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Re: [FateRPG] Porting SOTC to Other Settings

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  • Andrew Weitzman
    ... From: Daniel C Ansell To: Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 12:02 AM Subject: RE: [FateRPG] Porting
    Message 1 of 24 , Sep 30, 2006
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Daniel C Ansell" <danielcansell@...>
      To: <FateRPG@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 12:02 AM
      Subject: RE: [FateRPG] Porting SOTC to Other Settings


      > A western didn't really take any serious modifications.

      That's a bit of synchronicity. I was thinking of how to adapt SotC or
      Fate 3.0 to run an Old West game. Pulp-style gaming conventions do lend
      themselves to the Western genre, especially if you try to emulate the
      dime-store novels and 20th Century movie serials. Running a grittier game
      might use the more lethal damage systems mentioned a few threads ago.

      Some bits of colour I was thinking about a Western Fate setting would
      have:

      * Homesteading and Cowpunching skills to represent two major icons of the
      genre: the sodbuster and the cowboy.
      * Distance not being in terms of zones, but "toe to toe", "face to face",
      "shouting distance", "hollering distance", "over yonder", and "Fort Mudge"
      *Renaming Health and Composure as Guts and Grit
      *Some kind of card mechanic. It's the Old West. Using poker hands is de
      rigeur for a western game...


      Andrew



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    • judd_harris
      I love the names for your distances. Great stuff. ... face , ... Mudge
      Message 2 of 24 , Oct 1, 2006
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        I love the names for your distances.

        Great stuff.

        > * Distance not being in terms of zones, but "toe to toe", "face to
        face",
        > "shouting distance", "hollering distance", "over yonder", and "Fort
        Mudge"
      • Darren Brewster
        ... I converted an Iron Kingdoms fantasy game from FATE 2.0 to SotC. Works great. SotC is a very versatile rule set.
        Message 3 of 24 , Oct 1, 2006
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          On 10/1/06, Fred Hicks <iago@...> wrote:
          >
          > *I* think it would be pretty easy, but from some
          > perspectives, I'm the last person you'd want to trust on
          > that. Having gotten my hands dirty with the system so
          > much, I could probably spit out an alterna-SOTC game with
          > about half an hour of prep at this point. What are other
          > folks' thoughts on this?

          I converted an Iron Kingdoms fantasy game from FATE 2.0 to SotC. Works
          great. SotC is a very versatile rule set.
        • eclectic scholar
          ... You could easily do so in FATE v.2, so there would have to be something wrong with the upcoming variant if you couldn t do the same with it. ***** Every
          Message 4 of 24 , Oct 1, 2006
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            --- rick jones <rickjthree@...> wrote:
            > Could I run a Brisco County Jr game, or a more
            > modern-day game like Buffy/Angel/etc? (Or even a
            > pulp SF in space game, like Lensmen or Flash
            > Gordon?)

            You could easily do so in FATE v.2, so there would
            have to be something wrong with the upcoming variant
            if you couldn't do the same with it.

            *****

            Every time I hear someone rave about a newer version or upgrade, I repeat to myself, "Han shot first", "The Force is not caused by bloodstream bacteria called midichlorians", and "Darth Vader did not build C3PO" as a reminder that change is not automatically for the better.

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          • freelancepope
            ... SotC or ... grittier game ... I ve been looking this way recently well. All the western systems I ve been poking at leave something to be desired. Just
            Message 5 of 24 , Oct 2, 2006
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              --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Weitzman" <aweitzpublic@...>
              wrote:

              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Daniel C Ansell" <danielcansell@...>
              > To: <FateRPG@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 12:02 AM
              > Subject: RE: [FateRPG] Porting SOTC to Other Settings

              > > A western didn't really take any serious modifications.
              >
              > That's a bit of synchronicity. I was thinking of how to adapt
              SotC or
              > Fate 3.0 to run an Old West game. Pulp-style gaming conventions do lend
              > themselves to the Western genre, especially if you try to emulate the
              > dime-store novels and 20th Century movie serials. Running a
              grittier game
              > might use the more lethal damage systems mentioned a few threads ago.


