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Re: Re: [FateRPG] May the Force be with you

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  • Pierre-Alexandre Sicart
    [Darren:] ... I like that. ... Hm, right. But when you help someone, you cannot do anything else at the same time, so to give someone else the same +1 bonus
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 3, 2004
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      [Darren:]
      > I personally see no need for players to transfer FP to other players. What
      > should happen, is the player spends a FP to aid another player's task.

      I like that.


      > It doesn't get added to the other player's pool - it is used instantly.
      > Actually, this makes the 2:1 cost make more sense. After all, the player
      > being aided might spend a FP of his own, and get a benefit from someone
      > else - for a totoal +2. Since this is higher than normally possible, a
      > higher cost makes sense.

      Hm, right. But when you help someone, you cannot do anything else at the
      same time, so to give someone else the same +1 bonus without actively
      helping should be even more expensive, 3:1


      > Remember also, when a player spends a FP (or 2), it might not have
      > anything to do with the character's actions or abilities at all. It is the
      > _player_ choosing to influence the session. He might say, if in combat,
      > the light reflects of a nearby metal mirror hanging on the wall, blinding
      > the pc's opponent just for a moment, giving the pc a +1 bonus. Or the
      > enemy slips on a loosing paving stone. Whatever.
      > That said, it could be based on the player's relationship to other
      > players. While a player is fighting, or bargaining, another player offers
      > to give a +1 bonus (costing 2FP) and saying, "at this moment, you remember
      > a little tip I showed you last time we were together - giving you a
      > momentary edge over your rival." If the player being aided is an egomaniac
      > or doesn't think you could have taught him anything, he can always
      > decline...

      I dig that.
    • Darren Hill
      On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 19:57:55 +0200, Pierre-Alexandre Sicart wrote: ... Remember, the _character_ might not be helping at all - FP
      Message 2 of 26 , Oct 3, 2004
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        On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 19:57:55 +0200, Pierre-Alexandre Sicart
        <pa_games@...> wrote:

        <snip>
        >> It doesn't get added to the other player's pool - it is used instantly.
        >> Actually, this makes the 2:1 cost make more sense. After all, the player
        >> being aided might spend a FP of his own, and get a benefit from someone
        >> else - for a totoal +2. Since this is higher than normally possible, a
        >> higher cost makes sense.
        >
        > Hm, right. But when you help someone, you cannot do anything else at the
        > same time, so to give someone else the same +1 bonus without actively
        > helping should be even more expensive, 3:1

        Remember, the _character_ might not be helping at all - FP use is free and
        takes no time. When you spend a FP to help someone else, it isn't an
        active action - it is just like using a FP to help yourself: a free
        action. The player gets some limited control over the world, but the
        character does not.
        If you are actively helping someone else, you will be using a skill or
        some other roll. When two people fight alongside each other against a
        single foe, they both get a +1 bonus and they both roll. The poor victim
        has to beat both rolls to avoid being hit. In this case, you don't need to
        spend FP to help your friend, you spend it on your own roll.
        The method you mention here is actually much less effective than what
        people get for free. If you actually had to physicaly take action to give
        another FP, robbing yourself of any action that round, then a 1:1 trade
        should be more than enough - but more likely the +1 bonus gained would be
        free as in the combat rules.


        Darren
      • Pierre-Alexandre Sicart
        [Darren:] ... That s not how I read it: You can spend two Fate points to give someone else a +1 to one of their rolls, even if they ve spent a Fate point to
        Message 3 of 26 , Oct 3, 2004
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          [Darren:]
          > Remember, the _character_ might not be helping at all - FP use is free and
          > takes no time. When you spend a FP to help someone else, it isn't an
          > active action - it is just like using a FP to help yourself: a free
          > action. The player gets some limited control over the world, but the
          > character does not.

          That's not how I read it:

          "You can spend two Fate points to give someone else a +1 to one of their
          rolls, even if they've spent a Fate point to give themselves a +1 already,
          providing that you can reasonably give them some sort of in-character
          assistance."
        • Darren Hill
          On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 22:46:49 +0200, Pierre-Alexandre Sicart ... Remember, the standard turn sequence in FATE is an exchange, which represents several rounds of
          Message 4 of 26 , Oct 3, 2004
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            On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 22:46:49 +0200, Pierre-Alexandre Sicart
            <pa_games@...> wrote:

            >
            > [Darren:]
            >> Remember, the _character_ might not be helping at all - FP use is free
            >> and
            >> takes no time. When you spend a FP to help someone else, it isn't an
            >> active action - it is just like using a FP to help yourself: a free
            >> action. The player gets some limited control over the world, but the
            >> character does not.
            >
            > That's not how I read it:
            >
            > "You can spend two Fate points to give someone else a +1 to one of their
            > rolls, even if they've spent a Fate point to give themselves a +1
            > already,
            > providing that you can reasonably give them some sort of in-character
            > assistance."

            Remember, the standard turn sequence in FATE is an exchange, which
            represents several rounds of activity in most games. So if you're each
            fighting opponents in a round, to get the above bonus, all you'd have to
            do is explain how during your fight you spent a moment shouting
            encouragement ("strike high!"), or your sword caught the light blinding
            your friend's foe for a moment or so on - all the sorts of things that
            happen during combat anyway.
            I don't believe the intention of the rule you quote is to tie the player
            up for a round.

            But also, my previous statements on this subject have moved away from that
            rule. If you can spend FP on a players action when your character isn't
            actually there (and you seem okay with this), it doesn't make sense that
            it takes your character any time to do so! So spending FP when you _are_
            there shouldn't take any more concentration! :)
            The difference is, when your character is there, you have the extra option
            of describing the bonus as something your character directly caused - but
            it's only an option. You could still describe something indirect.

