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Re: [FateRPG] Re: Scene Aspects

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  • Brett Ritter
    ... Auras Tidbits Notes Issues Baggage Smoke Aspects Tenuous Aspects -- Brett Ritter / SwiftOne swiftone@swiftone.org
    Message 1 of 29 , Jan 16, 2013
      On Wed, Jan 16, 2013 at 10:06 PM, U.N.Owen <winter.avarice@...> wrote:
      I'm literally just going to type stuff as it comes to my head only ditching only the things that are downright odd. So a lot of these are going to sound stupid. Hopefully one of these ideas will spark a better idea.

      Auras
      Tidbits
      Notes
      Issues
      Baggage
      Smoke Aspects
      Tenuous Aspects
      --
      Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
      swiftone@...
    • Jonathan Lang
      Personally, I d go with Narrative Aspects. These represent aspects of the narrative that are significant enough that a player should be able to use them as
      Message 2 of 29 , Jan 16, 2013
        Personally, I'd go with Narrative Aspects.  These represent aspects of the narrative that are significant enough that a player should be able to use them as justification for spending a Fate Point for a bonus or as justification for a complication in the story.  

        Alternately, call them Story Aspects and come up with a different name for what are currently called Story Aspects (e.g., Themes?)

        On Jan 16, 2013, at 9:55 PM, Fred Hicks <evilhat@...> wrote:

         

        I've heard a complaint about the terminology choice a fair amount, but no good alternatives any of the time it's been raised (as noted, "temporary aspect" is just as troubled).


        Let's hear some alternative terminology proposals that work for all current situations in which scene aspects show up. 

        Go!

        Fred

      • theshadowxiii
        There s a term already in the rules: Advantages . Nothing implied there about duration, though it s sort of implied there is one.
        Message 3 of 29 , Jan 16, 2013
          There's a term already in the rules: "Advantages". Nothing implied there about duration, though it's sort of implied there is one.

          --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hicks wrote:
          >
          > I've heard a complaint about the terminology choice a fair amount, but no
          > good alternatives any of the time it's been raised (as noted, "temporary
          > aspect" is just as troubled).
          >
          > Let's hear some alternative terminology proposals that work for all current
          > situations in which scene aspects show up.
          >
          > Go!
          >
          > Fred
          >
        • Norm Sager
          Perhaps Scenery Aspect would be a better name? ... -- Norm Sager saglyphe@optonline.net
          Message 4 of 29 , Jan 17, 2013
            Perhaps Scenery Aspect would be a better name?

            On 1/16/2013 11:00 PM, Brett Ritter wrote:
             
            So these don't necessarily attach to the scene, they might last less than a scene or more than a scene...why do we call them Scene Aspects?

            --
            Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
            swiftone@...

            -- 
            Norm Sager
            saglyphe@...
          • Dennis D Duquette
            I d like something like index aspects , aspects of note , or the like. I m thinking the main distinction for these aspects is the mechanical difference.
            Message 5 of 29 , Jan 17, 2013
              I'd like something like "index aspects", "aspects of note", or the like. I'm thinking the main distinction for these aspects is the mechanical difference. They're on an index card, or a slip if note paper, or something similar on the table. This is as opposed to on a character sheet, or written on the map, etc. Linking the terminology to the game mechanics leads to clarity and brevity, both. 

              I hope this helps. 

              Sent from my iPhone

              On Jan 17, 2013, at 0:55, Fred Hicks <evilhat@...> wrote:

               

              I've heard a complaint about the terminology choice a fair amount, but no good alternatives any of the time it's been raised (as noted, "temporary aspect" is just as troubled).


              Let's hear some alternative terminology proposals that work for all current situations in which scene aspects show up. 

              Go!

              Fred

            • Blade
              In what I am developing, I call them Circumstances, and just define them as aspects that last until the end of the scene or until makes sense . I just
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 17, 2013
                In what I am developing, I call them Circumstances, and just define them as "aspects that last until the end of the scene or until makes sense". I just contrast them to Boosts and Character aspects.


                --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hicks wrote:

                > Let's hear some alternative terminology proposals that work for all current
                > situations in which scene aspects show up.
                >
                > Go!
                >
                > Fred
                >
              • Fred Hicks
                Circumstances and Advantages seem like pretty solid suggestions. I ll mull the matter over with the dev folks. Fred ... -- Fred Hicks Co-President, Evil Hat
                Message 7 of 29 , Jan 17, 2013
                  Circumstances and Advantages seem like pretty solid suggestions. I'll mull the matter over with the dev folks.

