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Re: Half-Price stunts

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  • dsevermore
    ... Er... well don t most people buy stunts because they feel they ll use them frequently? I do. My players do. And that s why stunts are worth buying. Some
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 6, 2013
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      --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Brett Ritter wrote:
      >
      > On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 12:00 PM, GalacticCmdr wrote:
      > > 1) +1 for something that happens commonly in a given situation
      > > 2) +2 for something that happens occasionally
      >
      > So your "occasional" stunt has to happen twice/session to be of
      > benefit. (with only 1/session you break even in cost and have
      > sacrificed flexibility) Certainly true for some stunts...not so true
      > for other stunts (and usually the more diverse/interesting ones)

      Er... well don't most people buy stunts because they feel they'll use them frequently? I do. My players do. And that's why stunts are worth buying. Some stunts also offer non-math benefits they might not have been able to gain otherwise.

      If they felt like the stunt wasn't worth it, my folks are savvy enough to just modify an aspect to get the benefit they want. Or come to me with a new stunt they like better. *Or create an advantage they want on the fly and invoke that instead.* Cuz man, being able to do that is so cool...

      D Evermore
    • GalacticCmdr
      Just because something is interesting does not mean that it will occur only rarely. When a player selects a stunt, their keystone skills, and aspects - they
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 7, 2013
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        Just because something is interesting does not mean that it will occur only rarely. When a player selects a stunt, their keystone skills, and aspects - they are signaling to the GM what they feel is important. That is what is interesting. If a player puts down a stunt and the GM ignores it so that it is only coming into play averaging less than 1/session, you have a GM problem, not a stunt problem.

        Sure, maybe that skulking stunt for burglary did not come into play this session because everyone spent their time having their characters socialize or outright head bashing. But maybe it will come into play several times next session when they break into the BBG's time-share lair.

        Of course, you could turn that around and say a GM that ignores a players character sheet is signaling to them that their character is just not a match for the type of game they wish to run. Of course, by then it is more of a communication issue than anything else.

        According to the Dec4 drop, minor milestones occur at the end of a session of play - or when a piece of story has been resolved (which means it might happen in the middle of the session). During that time you can swap out stunts (assuming that is what you picked). So stunts can flow in and out of your character as needed.




        Chip




        On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 9:06 PM, Brett Ritter <swiftone@...> wrote:
         

        On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 12:00 PM, GalacticCmdr galacticcmdr@...> wrote:
        > 1) +1 for something that happens commonly in a given situation
        > 2) +2 for something that happens occasionally

        So your "occasional" stunt has to happen twice/session to be of
        benefit. (with only 1/session you break even in cost and have
        sacrificed flexibility) Certainly true for some stunts...not so true
        for other stunts (and usually the more diverse/interesting ones)


        --
        Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
        swiftone@...




        --
        “Irreverence is the champion of liberty and its only sure defense. True irreverence is disrespect for another man’s god.” – Mark Twain

      • GalacticCmdr
        I seem to recall it mentioned either on this list or a posting somewhere that fate points should be given out at a average rate of (players/2) per scene. I use
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 7, 2013
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          I seem to recall it mentioned either on this list or a posting somewhere that fate points should be given out at a average rate of (players/2) per scene. I use True Dungeon chips for my Fate Points. They give a good heft and sound good clunking in the hand when debating a compel. In order to remind myself to compel I stack 3 chips in front of me for each scene. I have 4 players, but I always find it better to be generous with FP than stingy. Plus if I short it one I am still on track. Also, if the stack is empty and I am adding more - it is time for a BBG scene.



          Chip


          On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 3:49 PM, Brett Ritter <swiftone@...> wrote:
           

          On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 12:00 PM, GalacticCmdr galacticcmdr@...> wrote:
          > generally only get in 4 hours at a time. Given the short time I call for a refresh ever other game (figuring that 6-8 hours is a session). During any scene I try to push out 2-3 Fate Points to the players.

          In my 4-5 hour sessions each player gets 1-2 points so far. If they
          have less than 2 refresh each before that, they tend to be unhappy
          with their FP balance and sit on it, meaning that Stunts aren't that
          attractive in a base 3 refresh game.

          Perhaps I just need to compel more, but generally my players have a
          knack for self-compelling to their benefit(!) which makes it hard to
          judge.


          --
          Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
          swiftone@...




