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Lucky Aspect

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  • cu0r3matt0
    Please, may you explain in simple terms how the Lucky aspect is balanced against other less universal ones? I mean, aside from the fact that it can be a boring
    Message 1 of 29 , Nov 7, 2005
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      Please, may you explain in simple terms how
      the Lucky aspect is balanced against other
      less universal ones?

      I mean, aside from the fact that it can be a
      boring aspect, and that a GM may veto it, what
      mechanics, in the current edition, keeps Lucky
      from being the "Be All, End All" of Aspects?

      TIA
      -- CM
    • Robert Donoghue
      Easy. It s boring. That may seem flip, but that s actually a really meaningful limitation on a few levels. First, it s never gonna give you any fate points.
      Message 2 of 29 , Nov 7, 2005
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        Easy. It's boring.

        That may seem flip, but that's actually a really meaningful
        limitation on a few levels.

        First, it's never gonna give you any fate points. Ever. That is a
        great big mechanical kick in the teeth, automatically rendering it
        less mechanically potent than something like "Good intentions" which
        is equally universally applicable (I mean, when _aren't_ your
        intentions good?) but which offers the potential for complications
        (because we know what comes of good intentions) and as such, will
        generate Fate points for you.[1]

        Second, because it lacks any thematic focus, it's easier to run down
        your fate point reserve staggeringly quickly.

        Third, since not everything is a fight, succeeding by luck gets you
        none of the secondary benefits of success (respect, accolades, the
        interest of your peers) and so on, which is problematic in any game
        with a rich backdrop.

        Fourth, it's the easiest Aspect in the world for the GM to declare is
        _not_ applicable, because it's non-applicability is exactly as
        arbitrary as it's applicability.

        Fifth, when you apply it, you are putting yourself in the GMs hands.
        Now, it would be jerkish for the GM to not have luck go your way, but
        at the same time, "go your way" is broad enough to get you out of
        harms way and away from danger, and heck, we know nothing interesting
        every happens around danger.[2]


        Would all these need to apply? Of course not - how much of a problem
        things are or are not depends entirely upon the individual player and
        GM. And heck, I'm all for Luck-flavored aspects, but I really prefer
        the ones that are actually fun, like "strange luck" or "interesting
        times" because they're a ton more fun to play.

        -Rob

        [1] Ok, not never. You go to vegas, expect beaucoup fate points as
        Mobsters descend upon you for cheating.

        [2] This one comes back to one of the great dangers of RPing - if you
        want the character who can't ever be endangered, then you're often
        better playing "9-to-5-job-man" while others do this crazy, risky
        stuff. You can get a lot more reading done. :)



        On Nov 7, 2005, at 12:07 PM, cu0r3matt0 wrote:

        > Please, may you explain in simple terms how
        > the Lucky aspect is balanced against other
        > less universal ones?
        >
        > I mean, aside from the fact that it can be a
        > boring aspect, and that a GM may veto it, what
        > mechanics, in the current edition, keeps Lucky
        > from being the "Be All, End All" of Aspects?
        >
        > TIA
        > -- CM
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • cu0r3matt0
        ... I especially like your #1, #3 and #4 points. I asked this because I m not very experienced with Fate. I ve players with a pretty traditional background,
        Message 3 of 29 , Nov 7, 2005
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          >> Please, may you explain in simple terms how
          >> the Lucky aspect is balanced against other
          >> less universal ones?
          >
          > [...]
          > First, it's never gonna give you any fate points.
          > [...]
          > Third, since not everything is a fight, succeeding by luck gets you
          > none of the secondary benefits of success (respect, accolades, the
          > interest of your peers) and so on, which is problematic in any game
          > with a rich backdrop.
          >
          > Fourth, it's the easiest Aspect in the world for the
          > GM to declare is _not_ applicable, because it's
          > non-applicability is exactly as arbitrary as it's applicability.

          I especially like your #1, #3 and #4 points.
          I asked this because I'm not very experienced
          with Fate. I've players with a pretty traditional
          background, the kind that choose "Intelligent",
          "Lucky", etc.

          So I want to GM in a way they are persuaded that
          less universal Aspects are not only more rewarding
          but also more convenient. It's not easy when the
          players don't think "interesting to the story" is
          a good reason, tought!

          Another idea I have is to limit each Aspect to one.
          That way even if they take some annoying trait they
          have only limited use out of it.

          Does it make sense, or am I not understanding Fate?

