing one's taste or dislike never leads
                      >> anywhere......then again, why argue at all :-)

                      >Geez, noerml, in that case, why have a list at all? Isn't discussion
                      >the whole point? And wouldn't life be boring if we all agreed on
                      >everything?
                      >Jill

                      i do feel misunderstood now :D

                      we underline the _then again_ and hope the smiley at the end helps to
                      understand this soft sarcasm :)

                      btw rather topic related... Since there'r apparenlty quite some ppl who
                      seem to know things about it. I was always wondering if some1 ever was
                      going to continue MZB's work? DOesn't she have a daughter or son? I mean
                      it happend with tolkien... frank Herbert. Especially since there has always
                      been so much fans around writing for her anthologie thingies.

                      just wondering. Don't think i'd really read it...but then again...i read
                      the silmarillion ;-) also quite some of Brian Herberts Dune related work,
                      though i never really thought it was all that great.

                      But how so often we really like to dwell just one moment.... one more second in our beloved worlds. Makes me wonder why
                      it's so hard to say good bye? In a way it spoils it all. Is it dream related? There are certain dreams that always come back
                      (at least with me), now taking fantasy and SCI-FY as something like a "dream", is that the reason why we always want more
                      books, more input? But then again, wouldn't it be better to have an open end and let your imagination do the rest?

                      ah well i am drifting off again ;D

                      noerml



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Serena
                      I couldn t stand Herbert s sons stuff myself. Just because you are familiar with the universe the book comes from doesn t mean you can write it well.
                      Message 10 of 23 , Oct 5, 2004
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                        I couldn't stand Herbert's sons stuff myself. Just because you are familiar with the "universe" the book comes from doesn't mean you can write it well. Herbert's work seems to me a metaphor and philosophy statement a lot of the time, (it only just occurred to me as i read Dune when i was a kid that the spice was probably a metaphor for oil) rather than just a straight narrative. His son writes stories about Dune. Herbert populated his universe with characters that acted like gods to make statements about human nature, I think. I have seen none of this in the new stuff. Franks seemed like a pretty smart man, even if i'm unsure about his feelings about women (too many witches and sweeties) not sure if the son is
                        As for wanting to linger longer in certain worlds, i think books for many can be a special kind of escapist pleasure, where you have the power to select the world you exist in (which i at least am unable to do in real life). you can choose to mix with characters and worlds which more closely ressemble what you like and approve of. I find myself guilty of going back for the same kind of book over and over for this reason, though being finicky about what i am able to suspend disbeleif for i don't have that many chances. other people are much for progressive i think, from what i have read on this list and "move on" to newer and different narratives and perhaps ones that challenge them more

                        noerml <noerml@...> wrote:
                        >> but like i said, it's tedious to discuss it in a way, since
                        >> discussing one's taste or dislike never leads
                        >> anywhere......then again, why argue at all :-)

                        >Geez, noerml, in that case, why have a list at all? Isn't discussion
                        >the whole point? And wouldn't life be boring if we all agreed on
                        >everything?
                        >Jill

                        i do feel misunderstood now :D

                        we underline the _then again_ and hope the smiley at the end helps to
                        understand this soft sarcasm :)

                        btw rather topic related... Since there'r apparenlty quite some ppl who
                        seem to know things about it. I was always wondering if some1 ever was
                        going to continue MZB's work? DOesn't she have a daughter or son? I mean
                        it happend with tolkien... frank Herbert. Especially since there has always
                        been so much fans around writing for her anthologie thingies.

                        just wondering. Don't think i'd really read it...but then again...i read
                        the silmarillion ;-) also quite some of Brian Herberts Dune related work,
                        though i never really thought it was all that great.

                        But how so often we really like to dwell just one moment.... one more second in our beloved worlds. Makes me wonder why
                        it's so hard to say good bye? In a way it spoils it all. Is it dream related? There are certain dreams that always come back
                        (at least with me), now taking fantasy and SCI-FY as something like a "dream", is that the reason why we always want more
                        books, more input? But then again, wouldn't it be better to have an open end and let your imagination do the rest?