                  Fred

                  On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 10:46 AM, Blade <lakem@...> wrote:
                  In what I am developing, I call them Circumstances, and just define them as "aspects that last until the end of the scene or until makes sense". I just contrast them to Boosts and Character aspects.


                  --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hicks  wrote:

                  > Let's hear some alternative terminology proposals that work for all current
                  > situations in which scene aspects show up.
                  >
                  > Go!
                  >
                  > Fred
                  >




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                  --
                  Fred Hicks
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                  Freelance Layoutist * Game Publishing Blogger - www.deadlyfredly.com
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                • dsevermore
                  Okay, I guess I m in a different camp. I never had a problem confusing aspects that last a scene with anything else. Right now we have * permanent aspects:
                  Message 8 of 29 , Jan 17, 2013
                    Okay, I guess I'm in a different camp. I never had a problem confusing aspects that last a scene with anything else.

                    Right now we have
                    * permanent aspects: Game Aspects & Character Aspects
                    * temporary aspects: Scene Aspects, Consequences, & Boosts

                    I really don't want or need yet another name for aspects. The Core rules as written is very clear to me, anyway.

                    If you absolutely must define another group of aspects to describe aspects on a scene, I'd use "location aspects" but such terminology would likely never leave the pages of my adventure notes. I wouldn't throw another term at my players.

                    D Evermore


                    --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hicks wrote:
                    >
                    > I've heard a complaint about the terminology choice a fair amount, but no
                    > good alternatives any of the time it's been raised (as noted, "temporary
                    > aspect" is just as troubled).
                    >
                    > Let's hear some alternative terminology proposals that work for all current
                    > situations in which scene aspects show up.
                    >
                    > Go!
                    >
                    > Fred
                    >
                  • Brad Murray
                    I agree; I m a little concerned with the ballooning terminology. On the other hand, as a process it s not a bad idea to get all the ideas out and named and
                    Message 9 of 29 , Jan 17, 2013
                      I agree; I'm a little concerned with the ballooning terminology. On the other hand, as a process it's not a bad idea to get all the ideas out and named and then edit aggressively to pare back based on shared functionality. I trust the editors to hack this into a manageable form once the ideas all have names.

                      And for the record, I think a lot of the terminology is a little precious. I'd rather that all we ever do is "tag" aspects -- it's what will get said at the table, it's short, it's sweet. But that's a personal thing. And again: don't rule out the editors.


                      On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 11:10 AM, dsevermore <devermore@...> wrote:
                       

                      Okay, I guess I'm in a different camp. I never had a problem confusing aspects that last a scene with anything else.

                      Right now we have
                      * permanent aspects: Game Aspects & Character Aspects
                      * temporary aspects: Scene Aspects, Consequences, & Boosts

                      I really don't want or need yet another name for aspects. The Core rules as written is very clear to me, anyway.

                      If you absolutely must define another group of aspects to describe aspects on a scene, I'd use "location aspects" but such terminology would likely never leave the pages of my adventure notes. I wouldn't throw another term at my players.

                      D Evermore

                      --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hicks wrote:
                      >
                      > I've heard a complaint about the terminology choice a fair amount, but no
                      > good alternatives any of the time it's been raised (as noted, "temporary
                      > aspect" is just as troubled).
                      >
                      > Let's hear some alternative terminology proposals that work for all current
                      > situations in which scene aspects show up.
                      >
                      > Go!
                      >
                      > Fred
                      >




                      --
                      Brad Murray (halfjack)
                      VSCA Publishing
                    • Fred Hicks
                      Yeah, I am a fan of tag (but biased: I came up with it), but that, itself, got pared away as its own kind of precious. :) Fred On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 11:15
                      Message 10 of 29 , Jan 17, 2013
                        Yeah, I am a fan of 'tag' (but biased: I came up with it), but that, itself, got pared away as its own kind of precious. :)

                        Fred

                        On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 11:15 AM, Brad Murray <bjmurray.halfjack@...> wrote:


                        I agree; I'm a little concerned with the ballooning terminology. On the other hand, as a process it's not a bad idea to get all the ideas out and named and then edit aggressively to pare back based on shared functionality. I trust the editors to hack this into a manageable form once the ideas all have names.

                        And for the record, I think a lot of the terminology is a little precious. I'd rather that all we ever do is "tag" aspects -- it's what will get said at the table, it's short, it's sweet. But that's a personal thing. And again: don't rule out the editors.


