Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [FateRPG] Ranty goodness, plus Ars Magica-Fudge conversion

Expand Messages
  • Darren Hill
    On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:22:07 +1000, Kyle Schuant ... Actually, no. It wasn t just because it was a derivative work. The objection was
    Message 1 of 8 , Aug 18, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      On Wed, 18 Aug 2004 12:22:07 +1000, Kyle Schuant <kas@...>
      wrote:

      > --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, lance dyas <lancelot@i...> wrote:
      >> > > Kyle Schuant wrote a nice interpretation of "Ars Magica's" magic
      >> with a
      >> > fudge view on the fudge/group list and it was written so professional
      >> > sounding the that the list managers removed it.. thinking he might
      >> have
      >> > hoisted the text.... Rather pissed me off ;-)
      >
      > I don't know about "professional." The Fudge list owners had concerns
      > about copyright violations, because it was a "derivative work." Though
      > apparently having "derivative works" based on Matrix and Buffy, etc,
      > isn't a problem.

      Actually, no. It wasn't just because it was a derivative work. The
      objection was because it looked (wrongly, I believe, but an understandable
      mistake) like the document had copied sections of the Ars Magica rules.

      > That led to a discussion of copyright issues, in which Ann Dupuis
      > told us she'd like to see a Fudge disclaimer, or link thereto, in every
      > email to the list.

      IIRC that's a substantial bit of distortion, and in any case, I don't
      think this list is a place for you to vent your spleen. You could have
      answered the query without it. But I'm not a moderator, so what do I know.

      Darren
    • Iago
      ... Well, speaking as one of the moderators of the phoenyx Fudge list, though not as one who captained that particular issue, and also speaking entirely on
      Message 2 of 8 , Aug 18, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Kyle Schuant wrote:

        > --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, lance dyas <lancelot@i...>
        > wrote:
        > > > Kyle Schuant wrote a nice interpretation of "Ars
        > > > Magica's" magic with a fudge view on the fudge/group
        > > > list and it was written so professional sounding the
        > > > that the list managers removed it.. thinking he might
        > > > have hoisted the text.... Rather pissed me off ;-)
        >
        > I don't know about "professional." The Fudge list owners
        > had concerns about copyright violations, because it was a
        > "derivative work." Though apparently having "derivative
        > works" based on Matrix and Buffy, etc, isn't a problem.

        Well, speaking as one of the moderators of the phoenyx
        Fudge list, though not as one who 'captained' that
        particular issue, and also speaking entirely on the basis
        of faulty, unresearched recollection (I have a swiss
        cheese memory), I'll say this much:

        My take on it is that the problem was the 'publication' of
        the Ars derivative work using the Phoenyx systems (the
        mailing list, possibly other tools available there, such
        as the fudge wiki). The Cravenses didn't make the decision
        to do the derivative work, but to some extent 'publishing'
        it through their systems potentially flings some
        responsibility for it onto them.

        Kyle, if you published it on your own website and posted a
        link to it, thus assuming the risk yourself, at least for
        *my* part of things, it'd all be kosher.

        I do have some disagreements with the extremity of
        response that occurred in general, but that was sorta
        outside my scope. :>

        > That led to a discussion of copyright issues, in which Ann
        > Dupuis told us she'd like to see a Fudge disclaimer, or
        > link thereto, in every email to the list.

        Which I thought was ludicrous then, and I think is
        ludicrous now, though posting a *link* to a page with the
        disclaimer on it seemed like a decent compromise on that
        particular (if somewhat misguided) line of thinking.

        > That, combined with Dupuis' failure to respond to many
        > people's queries about obtaining a licence to use Fudge
        > for their intended publications, convinced me that Fudge
        > will never amount to anything. How popular would GURPS be
        > if it had two worldbooks, the Compendium, and the Magic
        > book out? GGG were obviously more concerned with
        > protecting the copyrights of current works, than producing
        > new works. So I took my hopes of using their excellent
        > system, and binned them.

        GURPS had a hell of a lot more funding going into it
        (e.g., the sucess of many Steve Jackson games prior to
        that point) than Ann's personal pocketbook ever will.
        Fudge (or more to the point, Grey Ghost) is a
        one-and-a-half person show.

        If you have tens of thousands of dollars of your own money
        you're willing to spend on an at-best break-even business,
        by all means, do so, and then have the grounds on which to
        complain about what Ann can or can't do.

        I for one am opting for patience and the occasional wry
        shaking of my head at worst. I certainly don't have the
        money to put where my mouth is (I have a house first, and
        a love of gaming second, when it comes down to it), and
        Rob and I probably have a lack of time similar to Ann's,
        and you've seen how fast _we've_ been able to get things
        done with Fate.

        I feel for the lady.

        All that said:

        > The following uses Fudge dice, and Fudge trait level
        > descriptors. I think FATE would work better for this.
        > "House Flambeau" or whatever would be a fine Aspect for a
        > character.