              I've been looking this way recently well. All the western systems
              I've been poking at leave something to be desired. Just straight
              ahead, zombie-free western.


              > Some bits of colour I was thinking about a Western Fate setting
              would
              > have:
              >
              > *Renaming Health and Composure as Guts and Grit

              Nice.

              > *Some kind of card mechanic. It's the Old West. Using poker hands
              is de
              > rigeur for a western game...


              A couple of days ago, I wenting scrounging through this list's
              archives trying to see if anyone had dones something like that, but
              without all the layers of mechanics you'll find in the zombie-laden
              game (...roll dice to see how many cards you draw...).

              I only found a brief reference to the *possibility* of such a thing
              (and the quite suave name of "hand of Fate"), but not much beyond some
              ideas of using cards in lieu of the Fudge dice (red=minus, black=plus?).

              I'd want to justify the card-mechanic; not just have it be a
              substitute for rolling dice. You can do nifty tricks like holding
              cards "up your sleeve", lay them on the table for future reference,
              base effects on suits and wild cards...

              The obvious methods just didn't grab me:
              *Draw a card for each ladder-step, compare high cards. Quite simple
              but not terribly interesting.
              *Draw five cards, allow one discard and draw per ladder-step, compare
              poker hands. Would likely slow things down.
              *Draw five cards +1 per ladder step, compare poke hands. Again,
              playing a game of poker to shoot a guy seems fairly tedious; using it
              to represent the entire *scene* however...

              Something like this struck me as fairly playable:
              <http://www.bayn.org/blur/mechanics.html>. Draw a card per
              ladder-step, and compare hands based only on straights and sets
              (ignoring other "real" poker hands in favor of brevity). Comparing
              the resulting cards top-to-bottom (a la Risk) is kinda interesting.

              Use Fate chips (okay, I'm playing The Obvious Game now).

              Before I hurt my brain, has anyone else thought of anything in this
              direction?


              I'm figuring something a tad less pulp (more modern sytle, without
              being as grim as Unforgiven. Silverado, Tombstone and Young Guns are
              probably in the target area) so the breadth of skills in SotC is a bit
              much -- direct mapping wouldn't be possible, but a good starting
              point. Rifle and Pistol would have seperate entries, Riding would
              probably not be covered by Survival; these seem significant enough in
              the setting to warrant it. Skill lists are easy enough to come up
              with so I'm not too concerned here.

              I don't know if stunts would even be appropriate, as presented in
              SotC. Unless I want to get into Gene and Roy territory (shooting a
              gun from a guy's hand without penalty, not reloading, ricochets,
              always having a guitar with hidden orchestral accompaniment), I'm
              having trouble coming up with any use for them. They'd basically be
              for skill specializations.

              Combat would probably be closer to older style Fate, to account for
              more lethality, and a world where it matters if you're using a buffalo
              rifle or a Derringer.

              Some apparent aspects: Wanted/Bounty, Revenge, Seeking atonement,
              padre/man of the cloth, tin star, homestead, drifter... Like skills,
              these are easy enough to come up with.

              It's possible to not use phase based character creation, but it adds
              structure. Obviosuly the Civil War is a major touchpoint for this (as
              can be the Gold Rush, depending and where your stories take place). I
              liked what Landon's suggestion for a coming-of-age moment (perhaps
              "defining moment" instead?). I thought about using a dime-novel
              phase, but that lends itself to a more pulpy style; having a feature
              film was an option as well, but I don't like throwing in a
              contemporary element like that (yeah, I'm just being difficult).
              Perhaps a newspaper story?

              Okay, this got much more rambly than I expected. Any thoughts?