                        On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 11:10 AM, dsevermore <devermore@...> wrote:
                         

                        Okay, I guess I'm in a different camp. I never had a problem confusing aspects that last a scene with anything else.

                        Right now we have
                        * permanent aspects: Game Aspects & Character Aspects
                        * temporary aspects: Scene Aspects, Consequences, & Boosts

                        I really don't want or need yet another name for aspects. The Core rules as written is very clear to me, anyway.

                        If you absolutely must define another group of aspects to describe aspects on a scene, I'd use "location aspects" but such terminology would likely never leave the pages of my adventure notes. I wouldn't throw another term at my players.

                        D Evermore

                        --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hicks wrote:
                        >
                        > I've heard a complaint about the terminology choice a fair amount, but no
                        > good alternatives any of the time it's been raised (as noted, "temporary
                        > aspect" is just as troubled).
                        >
                        > Let's hear some alternative terminology proposals that work for all current
                        > situations in which scene aspects show up.
                        >
                        > Go!
                        >
                        > Fred
                        >




                        --
                        Brad Murray (halfjack)
                        VSCA Publishing





                        --
                        Fred Hicks
                        Co-President, Evil Hat Productions, LLC - www.evilhat.com
                        Freelance Layoutist * Game Publishing Blogger - www.deadlyfredly.com
                        For "real time" updates: http://twitter.com/fredhicks http://gplus.to/fredhicks
                      • Brett Ritter
                        ... If you call them aspects , I m fine. But if you call them scene aspects , then they should either last a scene (not longer) or attach to a scene. What
                        Message 11 of 29 , Jan 17, 2013
                          On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 8:10 AM, dsevermore <devermore@...> wrote:
                          > Okay, I guess I'm in a different camp. I never had a problem confusing aspects that last a scene with anything else.

                          If you call them "aspects", I'm fine. But if you call them "scene
                          aspects", then they should either last a scene (not longer) or attach
                          to a scene. What we have now is some "scene aspects" that don't do
                          either.

                          --
                          Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
                          swiftone@...
                        • Fred Hicks
                          We ve got some potential term shifts and clarifications underway. Feedback impact: already happening! Fred ... -- Fred Hicks Co-President, Evil Hat
                          Message 12 of 29 , Jan 17, 2013
                            We've got some potential term shifts and clarifications underway. Feedback impact: already happening!

                            Fred

                            On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Brett Ritter <swiftone@...> wrote:
                            On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 8:10 AM, dsevermore <devermore@...> wrote:
                            > Okay, I guess I'm in a different camp. I never had a problem confusing aspects that last a scene with anything else.

                            If you call them "aspects", I'm fine.  But if you call them "scene
                            aspects", then they should either last a scene (not longer) or attach
                            to a scene.  What we have now is some "scene aspects" that don't do
                            either.

                            --
                            Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
                            swiftone@...


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                            --
                            Fred Hicks
                            Co-President, Evil Hat Productions, LLC - www.evilhat.com
                            Freelance Layoutist * Game Publishing Blogger - www.deadlyfredly.com
                            For "real time" updates: http://twitter.com/fredhicks http://gplus.to/fredhicks
                          • Brett Ritter
                            ... I wasn t complaining! You guys have been great on taking feedback. Just clarifying, since it s easy to think scene aspect is non-confusing. (Indeed,
                            Message 13 of 29 , Jan 17, 2013
                              On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 9:54 AM, Fred Hicks <evilhat@...> wrote:
                              We've got some potential term shifts and clarifications underway. Feedback impact: already happening!

                              I wasn't complaining!  You guys have been great on taking feedback.  Just clarifying, since it's easy to think "scene aspect" is non-confusing.  (Indeed, when my tester reported his confusion, I thought he was wrong....then I double-checked the text).

                              Now, about getting us a new draft to read... :)

                              --
                              Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
                              swiftone@...
                            • Leonard Balsera
                              ... I swear, every time Brett trolls me, we end up changing something in the book... ;) (Guys, I m joking. Put those guns down. Sheesh.) -- Leonard Balsera,
                              Message 14 of 29 , Jan 17, 2013
                                On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 11:54 AM, Fred Hicks <evilhat@...> wrote:
                                > We've got some potential term shifts and clarifications underway. Feedback impact: already happening!

                                I swear, every time Brett trolls me, we end up changing something in
                                the book... ;)

                                (Guys, I'm joking. Put those guns down. Sheesh.)

