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My own brand of FATE

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  • John Rudd
    So, I said when I got here, and I ve mentioned a few times since then, that what I m doing is sort of a mis-mash of OSR (old school renaissance, like 0e
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 8, 2013

      So, I said when I got here, and I've mentioned a few times since then, that what I'm doing is sort of a mis-mash of "OSR" (old school renaissance, like 0e D&D), "Warrior Rogue Mage" (WRM), and FUDGE/FATE... with some of my own ideas, some elements of the old Dreampark RPG, a few elements from MERP/Cyberspace/HARP, and some elements of TWERPS.

      Here's my thoughts so far:

      0) The trait Ladder:  drop "Epic" and "Legendary", swap "Fair" and "Average", add 2 to the values.  So, Terrible is 0, Average is 4, and Fantastic is 8.

      1) Skills -- inspired by WRM/RAG, there will be six:
      ----- Warrior (all things fighting, strength, constitution, and fortitude)
      ----- Adept (all things mystical, "wisdom", "will", casting, resisting/saving)
      ----- Genius or Sage (all things academic, intelligence, wits, reasoning, memory)
      ----- Expert (all things with manual/craftsman like skill, both smiths and thieves)
      ----- Diplomat (or ?) (all things social, charisma, emotional, artistic)
      ----- Resources (all things financial, lifestyle, wealth, etc.)

      Skills will _always_ total 24.  At milestones, you can adjust them by varying amounts, but anything you raise, you have to lower a different one, so that the numeric total is always 24.  4 really does mean "Average" -- it's the middle of the pack, and if you set all values to 4, you're average at everything.

      2) Add a new scale: Character Level.  If two adversaries of the same Level oppose each other, no math.  If they're not the same Level, then the difference is a bonus to the higher Level character (OR a penalty to the lower Level character, depending on what you're doing).

      OR, you can do things objectively instead of relatively:  Total Skill Value = CL + Skill Value.

      So, when you're "Average" as a Warrior, you're "Average" within your Character Level, but if you're an Apprentice (CL 3, so CL+Average = 7) against an Epic character (CL 10ish), even if he's a Terrible Warrior (for a total CL+Terrible of 10) he's still got your Total Skill beat by 3.

      3) Character Points:
      Stunts cost 4
      Refresh costs 4

      4) Feats ... Stunts for Aspects.  Cost 4 character points.  Some slight differences from Stunts (as some others have outlined on this list; for example, one thing a Stunt might do is give you a narrow area in which an Aspect can be invoked without paying a FATE Point).

      5) Stunts don't have the +2 for a skill.  Instead, Aptitudes:  cost 1 character point, give you a +1 for an area of specific knowledge.  They aren't tied to a specific skill (but I might change my mind about that), and they don't stack with other Aptitudes -- so if you have more than one that apply to a situation, you still only get a +1.

      The specific list of Aptitudes will probably read a lot like the skill list from MERP and/or Cyberspace and/or HARP.

      6) Stunts are otherwise the same as in FATE Core.

      7) Drop "High Concept", replace it with 4 other Aspects (so a net gain of 3 aspects), one of which is optional depending on the genre:
      a) Setting -- reflects the game or character's default Genre, Tech Level, Magic Level, etc.
      b) Culture/Environment -- within the setting, did you have an urban upbringing? forrest? feral? tribal? migrant? mountain? hill? tunnel? asteroid belt vs water world?  etc.
      c) Class(es) -- broadstrokes definition of the character's archetype, expressed as one or more classes (which are a special type of aspect).  Can be changed or appended at Major Milestones.
      d) Species -- the optional one ... since some games are all humans.

      So, Middle Earth Sylvan Elf Ranger -> Setting is Middle Earth, Culture/Environment is Forrest, Species is Elf, Class is Ranger.

      These 4 special aspect types have various things that help describe them in a very specific and concrete way:

      i) Invokes -- specific, defined, ways that the Aspect can be invoked. The free-form/non-defined ways are still possible, but these ones are ones that everyone can depend upon being there.  They come in two flavors:  Free Invokes (don't cost a Fate Point) and Fueled Invokes (cost a Fate Point).  It costs a Feat to convert a Fueled Invoke into a Free Invoke.
      ii) Compels -- the "compel" flip-side of an Invoke.  Things you know can be used against you, without any quibbling.  It's part of the definition of that Class or Species or whatever.  Again, free-form/non-defined forms of compel are still possible, these are just the ones you can count on.