          --
          “Irreverence is the champion of liberty and its only sure defense. True irreverence is disrespect for another man’s god.” – Mark Twain

        • Jeff
          I agree with this for the most part; however, the difficulty (or rarity) stems in my experience from players choosing a broad variety of skills for their
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 7, 2013
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            I agree with this for the most part; however, the difficulty (or rarity) stems in my experience from players choosing a broad variety of skills for their characters. The GM just can't tap everyone all the time, so he's forced to compromise. This means some stunts will end up used less frequently than others.

            To continue your example, that social session was great for "Templeton Faceman Peck", and breaking into the time-share lair was perfect for "John 'Hannibal" Smith", but when do Murdock and B.A. get their chance to shine?



            On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 9:17 AM, GalacticCmdr <galacticcmdr@...> wrote:
             

            Just because something is interesting does not mean that it will occur only rarely. When a player selects a stunt, their keystone skills, and aspects - they are signaling to the GM what they feel is important. That is what is interesting. If a player puts down a stunt and the GM ignores it so that it is only coming into play averaging less than 1/session, you have a GM problem, not a stunt problem.

            Sure, maybe that skulking stunt for burglary did not come into play this session because everyone spent their time having their characters socialize or outright head bashing. But maybe it will come into play several times next session when they break into the BBG's time-share lair.

            Of course, you could turn that around and say a GM that ignores a players character sheet is signaling to them that their character is just not a match for the type of game they wish to run. Of course, by then it is more of a communication issue than anything else.

            According to the Dec4 drop, minor milestones occur at the end of a session of play - or when a piece of story has been resolved (which means it might happen in the middle of the session). During that time you can swap out stunts (assuming that is what you picked). So stunts can flow in and out of your character as needed.




            Chip

          • Michael Thompson
            Its been my experience that players tend to grab stunts that pile onto their peak skills so that when they re in the Zone and doing what the character is all
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 7, 2013
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              Its been my experience that players tend to grab stunts that pile onto their peak skills so that when they're 'in the Zone' and doing what the character is all about doing, they really shine.  And since these are the peak skills, I try to put those scenes in my games so that they get a chance to shine.  As such, I've never felt stunts were under powered, even in DFRPG.  Stunts have always felt more like a defining characteristic of the character and a signal that the player wants to see / do more of something.  I also try to warn players not to hang too many stunts on low skills because it feels like they're watering down their concept.  If something is very central to the character concept, but is rarely going to come into play, I'd recommend they stick with tagging their High Concept instead of making it a stunt.

              As for refresh, it seems my players always spend it down to 1-2 and fish for compels.  But FPs flow pretty fast and loose at our table.

              Michael


              On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 9:17 AM, GalacticCmdr <galacticcmdr@...> wrote:
               

              Just because something is interesting does not mean that it will occur only rarely. When a player selects a stunt, their keystone skills, and aspects - they are signaling to the GM what they feel is important. That is what is interesting. If a player puts down a stunt and the GM ignores it so that it is only coming into play averaging less than 1/session, you have a GM problem, not a stunt problem.

              Sure, maybe that skulking stunt for burglary did not come into play this session because everyone spent their time having their characters socialize or outright head bashing. But maybe it will come into play several times next session when they break into the BBG's time-share lair.

              Of course, you could turn that around and say a GM that ignores a players character sheet is signaling to them that their character is just not a match for the type of game they wish to run. Of course, by then it is more of a communication issue than anything else.

              According to the Dec4 drop, minor milestones occur at the end of a session of play - or when a piece of story has been resolved (which means it might happen in the middle of the session). During that time you can swap out stunts (assuming that is what you picked). So stunts can flow in and out of your character as needed.




              Chip




              On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 9:06 PM, Brett Ritter <swiftone@...> wrote:
               

              On Wed, Feb 6, 2013 at 12:00 PM, GalacticCmdr galacticcmdr@...> wrote:
              > 1) +1 for something that happens commonly in a given situation
              > 2) +2 for something that happens occasionally

              So your "occasional" stunt has to happen twice/session to be of
              benefit. (with only 1/session you break even in cost and have
              sacrificed flexibility) Certainly true for some stunts...not so true
              for other stunts (and usually the more diverse/interesting ones)


              --
              Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
              swiftone@...




