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Removing advantage

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  • Joe Formoso
    Let s say, in a Ghostbusters game, a proton pack has the ability to place the Confined aspect on an ectoplasmic entity. The ghost, on its turn, tries to
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 20, 2013
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      Let's say, in a Ghostbusters game, a proton pack has the ability
      to place the "Confined" aspect on an ectoplasmic entity. The ghost, on
      its turn, tries to escape (that is, remove the aspect) before the trap
      is deployed. What are reasonable ways to work this? The player has
      to make some effort in controlling the stream, so there's at least some
      Athletics or Shooting involved. I've been running it as the ghost using
      its PKE to try to overcome the "Confined" aspect, opposed by the player
      rolling Athletics with a +2 from the proton pack.
      Is that anything like a valid use of the rules as written? If
      not, what's a more sensible way to model one character trying to remove
      an aspect while being opposed by another character?

      (Extra credit: if this topic is already covered very
      specifically in Core, a page number in the latest draft would be very
      much appreciated -- I was flipping around looking, and didn't find
      anything.)

      --Joe
    • Leonard Balsera
      In the last leak, it s page 78. If you want to get rid of a situation aspect, you can do it in one of two ways: roll an overcome action specifically for the
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 20, 2013
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        In the last leak, it's page 78.

        "If you want to get rid of a situation aspect, you can do it in one of two ways: roll an overcome action specifically for the purpose of getting rid of the aspect, or roll some other kind of action that would make the aspect make no sense if you succeed. (For example, if you’re Grappled, you could try a sprint action to move away. If you succeed, it wouldn’t make sense for you to be Grappled anymore, so you’d also get rid of that aspect.)

        If a character can interfere with your action, they get to roll active opposition against you as per normal. Otherwise, GMs, it’s your job to set passive opposition or just allow the player to get rid of the aspect without a roll, if there’s nothing risky or interesting in the way.

        Finally, if at any point it simply makes no sense for a situation aspect to be in play, get rid of it."

        --
        Leonard Balsera, Fate System Developer for Evil Hat Productions
        lbalsera@...
        www.evilhat.com
        https://www.facebook.com/EvilHatProductions
      • Joe Formoso
        ... What, in the section titled Removing or changing an aspect ? Who the heck is going to look for it *there*? (facepalm) I m going to bed, first praying to
        Message 3 of 10 , Mar 20, 2013
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          On Wed, 20 Mar 2013, Leonard Balsera wrote:

          > In the last leak, it's page 78.
          ----------
          What, in the section titled "Removing or changing an aspect"?
          Who the heck is going to look for it *there*? (facepalm) I'm going to
          bed, first praying to the gods for better reading comprehension.

          Thankee kindly, good sir.


          --Joe
        • Joe Formoso
          ... You know, I was so embarassed to have missed this section that I didn t realize that I still had a question regarding this situation. As this was a week
          Message 4 of 10 , Mar 26, 2013
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            On Wed, 20 Mar 2013, Leonard Balsera wrote:

            > In the last leak, it's page 78.
            >
            > "If you want to get rid of a situation aspect, you can do it in one of two
            > ways: roll an overcome action specifically for the purpose of getting rid
            > of the aspect, or roll some other kind of action that would make the aspect
            > make no sense if you succeed. (For example, if you’re Grappled, you could
            > try a sprint action to move away. If you succeed, it wouldn’t make sense
            > for you to be Grappled anymore, so you’d also get rid of that aspect.)
            >
            > If a character can interfere with your action, they get to roll active
            > opposition against you as per normal. Otherwise, GMs, it’s your job to set
            > passive opposition or just allow the player to get rid of the aspect
            > without a roll, if there’s nothing risky or interesting in the way.
            ----------
            You know, I was so embarassed to have missed this section that I
            didn't realize that I still had a question regarding this situation.