              Jesse
            • Mike Holmes
              ... As a Generic game, I think we d all agree that it can be done. I think that a better way to look at Rick s question is Will it do it well? and How
              Message 6 of 24 , Oct 2, 2006
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                >From: eclectic scholar <eclectic_scholar@...>
                >
                >--- rick jones <rickjthree@...> wrote:
                > > Could I run a Brisco County Jr game, or a more
                > > modern-day game like Buffy/Angel/etc? (Or even a
                > > pulp SF in space game, like Lensmen or Flash
                > > Gordon?)
                >
                >You could easily do so in FATE v.2, so there would
                >have to be something wrong with the upcoming variant
                >if you couldn't do the same with it.

                As a "Generic" game, I think we'd all agree that it can be done. I think
                that a better way to look at Rick's question is "Will it do it well?" and
                "How much work would it take to get it to work well?"

                And I think I hear Fred saying "Well," and "Not much" in response, but
                asking for other opinions. My opinion, FWIW, is that Fred's assessment is
                not as biased as he thinks. This version will do a spectactular job with
                this sort of game, and won't take much effort to get it to do so. That's not
                having played yet, of course. But that's the impression I get.

                Mike
              • Andrew Weitzman
                ... I`ve been thinking about grittier damage systems. I forget if Landon posted this exact system before, but perhaps weapons inflict physical stress for a
                Message 7 of 24 , Oct 2, 2006
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                  > Combat would probably be closer to older style Fate, to account for
                  > more lethality, and a world where it matters if you're using a buffalo
                  > rifle or a Derringer.

                  I`ve been thinking about grittier damage systems. I forget if
                  Landon posted this exact system before, but perhaps weapons inflict
                  physical stress for a certain amount of damage filling in boxes (like
                  SotC minion rules). The position the box filling starts is determined
                  by the attacker`s shifts on a successful attack roll. Say, a Colt
                  Peacemaker causes three boxes of damage. You get two shifts on your
                  Guns/Shootin' Iron roll, so you fill in three boxes up from the second
                  stress box. Melee weapons might do the same, with damage calculated
                  by certain qualities "adding on" to shifts scored on a Melee
                  roll--like if it is sharp, specifically made as a weapon, heavy, etc.

                  For greater detail, you could specify range in ladder terms.
                  Each ladder step above Average equals one more zone you can hit beyond
                  "face to face". A derringer has, at best, Average range, a Colt
                  Peacemaker Fair or Good, a Winchester Good, a Trapdoor Carbine .45-70
                  Great, etc.

                  Shotguns may be a special case. I'd have the damage *decrease*
                  with each zone past "face to face" to represent the spread of shot.
                  At point blank range they do hideous amounts of damage, at "shouting
                  distance" it hits like a rifle, at "hollering distance" like a
                  revolver. To represent the spread of shot damaging a close packed
                  number of people, say at shouting or hollering distance you can assign
                  shifts to any targets within close proximity of the main target.

                  Andrew
                • j0vin
                  ... Good ideas! Love the Grit and Guts. One suggestion on distances, shouting and hollering may be to close together, like toe to toe and face to
                  Message 8 of 24 , Oct 2, 2006
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                    --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew Weitzman" <aweitzpublic@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Some bits of colour I was thinking about a Western Fate setting
                    > could have:
                    >
                    > * Distance not being in terms of zones, but "toe to toe", "face to
                    > face", "shouting distance", "hollering distance", "over yonder",
                    > and "Fort Mudge".
                    >
                    > Andrew

                    Good ideas! Love the Grit and Guts. One suggestion on distances,
                    "shouting" and "hollering" may be to close together, like "toe to toe"
                    and "face to face", to make it easy to distinquish between them easily
                    on the face of it. Something like:

                    "toe to toe"
                    "spittin' distance"
                    "talkin' distance" (I like "yappin'" and "yammerin'" too)
                    "hollerin' distance"
                    "over yonder"
                    "Fort Mudge" (love this one)

                    FWIW, cheers!
                  • rick jones
                    Call me lucky 301 then. My players said they d give it a try so I just placed my order. -- Rick Jones http://www.livejournal.com/~rickj
                    Message 9 of 24 , Oct 2, 2006
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                      Call me lucky 301 then.

