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Re: [FateRPG] Re: GNS, where would you locate FATE?

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  • Landon Darkwood
    ... I bow to your superior meme knowledge. You win 10 internets. :D -L
    Message 1 of 24 , May 2, 2007
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      On 5/2/07, Jim Henley <jimhenley@...> wrote:
      > Thanks, Landon, but I was going for the Godwin. <g>

      I bow to your superior meme knowledge. You win 10 internets. :D


      -L
    • Blake Hutchins
      LOL Thanks, I needed that reminder. ... From: Jim Henley To: FateRPG@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2007 10:52:08 AM Subject:
      Message 2 of 24 , May 2, 2007
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        LOL  Thanks, I needed that reminder.

        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Jim Henley <jimhenley@...>
        To: FateRPG@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, May 2, 2007 10:52:08 AM
        Subject: Re: [FateRPG] Re: GNS, where would you locate FATE?

        It's not just "disheartening." It's worse than Hitler.

        Best,


        Jim

        On 5/2/07, Blake Hutchins <blake_hutchins@ yahoo.com> wrote:

        I have to say I find the number of misconceptions about a pretty basic model -- only part of the model developed at The Forge -- disheartening.




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      • Lance Dyas
        Hehehe is that a thread ender attempt
        Message 3 of 24 , May 2, 2007
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          Hehehe is that a thread ender attempt

          Jim Henley wrote:
          > It's not just "disheartening." It's worse than Hitler.
          >
          > Best,
          >
          >
          > Jim
          >
          > On 5/2/07, *Blake Hutchins * <blake_hutchins@...
          > <mailto:blake_hutchins@...>> wrote:
          >
          > I have to say I find the number of misconceptions about a pretty
          > basic model -- only part of the model developed at The Forge --
          > disheartening.
          >
          >
          >
        • Carl D Cravens
          ... I think the biggest flaw in GNS theory is that 80% of the people talking about it don t understand it. :) (Me included, which is why I stay out of it. I
          Message 4 of 24 , May 2, 2007
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            Fred Hicks wrote:
            > It's undeniably game-y, but this is where misunderstanding of the GNS

            I think the biggest flaw in GNS theory is that 80% of the people talking
            about it don't understand it. :) (Me included, which is why I stay out
            of it. I know just enough to be dangerous.)

            --
            Carl D Cravens (raven@...)
            Press any key to continue or any other key to quit.
          • Mike Holmes
            ... Quite correct. Only actual play is categorized as being G or N or S (or any other such partition of the Creative Agenda). As such, one can only talk about
            Message 5 of 24 , May 3, 2007
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              >From: Blake Hutchins <blake_hutchins@...>
              >
              >FWIW, the model is, as I understand it, not meant to be applied to games
              >per se, or even to particular gamers, but to behavior and choices
              >manifested by gamers at the table. Some rules sets may encourage more or
              >less of particular behaviors.

              Quite correct. Only actual play is categorized as being G or N or S (or any
              other such partition of the Creative Agenda). As such, one can only talk
              about what a particular system might tend to promote in play, or support
              well. Further, as I've recently argued, that's going to depend quite a lot
              on how people fill in the "gaps" in technique of how to play. So the same
              system will tend to promote different things with different groups.

              (Which is not the same thing as saying that the system doesn't matter, BTW,
              quite the opposite)

              >My two cents. I'd probably locate FATE between "N" and in terms of genre
              >emulation, "S," but the Fate points sort of offer a bit of a "G" option,
              >depending on the group. It's a pretty versatile game.

              Fred and Rob have consciously decided not to pursue a game that supports any
              one particular sort of agenda. A possible criticism of this is that with
              other such "incoherent" games (meaning ones that have elements that support
              more than one way to play), often players have trouble with particular
              mechanics because they don't fit their personal agenda when playing the
              game.

              The argument in favor of this approach is that RPGs tend to get modified
              anyhow, so why not provide a framework that's broad enough that lots of
              people can figure out how to modify it without much effort into exactly the
              sort of game they want to play. As opposed to the game, in theory, appealing
              only to a limited crowd of players (there's a good counter-argument to this
              as well).

              That's a debate that won't be solved here. But sales of FATE, it's reviews,
              and the obviously good play of it that has occured do say that the game
              isn't so incoherent as to cause a lot of problems for the people who play
              it. Or not so much that the positive features are blotted out by such
              problems.

              Might makes right, I guess. FATE works, so any GNS analysis of it's
              "problems" is probably academic at best. What does FATE support? A broad
              array of agendas, as the designers intend. With a little creative
              interpretation. Which is all in the good FUDGE tradition.

              Mike

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