      I might use "Gift" and "Flaw" instead of "Invokes" and "Compels", to avoid confusing them with the method of invoking and compelling an aspect ... but I also don't want to risk confusing them with Fudge Gifts/Flaws.

      So, various features of OSR classes will be partially narratively defined, and partially defined with Invokes and Compels.  A "Fighter" will have Invokes that relate to weapons and armor.  A "Mage" will have Invokes that relate to arcane magic, and Compels about weapons and armor.  That kind of thing.  But I want to do it in a way that promotes easily creating new ones ... structure, but not so much structure that it gets in your way.

      8) At character creation, you get:
      2 Refresh, 2 Stunts, 2 Feats, 4 Aptitudes, and 4 extra character points (to spend on a Refresh, a Stunt, a Feat, or 4 more Aptitudes ... or to save for later), and you start at 3rd Character Level (late in your Apprenticeship, but before you've fully distinguished yourself as an individual).

      Instead of Major Milestones giving you an increase in Refresh, you get an increase in Character Level, and your new CL's numeric value in character points.

      They'll have the above 3 or 4 Aspects, plus a Trouble Aspect, plus 2 phases of the "phase trio" (reflecting things that happened to you in your Adolescence (CL 2) and early Apprenticeship (CL 3).  So, 6 or 7 total Aspects.  Slightly more than Fate Core specifies, but some of them are merely elaborations of the "High Concept".

      9) I want to write up some language about "Players always roll", even when an NPC is making an unopposed check -- a Player rolls it, and is basically rolling difficulty+dice vs NPC's skill ;  a low roll means NPC success and shifts toward the NPC's benefit, a high roll means the NPC failed (and possibly shifts toward the NPC's detriment, or a PC's benefit).

      10) "Professions" ... I know, if I have classes, and that specific set of Skills, what do I need with Professions?  It'll probably be your Apprenticeship Aspect, but it might also be "one more Aspect" -- I haven't decided yet.  And, your profession is not necessarily your class.  Fighter is a class.  Mercenary is a profession that a Fighter might take up.  Soldier is another profession that a Fighter might take up.  Or Thug.  They imply slightly different things, and I expect them to be far more narrative focused than classes.  My primary inspiration here will likely come from the list of Professions in "Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay", and/or the ones in Dungeon Crawl Classics.


      I think that mostly covers what I'm thinking about.  Though, I haven't figured out how/if I'll deal with weapon/armor/gadget "Familiarity"/"Proficiency".

      I'll probably build it on top of "Fate Accelerated Edition", since that will already be built around having a very narrow set of Skills... plus, I want the rest of the rule structure to be rather easy and minimal (I'll be adding enough extra structure by having fairly statically defined aspects for classes and such).

      I'm definitely planning to do what is basically a conversion of WRM and RAG (the pulp-adventure version of WRM) ... and from there I'll probably incorporate open content elements of Swords&Wizardry, Pathfinder, and Dungeon Crawl Classics.  I might try to plunder open content from a few other 0e/OSR games, but I also want to look at some sci-fi games (Mutant Future, and parts of d20 Modern's Future supplements, and the Cyberpunk themed variation of WRM).  But that will come in a phase 2.

      Before phase 2, but after I've got WRM, S&W, Pathfinder, and DCC material far enough along, I plan to run some games using S&W, d20, and DCC published modules, converting everything into the above mechanics.  I expect that once I work up a decent bestiary and grimoir, it shouldn't take much to run those modules almost "as is".


      Also, I have a name for my project.  "Tablets of Destiny" ... it's from Sumerian Mythology... and because destiny and fate are often relatives in mythology, I thought it sort of hints at being descended from FATE, without trying to highjack FATE, nor imply official status, by using FATE as part of the project name directly.


      So.   Thoughts?  I'm open to constructive criticism, but try to keep it within the realm of what I'm actually trying to accomplish... the bias for this project is kind of specific.  So, please don't try to argue-with/dismiss the idea of Classes, or the Character Level scale, or the slightly more rigid treatment of certain aspects, or dungeon crawls -- they're a requirement of the project.  But I definitely want to hear what people think the consequences of my decisions might be ... like having that many Aspects (if you include BOTH Species and Profession, that's 8 Aspects, compared to the 5 from Fate Core).  And I've got the equivalent of 8 Refresh in a starting character (I got that that might be ok, based on some discussion on the list about how Dresden characters start out with a lot more Refresh/Stunts -- but I'm forcing more than half of those to be spent in a particular way).


