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Reducing movement

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  • Brett Ritter
    If I were to house-rule that you couldn t change zone and take an action without an Overcome check (vs the default rule that you can move 1 zone and act
    Message 1 of 26 , Feb 14, 2013
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      If I were to house-rule that you couldn't change zone and take an
      action without an Overcome check (vs the default rule that you can
      move 1 zone and act freely), does anyone see a power issue?

      I have a few pet peeves in games. Truth detection powers. Denying
      surprise (bonus is okay). Seeing in the dark. And making distance
      not matter.
      I can deal with the others by not allowing those powers, but the base
      rules say that if you're in, say, throwing range, that does nothing to
      protect you from the melee guy getting in your face and beating on
      you. I feel that reduces the tension; denies the sorts of situations
      we would do in person, makes the little positionings not matter.

      Does this fix have any complications I'm not seeing? Athletics (or
      whatever) checks still make such things possible, they just don't make
      them automatic.

      --
      Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
      swiftone@...
    • James Malaspino
      What do you intend to gain from it, and overcome roll verses what? I m not sure if I can see a power issue,but it seems kind of like a strange thing to force
      Message 2 of 26 , Feb 14, 2013
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        What do you intend to gain from it, and overcome roll verses what? I'm not sure if I can see a "power" issue,but it seems kind of like a strange thing to force

        From: Brett Ritter
        Sent: ‎2/‎15/‎2013 1:22 AM
        To: FateRPG@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [FateRPG] Reducing movement

         

        If I were to house-rule that you couldn't change zone and take an
        action without an Overcome check (vs the default rule that you can
        move 1 zone and act freely), does anyone see a power issue?

        I have a few pet peeves in games. Truth detection powers. Denying
        surprise (bonus is okay). Seeing in the dark. And making distance
        not matter.
        I can deal with the others by not allowing those powers, but the base
        rules say that if you're in, say, throwing range, that does nothing to
        protect you from the melee guy getting in your face and beating on
        you. I feel that reduces the tension; denies the sorts of situations
        we would do in person, makes the little positionings not matter.

        Does this fix have any complications I'm not seeing? Athletics (or
        whatever) checks still make such things possible, they just don't make
        them automatic.

        --
        Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
        swiftone@...

      • Fred Hicks
        Seems ripe for a movement-kills-acting stalemate -- but give it a shot. ... -- Fred Hicks Co-President, Evil Hat Productions, LLC - www.evilhat.com Freelance
        Message 3 of 26 , Feb 15, 2013
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          Seems ripe for a movement-kills-acting stalemate -- but give it a shot. 

          On Friday, February 15, 2013, Brett Ritter wrote:
          If I were to house-rule that you couldn't change zone and take an
          action without an Overcome check (vs the default rule that you can
          move 1 zone and act freely), does anyone see a power issue?

          I have a few pet peeves in games.  Truth detection powers.  Denying
          surprise (bonus is okay).  Seeing in the dark.  And making distance
          not matter.
          I can deal with the others by not allowing those powers, but the base
          rules say that if you're in, say, throwing range, that does nothing to
          protect you from the melee guy getting in your face and beating on
          you.  I feel that reduces the tension; denies the sorts of situations
          we would do in person, makes the little positionings not matter.

          Does this fix have any complications I'm not seeing?  Athletics (or
          whatever) checks still make such things possible, they just don't make
          them automatic.

          --
          Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
          swiftone@...


          ------------------------------------

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          --
          Fred Hicks
          Co-President, Evil Hat Productions, LLC - www.evilhat.com
          Freelance Layoutist * Game Publishing Blogger - www.deadlyfredly.com
          For "real time" updates: http://twitter.com/fredhicks http://gplus.to/fredhicks
        • admralducksauce
          Why can t the throwing character throw their weapon and then move a zone away from the fighter charging them? Seems to me if you stand there and miss the
          Message 4 of 26 , Feb 15, 2013
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            Why can't the throwing character throw their weapon and then move a zone away from the fighter charging them? Seems to me if you stand there and miss the berserker charging you or hit but don't kill them, they _should_ be up in your face soon enough.