          Thanks a lot Rob,
          -- CM
        • Manveru
          ... Not answering your question for Rob, but that all sounds feasible, and more of a matter of taste than game-breaking. On another note, Lucky can make a
          Message 4 of 29 , Nov 7, 2005
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            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: FateRPG@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:FateRPG@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of cu0r3matt0
            > Sent: Monday, November 07, 2005 11:47 PM
            > To: FateRPG@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [FateRPG] Re: Lucky Aspect
            >
            > I especially like your #1, #3 and #4 points.
            > I asked this because I'm not very experienced with Fate. I've
            > players with a pretty traditional background, the kind that
            > choose "Intelligent", "Lucky", etc.
            >
            > So I want to GM in a way they are persuaded that less
            > universal Aspects are not only more rewarding but also more
            > convenient. It's not easy when the players don't think
            > "interesting to the story" is a good reason, tought!
            >
            > Another idea I have is to limit each Aspect to one.
            > That way even if they take some annoying trait they have only
            > limited use out of it.
            >
            > Does it make sense, or am I not understanding Fate?
            >
            > Thanks a lot Rob,
            > -- CM

            Not answering your question for Rob, but that all sounds feasible, and more
            of a matter of taste than game-breaking.

            On another note, 'Lucky' can make a servicable Aspect for that snarky,
            shifty, wise-cracking NPC, although there's any number of "Lucky with/at X"
            variations that would provide more color with a narrower focus for precisely
            all the reasons outlined by any number of Aspect-related posts up here.
            Honestly, I don't think there's a universal Aspect, within any bounds of
            so-called reason (Omnipotent and Omnipresent notwithstanding), that can't
            provide hooks. Apart from Rob's "Mobsters descend upon you in Vegas"
            example, I can think of some ways for "Lucky" to get a PC more than they
            bargained for ...

            Come to think of it, anyone ever thought of 'silent' Aspect invocation on
            the GM's part? I.e. Invoking an Aspect for a Fate Point, but not actually
            GIVING them the Fate Point until the invoke shows its colors later that
            session, or even another session?

            For example:

            GM -> "As you stop to tie your shoe on your way home from the club, you're
            struck in the head by a falling wallet, stuffed with money, etc. etc. etc."
            [GM 'silently' invokes the character's Lucky Aspect, noting to give them a
            Fate Point back later, when the plot comes around to it and they get bit in
            the a** .. Bidding notwithstanding of course, although that could certainly
            serve to simply articulate/elaborate further, or even resolve and
            transition, the 'pay-back' scene, and generate an entire sub-plot thread
            without any dice rolling required or significant work on the GM's part, the
            scene could write itself .. Love that! ;^).

            And then the next session or so, the wallet's owner/seekers come around
            looking for it and show their face(s), which probably aren't very happy,
            possibly by virtue of another of the character's (or even better, a
            companion character's) negative Aspect invocation.

            Ok, so in that example the 'silent' invoke is frankly quite obviously
            associated with the character's "Lucky" Aspect, and if plaeyrs know that
            this could 'silent' invocation thing lies up their GM's sleeves, it could
            possibly lose it's surprise factor, although it could create tension just as
            easily! ;^), and no, this certainly wouldn't be something to do all the time
            or the trick would lose its pazazz, but I'm sure y'all get the gist ..

            Can anyone think of some caveats/troubleshots with this idea? Or
            elaborations/mutations?

            (OT: Speaking of mutations, I'm getting into Beck's "Guero" album quite
            heavily of late, at least once I hit track 4 - "Missing". I never really got
            into him before .. particularily his "rapping", but I like where he's going
            with this one a lot)



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          • Robert Donoghue
            ... That is a totally workable fix, and I think you re thinking in the right direction. Let me just throw a few other points that might be usable to you.
            Message 5 of 29 , Nov 8, 2005
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              On Nov 8, 2005, at 1:46 AM, cu0r3matt0 wrote:
              >
              > So I want to GM in a way they are persuaded that
              > less universal Aspects are not only more rewarding
              > but also more convenient. It's not easy when the
              > players don't think "interesting to the story" is
              > a good reason, tought!
              >
              > Another idea I have is to limit each Aspect to one.
              > That way even if they take some annoying trait they
              > have only limited use out of it.


              That is a totally workable fix, and I think you're thinking in the
              right direction. Let me just throw a few other points that might be
              usable to you.

              First, when someone picks a universal aspect, take a minute to talk
              with them about what they mean by it. One of the best ways to do
              this is to see if there's some sort of character from a book or movie
              that they have in mind, and use that as a basis. Say, for example,
              the character is thinking they're lucky like Indiana Jones. With
              that understanding, then luck can get them out of scrapes, btu can
              also throw them into preposterous situations.

              Second, consider giving them an extra aspect for free, with the
              qualifier that it be something more interesting. Depending upon what
              you're players like, you can pitch it as a "drawback" or you could
              pitch it as a bonus for, i dunno, bringing snacks. I;m all for
              things that convince players to bring snacks. Make sure this "free"
              aspect is a bit richer and more double edged than the others, and
              then just stand back. In practice. I've found nothing convinces
              people of how useful an interesting aspect is then just "using" one.