    • GalacticCmdr
      Okay. Given the tone of the last paragraph and your previous emails I would feel more comfortable discussing this if you outlined areas where you are willing
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 9, 2013
        Okay. Given the tone of the last paragraph and your previous emails I would feel more comfortable discussing this if you outlined areas where you are willing to take criticism (constructive or otherwise). I am more than willing to offer my thoughts, but I am hesitant to jump into a conversation that looks like a prickly minefield.

        So, I will do my best to step gingerly.

        1) What dice method? 4dF, Opposed d6s, d6-d6, etc?

        2) Given the small and rigid nature of the skills - do Stunts still retain the ability to add a new feature to an existing skill? You mentioned that stunts cannot provide the specialty bonus (+2), instead only allowing the general (+1) bonus - but otherwise stunts work the same as core.

        In the Dec4 FateCore drop under Stunts - it allows for Stunts to create a rules exception - basically allowing the movement on one feature of a skill to another skill. So, I could get a stunt that lets me put spell casting under my Fighting skill - call it War Wizard or something like that. It even fits a narration of a character that knows just a bit of "combat" magic, but none of the other arcane stuff.

        If this is not intended then maybe somewhere around section 4-6 put in that rules exceptions do not allow adjustment of the skills.


        This is all I feel comfortable discussing at this time on this thread as I do not wish intentions to blow up in my face. I wish you the best of luck as making a new RPG is a great way to scratch an itch.




        Chip


        On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 9:48 PM, John Rudd <johnkzin@...> wrote:
         


        So, I said when I got here, and I've mentioned a few times since then, that what I'm doing is sort of a mis-mash of "OSR" (old school renaissance, like 0e D&D), "Warrior Rogue Mage" (WRM), and FUDGE/FATE... with some of my own ideas, some elements of the old Dreampark RPG, a few elements from MERP/Cyberspace/HARP, and some elements of TWERPS.

        Here's my thoughts so far:

        0) The trait Ladder:  drop "Epic" and "Legendary", swap "Fair" and "Average", add 2 to the values.  So, Terrible is 0, Average is 4, and Fantastic is 8.

        1) Skills -- inspired by WRM/RAG, there will be six:
        ----- Warrior (all things fighting, strength, constitution, and fortitude)
        ----- Adept (all things mystical, "wisdom", "will", casting, resisting/saving)
        ----- Genius or Sage (all things academic, intelligence, wits, reasoning, memory)
        ----- Expert (all things with manual/craftsman like skill, both smiths and thieves)
        ----- Diplomat (or ?) (all things social, charisma, emotional, artistic)
        ----- Resources (all things financial, lifestyle, wealth, etc.)

        Skills will _always_ total 24.  At milestones, you can adjust them by varying amounts, but anything you raise, you have to lower a different one, so that the numeric total is always 24.  4 really does mean "Average" -- it's the middle of the pack, and if you set all values to 4, you're average at everything.

        2) Add a new scale: Character Level.  If two adversaries of the same Level oppose each other, no math.  If they're not the same Level, then the difference is a bonus to the higher Level character (OR a penalty to the lower Level character, depending on what you're doing).

        OR, you can do things objectively instead of relatively:  Total Skill Value = CL + Skill Value.

        So, when you're "Average" as a Warrior, you're "Average" within your Character Level, but if you're an Apprentice (CL 3, so CL+Average = 7) against an Epic character (CL 10ish), even if he's a Terrible Warrior (for a total CL+Terrible of 10) he's still got your Total Skill beat by 3.

        3) Character Points:
        Stunts cost 4
        Refresh costs 4

        4) Feats ... Stunts for Aspects.  Cost 4 character points.  Some slight differences from Stunts (as some others have outlined on this list; for example, one thing a Stunt might do is give you a narrow area in which an Aspect can be invoked without paying a FATE Point).

        5) Stunts don't have the +2 for a skill.  Instead, Aptitudes:  cost 1 character point, give you a +1 for an area of specific knowledge.  They aren't tied to a specific skill (but I might change my mind about that), and they don't stack with other Aptitudes -- so if you have more than one that apply to a situation, you still only get a +1.