                        ah well i am drifting off again ;D

                        noerml



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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                      • noerml
                        ... That s exactly how i felt. I loved the Dune novels for their shallow depth (now what a weird way to put it, but i stick to it!). He kept the reader
                        Message 11 of 23 , Oct 6, 2004
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                          > couldn't stand Herbert's sons stuff myself. Just because you are familiar with the "universe" >the book comes from doesn't mean you can write it well. Herbert's work seems to me a metaphor and >philosophy statement a lot of the time, (it only just occurred to me as i read Dune when i was a >kid that the spice was probably a metaphor for oil) rather than just a straight narrative. His >son writes stories about Dune. Herbert populated his universe with characters that acted like >gods to make statements about human nature, I think. I have seen none of this in the new stuff. >Franks seemed like a pretty smart man, even if i'm unsure about his feelings about women (too >many witches and sweeties) not sure if the son is

                          That's exactly how i felt. I loved the Dune novels for their shallow depth (now what a weird
                          way to put it, but i stick to it!). He kept the reader searching for more, forced me to read
                          a sentence twice at times. He created the "Duncan Idaho", one of the best charakters i've ever seen in any novel. Brian -his son - continued his work, elaborated
                          bits and pieces he found in his fathers legacy, but it merely became yet another story, losing all the enchantment. *sigh* uh well...

                          >other people are much for progressive i think, from what i have read on this list and "move on" >to newer and different narratives and perhaps ones that challenge them more

                          And that's what i can't understand. A reader will educate himself through his reading, demanding
                          more challenging more subtle work after some years. Same as the painter won't keep on drawing/painting real looking portraits for his whole life.
                          Now taking writing as a form of art, a creative process, why do so many writers(not all obviously) hardly evolve?
                          Is that something their readers demand from them, to stay stagnat, to tell the same story over
                          and over again?

                          noerml



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Firesong
                          Christopher Tolkien didn t write anything himself, he merely edited, commented and arranged the work of his father. In a way he did influence the stuff, since
                          Message 12 of 23 , Oct 6, 2004
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                            Christopher Tolkien didn't write anything himself, he merely edited,
                            commented and arranged the work of his father. In a way he did
                            influence the stuff, since he chose what to publish from the multitudes
                            of story elements.

                            Fire


                            ------------------------------------------
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                          • Serena
                            I think writers revisit the same territory and readers keep coming back to it and wanting the same for the same reason why so much media of any kind is
                            Message 13 of 23 , Oct 6, 2004
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                              I think writers revisit the same territory and readers keep coming back to it and wanting the same for the same reason why so much media of any kind is formulaic: it fulfills a need, an emotional response, whereas those who evolve and keep looking for something more challenging are coming at it from a more intellectual perspective. I am one of the emotional ones, reading fulfils an emotional thing for me, but i tend to have more respect for intellectual endeavour and those writers and audiences that resist the pull of complacency. Tanith Lee said the you always are writing the same book, just in a different form. Kinda a depressing prospect, but any attempts i have made at writing myself have proven this to be true in my case


                              noerml <noerml@...> wrote:
                              > couldn't stand Herbert's sons stuff myself. Just because you are familiar with the "universe" >the book comes from doesn't mean you can write it well. Herbert's work seems to me a metaphor and >philosophy statement a lot of the time, (it only just occurred to me as i read Dune when i was a >kid that the spice was probably a metaphor for oil) rather than just a straight narrative. His >son writes stories about Dune. Herbert populated his universe with characters that acted like >gods to make statements about human nature, I think. I have seen none of this in the new stuff. >Franks seemed like a pretty smart man, even if i'm unsure about his feelings about women (too >many witches and sweeties) not sure if the son is

                              That's exactly how i felt. I loved the Dune novels for their shallow depth (now what a weird
                              way to put it, but i stick to it!). He kept the reader searching for more, forced me to read
                              a sentence twice at times. He created the "Duncan Idaho", one of the best charakters i've ever seen in any novel. Brian -his son - continued his work, elaborated
                              bits and pieces he found in his fathers legacy, but it merely became yet another story, losing all the enchantment. *sigh* uh well...