                      My players said they'd give it a try so I just placed my order.
                       --
                      Rick Jones
                      http://www.livejournal.com/~rickj


                    • Fred Hicks
                      ... Fantastic! -- Fred Hicks * Curse you iago and your fast fingers! - Rob Donoghue DRYH (www.evilhat.com/dryh.php) - SOTC (www.evilhat.com?spirit) The
                      Message 10 of 24 , Oct 2, 2006
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                        On Mon, 02 Oct 2006, rick jones wrote:

                        > Call me lucky 301 then.
                        >
                        > My players said they'd give it a try so I just placed my order.

                        Fantastic!

                        --
                        Fred Hicks * "Curse you iago and your fast fingers!" - Rob Donoghue
                        DRYH (www.evilhat.com/dryh.php) - SOTC (www.evilhat.com?spirit)
                        The Dresden Files Roleplaying Game - Coming in 2007
                        http://www.dresdenfilesrpg.com/
                      • mgagan1
                        ... Maybe you saw my post and rejected it as a possibility: http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/FateRPG/message/6426 I m refering to it again because I still
                        Message 11 of 24 , Oct 3, 2006
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                          --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, "freelancepope" <freelancepope@...> t

                          > I'd want to justify the card-mechanic; not just have it be a
                          > substitute for rolling dice. You can do nifty tricks like holding
                          > cards "up your sleeve", lay them on the table for future reference,
                          > base effects on suits and wild cards...

                          Maybe you saw my post and rejected it as a possibility:

                          http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/FateRPG/message/6426

                          I'm refering to it again because I still hadn't gotten any response.

                          The same idea, using a five cards "poker hand" (5cF), with dominating
                          suits (mini-flushes) or pairs being damage enhancers really appealed
                          to me, but I still need help figuring odds, particularly with the
                          Jokers being wild.

                          Good luck in any case. :)
                        • Landon Darkwood
                          ... Yeah, that was me. Thing is, somebody else on this list (I suck with names) did it one better: reduce the number of default stress boxes, and then add more
                          Message 12 of 24 , Oct 3, 2006
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                            On 10/2/06, Andrew Weitzman <aweitzpublic@...> wrote:
                            > I`ve been thinking about grittier damage systems. I forget if
                            > Landon posted this exact system before,

                            Yeah, that was me.

                            Thing is, somebody else on this list (I suck with names) did it one
                            better: reduce the number of default stress boxes, and then add more
                            boxes for mild, moderate, and severe consequences.

                            So, say your health default is 4. If someone doesn't take Endurance,
                            their track looks like this:

                            Stress: [ ][ ][ ][ ] Consequences: [ ][ ][ ]

                            So, then, if they take a 6-shift hit, they go immediately to a
                            moderate consequence. If they take a second, it bleeds up to a severe
                            consequence. That way, it ties right into the default damage system
                            with no further wrangling. Yes, that still means it takes an 8-shift
                            hit to take said person out, but I'm not sure that bothers me so much
                            anymore.

                            See, my perspective has been changing a little lately since I started
                            using some of my house designs. I started making these "gritty"
                            systems mainly because I noticed how long it takes to defeat a named
                            character, and I thought that it was good for pulp, but for other
                            genres maybe it shouldn't take that long. Thing is, it only takes so
                            long *if you rely on just the dice*. If you are willing to blow out
                            your fate points on invocations and tags, you can actually end those
                            fights rather quickly in the default system, especially if you have
                            the better skill rank.

                            Simply put, in fights with named characters, you're supposed to bring
                            your fate points to bear if you want to win. It's the biggest
                            in-system incentive not to hoard them, and the biggest in-system
                            incentive to get yourself in trouble with compels. Obviously, I
                            already knew this on some level, but I didn't realize what kind of an
                            effect that changing the damage system would have in play.