        The specific list of Aptitudes will probably read a lot like the skill list from MERP and/or Cyberspace and/or HARP.

        6) Stunts are otherwise the same as in FATE Core.

        7) Drop "High Concept", replace it with 4 other Aspects (so a net gain of 3 aspects), one of which is optional depending on the genre:
        a) Setting -- reflects the game or character's default Genre, Tech Level, Magic Level, etc.
        b) Culture/Environment -- within the setting, did you have an urban upbringing? forrest? feral? tribal? migrant? mountain? hill? tunnel? asteroid belt vs water world?  etc.
        c) Class(es) -- broadstrokes definition of the character's archetype, expressed as one or more classes (which are a special type of aspect).  Can be changed or appended at Major Milestones.
        d) Species -- the optional one ... since some games are all humans.

        So, Middle Earth Sylvan Elf Ranger -> Setting is Middle Earth, Culture/Environment is Forrest, Species is Elf, Class is Ranger.

        These 4 special aspect types have various things that help describe them in a very specific and concrete way:

        i) Invokes -- specific, defined, ways that the Aspect can be invoked. The free-form/non-defined ways are still possible, but these ones are ones that everyone can depend upon being there.  They come in two flavors:  Free Invokes (don't cost a Fate Point) and Fueled Invokes (cost a Fate Point).  It costs a Feat to convert a Fueled Invoke into a Free Invoke.
        ii) Compels -- the "compel" flip-side of an Invoke.  Things you know can be used against you, without any quibbling.  It's part of the definition of that Class or Species or whatever.  Again, free-form/non-defined forms of compel are still possible, these are just the ones you can count on.

        I might use "Gift" and "Flaw" instead of "Invokes" and "Compels", to avoid confusing them with the method of invoking and compelling an aspect ... but I also don't want to risk confusing them with Fudge Gifts/Flaws.

        So, various features of OSR classes will be partially narratively defined, and partially defined with Invokes and Compels.  A "Fighter" will have Invokes that relate to weapons and armor.  A "Mage" will have Invokes that relate to arcane magic, and Compels about weapons and armor.  That kind of thing.  But I want to do it in a way that promotes easily creating new ones ... structure, but not so much structure that it gets in your way.

        8) At character creation, you get:
        2 Refresh, 2 Stunts, 2 Feats, 4 Aptitudes, and 4 extra character points (to spend on a Refresh, a Stunt, a Feat, or 4 more Aptitudes ... or to save for later), and you start at 3rd Character Level (late in your Apprenticeship, but before you've fully distinguished yourself as an individual).

        Instead of Major Milestones giving you an increase in Refresh, you get an increase in Character Level, and your new CL's numeric value in character points.

        They'll have the above 3 or 4 Aspects, plus a Trouble Aspect, plus 2 phases of the "phase trio" (reflecting things that happened to you in your Adolescence (CL 2) and early Apprenticeship (CL 3).  So, 6 or 7 total Aspects.  Slightly more than Fate Core specifies, but some of them are merely elaborations of the "High Concept".

        9) I want to write up some language about "Players always roll", even when an NPC is making an unopposed check -- a Player rolls it, and is basically rolling difficulty+dice vs NPC's skill ;  a low roll means NPC success and shifts toward the NPC's benefit, a high roll means the NPC failed (and possibly shifts toward the NPC's detriment, or a PC's benefit).

        10) "Professions" ... I know, if I have classes, and that specific set of Skills, what do I need with Professions?  It'll probably be your Apprenticeship Aspect, but it might also be "one more Aspect" -- I haven't decided yet.  And, your profession is not necessarily your class.  Fighter is a class.  Mercenary is a profession that a Fighter might take up.  Soldier is another profession that a Fighter might take up.  Or Thug.  They imply slightly different things, and I expect them to be far more narrative focused than classes.  My primary inspiration here will likely come from the list of Professions in "Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay", and/or the ones in Dungeon Crawl Classics.


        I think that mostly covers what I'm thinking about.  Though, I haven't figured out how/if I'll deal with weapon/armor/gadget "Familiarity"/"Proficiency".

        I'll probably build it on top of "Fate Accelerated Edition", since that will already be built around having a very narrow set of Skills... plus, I want the rest of the rule structure to be rather easy and minimal (I'll be adding enough extra structure by having fairly statically defined aspects for classes and such).