            --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Brett Ritter <swiftone@...> wrote:
            >
            > If I were to house-rule that you couldn't change zone and take an
            > action without an Overcome check (vs the default rule that you can
            > move 1 zone and act freely), does anyone see a power issue?
            >
            > I have a few pet peeves in games. Truth detection powers. Denying
            > surprise (bonus is okay). Seeing in the dark. And making distance
            > not matter.
            > I can deal with the others by not allowing those powers, but the base
            > rules say that if you're in, say, throwing range, that does nothing to
            > protect you from the melee guy getting in your face and beating on
            > you. I feel that reduces the tension; denies the sorts of situations
            > we would do in person, makes the little positionings not matter.
            >
            > Does this fix have any complications I'm not seeing? Athletics (or
            > whatever) checks still make such things possible, they just don't make
            > them automatic.
            >
            > --
            > Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
            > swiftone@...
            >
          • Brett Ritter
            ... Same Overcome roll you have to make to cross more than one zone. Basically, if I m in a situation where someone has backed away or otherwise created some
            Message 5 of 26 , Feb 15, 2013
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              On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 11:45 PM, James Malaspino <afategm@...> wrote:
              > What do you intend to gain from it, and overcome roll verses what? I'm not sure if I can see a "power" issue,but it seems kind of like a strange thing to force

              Same Overcome roll you have to make to cross more than one zone.

              Basically, if I'm in a situation where someone has backed away or
              otherwise created some distance, I don't want them to have to move to
              shooting range before that distance matters.

              --
              Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
              swiftone@...
            • Brett Ritter
              ... Hmm. A point, but I m guessing the Overcome action will negate that. Otherwise we move from conflict to chase scene, which is fine with me. -- Brett
              Message 6 of 26 , Feb 15, 2013
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                On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 4:51 AM, Fred Hicks <evilhat@...> wrote:
                > Seems ripe for a movement-kills-acting stalemate -- but give it a shot.

                Hmm. A point, but I'm guessing the Overcome action will negate that.
                Otherwise we move from conflict to chase scene, which is fine with me.

                --
                Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
                swiftone@...
              • Brett Ritter
                On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 5:57 AM, admralducksauce ... Because it s the other guy s action. Basically, I love zones, but so far they rarely matter because
                Message 7 of 26 , Feb 15, 2013
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                  On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 5:57 AM, admralducksauce
                  <admiralducksauce@...> wrote:
                  > Why can't the throwing character throw their weapon and then move a zone away from the fighter charging them?

                  Because it's the other guy's action.

                  Basically, I love zones, but so far they rarely matter because players
                  can dash all over doing stuff. In counterpoint, PCs feel like they
                  should get a chance to respond when NPCs cross this distance before
                  the NPC acts.

                  --
                  Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
                  swiftone@...
                • Fred Hicks
                  Your turn. You move to me; that s movement, so you can t attack. My turn. I move away from you; that s movement, so I can t do anything either. Your turn. You
                  Message 8 of 26 , Feb 15, 2013
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                    Your turn. You move to me; that's movement, so you can't attack.

                    My turn. I move away from you; that's movement, so I can't do anything either.

                    Your turn. You move to me.

                    My turn. I move from you.

                    Yeah -- the overcome roll will come into play there and one could argue that the movement *away* from the guy who's closed with you is something that the aggressor could actively oppose. But without terrain coming into play, assuming a reasonably strong chance of successful movement, it's close to the creation of a perfect defense against melee.

                    Allowing attacks to land is what makes fights wrap up quicker. 

                    But like I said: try it! Maybe in practice the concern, she is no so much there.

                    Fred

                    On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 10:32 AM, Brett Ritter <swiftone@...> wrote:
                    On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 4:51 AM, Fred Hicks <evilhat@...> wrote:
                    > Seems ripe for a movement-kills-acting stalemate -- but give it a shot.

                    Hmm.  A point, but I'm guessing the Overcome action will negate that.
                    Otherwise we move from conflict to chase scene, which is fine with me.

                    --
                    Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
                    swiftone@...