                            And ultimately, I'm not so sure it's a good idea to remove the need to
                            spend fate points to quickly take out named characters. It creates an
                            expectation that those scenes will be dramatic and important.


                            -L
                          • Landon Darkwood
                            ... If I were going to do it, I wouldn t worry about trying to make it fit the Fudge dice probability spread, and just play poker. Standard five-card, where
                            Message 13 of 24 , Oct 3, 2006
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                              On 10/3/06, mgagan1 <mgagan1@...> wrote:
                              > I'm refering to it again because I still hadn't gotten any response.

                              If I were going to do it, I wouldn't worry about trying to make it fit
                              the Fudge dice probability spread, and just play poker.

                              Standard five-card, where you get one chip for each level of skill you
                              have. You can invoke aspects for two additional chips at any time
                              during the hand. Whoever wins the hand wins the conflict, and anyone
                              who goes "broke" takes a consequence and loses any narrative control
                              over the circumstances of their defeat.

                              Or something.


                              -L
                            • Robert Donoghue
                              ... Just for Sheer futzing, I d go back to the vertical model on a character sheet, since that lets you do this: [ ] [ ] [ ] [ ] ( ) _________________ ( )
                              Message 14 of 24 , Oct 3, 2006
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                                On Oct 3, 2006, at 1:17 PM, Landon Darkwood wrote:
                                > So, say your health default is 4. If someone doesn't take Endurance,
                                > their track looks like this:
                                >
                                > Stress: [ ][ ][ ][ ] Consequences: [ ][ ][ ]

                                Just for Sheer futzing, I'd go back to the vertical model on a
                                character sheet, since that lets you do this:
                                [ ]
                                [ ]
                                [ ]
                                [ ]
                                ( ) _________________
                                ( ) _________________
                                ( ) _________________
                                [X]

                                Interestingly, this also opens up a somewhat meaner set of
                                possibilities. As an example:

                                [ ]
                                [ ]
                                ( ) _________________
                                [ ]
                                ( ) _________________
                                [ ]
                                ( ) _________________
                                [X]

                                Might be a way to make a game feel a little grittier, by having
                                consequences show up earlier in the process. (For this, I'd add the
                                extra boxes at the beginning, but an industrious GM might spread them
                                around). This also has some interesting implications if you mix it
                                with other damage ideas, like weapons that fill in more than one box.

                                Bottom line, yeah, you get some good mileage if you think of
                                consequences as boxes of their own.

                                -Rob D.

                                PS - As to grittiness and length of the ladder - yeah, fate points
                                will make a mockery of any expectation. The ladder can sway the
                                length of a fight, but the real measure is going to be player
                                investment, as expressed by how hard they're willing to spend.
                                Addressing that requires tweaks on the FP economy level as well as
                                the ladder itself.
                              • John Earl Bogart
                                Since I came up with the idea of treating consequences like boxes, I ve had the chance to test it in play--albeit in a small conflict. The system worked well,
                                Message 15 of 24 , Oct 3, 2006
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                                  Since I came up with the idea of treating consequences like boxes, I've had the chance to test it in play--albeit in a small conflict. The system worked well, but my one complaint was that consequences didn't happen as soon as I wanted. So I had just decided to do the same thing Rob said below and intersperse consequences with stress. I should have a chance to try it out this weekend.

                                  My only small complaint is that it won't look as clean on the character sheet I made...

                                  -John Bogart


                                  ________________________________

                                  From: FateRPG@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Robert Donoghue
                                  Sent: Tue 10/3/2006 11:38 AM
                                  To: FateRPG@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [FateRPG] Western (Re: Porting SOTC to Other Settings)




                                  On Oct 3, 2006, at 1:17 PM, Landon Darkwood wrote:
                                  > So, say your health default is 4. If someone doesn't take Endurance,
                                  > their track looks like this:
                                  >
                                  > Stress: [ ][ ][ ][ ] Consequences: [ ][ ][ ]