                              >other people are much for progressive i think, from what i have read on this list and "move on" >to newer and different narratives and perhaps ones that challenge them more

                              And that's what i can't understand. A reader will educate himself through his reading, demanding
                              more challenging more subtle work after some years. Same as the painter won't keep on drawing/painting real looking portraits for his whole life.
                              Now taking writing as a form of art, a creative process, why do so many writers(not all obviously) hardly evolve?
                              Is that something their readers demand from them, to stay stagnat, to tell the same story over
                              and over again?

                              noerml



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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                            • sarah lehman
                              I think writers do evolve, we just don t see the evolution. For example, no one cared about Picasso s sketches, then he got famous for one specific type of
                              Message 14 of 23 , Oct 6, 2004
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                                I think writers do evolve, we just don't see the evolution. For example, no one cared about Picasso's sketches, then he got famous for one specific type of art, and that's all he really did after that. No one cares about his first attempts for the sake of their art. It's the same thing with writers; but with them, their evolutionary books or stories, if you will, are hardly ever published, and no one would really want to read them anyway. So all the reader gets is the end result. Most authors don't just pick up a pencil and know how to write down what they're trying to say.

                                Sarah

                                Serena <bodhicat2000@...> wrote:
                                I think writers revisit the same territory and readers keep coming back to it and wanting the same for the same reason why so much media of any kind is formulaic: it fulfills a need, an emotional response, whereas those who evolve and keep looking for something more challenging are coming at it from a more intellectual perspective. I am one of the emotional ones, reading fulfils an emotional thing for me, but i tend to have more respect for intellectual endeavour and those writers and audiences that resist the pull of complacency. Tanith Lee said the you always are writing the same book, just in a different form. Kinda a depressing prospect, but any attempts i have made at writing myself have proven this to be true in my case


                                noerml <noerml@...> wrote:
                                > couldn't stand Herbert's sons stuff myself. Just because you are familiar with the "universe" >the book comes from doesn't mean you can write it well. Herbert's work seems to me a metaphor and >philosophy statement a lot of the time, (it only just occurred to me as i read Dune when i was a >kid that the spice was probably a metaphor for oil) rather than just a straight narrative. His >son writes stories about Dune. Herbert populated his universe with characters that acted like >gods to make statements about human nature, I think. I have seen none of this in the new stuff. >Franks seemed like a pretty smart man, even if i'm unsure about his feelings about women (too >many witches and sweeties) not sure if the son is

                                That's exactly how i felt. I loved the Dune novels for their shallow depth (now what a weird
                                way to put it, but i stick to it!). He kept the reader searching for more, forced me to read
                                a sentence twice at times. He created the "Duncan Idaho", one of the best charakters i've ever seen in any novel. Brian -his son - continued his work, elaborated
                                bits and pieces he found in his fathers legacy, but it merely became yet another story, losing all the enchantment. *sigh* uh well...

                                >other people are much for progressive i think, from what i have read on this list and "move on" >to newer and different narratives and perhaps ones that challenge them more

                                And that's what i can't understand. A reader will educate himself through his reading, demanding
                                more challenging more subtle work after some years. Same as the painter won't keep on drawing/painting real looking portraits for his whole life.
                                Now taking writing as a form of art, a creative process, why do so many writers(not all obviously) hardly evolve?
                                Is that something their readers demand from them, to stay stagnat, to tell the same story over
                                and over again?

                                noerml



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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                              • noerml
                                ^ I think writers do evolve, we just don t see the evolution. For example, no one cared about Picasso s sketches, then he got famous for one specific type of
                                Message 15 of 23 , Oct 7, 2004
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                                  ^>I think writers do evolve, we just don't see the evolution. For example, no one cared about >Picasso's sketches, then he got famous for one specific type of art, and that's all he really did >after that. No one cares about his first attempts for the sake of their art. It's the same >thing with writers; but with them, their evolutionary books or stories, if you will, are hardly >ever published, and no one would really want to read them anyway. So all the reader gets is the >end result. Most authors don't just pick up a pencil and know how to write down what they're >trying to say.