        I'm definitely planning to do what is basically a conversion of WRM and RAG (the pulp-adventure version of WRM) ... and from there I'll probably incorporate open content elements of Swords&Wizardry, Pathfinder, and Dungeon Crawl Classics.  I might try to plunder open content from a few other 0e/OSR games, but I also want to look at some sci-fi games (Mutant Future, and parts of d20 Modern's Future supplements, and the Cyberpunk themed variation of WRM).  But that will come in a phase 2.

        Before phase 2, but after I've got WRM, S&W, Pathfinder, and DCC material far enough along, I plan to run some games using S&W, d20, and DCC published modules, converting everything into the above mechanics.  I expect that once I work up a decent bestiary and grimoir, it shouldn't take much to run those modules almost "as is".


        Also, I have a name for my project.  "Tablets of Destiny" ... it's from Sumerian Mythology... and because destiny and fate are often relatives in mythology, I thought it sort of hints at being descended from FATE, without trying to highjack FATE, nor imply official status, by using FATE as part of the project name directly.


        So.   Thoughts?  I'm open to constructive criticism, but try to keep it within the realm of what I'm actually trying to accomplish... the bias for this project is kind of specific.  So, please don't try to argue-with/dismiss the idea of Classes, or the Character Level scale, or the slightly more rigid treatment of certain aspects, or dungeon crawls -- they're a requirement of the project.  But I definitely want to hear what people think the consequences of my decisions might be ... like having that many Aspects (if you include BOTH Species and Profession, that's 8 Aspects, compared to the 5 from Fate Core).  And I've got the equivalent of 8 Refresh in a starting character (I got that that might be ok, based on some discussion on the list about how Dresden characters start out with a lot more Refresh/Stunts -- but I'm forcing more than half of those to be spent in a particular way).





        --
        “Irreverence is the champion of liberty and its only sure defense. True irreverence is disrespect for another man’s god.” – Mark Twain

      • John Rudd
        ... Not so much a prickly minefield as ... I m new here, and I don t know how anti-D&D things are. I want criticisms to be agnostic about that -- I m not
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 9, 2013


          On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 6:28 AM, GalacticCmdr <galacticcmdr@...> wrote:
          Okay. Given the tone of the last paragraph and your previous emails I would feel more comfortable discussing this if you outlined areas where you are willing to take criticism (constructive or otherwise). I am more than willing to offer my thoughts, but I am hesitant to jump into a conversation that looks like a prickly minefield.

          Not so much a prickly minefield as ... I'm new here, and I don't know how "anti-D&D" things are.  I want criticisms to be agnostic about that -- I'm not wanting to debate "is an OSR/0eD&D focus interesting/appropriate/cool/etc.", or the merits of 0e/OSR, or anything like that.

          I know that there's an emphasis in FATE on "focusing on awesome" and that seems to me to be almost like "focusing on cinematic action type fiction".  Which is fine, I don't mind that at all... but that's not really how I'd describe OSR.  I don't want to bog the discussion down in the merits of either of those flavors.


          So, I will do my best to step gingerly.

          1) What dice method? 4dF, Opposed d6s, d6-d6, etc?

          I'm not tying it to a specific dice mechanic.  I've actually worked out a chart of results that makes it easy to use d%, 3d6, and a few other methods as "drop in replacements" for 4dF, keeping the probabilities as close to 4dF as possible.
           

          2) Given the small and rigid nature of the skills - do Stunts still retain the ability to add a new feature to an existing skill? You mentioned that stunts cannot provide the specialty bonus (+2), instead only allowing the general (+1) bonus - but otherwise stunts work the same as core.

          Everything except the +2/+1 bonus -- that got moved to Aptitudes.  Which you could say are "cheaper Stunts, focused just on the +1 bonus".
           

          In the Dec4 FateCore drop under Stunts - it allows for Stunts to create a rules exception - basically allowing the movement on one feature of a skill to another skill. So, I could get a stunt that lets me put spell casting under my Fighting skill - call it War Wizard or something like that. It even fits a narration of a character that knows just a bit of "combat" magic, but none of the other arcane stuff.

          If this is not intended then maybe somewhere around section 4-6 put in that rules exceptions do not allow adjustment of the skills.

          Yup, the "rule changer" and "skill substitute" are still there.  For example, I was planning to have stunts that allow "sniper" types to use Expert for ranged shots, instead of Warrior.
           