                    ------------------------------------

                    | Fate * http://www.faterpg.com/
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                    --
                    Fred Hicks
                    Co-President, Evil Hat Productions, LLC - www.evilhat.com
                    Freelance Layoutist * Game Publishing Blogger - www.deadlyfredly.com
                    For "real time" updates: http://twitter.com/fredhicks http://gplus.to/fredhicks
                  • Hollis McCray
                    ... So move in a way that the distance does matter. Don t just move a zone away, put an obstacle in their way! Running away from the guy with the sword? Topple
                    Message 9 of 26 , Feb 15, 2013
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                      On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 8:30 AM, Brett Ritter <swiftone@...> wrote:
                       

                      On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 11:45 PM, James Malaspino afategm@...> wrote:
                      > What do you intend to gain from it, and overcome roll verses what? I'm not sure if I can see a "power" issue,but it seems kind of like a strange thing to force

                      Same Overcome roll you have to make to cross more than one zone.

                      Basically, if I'm in a situation where someone has backed away or
                      otherwise created some distance, I don't want them to have to move to
                      shooting range before that distance matters.

                      So move in a way that the distance does matter. Don't just move a zone away, put an obstacle in their way! Running away from the guy with the sword? Topple a bookshelf in his way! Climbing a ladder to get away? Cut the ladder, or get something ready to drop down on whoever climbs up! Running around the corner? Set an ambush!

                      Backing up to back up is boring. Backing up to create an advantage for next round is more fun.
                      --
                      Hollis McCray
                      aka The Fifth Wanderer

                      ascensionschild@...

                      "GMing is like herding cats. Wet, angry cats who are pumped full of LSD and methamphetamines." - Stolen from some forum sig somewhere
                    • Brett Ritter
                      On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 7:39 AM, Hollis McCray ... I thought of that, but the fact is that I don t want that kind of churn, where everyone that would normally
                      Message 10 of 26 , Feb 15, 2013
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                        On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 7:39 AM, Hollis McCray
                        <ascensionschild@...> wrote:
                        > So move in a way that the distance does matter. Don't just move a zone away, put an obstacle in their way!
                        > Running away from the guy with the sword? Topple a bookshelf in his way! Climbing a ladder to get away? Cut the ladder, or get something ready to drop down on whoever climbs up! Running around the corner? Set an ambush!
                        >
                        > Backing up to back up is boring. Backing up to create an advantage for next round is more fun.

                        I thought of that, but the fact is that I don't want that kind of
                        churn, where everyone that would normally rely on distance instead
                        creates advantages. Distance should already matter. Distance PLUS an
                        obstacle matters more. Since the Overcome action isn't too hard, you
                        want to make it hard.

                        Trapped in a bank robbery? They have guns you have a stapler, and the
                        fact that the bank isn't huge doesn't help much. Crossing the open
                        floor and taking down the leader before he reacts is NOT a given.

                        I suppose is just that I like to use distance as a point of dramatic
                        tension, and since zones already cover movement (You're in a brawl -
                        you can move around within the zone to hit everyone, no penalty or
                        risk) I want to be able to use that tension without special effort.
                        Like I said, I feel the same way about darkness/shadows/vision
                        penalties and just about every non-mundane game system out there tries
                        to thwart me on that. (I'll be thrilled if I never again hear in my
                        life "But I can see in the dark", particularly mid-flavor declaration)

                        --
                        Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
                        swiftone@...
                      • Jeramy Ware
                        We re still using the Dresden rules for most stuff, as the simplification/unification of Core didn t really work for us either. Not that there s anything wrong
                        Message 11 of 26 , Feb 15, 2013
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                          We're still using the Dresden rules for most stuff, as the simplification/unification of Core didn't really work for us either. Not that there's anything wrong with it, it's just a quirk of our group. we like a little crunch with our narration.

                          That said, I've always felt the zone borders combined with Supplemental actions does a good job of addressing both of these issues. It'ts still possible to move and attack, but it costs you something, so range still matters.
                           