                                  Taking Picasso as an artist who did not evolve during his life might be a bit too daring, but ok ;-)
                                  We take another famous artist to illustrate what i mean: Mark Rothko... when he started selling his art he used to paint rather "realistic" sceens of subway
                                  stations around NYC, at least pictures that had a content and a name you could bring together with the picture. Now probably everybody here knows
                                  his huge "color panels" he really got so famous for, that got bigger and bigger, where he didn't depict anything but wanted to create a location, a room, a sceenier
                                  with it. I seldom see such evolution with writers. But then again? maybe storytelling is a "craftsmanship" and not so much an artform? is that the reason?

                                  noerml



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Adrienne Rose (Rie Sheridan)
                                  ... I don t think I agree with this one. A lot of my evolutionary stories have now been published...except what I wrote as a child. and ... and not so much
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Oct 7, 2004
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                                    --- sarah lehman <donjuans1503rd@...> wrote:

                                    > I think writers do evolve, we just don't see the
                                    > evolution.

                                    > It's the same thing with writers; but with them, their
                                    > evolutionary books or stories, if you will, are hardly
                                    > ever published, and no one would really want to read them
                                    > anyway.

                                    I don't think I agree with this one. A lot of my
                                    "evolutionary" stories have now been published...except
                                    what I wrote as a child.

                                    and

                                    >But then again? maybe storytelling is a "craftsmanship"
                                    and >not so much an artform? is that the reason?

                                    No. Writing is as much an art as any of the others, in my
                                    opinion, noerml. We just create our pictures with words
                                    instead of images.

                                    Rie


                                    =====

                                    Rie Sheridan Rose -- the Bardabee Poet

                                    Visit http://www.riewriter.com and drop by
                                    http://www.rogers-vincenthomeforwaywardspirits.info
                                    The Rogers-Vincent Home for Wayward Spirits
                                  • Serena
                                    Visual arts is probably a bad analogy, for the past hundred years the badge of honour in art has been to be avant-garde, which entails doing the exact opposite
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Oct 7, 2004
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                                      Visual arts is probably a bad analogy, for the past hundred years the badge of honour in art has been to be avant-garde, which entails doing the exact opposite to what the pulic wants and expects. Visual arts has been what i trained in, so hence i admire experimentaton and daring in other forms of media, even if i tend to read the same old stuff. And Picasso? Well general critical opinion now is that he was a superb innovator, he actually experimented and went through many many different creative modes, so much so I kinda wondered why he was used as an example. people complain he never resolved any of it into something complete. The thing with visual arts is the audience for it is tiny (how many successful contemporary artists can you think of off the top of your head? And local ones?) and its purpose is purely to experiment and push boundaries in the ol artists as heroes thing. and a book has to make sense, have a beginning and an end and no matter what rules you break, screwing
                                      with grammatical ones (as i think i have unwittingly here) will only end up with big problems. awhile ago people were posting about how "high"literature was unreadable and annoying and stupid, well, a lot of it is the type of work that does follow those same rules of innovation, but if you start doing this, you need to question all the aspects of writing, what makes a novel and play around with that unafraid of consequence. it makes for difficult reading and a lot of people don't like it. Books like Lynn's and other authors cited here tend to play with ideas instead, and keep to the rules of narrative. But you have to make any new idea of yours plausible in character, have a narrative that maes sense etc. and you need to be able to pay the mortgage off the proceeds of sales. most visual artists know they will never be able to live off their sales, and this freedom from economic rationalism can make a biiiiiggg difference

                                      noerml <noerml@...> wrote:^>I think writers do evolve, we just don't see the evolution. For example, no one cared about >Picasso's sketches, then he got famous for one specific type of art, and that's all he really did >after that. No one cares about his first attempts for the sake of their art. It's the same >thing with writers; but with them, their evolutionary books or stories, if you will, are hardly >ever published, and no one would really want to read them anyway. So all the reader gets is the >end result. Most authors don't just pick up a pencil and know how to write down what they're >trying to say.

                                      Taking Picasso as an artist who did not evolve during his life might be a bit too daring, but ok ;-)
                                      We take another famous artist to illustrate what i mean: Mark Rothko... when he started selling his art he used to paint rather "realistic" sceens of subway
                                      stations around NYC, at least pictures that had a content and a name you could bring together with the picture. Now probably everybody here knows
                                      his huge "color panels" he really got so famous for, that got bigger and bigger, where he didn't depict anything but wanted to create a location, a room, a sceenier
                                      with it. I seldom see such evolution with writers. But then again? maybe storytelling is a "craftsmanship" and not so much an artform? is that the reason?