          This is all I feel comfortable discussing at this time on this thread as I do not wish intentions to blow up in my face. I wish you the best of luck as making a new RPG is a great way to scratch an itch.


          Sorry, I didn't really mean to make it a mine-field.  Just to narrow the scope of discussion so that the disucssion didn't get mired in RPG holy wars.

          That said, I already talked myself out of the "Class(es)" Aspect.  WRM doesn't have anything like that, it's all implied from your balance of the "Skills".  And, any other part of it can be done via the "Profession" idea.  The Stunt/Feat things I was going to associate with Classes can be put under Skills (but Species will probably still need to have Stunt/Feat things).
           

        • jughrin
          Well, I m playing in a kinda/sorta OSR game now, and was around when Old School was new and weird, so I ll be happy to comment. :) I m not sure what exactly
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 9, 2013
            Well, I'm playing in a kinda/sorta OSR game now, and was around when Old School was new and weird, so I'll be happy to comment. :) I'm not sure what exactly about the Old-school you're trying to evoke, here. Can you link me to a post or describe it? My first thought is that you might want to look at ICONS as a starting point, rather than generic FATE. (Only $6 on DriveThruRPG, now.) It sounds closer to the structure you're proposing.

            My first specific questions?
            How do the Level scale and spells interact? Heck, how will magic work in general?
            How does the Level scale interact with more static things like doors, locks, walls to be climbed?

            In direct response to the bit quoted below. Having more aspects is generally seen as unwieldy nowadays...as in "I forgot about that one." Other than that, its no biggie, IMO.

            --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, GalacticCmdr wrote:
            > > So. Thoughts? I'm open to constructive criticism, but try to keep it
            > > within the realm of what I'm actually trying to accomplish... the bias for
            > > this project is kind of specific. So, please don't try to
            > > argue-with/dismiss the idea of Classes, or the Character Level scale, or
            > > the slightly more rigid treatment of certain aspects, or dungeon crawls --
            > > they're a requirement of the project. But I definitely want to hear what
            > > people think the consequences of my decisions might be ... like having that
            > > many Aspects (if you include BOTH Species and Profession, that's 8 Aspects,
            > > compared to the 5 from Fate Core). And I've got the equivalent of 8
            > > Refresh in a starting character (I got that that might be ok, based on some
            > > discussion on the list about how Dresden characters start out with a lot
            > > more Refresh/Stunts -- but I'm forcing more than half of those to be spent
            > > in a particular way).
          • James Malaspino
            D&d is a fine game that fits the niche it s aimed at. I don t think there us any anti d&d here, but I too have no idea what kind of feedback and discussion
            Message 5 of 7 , Jan 9, 2013
              D&d is a fine game that fits the niche it's aimed at. I don't think there us any "anti d&d " here, but I too have no idea what kind of feedback and discussion you are looking for.
              You said alot of general things about what you want to add, but very little about the why you want to do it,  what you hope to obtain over standard fate by doing this.
              Given your "new here "comment and phrasing of your original post, I'm suspecting you might be jumping from "skim the PDF, maybe try a game" straight to "make a whole new system. If you are looking for a more crunchy d20 with aspects, then start there, but regardless, you should have a firm understanding of whatever system you are trying to use as your foundation or you are going to wind up with an unworkable mess

              From: John Rudd
              Sent: ‎1/‎9/‎2013 9:47 AM
              To: FateRPG@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [FateRPG] My own brand of FATE

               



              On Wed, Jan 9, 2013 at 6:28 AM, GalacticCmdr <galacticcmdr@...> wrote:
              Okay. Given the tone of the last paragraph and your previous emails I would feel more comfortable discussing this if you outlined areas where you are willing to take criticism (constructive or otherwise). I am more than willing to offer my thoughts, but I am hesitant to jump into a conversation that looks like a prickly minefield.

              Not so much a prickly minefield as ... I'm new here, and I don't know how "anti-D&D" things are.  I want criticisms to be agnostic about that -- I'm not wanting to debate "is an OSR/0eD&D focus interesting/appropriate/cool/etc.", or the merits of 0e/OSR, or anything like that.

              I know that there's an emphasis in FATE on "focusing on awesome" and that seems to me to be almost like "focusing on cinematic action type fiction".  Which is fine, I don't mind that at all... but that's not really how I'd describe OSR.  I don't want to bog the discussion down in the merits of either of those flavors.


              So, I will do my best to step gingerly.

