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Re: Sword Duels

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  • Emery Shier
    This may not be what you are looking for, but look at Warhammer rules. The prowess of each person in the duel influences how easily they are hit. Meaning I
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 13, 2005
      This may not be what you are looking for, but look at Warhammer rules.
      The prowess of each person in the duel influences how easily they are
      hit. Meaning I don't easily hit you unless I'm significantly better
      with my sword than you are.
      Emery

      --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, "thailine" <thailine@y...> wrote:
      > The Riddle of the Steel seems to have a kind of neat idea in splitting
      > the pool between offense and defense. The lethality and first blood
      > wins isn't want I was focusing on.
      >
      > I mentioned Swashbuckler because is has moves that influence what is
      > possible next and if you dead end, you have to reset with a purely
      > defensive round.
      >
      > Twists and stunts would be nice flavoring but I was thinking more
      > along the Swashbuckler line with the "move tree."
      >
      > Or even Reiner Knizia's En Garde/Duell with a handicapping system that
      > allows for characters with differing skill levels.
      >
      > ... back to the drawing board.
    • nilsderondeau
      Good post Thijs. Been fencing (épée) for ages too. But as someone else remarked, the original poster would really want to talk to someone involved in
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 20, 2005
        Good post Thijs.

        Been fencing (épée) for ages too. But as someone else remarked, the
        original poster would really want to talk to someone involved in
        recreating the type of fencing he's interested in. It seems like what
        he is really after is a bit of system color.

        If you want to go a little more simulationist, I /can /contribute the
        idea that swordfights (as I know them in modern competetive épée) have
        a logic and a grammar to them. After you spend a few years just
        learning the basics you can then think about tactics. Tactics are a
        progression, sometimes a very frustrating one. They are little chains
        of "If I do this and then he does that..." They can be very, very
        subtle. Essentially you can up the complication (number of
        intentions) or you can descalate. Or, if your oppenent is clueless
        keep doing what works. (Remember, in my world, nobody dies or gets
        wounded).

        For example, I bouted tonight against a very, very good junior. His
        tactics were correct, not great, but his execution and speed were
        fantastic. Still and all I hit him in the hand right away. Which
        surprised him. So, it gave me a few choices. Renew my attacks
        against the hand, this time changing up the distance. Feint for the
        hand in hope of removing his blade in a parry I could derobe and try
        again for the hand and then remise for the leg (my actual dumb choice)
        or (much better) keep distance and counterattck whatever fresh hell he
        had in store for me. Anyway, I'm getting boring. Just to illustrate
        how tactical progression in modern bouting goes. There is a nice
        series of basic articles here:
        http://www.fencing.net/content/category/5/87/43/

        Again, talk to someone involved in historical recreation. I suspect
        their tactical progressions are *much* more conservative and vicious,
        just as the weapons they conduct their activity with are closer in
        weight to actual weapons (my épées weigh in at a laughable 600 grams).

        Cheers,
        Nils
      • swordwarden
        thanks everyone for the solid thoughts. ... in ... interesting stat, Thijs. 25% of what variety of duels? and who is the source on that? thanks. I am endlessly
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 20, 2005
          thanks everyone for the solid thoughts.

          --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Thijs Krijger <krijger@a...> wrote:
          > I prefer movie-swashbuckling as historically 25% of all duels ended
          in
          > both parties killing each other. [not something I want in my games]

          interesting stat, Thijs. 25% of what variety of duels? and who is the
          source on that? thanks. I am endlessly fascinated with dueling.

          once I put together a dueling method for Fate, I will post it.

          - Jason
        • Thijs Krijger
          ... As a scientist I should know better than to quote numbers without references. A lot of my old links on this topic are dead, but I should still have it on
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 21, 2005
            On Tue, 20 Sep 2005, swordwarden wrote:

            > --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Thijs Krijger <krijger@a...> wrote:
            >> I prefer movie-swashbuckling as historically 25% of all duels ended
            > in
            >> both parties killing each other. [not something I want in my games]
            >
            > interesting stat, Thijs. 25% of what variety of duels? and who is the
            > source on that? thanks. I am endlessly fascinated with dueling.

            As a scientist I should know better than to quote numbers without
            references. A lot of my old links on this topic are dead, but I should
            still have it on my harddisk home.

            Either way, a good read to start with is:
            http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/bloody.shtml
            showing why combatants killed each other and hollywood movies are
            non-sense.

            When I was younger I did a complete research to realistic RPG combat [both
            duelling and gunfight] and now I stay far away from realism, too gritty.
            Also I dont like systems like swashbuckler and flashing blades [I love the
            social tables, just not the combat], because suddenly combat becomes a
            game of outguessing the GM [and I never want in my games to have a GM vs
            Players situation], afterall you should outguess your opponent.
            For me a combat system should be able to recreate the fencing in 'The
            Princess Bride' ;)

            > once I put together a dueling method for Fate, I will post it.

            I'm very interested in it. I wrote a system for FUDGE once:
            http://www.fudgefactor.org/2002/12/01/fudging_blades.html
            Still working on a FATE adaptation for my next Musketeer FATE campaign.

            Greetings from Thijs

            Krijger@... or http://www.astro.uu.nl/~krijger
            The world is not enough, it's only a starting point!
          • nilsderondeau
            Should probably retitle this thread Too Much Information about My Training Regime, as it consists of some very goofy, perhaps FATE-inspired thoughts about my
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 24, 2005
              Should probably retitle this thread "Too Much Information about My
              Training Regime," as it consists of some very goofy, perhaps
              FATE-inspired thoughts about my (real) tactical bouting at the moment.
              First I'll outline it and then suggest how it might aid the orginator
              of this thread.