                                      noerml



                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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                                    • sarah lehman
                                      I think my first message was rather poorly written. First, what I meant when I talked about the evolutionary books of authors not being published, was that
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Oct 7, 2004
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                                        I think my first message was rather poorly written. First, what I meant when I talked about the evolutionary books of authors not being published, was that their first attempts and the things they wrote while evolving they're writing style were not published. Second, I'm sorry about the bad Picasso example. I don't know much about visual art, I'm more of a music person. So instead, take Sousa's marches. In order to learn how to write music, he had to write some things that were not very good, and then he was able to evolve. However, he reached a sort of platform, and once he could write a march, he pretty much stuck with the exact same form, style, etc. Once you've played one Sousa march, you feel like you've played them all (especially if your director is a big fan and has you play three at one concert) Anyway, my point is, that authors do evolve, but then they "level out," I bet some of them could have kept going and done something really original, but the human race in
                                        general is pretty lazy, and when your typical author feels at all satisfied with what he's writing, it begins to seem like too much trouble to keep working on your style when you already know that what you're doing works. Also, a lot of authors just don't have the time to work on evolving once they start getting published. By that time, a lot of them have other responsibilities they didn't have previously. Besides, it's a risk to try something new, and a lot of people would see the risk as too much, especially if they have a house payment, electric bill, etc. relying on that payment. Anyway, I hope I clarified myself a little bit.

                                        Sarah

                                        Serena <bodhicat2000@...> wrote:
                                        Visual arts is probably a bad analogy, for the past hundred years the badge of honour in art has been to be avant-garde, which entails doing the exact opposite to what the pulic wants and expects. Visual arts has been what i trained in, so hence i admire experimentaton and daring in other forms of media, even if i tend to read the same old stuff. And Picasso? Well general critical opinion now is that he was a superb innovator, he actually experimented and went through many many different creative modes, so much so I kinda wondered why he was used as an example. people complain he never resolved any of it into something complete. The thing with visual arts is the audience for it is tiny (how many successful contemporary artists can you think of off the top of your head? And local ones?) and its purpose is purely to experiment and push boundaries in the ol artists as heroes thing. and a book has to make sense, have a beginning and an end and no matter what rules you break, screwing
                                        with grammatical ones (as i think i have unwittingly here) will only end up with big problems. awhile ago people were posting about how "high"literature was unreadable and annoying and stupid, well, a lot of it is the type of work that does follow those same rules of innovation, but if you start doing this, you need to question all the aspects of writing, what makes a novel and play around with that unafraid of consequence. it makes for difficult reading and a lot of people don't like it. Books like Lynn's and other authors cited here tend to play with ideas instead, and keep to the rules of narrative. But you have to make any new idea of yours plausible in character, have a narrative that maes sense etc. and you need to be able to pay the mortgage off the proceeds of sales. most visual artists know they will never be able to live off their sales, and this freedom from economic rationalism can make a biiiiiggg difference

                                        noerml <noerml@...> wrote:^>I think writers do evolve, we just don't see the evolution. For example, no one cared about >Picasso's sketches, then he got famous for one specific type of art, and that's all he really did >after that. No one cares about his first attempts for the sake of their art. It's the same >thing with writers; but with them, their evolutionary books or stories, if you will, are hardly >ever published, and no one would really want to read them anyway. So all the reader gets is the >end result. Most authors don't just pick up a pencil and know how to write down what they're >trying to say.

                                        Taking Picasso as an artist who did not evolve during his life might be a bit too daring, but ok ;-)
                                        We take another famous artist to illustrate what i mean: Mark Rothko... when he started selling his art he used to paint rather "realistic" sceens of subway
                                        stations around NYC, at least pictures that had a content and a name you could bring together with the picture. Now probably everybody here knows
                                        his huge "color panels" he really got so famous for, that got bigger and bigger, where he didn't depict anything but wanted to create a location, a room, a sceenier
                                        with it. I seldom see such evolution with writers. But then again? maybe storytelling is a "craftsmanship" and not so much an artform? is that the reason?