                          "Fairy tales do not tell children that dragons exist.
                          Children already know that dragons exist.
                          Fairy tales tell children that dragons can be killed."
                          -G. K. Chesterton

                          From: Brett Ritter <swiftone@...>
                          To: FateRPG@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Friday, February 15, 2013 9:57 AM
                          Subject: Re: [FateRPG] Reducing movement

                           
                          On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 7:39 AM, Hollis McCray
                          ascensionschild@...> wrote:
                          > So move in a way that the distance does matter. Don't just move a zone away, put an obstacle in their way!
                          > Running away from the guy with the sword? Topple a bookshelf in his way! Climbing a ladder to get away? Cut the ladder, or get something ready to drop down on whoever climbs up! Running around the corner? Set an ambush!
                          >
                          > Backing up to back up is boring. Backing up to create an advantage for next round is more fun.

                          I thought of that, but the fact is that I don't want that kind of
                          churn, where everyone that would normally rely on distance instead
                          creates advantages. Distance should already matter. Distance PLUS an
                          obstacle matters more. Since the Overcome action isn't too hard, you
                          want to make it hard.

                          Trapped in a bank robbery? They have guns you have a stapler, and the
                          fact that the bank isn't huge doesn't help much. Crossing the open
                          floor and taking down the leader before he reacts is NOT a given.

                          I suppose is just that I like to use distance as a point of dramatic
                          tension, and since zones already cover movement (You're in a brawl -
                          you can move around within the zone to hit everyone, no penalty or
                          risk) I want to be able to use that tension without special effort.
                          Like I said, I feel the same way about darkness/shadows/vision
                          penalties and just about every non-mundane game system out there tries
                          to thwart me on that. (I'll be thrilled if I never again hear in my
                          life "But I can see in the dark", particularly mid-flavor declaration)

                          --
                          Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
                          swiftone@...


                        • Kurt Rauscher
                          You could take a page from the Warhammer 3rd edition and make engaging with a target a move as well, or consider it to be a zone transition. You wouldn t
                          Message 12 of 26 , Feb 15, 2013
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                            You could take a page from the Warhammer 3rd edition and make "engaging" with a target a move as well, or consider it to be a "zone" transition.  You wouldn't need to require overcome rolls for moving from zone to zone in that case.   For examples:

                            current:
                            Thrower is 1 zone away from Sword-guy.   On his turn, Sword guy moves into zone and attacks Thrower with Fighting.

                            proposed:
                            Thower is 1 zone away from Sword-guy.  On his turn, Sword guy moves into zone then moves to engage Thrower (requiring a roll to overcome just as if Sword-guy had tried to move two zones).  On his next turn, Sword guy attacks Thrower with Fighting.

                            or maybe:
                            On his turn, Sword guy moves into zone and roars frighteningly at Thrower (Intimidate, CAA of "cowed" or perhaps making an attack against mental stress track?).  On his next turn, Sword guy moves to engage Thrower and attacks Thrower with Fighting.

                            --
                            Kurt Rauscher -:- krauscher@...

                            In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.
                              - Thomas Jefferson



                            On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 10:57 AM, Brett Ritter <swiftone@...> wrote:
                            On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 7:39 AM, Hollis McCray
                            <ascensionschild@...> wrote:
                            > So move in a way that the distance does matter. Don't just move a zone away, put an obstacle in their way!
                            > Running away from the guy with the sword? Topple a bookshelf in his way! Climbing a ladder to get away? Cut the ladder, or get something ready to drop down on whoever climbs up! Running around the corner? Set an ambush!
                            >
                            > Backing up to back up is boring. Backing up to create an advantage for next round is more fun.

                            I thought of that, but the fact is that I don't want that kind of
                            churn, where everyone that would normally rely on distance instead
                            creates advantages.  Distance should already matter.  Distance PLUS an
                            obstacle matters more.  Since the Overcome action isn't too hard, you
                            want to make it hard.

                            Trapped in a bank robbery?  They have guns you have a stapler, and the
                            fact that the bank isn't huge doesn't help much.   Crossing the open
                            floor and taking down the leader before he reacts is NOT a given.

                            I suppose is just that I like to use distance as a point of dramatic
                            tension, and since zones already cover movement (You're in a brawl -
                            you can move around within the zone to hit everyone, no penalty or
                            risk) I want to be able to use that tension without special effort.
                            Like I said, I feel the same way about darkness/shadows/vision
                            penalties and just about every non-mundane game system out there tries
                            to thwart me on that.  (I'll be thrilled if I never again hear in my
                            life "But I can see in the dark", particularly mid-flavor declaration)

                            --
                            Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
                            swiftone@...