              I'm one of those atheletes who keeps a detailed training log,
              especially when it comes to bouting. I have notes going back ten
              years on training sessions, competitions, and particular opponents.
              It isn't interesting why this is useful, just that it is.

              Usually I write down a line or two about what I want to achieve. Then
              I record my bouting scores. Rather than just fence, I time my bouts
              rather strictly then sit down and record the scores, along with notes.
              Usually this is someting like "Feint high, 8, leg; remise flank," or
              "draw counterattack, dammit." Yesterday, after watching a quicktime
              movie of a world-class fencer I like (Rota, ITA) I thought about what
              words I would assign to him, how I would trait him in FATE.

              I didn't limit myself to adjectives (something I adore about FATE
              chargen) and came up with "Mouse," "Ice," and "Silence." It isn't
              interesting why I chose these words--their native assonance was
              certainly part of it. So, later in the afternoon, instead of scoring
              touches, I fenced for three minutes solid and gave myself an M for
              every "mouse" moment, etc whether it lead to a touch or not. (It also
              gave me something unrelated to fencing to think about, an image of a
              mouse picking its way across the snow).

              Clearly I must be insane, but I went home with a lot of Ms, a few Ses,
              and not nearly enough Is. *It means something to me* and, if I were
              speaking to another fencer I would be perfectly prepared to talk about
              my tactical objectives (I won't bore the list) and their relation to
              the words I chose.

              I take this to be the heart of the FATE system and others like it:
              players choose language which means something to them and then play
              with whatever subsequent language comes along, attaching their private
              meanings onto a public game. As for a specific duelling system
              recommendations, perhaps a player could write a short description of a
              fight or training session his or her character was involved in and
              then stat his "style" accordingly. Probably not satisfying to the
              simulationist--but liberating for the narrativist?

              You cannot resist my snow mouse épée style,
              N

              --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Thijs Krijger <krijger@a...> wrote:
              > On Tue, 20 Sep 2005, swordwarden wrote:
              >
              > > --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Thijs Krijger <krijger@a...> wrote:
              > >> I prefer movie-swashbuckling as historically 25% of all duels ended
              > > in
              > >> both parties killing each other. [not something I want in my games]
              > >
              > > interesting stat, Thijs. 25% of what variety of duels? and who is the
              > > source on that? thanks. I am endlessly fascinated with dueling.
              >
              > As a scientist I should know better than to quote numbers without
              > references. A lot of my old links on this topic are dead, but I should
              > still have it on my harddisk home.
              >
              > Either way, a good read to start with is:
              > http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/bloody.shtml
              > showing why combatants killed each other and hollywood movies are
              > non-sense.
              >
              > When I was younger I did a complete research to realistic RPG combat
              [both
              > duelling and gunfight] and now I stay far away from realism, too gritty.
              > Also I dont like systems like swashbuckler and flashing blades [I
              love the
              > social tables, just not the combat], because suddenly combat becomes a
              > game of outguessing the GM [and I never want in my games to have a
              GM vs
              > Players situation], afterall you should outguess your opponent.
              > For me a combat system should be able to recreate the fencing in 'The
              > Princess Bride' ;)
              >
              > > once I put together a dueling method for Fate, I will post it.
              >
              > I'm very interested in it. I wrote a system for FUDGE once:
              > http://www.fudgefactor.org/2002/12/01/fudging_blades.html
              > Still working on a FATE adaptation for my next Musketeer FATE campaign.
              >
              > Greetings from Thijs
              >
              > Krijger@a... or http://www.astro.uu.nl/~krijger
              > The world is not enough, it's only a starting point!
            • swordwarden
              hello all, After due consideration and feedback from my players, I am thinking a more-heavily-narrativist (rather than technical) system might work best. So,
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 27, 2005
                hello all,

                After due consideration and feedback from my players, I am thinking a
                more-heavily-narrativist (rather than technical) system might work
                best.

                So, the sum total of my thoughts up to this point is as follows:
                - As appropriate, a duelist may spend skill points on dueling skills
                and dueling stunts. The former are psychological; the latter are
                physical.
                - Each point put into a psychological dueling skill raises it as
                normal, to Average, thence to Fair, and so on. Having no skill points
                in a skill, default is Mediocre, as usual.
                - Each point put into a stunt allows for one more use per game day.
                - This mix of skills and stunts has its own pyramid, and is limited
                at
                the top end by the base skill of Swordfighting (back in the main
                skill
                pyramid).

                This allows for about 1/3 of a duelist's skill points to be poured
                into
                such skills and stunts, which will be beyond the ken of the average
                soldier or whatnot.

                The skills could be chosen from this list: aplomb/cool/grit, death
                wish/recklessness, meditation, intimidate, and any other cool ideas
                the
                players have. Skills could technically be used anytime, but since
                typically they would get all their worth once at the beginning of a
                duel, the cost seems alright.

                Stunts would so vary from style to style, but can easily be ascribed
                benefits and weaknesses in the chargen phase.

                Thanks everyone for your ideas, and I almost feel bad that this ends
                up
                being so system-lite. But then again, that is something I like about
                Fate. *smile*

                All this cogitation and questioning has been for this play-by-post
                game: http://rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=12592 . It's called Blood & Honor.
                If you're interested, expect quality (thanks to my players), a mild
                yet ongoing pace (4-5 posts a week is fine) and
                room for creativity (you make up NPCs, I expand). The basic premise:
                violence and
                intrigue
                among the citizens of a blossoming empire in a fantasy world.

                Take it easy.

                Jason
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