                                  Just for Sheer futzing, I'd go back to the vertical model on a
                                  character sheet, since that lets you do this:
                                  [ ]
                                  [ ]
                                  [ ]
                                  [ ]
                                  ( ) _________________
                                  ( ) _________________
                                  ( ) _________________
                                  [X]

                                  Interestingly, this also opens up a somewhat meaner set of
                                  possibilities. As an example:

                                  [ ]
                                  [ ]
                                  ( ) _________________
                                  [ ]
                                  ( ) _________________
                                  [ ]
                                  ( ) _________________
                                  [X]

                                  Might be a way to make a game feel a little grittier, by having
                                  consequences show up earlier in the process. (For this, I'd add the
                                  extra boxes at the beginning, but an industrious GM might spread them
                                  around). This also has some interesting implications if you mix it
                                  with other damage ideas, like weapons that fill in more than one box.

                                  Bottom line, yeah, you get some good mileage if you think of
                                  consequences as boxes of their own.

                                  -Rob D.

                                  PS - As to grittiness and length of the ladder - yeah, fate points
                                  will make a mockery of any expectation. The ladder can sway the
                                  length of a fight, but the real measure is going to be player
                                  investment, as expressed by how hard they're willing to spend.
                                  Addressing that requires tweaks on the FP economy level as well as
                                  the ladder itself.
                                • freelancepope
                                  ... I d forgotten about that one. Mostly because it confused me a bit. Did you intend to draw a hand, then convert that to the ladder modifier (better hand
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Oct 4, 2006
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                                    --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, "mgagan1" <mgagan1@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, "freelancepope" <freelancepope@> t
                                    >
                                    > > I'd want to justify the card-mechanic; not just have it be a
                                    > > substitute for rolling dice. You can do nifty tricks like holding


                                    > Maybe you saw my post and rejected it as a possibility:
                                    >
                                    > http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/FateRPG/message/6426
                                    >
                                    > I'm refering to it again because I still hadn't gotten any response.
                                    >
                                    > The same idea, using a five cards "poker hand" (5cF), with dominating
                                    > suits (mini-flushes) or pairs being damage enhancers really appealed
                                    > to me, but I still need help figuring odds, particularly with the
                                    > Jokers being wild.


                                    I'd forgotten about that one. Mostly because it confused me a bit.
                                    Did you intend to draw a hand, then convert that to the ladder
                                    modifier (better hand gets +, lousier hands -)? I think it would be
                                    easier to draw a hand (modified however for skill) against the GM's
                                    draw (modified for diffficulty).
                                  • freelancepope
                                    ... This seems good for more elaborate actions or for playing out a scene, but would likely slow things down a bit for simple actions. Jesse
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Oct 4, 2006
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                                      --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, "Landon Darkwood" <lcdarkwood@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > On 10/3/06, mgagan1 <mgagan1@...> wrote:
                                      > > I'm refering to it again because I still hadn't gotten any response.
                                      >
                                      > If I were going to do it, I wouldn't worry about trying to make it fit
                                      > the Fudge dice probability spread, and just play poker.
                                      >
                                      > Standard five-card, where you get one chip for each level of skill you
                                      > have. You can invoke aspects for two additional chips at any time
                                      > during the hand. Whoever wins the hand wins the conflict, and anyone
                                      > who goes "broke" takes a consequence and loses any narrative control
                                      > over the circumstances of their defeat.


                                      This seems good for more elaborate actions or for playing out a scene,
                                      but would likely slow things down a bit for simple actions.


                                      Jesse
                                    • Landon Darkwood
                                      ... I don t really call for randomizers to handle most simple actions anyway. Especially if I can t think of an interesting consequence for failure. -L
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Oct 4, 2006
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                                        On 10/4/06, freelancepope <freelancepope@...> wrote:
                                        > This seems good for more elaborate actions or for playing out a scene,
                                        > but would likely slow things down a bit for simple actions.

                                        I don't really call for randomizers to handle most simple actions
                                        anyway. Especially if I can't think of an interesting consequence for
                                        failure.


                                        -L
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