              As a corrolary to #2, you could also say that one or more of the
              aspects the characters pick must fit certain guidelines. What
              guidelines you choose can depend on the game, but it could range from
              "An aspect for your family" to "A line from your character's theme
              song". This lets you slip in something more interesting without it
              seeming like a mandate. And if the game is already running, this is
              something you could also offer as "advancement"

              Lastly, you when a player picks an aspect, you can explicitly ask
              them to tell you about a situation where it could help them out and
              where it might cause a problem. New players will usually go light on
              things that cause problems, but if you specifically say "I'm really
              not seeing how you're going to generate fate points. What sort of
              problems to _you_ think you'll have?" Some players may change
              things, some may not. If they want to stay purely positive, then
              don't worry about it - eventually someone in your group will realize
              that double-edged aspects are the true way to min-max, and then
              everyone else will want to emulate them.

              In any case, finding a group's comfort point with aspects can be a
              bit of an adventure in an of itself, so I wish you luck in getting
              your group there.

              -Rob D.
            • Robert Donoghue
              ... I do something very similar (and will have a proper write up for it someday) and I tend to refer to it as a framing compel. At the beginning of a game,
              Message 6 of 29 , Nov 8, 2005
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                On Nov 8, 2005, at 2:51 AM, Manveru wrote:
                >
                > Can anyone think of some caveats/troubleshots with this idea? Or
                > elaborations/mutations?


                I do something very similar (and will have a proper write up for it
                someday) and I tend to refer to it as a "framing" compel. At the
                beginning of a game, I will often give a couple of players up front
                without an explanation. technically, I'm paying them for the use of
                one of their aspects which I've based the plot on, such as an enemy.
                In theory, they could try to bid against them, but I have never had
                that happen, and if it did, well, I'd just file off the serial
                numbers and use a villain who is a lot _like_ the PCs nemesis, but
                isn't, which I would think would be an educational disappointment to
                many players.

                All in all, it works very, very well. For my own sake, I consider an
                adventure to be well designed when I have at least one extra FP for
                every player at the outset of things, indicating that I have
                successfully incorporated hooks for everyone.

                -Rob D.
              • Hans
                ... {snip} ... bounds of ... that can t ... Hmmm. The invocations on that Aspect could rapidly make the game a misery for the player, if they had any other
                Message 7 of 29 , Nov 8, 2005
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                  --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, "Manveru" <manveru@s...> wrote:
                  >
                  {snip}
                  > Honestly, I don't think there's a universal Aspect, within any
                  bounds of
                  > so-called reason (Omnipotent and Omnipresent notwithstanding),
                  that can't
                  > provide hooks.

                  Hmmm. The invocations on that Aspect could rapidly make the game a
                  misery for the player, if they had any other aspects as well. Say
                  they have the aspect "Loves nature" as well as "Omnipotent and
                  Omnipresent"...

                  Player: "Ok, I'm going to..."
                  GM: "Wait a moment, a sparrow is falling in Finland, and since you
                  love nature, and are omnipotent and omnipresent, you really want to
                  save that sparrow."
                  Player: "Crap, ok, I'll save the sparrow."
                  GM: "Here is your Fate point"
                  Player: "Now I'm going to..."
                  GM: "Hold on a sec. There is a whaling vessel in the Pacific
                  spearing a Sperm Whale. You really want to save that sperm whale."
                  PLayer: "Darn it, let the whale die, here is your Fate point back."
                  GM: "Thanks."
                  Player: "Ok, Now I'm going to..."
                  GM: "Wait. There are some methane filter breaters deep in the
                  frigid seas of Europa that are about to die in a carbon dioxide
                  pocket explosion. You really want to save those methane filter
                  breathers..."

                  Continue until that player leaves the game, or sees sense and makes
                  up a new character.
                • cu0r3matt0
                  ... That was way too fun! Thank you for the good time! :)
                  Message 8 of 29 , Nov 9, 2005
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                    > Hmmm. The invocations on that Aspect could rapidly make the game a
                    > misery for the player, if they had any other aspects as well. Say
                    > they have the aspect "Loves nature" as well as "Omnipotent and
                    > Omnipresent"...
                    >
                    > Player: "Ok, I'm going to..."
                    > GM: "Wait a moment, a sparrow is falling in Finland, and since you
                    > love nature, and are omnipotent and omnipresent, you really want to
                    > save that sparrow."
                    > Player: "Crap, ok, I'll save the sparrow."
                    > GM: "Here is your Fate point"
                    > Player: "Now I'm going to..."
                    > GM: "Hold on a sec. There is a whaling vessel in the Pacific
                    > spearing a Sperm Whale. You really want to save that sperm whale."
                    > PLayer: "Darn it, let the whale die, here is your Fate point back."
                    > GM: "Thanks."
                    > Player: "Ok, Now I'm going to..."
                    > GM: "Wait. There are some methane filter breaters deep in the
                    > frigid seas of Europa that are about to die in a carbon dioxide
                    > pocket explosion. You really want to save those methane filter
                    > breathers..."
                    >
                    > Continue until that player leaves the game, or sees sense and makes
                    > up a new character.