                            ------------------------------------

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                          • Fred Hicks
                            Y know, riffing on that, one might suggest that the middle path here is you can t move *and attack* in the same exchange , but leave the other action options
                            Message 13 of 26 , Feb 15, 2013
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                              Y'know, riffing on that, one might suggest that the middle path here is "you can't move and attack in the same exchange", but leave the other action options open. So the thing your melee aggressor would do is move and create advantage to establish an aspect talking about how he's "engaged" his target; that advantage would thereby create justification for him to prevent that person from moving out of the zone afterwards.

                              Fred

                              On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 11:21 AM, Kurt Rauscher <krauscher@...> wrote:


                              You could take a page from the Warhammer 3rd edition and make "engaging" with a target a move as well, or consider it to be a "zone" transition.  You wouldn't need to require overcome rolls for moving from zone to zone in that case.   For examples:

                              current:
                              Thrower is 1 zone away from Sword-guy.   On his turn, Sword guy moves into zone and attacks Thrower with Fighting.

                              proposed:
                              Thower is 1 zone away from Sword-guy.  On his turn, Sword guy moves into zone then moves to engage Thrower (requiring a roll to overcome just as if Sword-guy had tried to move two zones).  On his next turn, Sword guy attacks Thrower with Fighting.

                              or maybe:
                              On his turn, Sword guy moves into zone and roars frighteningly at Thrower (Intimidate, CAA of "cowed" or perhaps making an attack against mental stress track?).  On his next turn, Sword guy moves to engage Thrower and attacks Thrower with Fighting.

                              --
                              Kurt Rauscher -:- krauscher@...

                              In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.
                                - Thomas Jefferson



                              On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 10:57 AM, Brett Ritter <swiftone@...> wrote:
                              On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 7:39 AM, Hollis McCray
                              <ascensionschild@...> wrote:
                              > So move in a way that the distance does matter. Don't just move a zone away, put an obstacle in their way!
                              > Running away from the guy with the sword? Topple a bookshelf in his way! Climbing a ladder to get away? Cut the ladder, or get something ready to drop down on whoever climbs up! Running around the corner? Set an ambush!
                              >
                              > Backing up to back up is boring. Backing up to create an advantage for next round is more fun.

                              I thought of that, but the fact is that I don't want that kind of
                              churn, where everyone that would normally rely on distance instead
                              creates advantages.  Distance should already matter.  Distance PLUS an
                              obstacle matters more.  Since the Overcome action isn't too hard, you
                              want to make it hard.

                              Trapped in a bank robbery?  They have guns you have a stapler, and the
                              fact that the bank isn't huge doesn't help much.   Crossing the open
                              floor and taking down the leader before he reacts is NOT a given.

                              I suppose is just that I like to use distance as a point of dramatic
                              tension, and since zones already cover movement (You're in a brawl -
                              you can move around within the zone to hit everyone, no penalty or
                              risk) I want to be able to use that tension without special effort.
                              Like I said, I feel the same way about darkness/shadows/vision
                              penalties and just about every non-mundane game system out there tries
                              to thwart me on that.  (I'll be thrilled if I never again hear in my
                              life "But I can see in the dark", particularly mid-flavor declaration)

                              --
                              Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
                              swiftone@...


                              ------------------------------------

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                              --
                              Fred Hicks
                              Co-President, Evil Hat Productions, LLC - www.evilhat.com
                              Freelance Layoutist * Game Publishing Blogger - www.deadlyfredly.com
                              For "real time" updates: http://twitter.com/fredhicks http://gplus.to/fredhicks
                            • gremlin1384
                              I ve addressed this problem going the other direction. I like characters having plenty of mobility, but also having zones matter--so I shrink the zones and put
                              Message 14 of 26 , Feb 15, 2013
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                                I've addressed this problem going the other direction. I like characters having plenty of mobility, but also having zones matter--so I shrink the zones and put in more. More akin to Diaspora's assumptions (a zone is about the room you can swing a broadsword) than Fate Core's much larger zones. So my maps will generally have six or eight zones, or more in a particularly large environment. To keep things simple, when there aren't aspects complicating things, I have characters spending their whole turn moving just move their Athletics score without rolling (plus the one free zone already built in). Combined with applying scene aspects to particular zones (cover and such), this allows for more vibrant movement. Then again, it makes things a bit more complex, pretty much requiring at least a scrawled out map, rather than the "mark it on a notecard" assumptions of Fate Core, but it works for me.