                                        noerml



                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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                                      • Paula Lieberman
                                        ... From: sarah lehman ... Actually, Picasso could, and -had- created extremely realistic artwork, in his very early periods,
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Oct 7, 2004
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                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "sarah lehman" <donjuans1503rd@...>


                                          >
                                          > I think my first message was rather poorly written. First, what
                                          > I meant when I talked about the evolutionary books of authors
                                          > not being published, was that their first attempts and the things
                                          > they wrote while evolving they're writing style were not published.
                                          > Second, I'm sorry about the bad Picasso example.

                                          Actually, Picasso could, and -had- created extremely realistic artwork, in
                                          his very early periods, before going into the other phases of his career--so
                                          he DID change as an artisti over time, going into different styles and
                                          experimentation. He was a great artist but apparently a really
                                          lousy -person-.

                                          > I don't know much about visual art, I'm more of a music person
                                          >. So instead, take Sousa's marches. In order to learn how to write
                                          > music, he had to write some things that were not very good, and
                                          > then he was able to evolve. However, he reached a sort of platform,

                                          I think the word you might want there is "plateau," not "platform"

                                          > and once he could write a march, he pretty much stuck with
                                          > the exact same form, style, etc. Once you've played one Sousa
                                          > march, you feel like you've played them all (especially if your
                                          > director is a big fan and has you play three at one concert)

                                          Not all marches are created alike, but if one would prefer symphonies or
                                          fugues or such...

                                          > Anyway, my point is, that authors do evolve, but then
                                          > they "level out," I bet some of them could have kept going
                                          > and done something really original, but the human race in
                                          > general is pretty lazy, and when your typical author feels at
                                          > all satisfied with what he's writing, it begins to seem like too
                                          > much trouble to keep working on your style when you already
                                          > know that what you're doing works.

                                          Sometimes it's economic, that the only thing people can get -income- for is
                                          "more of the same." It isn't -necessarily- that they're a one note writer...
                                          sometimes that is true, sometimes it's not.

                                          > Also, a lot of authors just don't have the time to work on
                                          > evolving once they start getting published. By that time, a
                                          > lot of them have other responsibilities they didn't have previously.
                                          > Besides, it's a risk to try something new, and a lot of people
                                          > would see the risk as too much, especially if they have a house
                                          > payment, electric bill, etc. relying on that payment. Anyway, I hope
                                          > I clarified myself a little bit.

                                          One question is, is the -writer- bored with their own work?
                                        • Serena
                                          not badly written and not a bad example. I m an art teacher so i know waaaay too much about these things and am a fascist about such things. i get your point
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Oct 8, 2004
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                                            not badly written and not a bad example. I'm an art teacher so i know waaaay too much about these things and am a fascist about such things. i get your point and personally find topics like this interesting

                                            sarah lehman <donjuans1503rd@...> wrote:I think my first message was rather poorly written. First, what I meant when I talked about the evolutionary books of authors not being published, was that their first attempts and the things they wrote while evolving they're writing style were not published. Second, I'm sorry about the bad Picasso example. I don't know much about visual art, I'm more of a music person. So instead, take Sousa's marches. In order to learn how to write music, he had to write some things that were not very good, and then he was able to evolve. However, he reached a sort of platform, and once he could write a march, he pretty much stuck with the exact same form, style, etc. Once you've played one Sousa march, you feel like you've played them all (especially if your director is a big fan and has you play three at one concert) Anyway, my point is, that authors do evolve, but then they "level out," I bet some of them could have kept going and done
                                            something really original, but the human race in
                                            general is pretty lazy, and when your typical author feels at all satisfied with what he's writing, it begins to seem like too much trouble to keep working on your style when you already know that what you're doing works. Also, a lot of authors just don't have the time to work on evolving once they start getting published. By that time, a lot of them have other responsibilities they didn't have previously. Besides, it's a risk to try something new, and a lot of people would see the risk as too much, especially if they have a house payment, electric bill, etc. relying on that payment. Anyway, I hope I clarified myself a little bit.