                    That was way too fun! Thank you for the good time! :)
                  • Manveru
                    ... Awesome! I like those concepts, glad this notion has been developed further, and even tested in play, and look forward to the future write up. Cheers
                    Message 9 of 29 , Nov 9, 2005
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                      > I do something very similar (and will have a proper write up for it
                      > someday) and I tend to refer to it as a "framing" compel. At
                      > the beginning of a game, I will often give a couple of
                      > players up front without an explanation. technically, I'm
                      > paying them for the use of one of their aspects which I've based the
                      > plot on, such as an enemy.
                      >
                      > In theory, they could try to bid against them, but I have
                      > never had that happen, and if it did, well, I'd just file off
                      > the serial numbers and use a villain who is a lot _like_ the
                      > PCs nemesis, but isn't, which I would think would be an
                      > educational disappointment to many players.
                      >
                      > All in all, it works very, very well. For my own sake, I
                      > consider an adventure to be well designed when I have at
                      > least one extra FP for every player at the outset of things,
                      > indicating that I have successfully incorporated hooks for everyone.
                      >
                      > -Rob D.

                      Awesome! I like those concepts, glad this notion has been developed
                      further, and even tested in play, and look forward to the future write up.

                      Cheers



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                    • cu0r3matt0
                      Great advice Rob, I ll keep them in mind when we ll do characters. Actually I ve saved all the suggestion, along with some my personal elaboration. ... Pure
                      Message 10 of 29 , Nov 9, 2005
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                        Great advice Rob,

                        I'll keep them in mind when we'll do characters.
                        Actually I've saved all the suggestion, along with
                        some my personal elaboration.

                        > > Another idea I have is to limit each Aspect to one.
                        > > That way even if they take some annoying trait they
                        > > have only limited use out of it.
                        >
                        > That is a totally workable fix, and I think
                        > you're thinking in the right direction.

                        :-)

                        > [...]
                        > If they want to stay purely positive, then
                        > don't worry about it - eventually someone in
                        > your group will realize that double-edged
                        > aspects are the true way to min-max, and then
                        > everyone else will want to emulate them.

                        Pure gold. Yes, I'm better understanding the
                        way Fate works. It was difficult for me to figure
                        out how the game (especially Aspects) is actually
                        played.

                        Does requesting Aspects composed by two or more
                        words results in more interesting, double-faced
                        traits? Does this sound reasonable?

                        It would be wonderful if the DMing tips on
                        this board were collected and reorganized into
                        something like "Fate: A Play Guide". I myself
                        have archived some of them, the most relevant
                        to my doubts.

                        Again thanks for the support.
                        -- CM
                      • cu0r3matt0
                        ... This is one of those *practical* GM advice I was talking about. Having guidelines such as this is very useful especially for a newbie to Fate (like me).
                        Message 11 of 29 , Nov 9, 2005
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                          > For my own sake, I consider an
                          > adventure to be well designed when I have at least one extra FP for
                          > every player at the outset of things, indicating that I have
                          > successfully incorporated hooks for everyone.

                          This is one of those *practical* GM advice I was talking about.
                          Having guidelines such as this is very useful especially for
                          a newbie to Fate (like me).

                          Great list
                          -- CM
                        • herzog_tarjan
                          ... Yeah, I also saved the two posts you were referring to, they are great! Maybe there could be a section in the FATE wiki for tips from this list? (It seems
                          Message 12 of 29 , Nov 10, 2005
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                            --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, "cu0r3matt0" <cu0r3matt0@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > For my own sake, I consider an
                            > > adventure to be well designed when I have at least one extra FP for
                            > > every player at the outset of things, indicating that I have
                            > > successfully incorporated hooks for everyone.
                            >
                            > This is one of those *practical* GM advice I was talking about.
                            > Having guidelines such as this is very useful especially for
                            > a newbie to Fate (like me).

                            Yeah, I also saved the two posts you were referring to, they are great!

                            Maybe there could be a section in the FATE wiki for tips from this
                            list? (It seems that new sections in the wiki cannot be made by guests)
                          • Robert Donoghue
                            ... I don t know if you need to request it, but it s definitely important to make sure players know that it s something that they _can_ do. A lot of times,
                            Message 13 of 29 , Nov 10, 2005
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                              On Nov 9, 2005, at 8:18 PM, cu0r3matt0 wrote:

                              >
                              > Does requesting Aspects composed by two or more
                              > words results in more interesting, double-faced
                              > traits? Does this sound reasonable?


                              I don't know if you need to request it, but it's definitely important
                              to make sure players know that it's something that they _can_ do. A
                              lot of times, once players realize they can choose aspects like "Nick
                              of time" or "First on the scene" they end up getting inspired to try
                              things that they think will be fun.

                              More generally though, asking for a little more detail in choosing an
                              aspect (So "lucky" becomes "Strange Luck" or "Knight" becomes "Knight
                              of the Chalice") can be useful if you're worried that the aspect is
                              too bland.