                                I'm also fiddling with a variant on the supplementary action system from Fate 3, where a character can make a full Athletics movement and also a main action. They suffer a -1 penalty to their main action, and can only move their Athletics -1 (or, basically, they can move their Athletics *without* adding in the free zone of movement).

                                --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Brett Ritter <swiftone@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 5:57 AM, admralducksauce
                                > <admiralducksauce@...> wrote:
                                > > Why can't the throwing character throw their weapon and then move a zone away from the fighter charging them?
                                >
                                > Because it's the other guy's action.
                                >
                                > Basically, I love zones, but so far they rarely matter because players
                                > can dash all over doing stuff. In counterpoint, PCs feel like they
                                > should get a chance to respond when NPCs cross this distance before
                                > the NPC acts.
                                >
                                > --
                                > Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
                                > swiftone@...
                                >
                              • Christopher Bartlett
                                Hmmm, seems to me the bank example comes with a readymade aspect, covered which if I m not mistaken could be invoked to impose a fair athletics obstacle in an
                                Message 15 of 26 , Feb 15, 2013
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                                  Hmmm, seems to me the bank example comes with a readymade aspect, covered which if I’m not mistaken could be invoked to impose a fair athletics obstacle in an opposed roll against the shooter’s notice or shooting.  If the shooter wins, his held intent of shooting anyone that makes a move would win and I’d assign the shifts as damage.  Isn’t that simple and consistent with the Fate Core way of doing things?

                                   

                                  By the way, that’s a real question, I’m running my first FC game next Saturday evening and am dancing with excitement.

                                   

                                                  Chris Bartlett

                                • Brett Ritter
                                  On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Christopher Bartlett ... The question is: is distance, of and by itself, an obstacle? I use it as one. One that can be
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Feb 15, 2013
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                                    On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Christopher Bartlett
                                    <themusicalbrewer@...> wrote:
                                    > Isn’t that simple and consistent with the Fate Core way of doing things?

                                    The question is: is distance, of and by itself, an obstacle?

                                    I use it as one. One that can be complicated by other things, yes,
                                    but by itself an issue. Think of how many shows and movies and books
                                    having simply crossing a distance as a problem during a conflict - not
                                    because that distance has something special about it, but because it's
                                    distance and you're busy.

                                    I don't want to make every movement also involve generating aspects
                                    just in case they become significant when the distance alone already
                                    is.

                                    Others don't worry about distance to this degree, and that's fine.
                                    Note I didn't suggest this as a revision to Core (as opposed to my
                                    mentions of "Scene" Aspects, or the thought of half-price Stunts). I
                                    don't think Core is wrong here, just not what I'm going for.

                                    Regarding other suggestions:
                                    * I don't want to shrink zones out of pure selfish desire for reduced
                                    paperwork, though that would indeed do what I'm looking for.
                                    * Supplemental actions: maybe, but perhaps not significant enough and
                                    I feel funny introducing modifiers for this alone.
                                    * Saying you can't auto move & attack but CAN move & non-attack
                                    action. I was disinclined at first, but on reflection this might be a
                                    good way to avoid "boring" moves and encourage interaction, so I'll
                                    ponder it more.

                                    > By the way, that’s a real question, I’m running my first FC game next Saturday evening and am dancing with excitement.

                                    Good luck! Make sure to note everyone's aspects and try to put in a
                                    compel - compelling is way harder to remember than the text makes it
                                    seem :)

                                    --
                                    Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
                                    swiftone@...
                                  • Fred Hicks
                                    Technically anything you want to do is an obstacle (hence the ability to invoke to turn something that s not an obstacle into one rated at Fair). It s just
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Feb 15, 2013
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                                      Technically anything you want to do is an obstacle (hence the ability to invoke to turn something that's "not an obstacle" into one rated at Fair). It's just typically rated so low as to make rolling not worth doing.