              1) What dice method? 4dF, Opposed d6s, d6-d6, etc?

              I'm not tying it to a specific dice mechanic.  I've actually worked out a chart of results that makes it easy to use d%, 3d6, and a few other methods as "drop in replacements" for 4dF, keeping the probabilities as close to 4dF as possible.
               

              2) Given the small and rigid nature of the skills - do Stunts still retain the ability to add a new feature to an existing skill? You mentioned that stunts cannot provide the specialty bonus (+2), instead only allowing the general (+1) bonus - but otherwise stunts work the same as core.

              Everything except the +2/+1 bonus -- that got moved to Aptitudes.  Which you could say are "cheaper Stunts, focused just on the +1 bonus".
               

              In the Dec4 FateCore drop under Stunts - it allows for Stunts to create a rules exception - basically allowing the movement on one feature of a skill to another skill. So, I could get a stunt that lets me put spell casting under my Fighting skill - call it War Wizard or something like that. It even fits a narration of a character that knows just a bit of "combat" magic, but none of the other arcane stuff.

              If this is not intended then maybe somewhere around section 4-6 put in that rules exceptions do not allow adjustment of the skills.

              Yup, the "rule changer" and "skill substitute" are still there.  For example, I was planning to have stunts that allow "sniper" types to use Expert for ranged shots, instead of Warrior.
               

              This is all I feel comfortable discussing at this time on this thread as I do not wish intentions to blow up in my face. I wish you the best of luck as making a new RPG is a great way to scratch an itch.


              Sorry, I didn't really mean to make it a mine-field.  Just to narrow the scope of discussion so that the disucssion didn't get mired in RPG holy wars.

              That said, I already talked myself out of the "Class(es)" Aspect.  WRM doesn't have anything like that, it's all implied from your balance of the "Skills".  And, any other part of it can be done via the "Profession" idea.  The Stunt/Feat things I was going to associate with Classes can be put under Skills (but Species will probably still need to have Stunt/Feat things).
               

            • Leonard Balsera
              ... Cool! Revised Extras is going to have a section in it about using skills for super-high levels of niche protection like this, so yay for parallel
              Message 6 of 7 , Jan 11, 2013
                On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 8:48 PM, John Rudd <johnkzin@...> wrote:
                > 1) Skills -- inspired by WRM/RAG, there will be six:

                Cool! Revised Extras is going to have a section in it about using
                skills for super-high levels of niche protection like this, so yay for
                parallel development. My inspiration came from Cyberpunk 2020, but
                it's the same idea.

                > 2) Add a new scale: Character Level.

                Simple and flavorful; I dig, given the conceits. I considered
                something like it for Dresden Files, and given the way the books have
                gone lately, almost wish I had pulled the trigger on that.

                > ii) Compels -- the "compel" flip-side of an Invoke. Things you know can be used against you, without any quibbling. It's part of the definition of that Class or Species or whatever. Again, free-form/non-defined forms of compel are still possible, these are just the ones you can count on.

                I would tread carefully here - implementations of this sort run a
                danger of turning into a very predictable laundry list of stuff that's
                going to happen every adventure, which can get old with a quickness.
                If a guaranteed compel for every dwarf is "hatred of elves", in a few
                months everyone's going to be like, "we know, we know, they hate
                elves, get on with it".

                Not as much of a problem if you're cycling aspects on and off your
                sheet, or if there's a way to alter some of those guaranteed compels
                as a character develops.

                Also, as presented, I don't understand what the difference is between
                a Feat and a Free Invoke for one of these rigid aspects you have. If a
                Feat gives a narrow application for the aspect that doesn't cost a
                fate point, isn't that the same as a Free Invoke?

                > Slightly more than Fate Core specifies, but some of them are merely elaborations of the "High Concept".

                In your text, you'll want some advice on dealing with overlap of
                meaning between aspects, if this is the case. As a potentially crappy
                example, if I have "Fighter" and then I have "Mercenary", when would I
                ever invoke the former compared to the latter?

                In other words, I wonder if you really can have your cake and eat it
                too with allowing both freeform interpretation of aspects and these
                other, more narrow uses.

                > 9) I want to write up some language about "Players always roll"

                Player-facing rolls as a hard rule is the bomb diggity.

                > 10) "Professions"

                I'm concerned about redundancy here, for obvious reasons, without
                seeing precisely how you might implement this.