                              -Rob D.
                            • Mike Holmes
                              ... Hey, this is good advice for any GM. In fact, I d go so far as to say that it s so good that it could probably be put in as rules. Check out the game Dogs
                              Message 14 of 29 , Nov 10, 2005
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                                >From: "cu0r3matt0" <cu0r3matt0@...>
                                >
                                > > For my own sake, I consider an�
                                > > adventure to be well designed when I have at least one extra FP for�
                                > > every player at the outset of things, indicating that I have�
                                > > successfully incorporated hooks for everyone.
                                >
                                >This is one of those *practical* GM advice I was talking about.
                                >Having guidelines such as this is very useful especially for
                                >a newbie to Fate (like me).

                                Hey, this is good advice for any GM. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that
                                it's so good that it could probably be put in as rules. Check out the game
                                Dogs in the Vinyard for a ruleset that tells you precisely step by step how
                                to make an adventure instead of showing you sample ones and saying "make
                                something like this." This is, to me, one of the most powerful new tools in
                                RPG design. If FATE were to inlcude something like the following
                                hypothetical, I'd think it would be a strong addition to the design:

                                1. Select several interesting aspects from the PCs that feel like they might
                                work together.
                                2. Give them FP for the ones selected. Rotate which player gets more each
                                session (ala Prime Time Adventures).
                                3. Come up with new or existing NPCs that can punch the buttons for the
                                Aspects in question.
                                4. Devise some central conflict that makes all these NPCs do the punching.

                                Completely the reverse of standard design where you come up with a concept
                                for the "adventure" and then try to find things in it to "hook" the PCs.
                                Instead you "grab" the PCs (these are technical terms), by making the
                                situation be about their aspects, the "adventure" then being how the players
                                decide to react to the events.

                                That's the thirty second version, I'm sure with thought something a lot
                                better can be achieved. At the moment, FATE gives you some powerful tools,
                                but then says, "Use them to force adventures that are prepared like the ones
                                that we've all seen before." This has the problem that players still have
                                the choice to not accept invocations. It's much better if the "adventure" is
                                simply what the players decide to do when the NPCs or physical forces simply
                                make the player make that decision. In my opinion. And with the tools FATE
                                provides, I think that a very easy to follow mechanical process can be
                                produced that makes prep less a matter of sheer open-ended creativity, and
                                more a system in which the GM's creativity is channeled into easy results.

                                Old D&D was pretty much like this:
                                1. Make a map.
                                2. Put monsters in rooms.
                                3. Determine what treasure the monsters had.

                                This was similarly easy because you had a step by step system to follow.
                                Yeah, I don't like that sort of play, either. But at least prep was simple.
                                Somewhere along the way in gaming prep became, "come up with a massive
                                backstory, and plot, and figure out how you can railroad the PCs through
                                it." The poor results of this sort of play stifled a lot of otherwise
                                interested RPG players. So I think that any time you can show GMs another
                                way to prepare for play, one that works consistently, it's one of the most
                                important things you can do to make for ongoing play that everyone really
                                enjoys.

                                Mike
                              • Robert Donoghue
                                On Nov 10, 2005, at 9:48 AM, Mike Holmes wrote: Yeah, not much to add (Except that I really need to stop giving away copied of DitV
                                Message 15 of 29 , Nov 10, 2005
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                                  On Nov 10, 2005, at 9:48 AM, Mike Holmes wrote:
                                  <snipped much good stuff>

                                  Yeah, not much to add (Except that I really need to stop giving away
                                  copied of DitV before I get a chance to read them) except to say that
                                  Mike is insightful as ever, and that he's hit on a lot of the points
                                  we're writing about already, though by god, we've got FLOWCHARTS!


                                  A lot of it's not going to show up til Dresden comes out, but I think
                                  we've got some interesting stuff in the works on that front. While
                                  there's a lot of general adventure design stuff in Dresden, the real
                                  kicker is that it's a game about mysteries, and if we manage to give
                                  solid, useful device on how to create and run a mystery, then I'll
                                  consider it a win.

                                  -Rob D.
                                • Mike Holmes
                                  ... Well, that makes one programmer ecstatic. :-) ... That seems like an excellent goal. Expecially since mysteries are hard to do well in RPGs. Mike
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Nov 10, 2005
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                                    >From: Robert Donoghue <rdonoghue@...>
                                    >
                                    >... though by god, we've got FLOWCHARTS!

                                    Well, that makes one programmer ecstatic. :-)

                                    >While�
                                    >there's a lot of general adventure design stuff in Dresden, the real�
                                    >kicker is that it's a game about mysteries, and if we manage to give�
                                    >solid, useful device on how to create and run a mystery, then I'll�
                                    >consider it a win.

                                    That seems like an excellent goal. Expecially since mysteries are hard to do
                                    well in RPGs.

                                    Mike
                                  • James Pacek
                                    ... Someone (a long time ago) suggested a Samurai game where every Aspect was a haiku. I always liked that idea. Maybe you could create a list of Aspects that
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Nov 10, 2005
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                                      On Nov 10, 2005, at 5:28 AM, Robert Donoghue wrote:

                                      I don't know if you need to request it, but it's definitely important  

                                      to make sure players know that it's something that they _can_ do.  A  

                                      lot of times, once players realize they can choose aspects like "Nick  

                                      of time" or "First on the scene" they end up getting inspired to try  

                                      things that they think will be fun.