            As this was a week ago, I sum up: in the situation I was
            thinking about in my Ghostbusters campaign, a ghost has the "Confined"
            aspect as the result of a successful Shooting roll with a proton pack.
            The ghost isn't trapped immediately, and so has a chance to try to
            escape the confinement stream. It attempts to remove the "Confined"
            aspect, rolling its PKE. The Ghostbuster is, of course, fighting it --
            there were scenes in the original movies where the Ghostbusters are
            clearly having to "hold on" to keep the proton streams steady, so I was
            thinking "Athletics" would be appropriate here. Should it be an
            Athletics roll invoking the "Confined" aspect? Or is it a little hinky
            to be invoking an aspect for a bonus to prevent someone from removing
            that aspect?
            Or is there some way that Athletics could be rolled to modify
            the default difficulty in removing the aspect? Say, unmodified (if you
            were to do something stupid like lay the proton pack on the ground), it
            would only take an Average roll to remove the "Confined" aspect; but
            Winston is holding on tight, makes a Good Athletics roll, and that
            increases the difficulty of removing the aspect by 2. The thing here is
            that there's a *baseline* for how hard the "Confined" aspect is to
            remove, so I wouldn't be applying negatives on bad Athletics rolls.
            Which sounds kinda like cheating, in a way. Also, it sounds like I'm
            making up game mechanics, which (I believe) shouldn't be done without a
            *really* compelling (sorry) reason.


            --Joe
          • Frank Eastman
            It seems like the character would just roll active opposition. You don t need, and shouldn t, bring in anything else. They ve grappled the ghost with their
            Message 5 of 10 , Mar 26, 2013
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              It seems like the character would just roll active opposition.  You don't need, and shouldn't, bring in anything else.  They've "grappled" the ghost with their Shooting and now the ghost is trying to Overcome.  If the ghost uses its PKE to "break the hold" or uses its "FLEEEEEE!!!" to move to another zone across a non-permeable border (through a wall) such that logically the hold cannot ... hold ... then they do so.  Character skill is likely whatever YOU want or, (better?) whatever the PLAYER wants ... thus the guy good at Shooting can narrate that he's just that good at holding the beam and the guy good at Athletics can say he's outmaneuvering the ghost and the guy good at something else uses that.

              As to wanting more to tag for the roll, the proton pack is always there, right?

              --fje


              On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 2:30 PM, Joe Formoso <jformoso@...> wrote:
               

              On Wed, 20 Mar 2013, Leonard Balsera wrote:

              > In the last leak, it's page 78.
              >
              > "If you want to get rid of a situation aspect, you can do it in one of two
              > ways: roll an overcome action specifically for the purpose of getting rid
              > of the aspect, or roll some other kind of action that would make the aspect
              > make no sense if you succeed. (For example, if you’re Grappled, you could
              > try a sprint action to move away. If you succeed, it wouldn’t make sense
              > for you to be Grappled anymore, so you’d also get rid of that aspect.)
              >
              > If a character can interfere with your action, they get to roll active
              > opposition against you as per normal. Otherwise, GMs, it’s your job to set
              > passive opposition or just allow the player to get rid of the aspect
              > without a roll, if there’s nothing risky or interesting in the way.
              ----------
              You know, I was so embarassed to have missed this section that I
              didn't realize that I still had a question regarding this situation.

              As this was a week ago, I sum up: in the situation I was
              thinking about in my Ghostbusters campaign, a ghost has the "Confined"
              aspect as the result of a successful Shooting roll with a proton pack.
              The ghost isn't trapped immediately, and so has a chance to try to
              escape the confinement stream. It attempts to remove the "Confined"
              aspect, rolling its PKE. The Ghostbuster is, of course, fighting it --
              there were scenes in the original movies where the Ghostbusters are
              clearly having to "hold on" to keep the proton streams steady, so I was
              thinking "Athletics" would be appropriate here. Should it be an
              Athletics roll invoking the "Confined" aspect? Or is it a little hinky
              to be invoking an aspect for a bonus to prevent someone from removing
              that aspect?
              Or is there some way that Athletics could be rolled to modify
              the default difficulty in removing the aspect? Say, unmodified (if you
              were to do something stupid like lay the proton pack on the ground), it
              would only take an Average roll to remove the "Confined" aspect; but
              Winston is holding on tight, makes a Good Athletics roll, and that
              increases the difficulty of removing the aspect by 2. The thing here is
              that there's a *baseline* for how hard the "Confined" aspect is to
              remove, so I wouldn't be applying negatives on bad Athletics rolls.
              Which sounds kinda like cheating, in a way. Also, it sounds like I'm
              making up game mechanics, which (I believe) shouldn't be done without a
              *really* compelling (sorry) reason.