                                --
                                Leonard Balsera, Fate System Developer for Evil Hat Productions
                                lbalsera@...
                                www.evilhat.com
                                https://www.facebook.com/EvilHatProductions
                              • Javier Gaspoz
                                I m perfectly fine with the term scene aspects , though I can see there could create some confusion. I d just describe scene aspects as aspects that lasts
                                Message 15 of 29 , Jan 17, 2013

                                  I'm perfectly fine with the term "scene aspects", though I can see there could create some confusion. I'd just describe scene aspects as "aspects that lasts for a single scene, most likely the scene in which they were created". Scene is a unit of dramatic time, so a scene aspect have time connotations, not necessary related to places and/or objects or persons.

                                • Fred Hicks
                                  The real problem *I* have with scene aspects is that most of our X aspect -- including past uses of scene aspect -- refer to the *locus* of the aspect
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Jan 17, 2013
                                    The real problem *I* have with "scene aspects" is that most of our "X aspect" -- including past uses of "scene aspect" -- refer to the locus of the aspect rather than its duration, and when it's duration the duration-ness is pretty clear, e.g., temporary aspect.

                                    A lot of confusion crops up around the use of "scene", thus, because the question comes up as to whether the aspect is on the scene or scene-length. Then there's inconsistency about it being only scene-length once that's cleared up.

                                    We've got an angle on this. Thanks for the discussion, folks!

                                    Fred 

                                    On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 1:18 PM, Javier Gaspoz <zooroos@...> wrote:


                                    I'm perfectly fine with the term "scene aspects", though I can see there could create some confusion. I'd just describe scene aspects as "aspects that lasts for a single scene, most likely the scene in which they were created". Scene is a unit of dramatic time, so a scene aspect have time connotations, not necessary related to places and/or objects or persons.






                                    --
                                    Fred Hicks
                                    Co-President, Evil Hat Productions, LLC - www.evilhat.com
                                    Freelance Layoutist * Game Publishing Blogger - www.deadlyfredly.com
                                    For "real time" updates: http://twitter.com/fredhicks http://gplus.to/fredhicks
                                  • Charles & Jennifer
                                    Scene Aspect - When the GM creates the scene he puts a couple of aspects on it. These are called Scene Aspects. They work as described in the rules. Advantage
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Jan 17, 2013
                                      Scene Aspect - When the GM creates the scene he puts a couple of aspects on it. These are called Scene Aspects. They work as described in the rules.

                                      Advantage Aspect - When a character succeeds at a Create Advantage check they get to apply a new aspect on something to represent the advantage created. These aspects are called Advantage Aspects and generally last until the end of the scene. An Advantage aspect can be applied to the target, the scene, the character or most anything else appropriate.

                                      Those are my preferences. Minimal change but increased clarity. Are there other areas of aspect confusion? I do not recall any...

                                      Charles




                                      --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hicks wrote:
                                      >
                                      > I've heard a complaint about the terminology choice a fair amount, but no
                                      > good alternatives any of the time it's been raised (as noted, "temporary
                                      > aspect" is just as troubled).
                                      >
                                      > Let's hear some alternative terminology proposals that work for all current
                                      > situations in which scene aspects show up.
                                      >
                                      > Go!
                                      >
                                      > Fred
                                      >
                                    • Brett Ritter
                                      ... Oh man, such power, but at such a price! (I have mentioned that you guys have created a system that satisfies and excites me more than anything in an RPG
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Jan 17, 2013
                                        On Thu, Jan 17, 2013 at 10:00 AM, Leonard Balsera <lbalsera@...> wrote:
                                        > I swear, every time Brett trolls me, we end up changing something in
                                        > the book... ;)

                                        Oh man, such power, but at such a price!

                                        (I have mentioned that you guys have created a system that satisfies
                                        and excites me more than anything in an RPG in the past decade,
                                        right?)
                                        --
                                        Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
                                        swiftone@...
                                      • sk1mble
                                        Whatever you do, I think advantages created with the create advantage action still need to have the word aspect in their title. I think this is a problem
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Jan 17, 2013
                                          Whatever you do, I think advantages created with the create advantage action still need to have the word 'aspect' in their title. I think this is a problem with the term 'boost', too.

                                          I would be inclined to use this terminology:

                                          Boost - Bonus Aspect

                                          Scene aspect - Situational aspect

                                          Then all you'd need is a note that situational aspects last as long as the fiction says is sensible, default of one scene of active use.