                                      More generally though, asking for a little more detail in choosing an  

                                      aspect (So "lucky" becomes "Strange Luck" or "Knight" becomes "Knight  

                                      of the Chalice") can be useful if you're worried that the aspect is  

                                      too bland.


                                      Someone (a long time ago) suggested a Samurai game where every Aspect was a haiku.  I always liked that idea.  

                                      Maybe you could create a list of Aspects that are good "Strange luck, Knight of the Chalice, First on the scene" according to your needs and one that is bad.  Your players could then compare the Aspects they are planning to each list to see if their Aspects better fit the spirit of one list or the other.  A kind of "concept attainment" exercise.


                                      Thanks,


                                      _______________________

                                      Jim Pacek

                                      wilmanric@...


                                    • James Pacek
                                      ... Looking forward to seeing those. ... Agreed. Thanks, _______________________ Jim Pacek wilmanric@cableaz.com
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Nov 10, 2005
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                                        On Nov 10, 2005, at 10:43 AM, Mike Holmes wrote:

                                        From: Robert Donoghue <rdonoghue@...>


                                        ... though by god, we've got FLOWCHARTS!


                                        Well, that makes one programmer ecstatic. :-)


                                        Looking forward to seeing those.


                                        While 

                                        there's a lot of general adventure design stuff in Dresden, the real 

                                        kicker is that it's a game about mysteries, and if we manage to give 

                                        solid, useful device on how to create and run a mystery, then I'll 

                                        consider it a win.


                                        That seems like an excellent goal. Expecially since mysteries are hard to do 

                                        well in RPGs.


                                        Agreed.  


                                        Thanks,


                                        _______________________

                                        Jim Pacek

                                        wilmanric@...


                                      • nilsderondeau
                                        ... Erm... Why wait? Anyone willing to post, for example, a realtionship map? Or even an FC?
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Nov 11, 2005
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                                          --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, James Pacek <wilmanric@c...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > On Nov 10, 2005, at 10:43 AM, Mike Holmes wrote:
                                          >
                                          > >> From: Robert Donoghue <rdonoghue@m...>
                                          > >>
                                          > >> ... though by god, we've got FLOWCHARTS!
                                          > >
                                          > > Well, that makes one programmer ecstatic. :-)
                                          >
                                          > Looking forward to seeing those.


                                          Erm... Why wait? Anyone willing to post, for example, a realtionship
                                          map? Or even an FC?
                                        • Robert Donoghue
                                          Well, here, I tell you what - I don t want to show the Dresden ones yet, but Here s one for a roman high school spy game (don t ask) I ran briefly, just to
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Nov 11, 2005
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                                            Well, here, I tell you what - I don't want to show the Dresden ones
                                            yet, but Here's one for a roman high school spy game (don't ask) I
                                            ran briefly, just to start the ball rolling.

                                            http://www.logrus.com/~moose/allmenarebrothers.jpg


                                            I've got one from my last Spirit of the Century Playest somewhere
                                            too, so if I find it, I'll throw it up.

                                            -Rob D.


                                            On Nov 11, 2005, at 8:15 AM, nilsderondeau wrote:

                                            > --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, James Pacek <wilmanric@c...> wrote:
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            >> On Nov 10, 2005, at 10:43 AM, Mike Holmes wrote:
                                            >>
                                            >>>> From: Robert Donoghue <rdonoghue@m...>
                                            >>>>
                                            >>>> ... though by god, we've got FLOWCHARTS!
                                            >>>
                                            >>> Well, that makes one programmer ecstatic. :-)
                                            >>
                                            >> Looking forward to seeing those.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Erm... Why wait? Anyone willing to post, for example, a realtionship
                                            > map? Or even an FC?
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
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                                            > Fate * http://www.faterpg.com/
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                                          • James Pacek
                                            What program did you use to make that? ... Thanks, _______________________ Jim Pacek wilmanric@cableaz.com
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Nov 11, 2005
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                                              What program did you use to make that?

                                              On Nov 11, 2005, at 9:11 AM, Robert Donoghue wrote:

                                              Well, here, I tell you what - I don't want to show the Dresden ones  

                                              yet, but Here's one for a roman high school spy game (don't ask) I  

                                              ran briefly, just to start the ball rolling.



                                              Thanks,


                                              _______________________

                                              Jim Pacek

                                              wilmanric@...


                                            • Robert Donoghue
                                              Omnigraffle Pro - It s the Visio alternative for the Mac and I m quite in love with it. -Rob D.
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Nov 11, 2005
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                                                Omnigraffle Pro - It's the Visio alternative for the Mac and I'm
                                                quite in love with it.

                                                -Rob D.