              --
              “Irreverence is the champion of liberty and its only sure defense. True irreverence is disrespect for another man’s god.” – Mark Twain


            • Brett Ritter
              ... A fair criticism, though I ll admit I have troubles making sure I pay attention to everyone s aspects, I ve not really worried about stunts. Also, they
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 7, 2013
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                On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 6:17 AM, GalacticCmdr <galacticcmdr@...> wrote:
                > Just because something is interesting does not mean that it will occur only rarely. When a player selects a stunt, their keystone skills, and aspects - they are signaling to the GM what they feel is important. That is what is interesting. If a
                > player puts down a stunt and the GM ignores it so that it is only coming into play averaging less than 1/session, you have a GM problem, not a stunt problem.

                A fair criticism, though I'll admit I have troubles making sure I pay
                attention to everyone's aspects, I've not really worried about stunts.
                Also, they have fewer stunts, for the reasons I listed.

                You've got a point, I just don't think the average stunt is "worth" 1 refresh.

                --
                Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
                swiftone@...
              • Brett Ritter
                ... Murdock almost never got to shine. I think he skipped most games and was just an NPC for those. -- Brett Ritter / SwiftOne swiftone@swiftone.org
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 7, 2013
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                  On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 6:30 AM, Jeff <jbradley05@...> wrote:
                  > when do Murdock and B.A. get their chance to shine?

                  Murdock almost never got to shine. I think he skipped most games and
                  was just an NPC for those.

                  --
                  Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
                  swiftone@...
                • Brett Ritter
                  ... Now this is interesting. I see Stunts as a great way to round out a character, to add flavor, and to make their weakspots not entirely weak. So Elliot
                  Message 8 of 24 , Feb 7, 2013
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                    On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 6:31 AM, Michael Thompson <mdthompson@...> wrote:
                    > Its been my experience that players tend to grab stunts that pile onto their peak skills so that when they're 'in the Zone' and doing what the character is all about doing, they really shine. And since these are the peak skills, I try to put those
                    > scenes in my games so that they get a chance to shine. As such, I've never felt stunts were under powered, even in DFRPG.

                    Now this is interesting. I see Stunts as a great way to round out a
                    character, to add flavor, and to make their weakspots not entirely
                    weak. So Elliot can Cook and play guitar, Hardison can play violin
                    and whip out some awesome accents, despite those two having vastly
                    different "core" peaks. Thus, those areas pop up less often, and
                    players don't equate a limited-use stunt with an always-useful FP.

                    For covering their core, that's where I see Aspects as being relevant.
                    Sure, they might have a Stunt, but putting more than a single stunt
                    into one area can be quite limiting to their concept. It's
                    interesting that you view this as "watering down" - different strokes,
                    I guess.

                    > As for refresh, it seems my players always spend it down to 1-2 and fish for compels. But FPs flow pretty fast and loose at our table.

                    2 was the breaking point for us. PCs with 2+ refresh spent freely.
                    PCs with 1 didn't. FP was also not a good motivator for my group:
                    they'll self-compel when they want to, and not for FP. So when I hit
                    the right character cues, they self-compel all over, but if they're
                    rolling along happily, no compels, no FP.

                    --
                    Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
                    swiftone@...
                  • GalacticCmdr
                    You mean that Murdock and BA have not been involved in the social scene or they disappeared during the break-in? During the show both of the characters were
                    Message 9 of 24 , Feb 7, 2013
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                      You mean that Murdock and BA have not been involved in the social scene or they disappeared during the break-in? During the show both of the characters were heavily involved in both the social and sneaky 3c. Just because BA is the muscle and Murdock the wheelman does not mean that they only focus on that.

                      Sure, maybe Hannibal and Face both got to use their major stunts 3 times each during that session, while BA and Murdock only saw a single use - but the next scene involved a car chase and a big shoot out where BA and Murdock used their stunts 3 times each that scene.

                      Every stunt does not have to be used an equal amount in every scene; however, a player is sending the GM a strong signal with the purchase of a stunt - just as they do with their aspects.

                      If the GM is not listening and constantly avoiding bringing that into play there is a communication and expectation problem - not a system problem.



                      Chip



                      On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Jeff <jbradley05@...> wrote:
                       

                      I agree with this for the most part; however, the difficulty (or rarity) stems in my experience from players choosing a broad variety of skills for their characters. The GM just can't tap everyone all the time, so he's forced to compromise. This means some stunts will end up used less frequently than others.

                      To continue your example, that social session was great for "Templeton Faceman Peck", and breaking into the time-share lair was perfect for "John 'Hannibal" Smith", but when do Murdock and B.A. get their chance to shine?