                                            Sarah

                                            Serena <bodhicat2000@...> wrote:
                                            Visual arts is probably a bad analogy, for the past hundred years the badge of honour in art has been to be avant-garde, which entails doing the exact opposite to what the pulic wants and expects. Visual arts has been what i trained in, so hence i admire experimentaton and daring in other forms of media, even if i tend to read the same old stuff. And Picasso? Well general critical opinion now is that he was a superb innovator, he actually experimented and went through many many different creative modes, so much so I kinda wondered why he was used as an example. people complain he never resolved any of it into something complete. The thing with visual arts is the audience for it is tiny (how many successful contemporary artists can you think of off the top of your head? And local ones?) and its purpose is purely to experiment and push boundaries in the ol artists as heroes thing. and a book has to make sense, have a beginning and an end and no matter what rules you break, screwing
                                            with grammatical ones (as i think i have unwittingly here) will only end up with big problems. awhile ago people were posting about how "high"literature was unreadable and annoying and stupid, well, a lot of it is the type of work that does follow those same rules of innovation, but if you start doing this, you need to question all the aspects of writing, what makes a novel and play around with that unafraid of consequence. it makes for difficult reading and a lot of people don't like it. Books like Lynn's and other authors cited here tend to play with ideas instead, and keep to the rules of narrative. But you have to make any new idea of yours plausible in character, have a narrative that maes sense etc. and you need to be able to pay the mortgage off the proceeds of sales. most visual artists know they will never be able to live off their sales, and this freedom from economic rationalism can make a biiiiiggg difference

                                            noerml <noerml@...> wrote:^>I think writers do evolve, we just don't see the evolution. For example, no one cared about >Picasso's sketches, then he got famous for one specific type of art, and that's all he really did >after that. No one cares about his first attempts for the sake of their art. It's the same >thing with writers; but with them, their evolutionary books or stories, if you will, are hardly >ever published, and no one would really want to read them anyway. So all the reader gets is the >end result. Most authors don't just pick up a pencil and know how to write down what they're >trying to say.

                                            Taking Picasso as an artist who did not evolve during his life might be a bit too daring, but ok ;-)
                                            We take another famous artist to illustrate what i mean: Mark Rothko... when he started selling his art he used to paint rather "realistic" sceens of subway
                                            stations around NYC, at least pictures that had a content and a name you could bring together with the picture. Now probably everybody here knows
                                            his huge "color panels" he really got so famous for, that got bigger and bigger, where he didn't depict anything but wanted to create a location, a room, a sceenier
                                            with it. I seldom see such evolution with writers. But then again? maybe storytelling is a "craftsmanship" and not so much an artform? is that the reason?

                                            noerml



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                                          • noerml
                                            ... artwork, in ... career--so ... and ... That s exactly WHY he is a very bad example for artists not evolving. And on a sidenote: every artists starts with
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Oct 12, 2004
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              >>Second, I'm sorry about the bad Picasso example.
                                              > Actually, Picasso could, and -had- created extremely realistic
                                              artwork, in
                                              > his very early periods, before going into the other phases of his
                                              career--so
                                              > he DID change as an artisti over time, going into different styles
                                              and
                                              > experimentation.

                                              That's exactly WHY he is a very bad example for artists not evolving.
                                              And on a sidenote: every artists starts with realistic artwork,
                                              that's the whole point of abstraction: evolution, finding the
                                              basics...etc

                                              >>One question is, is the -writer- bored with their own work?

                                              One should guess so? I am bored with my own work for sure (not that
                                              i was a writer) It's nice to dwell in old memories once a year. But
                                              seriously? who keeps on reading old diary entries over and over
                                              again. Who keeps on looking at drawings from kindergarden? Getting
                                              bored of ones own work is probably one reason to evolve. To create
                                              something new. On the other hand, if you find a topic that can
                                              thrill you over a long period, that has so much aspects to discover,
                                              you will stick to it.
                                              Makes you wonder (looking at all those long fantasy epics): is the
                                              ultimate goal to find that ultimate topic, or is the search for THE
                                              thing?

                                              noer,รถ
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