              --Joe


            • Joe Formoso
              ... That s where I sorta got stuck, actually -- I think that the proton pack should have a base ability to hold onto a ghost once it s got a piece of it, so
              Message 6 of 10 , Mar 26, 2013
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                On Tue, 26 Mar 2013, Frank Eastman wrote:

                > It seems like the character would just roll active opposition. You
                > don't need, and shouldn't, bring in anything else. They've "grappled"
                > the ghost with their Shooting and now the ghost is trying to Overcome.
                ----------
                That's where I sorta got stuck, actually -- I think that the
                proton pack should have a base ability to hold onto a ghost once it's
                got a piece of it, so even a Ghostbuster with Mediocre Athletics should
                be able to hold onto a ghost for a round or two.
                The proton pack I've got already grants a bonus to Shooting for
                placing the Confined aspect; maybe it could provide a bonus to
                Athletics on the opposed roll, too. I'm just not sure how to phrase that.
                Stunts generally grant a bonus to one of the Four Actions under
                specified conditions (or allow a skill to be used in a way it usually
                can't), and I'm having trouble making that fit.


                --Joe
              • Jon Lang
                ... Why are you using Athletics to provide the Active Opposition? It s obvious that it s the Ghostbuster s skill at Shooting the darn thing that s being used
                Message 7 of 10 , Mar 26, 2013
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                  On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 3:29 PM, Joe Formoso <jformoso@...> wrote:
                   

                  On Tue, 26 Mar 2013, Frank Eastman wrote:

                  > It seems like the character would just roll active opposition. You
                  > don't need, and shouldn't, bring in anything else. They've "grappled"
                  > the ghost with their Shooting and now the ghost is trying to Overcome.
                  ----------
                  That's where I sorta got stuck, actually -- I think that the
                  proton pack should have a base ability to hold onto a ghost once it's
                  got a piece of it, so even a Ghostbuster with Mediocre Athletics should
                  be able to hold onto a ghost for a round or two.
                  The proton pack I've got already grants a bonus to Shooting for
                  placing the Confined aspect; maybe it could provide a bonus to
                  Athletics on the opposed roll, too. I'm just not sure how to phrase that.
                  Stunts generally grant a bonus to one of the Four Actions under
                  specified conditions (or allow a skill to be used in a way it usually
                  can't), and I'm having trouble making that fit.

                  Why are you using Athletics to provide the Active Opposition?  It's obvious that it's the Ghostbuster's skill at Shooting the darn thing that's being used to keep it Confined; so when it tries to Overcome the Confinement, the Ghostbuster's Shooting Skill is used to provide the active opposition.  

                  --
                  Jonathan "Dataweaver" Lang
                • Joe Formoso
                  ... It always looked to me like it wasn t so much like aiming as it was about wrangling the thing being held at the end of the stream. I think an argument can
                  Message 8 of 10 , Mar 26, 2013
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                    On Tue, 26 Mar 2013, Jon Lang wrote:

                    > Why are you using Athletics to provide the Active Opposition? It's
                    > obvious that it's the Ghostbuster's skill at Shooting the darn thing
                    > that's being used to keep it Confined; so when it tries to Overcome
                    > the Confinement, the Ghostbuster's Shooting Skill is used to provide
                    > the active opposition.
                    ----------
                    It always looked to me like it wasn't so much like aiming as it
                    was about wrangling the thing being held at the end of the stream. I
                    think an argument can be made for either one, though. My main interest
                    is how you phrase a stunt that gives a bonus at one end of an opposed
                    roll in a specific situation.
                    Well, I guess you phrase it as "+2 to Athletics/Shooting to
                    oppose ghost's attempt to remove 'Confined' aspect".