                                      On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 6:25 PM, Brett Ritter <swiftone@...> wrote:
                                      On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 3:11 PM, Christopher Bartlett
                                      <themusicalbrewer@...> wrote:
                                      > Isn’t that simple and consistent with the Fate Core way of doing things?

                                      The question is: is distance, of and by itself, an obstacle?

                                      --
                                      Fred Hicks
                                      Co-President, Evil Hat Productions, LLC - www.evilhat.com
                                      Freelance Layoutist * Game Publishing Blogger - www.deadlyfredly.com
                                      For "real time" updates: http://twitter.com/fredhicks http://gplus.to/fredhicks
                                    • Brett Ritter
                                      ... True. I guess it would be more Fate-like to say: Is distance, of and by itself, an INTERESTING obstacle if you re doing something else as well For me,
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Feb 15, 2013
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                                        On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 3:37 PM, Fred Hicks <evilhat@...> wrote:
                                        > Technically anything you want to do is an obstacle

                                        True. I guess it would be more Fate-like to say:

                                        "Is distance, of and by itself, an INTERESTING obstacle if you're
                                        doing something else as well"

                                        For me, it is, though I can see others disagreeing.

                                        --
                                        Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
                                        swiftone@...
                                      • sk1mble
                                        ... This is why the fiction comes first. In your bank scenario, the group could agree that just charging at the armed robber is potentially suicide, so they
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Feb 15, 2013
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                                          --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Brett Ritter <swiftone@...> wrote:

                                          > Trapped in a bank robbery? They have guns you have a stapler, and the
                                          > fact that the bank isn't huge doesn't help much. Crossing the open
                                          > floor and taking down the leader before he reacts is NOT a given.

                                          This is why the fiction comes first. In your bank scenario, the group could agree that just charging at the armed robber is potentially suicide, so they allow the robber to actively oppose the character's actual action (given that movement is free) with his Shooting. If beats the have-a-go hero then he not only defends himself but the hero takes the robber's shifts (+ weapon value) as damage 'cause he got shot as he rushed him.

                                          Alternatively you could argue that the Aspect of "Under the Gun" applies to the scene and makes free movement difficult, therefore in order to move the hero has to succeed on an Athletics roll. The gunmen provide active opposition with their Intimidation.
                                        • U.N.Owen
                                          That s more or less the solution I was working on posting.
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Feb 15, 2013
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                                            That's more or less the solution I was working on posting.

                                            On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 6:59 PM, sk1mble <rbellingham@...> wrote:
                                             

                                            --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Brett Ritter wrote:

                                            > Trapped in a bank robbery? They have guns you have a stapler, and the
                                            > fact that the bank isn't huge doesn't help much. Crossing the open
                                            > floor and taking down the leader before he reacts is NOT a given.

                                            This is why the fiction comes first. In your bank scenario, the group could agree that just charging at the armed robber is potentially suicide, so they allow the robber to actively oppose the character's actual action (given that movement is free) with his Shooting. If beats the have-a-go hero then he not only defends himself but the hero takes the robber's shifts (+ weapon value) as damage 'cause he got shot as he rushed him.

                                            Alternatively you could argue that the Aspect of "Under the Gun" applies to the scene and makes free movement difficult, therefore in order to move the hero has to succeed on an Athletics roll. The gunmen provide active opposition with their Intimidation.


                                          • Brett Ritter
                                            ... Sure, but do I want to have this discussion on almost all movement, or do I want the default to work and save the exceptions (both dangerous and boring) to
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Feb 15, 2013
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                                              On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 4:59 PM, sk1mble <rbellingham@...> wrote:
                                              > This is why the fiction comes first. In your bank scenario, the group could agree that just charging at the armed robber is potentially suicide,

                                              Sure, but do I want to have this discussion on almost all movement, or
                                              do I want the default to work and save the exceptions (both dangerous
                                              and boring) to be when I modify things?

                                              I'm not talking about a single scenario, but almost every scene that
                                              has zones. If they were interesting enough to make a zone, it's
                                              generally interesting enough to make moving around them significant.