                                                On Nov 11, 2005, at 11:33 AM, James Pacek wrote:

                                                > What program did you use to make that?
                                                >
                                                > On Nov 11, 2005, at 9:11 AM, Robert Donoghue wrote:
                                                >
                                                >> Well, here, I tell you what - I don't want to show the Dresden ones
                                                >> yet, but Here's one for a roman high school spy game (don't ask) I
                                                >> ran briefly, just to start the ball rolling.
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Thanks,
                                                >
                                                > _______________________
                                                > Jim Pacek
                                                > wilmanric@...
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Fate * http://www.faterpg.com/
                                                >
                                                > If you enjoy Fate and are willing to lend your financial support,
                                                > please take a look at http://www.faterpg.com/donate.php
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                                >
                                                > Visit your group "FateRPG" on the web.
                                                >
                                                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                > FateRPG-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                >
                                                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                                >
                                                >
                                              • James Pacek
                                                I thought so. I have that too. Very sweet program. ... Thanks, _______________________ Jim Pacek wilmanric@cableaz.com
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Nov 11, 2005
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                                                  I thought so.  I have that too.  Very sweet program.

                                                  On Nov 11, 2005, at 9:47 AM, Robert Donoghue wrote:

                                                  Omnigraffle Pro - It's the Visio alternative for the Mac and I'm  

                                                  quite in love with it.



                                                  Thanks,


                                                  _______________________

                                                  Jim Pacek

                                                  wilmanric@...


                                                • alejandro jose gervasio duarte
                                                  i have omnigraffle and haven t taken the time to learn it, what do you like about it and how do you use it. does anyone have any templates that are good for
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Nov 11, 2005
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                                                    i have omnigraffle and haven't taken the time to learn it, what do
                                                    you like about it and how do you use it. does anyone have any
                                                    templates that are good for gming?
                                                    thanks alex


                                                    On Nov 11, 2005, at 8:47 AM, Robert Donoghue wrote:

                                                    > Omnigraffle Pro - It's the Visio alternative for the Mac and I'm
                                                    > quite in love with it.
                                                    >
                                                    > -Rob D.
                                                    >
                                                    > On Nov 11, 2005, at 11:33 AM, James Pacek wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    >> What program did you use to make that?
                                                    >>
                                                    >> On Nov 11, 2005, at 9:11 AM, Robert Donoghue wrote:
                                                    >>
                                                    >>> Well, here, I tell you what - I don't want to show the Dresden ones
                                                    >>> yet, but Here's one for a roman high school spy game (don't ask) I
                                                    >>> ran briefly, just to start the ball rolling.
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Thanks,
                                                    >>
                                                    >> _______________________
                                                    >> Jim Pacek
                                                    >> wilmanric@...
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Fate * http://www.faterpg.com/
                                                    >>
                                                    >> If you enjoy Fate and are willing to lend your financial support,
                                                    >> please take a look at http://www.faterpg.com/donate.php
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Visit your group "FateRPG" on the web.
                                                    >>
                                                    >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                    >> FateRPG-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                    >>
                                                    >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                                    >>
                                                    >>
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------
                                                    > ~-->
                                                    > Get fast access to your favorite Yahoo! Groups. Make Yahoo! your
                                                    > home page
                                                    > http://us.click.yahoo.com/dpRU5A/wUILAA/yQLSAA/7bYplB/TM
                                                    > --------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                    > ~->
                                                    >
                                                    > Fate * http://www.faterpg.com/
                                                    >
                                                    > If you enjoy Fate and are willing to lend your financial support,
                                                    > please take a look at http://www.faterpg.com/donate.php
                                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                  • Robert Donoghue
                                                    ... Kind of off topic, but since I brought it up, I ll field this, though any further discussion should probably be directed to me off list. Specifically, OG
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Nov 11, 2005
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                                                      On Nov 11, 2005, at 3:53 PM, alejandro jose gervasio duarte wrote:
                                                      > i have omnigraffle and haven't taken the time to learn it, what do
                                                      > you like about it and how do you use it. does anyone have any
                                                      > templates that are good for gming?
                                                      > thanks alex



                                                      Kind of off topic, but since I brought it up, I'll field this, though
                                                      any further discussion should probably be directed to me off list.

                                                      Specifically, OG is fast and pretty - fast enough that something like
                                                      that relationship map (copied from the one we drew during chargen)
                                                      took less than 5 minutes to put together. I like to do flowcharts
                                                      and diagrams for my games, usually in pencil, and then convert them
                                                      to something prettier after the fact, and OG is my weapon of choice.

                                                      Also, I like to use it to taunt people using Visio, because it's just
                                                      cooler. :)

                                                      With the exception of the stencils that Clinton R. Nixon[1] put out
                                                      for John Kirk's RPG design patterns[2] there aren't many RPG-specific
                                                      templates out there, though I found that if you're a D&D player, it's
                                                      really easy to grab those tile map .jpg's that wizards.com has on
                                                      their site and make a stencil set out of them for quick dungeon
                                                      building. I do have one or two that I've used for other games (like
                                                      for easy generation of Exalted charm trees) that I may break down and
                                                      put up in the files section of the group when I get the mythical 5
                                                      minutes of free time.