                      On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 9:17 AM, GalacticCmdr <galacticcmdr@...> wrote:
                       

                      Just because something is interesting does not mean that it will occur only rarely. When a player selects a stunt, their keystone skills, and aspects - they are signaling to the GM what they feel is important. That is what is interesting. If a player puts down a stunt and the GM ignores it so that it is only coming into play averaging less than 1/session, you have a GM problem, not a stunt problem.

                      Sure, maybe that skulking stunt for burglary did not come into play this session because everyone spent their time having their characters socialize or outright head bashing. But maybe it will come into play several times next session when they break into the BBG's time-share lair.

                      Of course, you could turn that around and say a GM that ignores a players character sheet is signaling to them that their character is just not a match for the type of game they wish to run. Of course, by then it is more of a communication issue than anything else.

                      According to the Dec4 drop, minor milestones occur at the end of a session of play - or when a piece of story has been resolved (which means it might happen in the middle of the session). During that time you can swap out stunts (assuming that is what you picked). So stunts can flow in and out of your character as needed.




                      Chip




                      --
                      “Irreverence is the champion of liberty and its only sure defense. True irreverence is disrespect for another man’s god.” – Mark Twain

                    • Jeff
                      I think the point I m trying to make is that my players tend to specialize, and it can be difficult for a GM to make sure everyone gets their chance to shine.
                      Message 10 of 24 , Feb 7, 2013
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                        I think the point I'm trying to make is that my players tend to specialize, and it can be difficult for a GM to make sure everyone gets their chance to shine. That's true of Aspects, Skills, and Stunts, but you're absolutely right about it not being a system problem. The same difficulties existed in every game I've ever run or played.

                        Also to your point, the fix is likely at the scene level. Keep those varied, and that's probably half the battle won.

                        And now I really want to play in an A-Team one-shot . . . 


                        On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 9:46 AM, GalacticCmdr <galacticcmdr@...> wrote:
                         

                        You mean that Murdock and BA have not been involved in the social scene or they disappeared during the break-in? During the show both of the characters were heavily involved in both the social and sneaky 3c. Just because BA is the muscle and Murdock the wheelman does not mean that they only focus on that.

                        Sure, maybe Hannibal and Face both got to use their major stunts 3 times each during that session, while BA and Murdock only saw a single use - but the next scene involved a car chase and a big shoot out where BA and Murdock used their stunts 3 times each that scene.

                        Every stunt does not have to be used an equal amount in every scene; however, a player is sending the GM a strong signal with the purchase of a stunt - just as they do with their aspects.

                        If the GM is not listening and constantly avoiding bringing that into play there is a communication and expectation problem - not a system problem.



                        Chip



                        On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 9:30 AM, Jeff <jbradley05@...> wrote:
                         

                        I agree with this for the most part; however, the difficulty (or rarity) stems in my experience from players choosing a broad variety of skills for their characters. The GM just can't tap everyone all the time, so he's forced to compromise. This means some stunts will end up used less frequently than others.

                        To continue your example, that social session was great for "Templeton Faceman Peck", and breaking into the time-share lair was perfect for "John 'Hannibal" Smith", but when do Murdock and B.A. get their chance to shine?




                        On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 9:17 AM, GalacticCmdr <galacticcmdr@...> wrote:
                         

                        Just because something is interesting does not mean that it will occur only rarely. When a player selects a stunt, their keystone skills, and aspects - they are signaling to the GM what they feel is important. That is what is interesting. If a player puts down a stunt and the GM ignores it so that it is only coming into play averaging less than 1/session, you have a GM problem, not a stunt problem.

                        Sure, maybe that skulking stunt for burglary did not come into play this session because everyone spent their time having their characters socialize or outright head bashing. But maybe it will come into play several times next session when they break into the BBG's time-share lair.

                        Of course, you could turn that around and say a GM that ignores a players character sheet is signaling to them that their character is just not a match for the type of game they wish to run. Of course, by then it is more of a communication issue than anything else.

                        According to the Dec4 drop, minor milestones occur at the end of a session of play - or when a piece of story has been resolved (which means it might happen in the middle of the session). During that time you can swap out stunts (assuming that is what you picked). So stunts can flow in and out of your character as needed.




                        Chip




                        --
                        “Irreverence is the champion of liberty and its only sure defense. True irreverence is disrespect for another man’s god.” – Mark Twain


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