                                              --
                                              Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
                                              swiftone@...
                                            • Daniel Ross
                                              ... I think that s an important insight, and that s why I agree that movement between zones shouldn t be trivial. If it isn t dramatically meaningful to move
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Feb 15, 2013
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                                                On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 6:28 PM, Brett Ritter <swiftone@...> wrote:

                                                I'm not talking about a single scenario, but almost every scene that
                                                has zones. If they were interesting enough to make a zone, it's
                                                generally interesting enough to make moving around them significant.

                                                I think that's an important insight, and that's why I agree that movement between zones shouldn't be trivial. If it isn't dramatically meaningful to move between two adjacent zones... Make them one zone.
                                              • John Rudd
                                                ... That sounds like it makes something close to a 5 grid... (not exactly 5 , depends a lot on each person s reach, but it s not far from that number).
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Feb 15, 2013
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                                                  On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 12:52 PM, gremlin1384 <gremlin1384@...> wrote:
                                                   

                                                  I've addressed this problem going the other direction. ... (a zone is about the room you can swing a broadsword)


                                                  That sounds like it makes something close to a 5' grid... (not exactly 5', depends a lot on each person's reach, but it's not far from that number).



                                                   
                                                • John Rudd
                                                  ... I kinda like that idea. Moving into a room isn t a big deal, but to ALSO engage someone in melee is a more specific movement. If you add to that that
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Feb 15, 2013
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                                                    On Fri, Feb 15, 2013 at 8:21 AM, Kurt Rauscher <krauscher@...> wrote:
                                                     
                                                    You could take a page from the Warhammer 3rd edition and make "engaging" with a target a move as well, or consider it to be a "zone" transition.  You wouldn't need to require overcome rolls for moving from zone to zone in that case.

                                                    I kinda like that idea.  Moving into a room isn't a big deal, but to ALSO engage someone in melee is a more specific movement.

                                                    If you add to that that "being engaged in melee" is a created advantage, then it also makes it harder to get OUT of melee.  There's a few tactical games that try to model that in various ways, as well.

                                                     
                                                  • Christopher Bartlett
                                                    Let me see if I m getting the Fate aesthetic correct. Crossing the distance is trivial. Crossing the distance, wondering if you re going to get there before
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Feb 16, 2013
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                                                      Let me see if I’m getting the Fate aesthetic correct.  Crossing the distance is trivial.  Crossing the distance, wondering if you’re going to get there before the gunman notices you and fires, that provides tension and would be perfect for an opposed role.  Remember, you can move freely between combat, contest and simple opposed roll.  If the gunman invokes his aspect, “covering the hostages” for a +2 on his roll, the tension ratchets up.  If you have put in extra shifts for gun damage, this becomes quite a potentially nightmarish scenario.

                                                       

                                                      I know you’re saying the bank example is just that, but one can draw the parallel here.  Crossing distance isn’t interesting unless there’s a time constraint.  You have to get to the child before the dog bites her.  You have to get to the detonator in order to disarm it and you have three exchanges total in which to do it.  You have to race to cover before the grenade goes off.  All these would be situations where distance vs. time is interesting and worth a roll.  It’s that tension that makes the difference, not the distance in and of itself.

                                                       

                                                                      Chris Bartlett

                                                       

                                                    • Brett Ritter
                                                      On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 6:17 AM, Christopher Bartlett ... True, but I see that as a semantic issue, because when distance matters for timing/tension reasons, I
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Feb 16, 2013
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                                                        On Sat, Feb 16, 2013 at 6:17 AM, Christopher Bartlett
                                                        <themusicalbrewer@...> wrote:
                                                        > I know you’re saying the bank example is just that, but one can draw the parallel here. Crossing distance isn’t interesting unless there’s a time constraint.
                                                        ...
                                                        > All these would be situations where distance vs. time is interesting and worth a roll. It’s that tension that makes the difference, not the distance in and of itself.

                                                        True, but I see that as a semantic issue, because when distance
                                                        matters for timing/tension reasons, I create zones. Other times there
                                                        are no zones, we're just interacting.

                                                        --
                                                        Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
                                                        swiftone@...
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