                                          I kind of like the idea of Intrinsic aspects (meaning aspects that are part of a scene like walls etc.) and Extrinsic aspects (aspects applied as a result of create advantage etc.) but I guess those aren't the friendliest terms to use.
                                        • theshadowxiii
                                          I could get behind this terminology. Circumstances also has a nice ring to it - that might be good for environmental stuff. Question: When Bloody Nikka
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Jan 17, 2013
                                            I could get behind this terminology. 'Circumstances' also has a nice ring to it - that might be good for environmental stuff.

                                            Question: When Bloody Nikka tries to put an aspect on everyone in the group, shouldn't she take a penalty for affecting multiple people? Or is that just a GM call to waive, since it's admittedly cool?

                                            --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, "Charles & Jennifer" wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Scene Aspect - When the GM creates the scene he puts a couple of aspects on it. These are called Scene Aspects. They work as described in the rules.
                                            >
                                            > Advantage Aspect - When a character succeeds at a Create Advantage check they get to apply a new aspect on something to represent the advantage created. These aspects are called Advantage Aspects and generally last until the end of the scene. An Advantage aspect can be applied to the target, the scene, the character or most anything else appropriate.
                                            >
                                            > Those are my preferences. Minimal change but increased clarity. Are there other areas of aspect confusion? I do not recall any...
                                            >
                                            > Charles
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hicks wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > I've heard a complaint about the terminology choice a fair amount, but no
                                            > > good alternatives any of the time it's been raised (as noted, "temporary
                                            > > aspect" is just as troubled).
                                            > >
                                            > > Let's hear some alternative terminology proposals that work for all current
                                            > > situations in which scene aspects show up.
                                            > >
                                            > > Go!
                                            > >
                                            > > Fred
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • Bill Collins
                                            Current terminology could work well. Scene Consequences? I.e. the lingering Scene Aspect (in SotC terms) is sticky . It s equivalent to a Consequence -
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Jan 17, 2013
                                              Current terminology could work well. Scene Consequences? I.e. the lingering Scene Aspect (in SotC terms) is "sticky". It's equivalent to a Consequence - Moderate or higher since it doesn't go away at the end of the scene.
                                            • dinkster8
                                              Scene Aspect confused my players so I started referring to them simply as aspects and explained that different aspects have different durations. The only
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Jan 18, 2013
                                                Scene Aspect confused my players so I started referring to them simply as aspects and explained that different aspects have different durations. The only aspects I "name" are character aspects and consequences. This seems to work okay. Here are some examples of what we encountered in the past.

                                                A character uses Craft to create the "scene" aspect "Razor Sharp" on his sword. Obviously this character isn't going to want to use this aspect in the same scene he sharpens it, so the ruling was that it lasted the scene after he used his free invoke.

                                                Another character gets the "Treasure" aspect from slaying a dragon. This would be esentially a boost, that lasts until she uses it.

                                                If, as in Sky Blue, gear is treated as an aspect, the longsword aspect lasts forever.

                                                Since a scene aspect lasting a scene seems to be the exception rather than the rule, it's just an "aspect" no further description needed. If you did this of course you would have to include a passage about determining the duration of aspects at the time of creation (with scene perhaps being the rule of thumb) so that folks don't assume everything is permanent.
                                              • Kurt Rauscher
                                                While I read earlier emails in this thread, post-it notes came to mind for tracking aspects. Which immediately brought Sticky Aspects to mind. I d
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Jan 22, 2013

                                                  While I read earlier emails in this thread, post-it notes came to mind for tracking aspects.  Which immediately brought "Sticky Aspects" to mind.  I'd forgotten about that from SotC.  They stick around longer than boosts and I think that sounds more catchy than " temporary". 

                                                  --
                                                  Sent from my Transformer Prime.

                                                  On Jan 17, 2013 8:44 PM, "Bill Collins" <bill.collins@...> wrote:


                                                  Current terminology could work well. Scene Consequences? I.e. the lingering Scene Aspect (in SotC terms) is "sticky". It's equivalent to a Consequence - Moderate or higher since it doesn't go away at the end of the scene.


                                                • demonsbane
                                                  Having read the suggestions so far in this thread, my proposal is Contingent Aspect .
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Jan 23, 2013
                                                    Having read the suggestions so far in this thread, my proposal is 'Contingent Aspect'.


                                                    --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Fred Hicks wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > I've heard a complaint about the terminology choice a fair amount, but no
                                                    > good alternatives any of the time it's been raised (as noted, "temporary
                                                    > aspect" is just as troubled).
                                                    >
                                                    > Let's hear some alternative terminology proposals that work for all current
                                                    > situations in which scene aspects show up.
                                                    >
                                                    > Go!
                                                    >
                                                    > Fred
                                                    >
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