                                                      More generally, while I mock Visio, I do need to take a moment here
                                                      to reiterate the titanic power of simple flowcharting as a tool for
                                                      planning games. For analysis, just throwing the elements down on the
                                                      page and looking at their connections and seeing what they suggest is
                                                      something I've always found very inspirational. And frankly, for
                                                      planning, I almost always have a blank flowchart in among my notes -
                                                      when I'm stumped, I just start filling it in with scenes and events
                                                      according to the flow, and games tend to write themselves. Whether
                                                      you do it with cutting edge software or a pen and paper, it's a good
                                                      trick.

                                                      -Rob D.

                                                      [1] - http://tinyurl.com/dg2dt
                                                      [2] - http://tinyurl.com/8vhls

                                                      (I'm still reading Kirk's work - it's an admirable effort, and may
                                                      end up being one of the most interesting ideas in gaming this year,
                                                      at least if you're a programmer)

                                                      >
                                                    • nilsderondeau
                                                      ... Forgive me if I m completely out of it and behind the times, but it never ocurred to me to draw up the R Map during chargen. Seems obvious but perhaps
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Nov 11, 2005
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                                                        > Specifically, OG is fast and pretty - fast enough that something like
                                                        > that relationship map (copied from the one we drew during chargen)
                                                        > took less than 5 minutes to put together. I like to do flowcharts
                                                        > and diagrams for my games, usually in pencil, and then convert them
                                                        > to something prettier after the fact, and OG is my weapon of choice.

                                                        Forgive me if I'm completely out of it and behind the times, but it
                                                        never ocurred to me to draw up the R Map during chargen. Seems
                                                        obvious but perhaps isn't--how does this go down with your group in
                                                        actual play? Do you have a basic map in mind then pass it around for
                                                        additions?
                                                      • Mike Holmes
                                                        ... To be a technical stick in the mud, this isn t really a relationship map by the Sorcerer definition of one. It s more like an Alyria storymap. For how to
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Nov 11, 2005
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                                                          >From: "nilsderondeau" <juncopartner@...>
                                                          >
                                                          >Forgive me if I'm completely out of it and behind the times, but it
                                                          >never ocurred to me to draw up the R Map during chargen.� Seems
                                                          >obvious but perhaps isn't--how does this go down with your group in
                                                          >actual play?� Do you have a basic map in mind then pass it around for
                                                          >additions?

                                                          To be a technical stick in the mud, this isn't really a relationship map by
                                                          the Sorcerer definition of one. It's more like an Alyria storymap. For how
                                                          to make one of those, you can still download the game for free at this
                                                          point, if I'm not mistaken. See the Alyria forum on The Forge for details.

                                                          Mike
                                                        • Robert Donoghue
                                                          ... Absolutely correct. I think that Sorcerer s relationship map model is handy one, but it s just one of many. The model I favor steals heavily from a game
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Nov 11, 2005
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                                                            On Nov 11, 2005, at 6:05 PM, Mike Holmes wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > To be a technical stick in the mud, this isn't really a
                                                            > relationship map by
                                                            > the Sorcerer definition of one. It's more like an Alyria storymap.
                                                            > For how
                                                            > to make one of those, you can still download the game for free at this
                                                            > point, if I'm not mistaken. See the Alyria forum on The Forge for
                                                            > details.


                                                            Absolutely correct. I think that Sorcerer's relationship map model
                                                            is handy one, but it's just one of many. The model I favor steals
                                                            heavily from a game called Ganakagok (A FANTASTIC game of eskimo-punk
                                                            by Bill White) and because I'm crazy, I wrote up a brief article on
                                                            how I use it and have posted it up to the file section as relmaps.pdf
                                                            (or, if tinyurl handles direct links to files properly, at http://
                                                            tinyurl.com/99qaj)

                                                            -Rob D.
                                                          • lance dyas
                                                            ... Neat flow chart though the Techie in me would like to have these kind of things in Dynamic SVG one could drag the nodes around and each element could have
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Nov 11, 2005
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                                                              Robert Donoghue wrote:
                                                              > Well, here, I tell you what - I don't want to show the Dresden ones
                                                              > yet, but Here's one for a roman high school spy game (don't ask) I
                                                              > ran briefly, just to start the ball rolling.
                                                              >
                                                              > http://www.logrus.com/~moose/allmenarebrothers.jpg
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              Neat flow chart though the Techie in me would like to have these kind
                                                              of things in Dynamic SVG
                                                              one could drag the nodes around and each element could have mouse over
                                                              data revealed.
                                                              For instance the lines could be color coded based on how "close" they
                                                              were to the active node
                                                              and similar things.

                                                              Heck an svg could be made that helped create such things...


                                                              -- Lance Dyas
                                                              The Decision Driven Gaming Center
                                                              "Creating a language for describing how we do things to enable better visualization in roleplay."
                                                              http://www.dyasdesigns.com/roleplay
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