            Darren
          • Pierre-Alexandre Sicart
            ... That s how I see it, but I may be wrong. Maybe Iago can shed some light on this matter? ... I like that. I do. That s just that... it is now how I read the
            Message 5 of 26 , Oct 3, 2004
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              > > [Darren:]
              > >> Remember, the _character_ might not be helping at all - FP use is free
              > >> and
              > >> takes no time. When you spend a FP to help someone else, it isn't an
              > >> active action - it is just like using a FP to help yourself: a free
              > >> action. The player gets some limited control over the world, but the
              > >> character does not.
              > >
              > > That's not how I read it:
              > >
              > > "You can spend two Fate points to give someone else a +1 to one of their
              > > rolls, even if they've spent a Fate point to give themselves a +1
              > > already,
              > > providing that you can reasonably give them some sort of in-character
              > > assistance."
              >
              > Remember, the standard turn sequence in FATE is an exchange, which
              > represents several rounds of activity in most games. So if you're each
              > fighting opponents in a round, to get the above bonus, all you'd have to
              > do is explain how during your fight you spent a moment shouting
              > encouragement ("strike high!"), or your sword caught the light blinding
              > your friend's foe for a moment or so on - all the sorts of things that
              > happen during combat anyway.
              > I don't believe the intention of the rule you quote is to tie the player
              > up for a round.

              That's how I see it, but I may be wrong. Maybe Iago can shed some light on
              this matter?


              > But also, my previous statements on this subject have moved away from that
              > rule. If you can spend FP on a players action when your character isn't
              > actually there (and you seem okay with this), it doesn't make sense that
              > it takes your character any time to do so! So spending FP when you _are_
              > there shouldn't take any more concentration! :)
              > The difference is, when your character is there, you have the extra option
              > of describing the bonus as something your character directly caused - but
              > it's only an option. You could still describe something indirect.

              I like that. I do. That's just that... it is now how I read the rules. I
              think of "assistance" as something more active. But as I said, I may be
              wrong.
            • Iago
              ... This is correct. The in-character rationale is important (IMO), but it s not a I do this instead of fight thing. -- Fred Hicks * Curse you iago and your
              Message 6 of 26 , Oct 3, 2004
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                On Sun, 03 Oct 2004, Darren Hill wrote:

                > > That's not how I read it:
                > >
                > > "You can spend two Fate points to give someone else a +1
                > > to one of their rolls, even if they've spent a Fate
                > > point to give themselves a +1 already, providing that
                > > you can reasonably give them some sort of in-character
                > > assistance."
                >
                > Remember, the standard turn sequence in FATE is an
                > exchange, which represents several rounds of activity in
                > most games. So if you're each fighting opponents in a
                > round, to get the above bonus, all you'd have to do is
                > explain how during your fight you spent a moment shouting
                > encouragement ("strike high!"), or your sword caught the
                > light blinding your friend's foe for a moment or so on -
                > all the sorts of things that happen during combat anyway.
                > I don't believe the intention of the rule you quote is to
                > tie the player up for a round.

                This is correct. The in-character rationale is important
                (IMO), but it's not a "I do this instead of fight" thing.

                --
                Fred Hicks * "Curse you iago and your fast fingers!" - Rob Donoghue
                Co-Author of Fate - Managing Editor of Fudge Factor - The 'fan' in fanatic
                Fate RPG * http://www.faterpg.com/ Fudge Factor * http://www.fudgefactor.org/
                Plink * http://www.rainlikely.com/ Jim Butcher * http://www.jim-butcher.com/
              • Pierre-Alexandre Sicart
                ... Can I use a Fate Point to change that so I stop being wrong?
                Message 7 of 26 , Oct 3, 2004
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                  > This is correct. The in-character rationale is important
                  > (IMO), but it's not a "I do this instead of fight" thing.

                  Can I use a Fate Point to change that so I stop being wrong?
                • Iago
                  ... Heh. Sure. Of course, you re also right, if it doesn t sit right with you for things to work that way. It s your game, when you run it, after all. -- Fred
                  Message 8 of 26 , Oct 3, 2004
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                    On Sun, 03 Oct 2004, Pierre-Alexandre Sicart wrote:

                    > > This is correct. The in-character rationale is
                    > > important (IMO), but it's not a "I do this instead of
                    > > fight" thing.
                    >
                    > Can I use a Fate Point to change that so I stop being
                    > wrong?

                    Heh. Sure.

                    Of course, you're also right, if it doesn't sit right with
                    you for things to work that way. It's your game, when you
                    run it, after all.

                    --
                    Fred Hicks * "Curse you iago and your fast fingers!" - Rob Donoghue
                    Co-Author of Fate - Managing Editor of Fudge Factor - The 'fan' in fanatic
                    Fate RPG * http://www.faterpg.com/ Fudge Factor * http://www.fudgefactor.org/
                    Plink * http://www.rainlikely.com/ Jim Butcher * http://www.jim-butcher.com/
                  • Darren Hill
                    On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 23:57:12 +0200, Pierre-Alexandre Sicart ... LOL Darren
                    Message 9 of 26 , Oct 3, 2004
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                      On Sun, 3 Oct 2004 23:57:12 +0200, Pierre-Alexandre Sicart
                      <pa_games@...> wrote:

                      >
                      >> This is correct. The in-character rationale is important
                      >> (IMO), but it's not a "I do this instead of fight" thing.
                      >
                      > Can I use a Fate Point to change that so I stop being wrong?

                      LOL

                      Darren
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