                I'm also concerned with the bookkeeping on these pre-defined invokes
                and compels. If I've got a Class, a Race, a Setting, a Culture, and a
                Profession, and each of those has two invokes and two compels
                pre-defined, then there's a list of twenty things, not easily
                abbreviated, that I have to keep track of at any given moment of play.
                I see a lot of potential to forget or overlook that, which is to my
                detriment as a player.

                On the other hand, people play Rolemaster, so maybe I don't know what
                I'm talking about. :)

                --
                Leonard Balsera, Fate System Developer for Evil Hat Productions
                lbalsera@...
                www.evilhat.com
                https://www.facebook.com/EvilHatProductions
              • afategm
                I know it s a little OT, but how would you have done levels in dresden, any chance it might be put out as an optional errata kinda thing like Fred s rules for
                Message 7 of 7 , Jan 11, 2013
                  I know it's a little OT, but how would you have done levels in dresden, any chance it might be put out as an optional errata kinda thing like Fred's rules for using a gridmap with zones?

                  --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Leonard Balsera wrote:
                  >
                  > On Tue, Jan 8, 2013 at 8:48 PM, John Rudd wrote:
                  > > 1) Skills -- inspired by WRM/RAG, there will be six:
                  >
                  > Cool! Revised Extras is going to have a section in it about using
                  > skills for super-high levels of niche protection like this, so yay for
                  > parallel development. My inspiration came from Cyberpunk 2020, but
                  > it's the same idea.
                  >
                  > > 2) Add a new scale: Character Level.
                  >
                  > Simple and flavorful; I dig, given the conceits. I considered
                  > something like it for Dresden Files, and given the way the books have
                  > gone lately, almost wish I had pulled the trigger on that.
                  >
                  > > ii) Compels -- the "compel" flip-side of an Invoke. Things you know can be used against you, without any quibbling. It's part of the definition of that Class or Species or whatever. Again, free-form/non-defined forms of compel are still possible, these are just the ones you can count on.
                  >
                  > I would tread carefully here - implementations of this sort run a
                  > danger of turning into a very predictable laundry list of stuff that's
                  > going to happen every adventure, which can get old with a quickness.
                  > If a guaranteed compel for every dwarf is "hatred of elves", in a few
                  > months everyone's going to be like, "we know, we know, they hate
                  > elves, get on with it".
                  >
                  > Not as much of a problem if you're cycling aspects on and off your
                  > sheet, or if there's a way to alter some of those guaranteed compels
                  > as a character develops.
                  >
                  > Also, as presented, I don't understand what the difference is between
                  > a Feat and a Free Invoke for one of these rigid aspects you have. If a
                  > Feat gives a narrow application for the aspect that doesn't cost a
                  > fate point, isn't that the same as a Free Invoke?
                  >
                  > > Slightly more than Fate Core specifies, but some of them are merely elaborations of the "High Concept".
                  >
                  > In your text, you'll want some advice on dealing with overlap of
                  > meaning between aspects, if this is the case. As a potentially crappy
                  > example, if I have "Fighter" and then I have "Mercenary", when would I
                  > ever invoke the former compared to the latter?
                  >
                  > In other words, I wonder if you really can have your cake and eat it
                  > too with allowing both freeform interpretation of aspects and these
                  > other, more narrow uses.
                  >
                  > > 9) I want to write up some language about "Players always roll"
                  >
                  > Player-facing rolls as a hard rule is the bomb diggity.
                  >
                  > > 10) "Professions"
                  >
                  > I'm concerned about redundancy here, for obvious reasons, without
                  > seeing precisely how you might implement this.
                  >
                  > I'm also concerned with the bookkeeping on these pre-defined invokes
                  > and compels. If I've got a Class, a Race, a Setting, a Culture, and a
                  > Profession, and each of those has two invokes and two compels
                  > pre-defined, then there's a list of twenty things, not easily
                  > abbreviated, that I have to keep track of at any given moment of play.
                  > I see a lot of potential to forget or overlook that, which is to my
                  > detriment as a player.
                  >
                  > On the other hand, people play Rolemaster, so maybe I don't know what
                  > I'm talking about. :)
                  >
                  > --
                  > Leonard Balsera, Fate System Developer for Evil Hat Productions
                  > lbalsera@...
                  > www.evilhat.com
                  > https://www.facebook.com/EvilHatProductions
                  >
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