                    --Joe
                  • Jonathan Lang
                    ... Take a cue from Aspect Invokes. It has been mentioned in the past that a Stunt that grants a +2 bonus is a lot like getting to Invoke an Aspect for a +2
                    Message 9 of 10 , Mar 26, 2013
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                      On Mar 26, 2013, at 7:15 PM, Joe Formoso <jformoso@...> wrote:

                       

                      On Tue, 26 Mar 2013, Jon Lang wrote:

                      > Why are you using Athletics to provide the Active Opposition? It's
                      > obvious that it's the Ghostbuster's skill at Shooting the darn thing
                      > that's being used to keep it Confined; so when it tries to Overcome
                      > the Confinement, the Ghostbuster's Shooting Skill is used to provide
                      > the active opposition.
                      ----------
                      It always looked to me like it wasn't so much like aiming as it
                      was about wrangling the thing being held at the end of the stream. I
                      think an argument can be made for either one, though. My main interest
                      is how you phrase a stunt that gives a bonus at one end of an opposed
                      roll in a specific situation.
                      Well, I guess you phrase it as "+2 to Athletics/Shooting to
                      oppose ghost's attempt to remove 'Confined' aspect".

                      Take a cue from Aspect Invokes.  It has been mentioned in the past that a Stunt that grants a +2 bonus is a lot like getting to Invoke an Aspect for a +2 bonus to your roll without having to pay a Fate Point for it.  So instead of borrowing _that_ use of Invoking Aspects, borrow the "add a +2 to the opposition to someone else's roll" use of Invoking Aspects.  
                    • Frank Eastman
                      One thing I use, that isn t canonical, to give items some oomph is what I call +1dB . Adding a bonus die to the roll means you roll five and pick four. Nets
                      Message 10 of 10 , Mar 27, 2013
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                        One thing I use, that isn't canonical, to give items some oomph is what I call "+1dB". Adding a bonus die to the roll means you roll five and pick four. 

                        Nets out to a +1 without raising the result cap. 

                        So a useful piece of equipment makes you more successful but not necessarily better. (And isn't worth a stunt.)

                        Could have gone the route of paradigm-shifting equipment just shifts the paradigm, tho. Without the equipment you can't use those skills to interact with ghosts. With it, you can. 

                        Frank Eastman
                        ----
                        352.327.8626

                        On Mar 26, 2013, at 10:00 PM, Jonathan Lang <dataweaver@...> wrote:

                         



                        On Mar 26, 2013, at 7:15 PM, Joe Formoso <jformoso@...> wrote:

                         

                        On Tue, 26 Mar 2013, Jon Lang wrote:

                        > Why are you using Athletics to provide the Active Opposition? It's
                        > obvious that it's the Ghostbuster's skill at Shooting the darn thing
                        > that's being used to keep it Confined; so when it tries to Overcome
                        > the Confinement, the Ghostbuster's Shooting Skill is used to provide
                        > the active opposition.
                        ----------
                        It always looked to me like it wasn't so much like aiming as it
                        was about wrangling the thing being held at the end of the stream. I
                        think an argument can be made for either one, though. My main interest
                        is how you phrase a stunt that gives a bonus at one end of an opposed
                        roll in a specific situation.
                        Well, I guess you phrase it as "+2 to Athletics/Shooting to
                        oppose ghost's attempt to remove 'Confined' aspect".

                        Take a cue from Aspect Invokes.  It has been mentioned in the past that a Stunt that grants a +2 bonus is a lot like getting to Invoke an Aspect for a +2 bonus to your roll without having to pay a Fate Point for it.  So instead of borrowing _that_ use of Invoking Aspects, borrow the "add a +2 to the opposition to someone else's roll" use of Invoking Aspects.  

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