        Looks awesome -- thanks for sharing it with this list! :)

        --
        Fred Hicks * "Curse you iago and your fast fingers!" - Rob Donoghue
        Co-Author of Fate - Managing Editor of Fudge Factor - The 'fan' in fanatic
        Fate RPG * http://www.faterpg.com/ Fudge Factor * http://www.fudgefactor.org/
        Plink * http://www.rainlikely.com/ Jim Butcher * http://www.jim-butcher.com/
      • Iago
        ... Despite the fact that I just sent out a response to it, yeah, Darren s probably right. Expect me to shut down the conversation if it heads in a war-like
        Message 3 of 8 , Aug 18, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Darren Hill wrote:

          > IIRC that's a substantial bit of distortion, and in any
          > case, I don't think this list is a place for you to vent
          > your spleen. You could have answered the query without it.
          > But I'm not a moderator, so what do I know.

          Despite the fact that I just sent out a response to it,
          yeah, Darren's probably right. Expect me to shut down the
          conversation if it heads in a war-like direction, and to
          want it to try to stick to a generally Fate-themed
          relevancy.

          --
          Fred Hicks * "Curse you iago and your fast fingers!" - Rob Donoghue
          Co-Author of Fate - Managing Editor of Fudge Factor - The 'fan' in fanatic
          Fate RPG * http://www.faterpg.com/ Fudge Factor * http://www.fudgefactor.org/
          Plink * http://www.rainlikely.com/ Jim Butcher * http://www.jim-butcher.com/
        • Jarrod Henry
          ... queries about obtaining a licence to use Fudge for their intended publications, convinced me that Fudge will never amount to anything. How popular would
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 18, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, "Kyle Schuant" <kas@a...> wrote:
            > That, combined with Dupuis' failure to respond to many people's
            queries about obtaining a licence to use Fudge for their intended
            publications, convinced me that Fudge will never amount to anything.
            How popular would GURPS be if it had two worldbooks, the Compendium,
            and the Magic book out? GGG were obviously more concerned with
            protecting the copyrights of current works, than producing new works.
            So I took my hopes of using their excellent system, and binned them.

            Time out. Just a few points of order. One, Ann has always been more
            than helpful in clarification off list of rights, licenses, and the
            like to me. I'm not the only one she has told that I could consider
            Fudge as OGL, and if worse came to worse, I have emails from her
            backing that statement up in what amounts to be a handshake agreement.
            So.. I don't think she likes making blanket statements on the list,
            but she's always been quite approachable for me off list.

            Two.. Gurps is a very bad assessmnet here. SJGames is a million times
            more restrictive than GGG could ever be. Have you ever tried to write
            or sell a Gurps book? Hint. Don't. SJ will sue you or at least send
            more than enough C&D orders to you. At least that was SOP when I was
            considering what system to use.

            So.. just thought I'd correct those two things. GURPS is NOT an open
            system like Fudge is, or like I suspect Fred and Rob wish to make Fate
            (correct me if I'm wrong, please). It's not even close.

            Jarrod
          • Iago
            ... Same here, and I ve approached her in a number of different contexts -- for contributions to Fudge Factor, regarding Fudge licensing, etc -- and, sure,
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 18, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              On Wed, 18 Aug 2004, Jarrod Henry wrote:

              > Time out. Just a few points of order. One, Ann has always
              > been more than helpful in clarification off list of
              > rights, licenses, and the like to me. I'm not the only one
              > she has told that I could consider Fudge as OGL, and if
              > worse came to worse, I have emails from her backing that
              > statement up in what amounts to be a handshake agreement.
              > So.. I don't think she likes making blanket statements on
              > the list, but she's always been quite approachable for me
              > off list.

              Same here, and I've approached her in a number of
              different contexts -- for contributions to Fudge Factor,
              regarding Fudge licensing, etc -- and, sure, she's been
              slow on occasion, but it's usually explainable (I had
              stomach flu, I came down with a major case of the GenCon,
              etc).

              > Two.. Gurps is a very bad assessmnet here. SJGames is a
              > million times more restrictive than GGG could ever be.

              And occasionally actually makes money, a rarity in this
              industry.

              > So.. just thought I'd correct those two things. GURPS is
              > NOT an open system like Fudge is, or like I suspect Fred
              > and Rob wish to make Fate (correct me if I'm wrong,
              > please). It's not even close.

              We're waiting on a few things:

              * Official word from Ann -- she hopes to get things run
              past the lawyer (what costs money) in the next few
              weeks -- that the text of Fudge is OGL'ed;

              * Time. Which also includes, getting the next rev of Fate
              put to bed. Way too much Life has been happening to
              make that speedy or even less-than-glacial.

              But, yeah, Fate's going to go OGL once we *can* get that
              time, both in a Fudge-free and a Fudge-having way, I
              believe.

              --
              Fred Hicks * "Curse you iago and your fast fingers!" - Rob Donoghue
              Co-Author of Fate - Managing Editor of Fudge Factor - The 'fan' in fanatic
              Fate RPG * http://www.faterpg.com/ Fudge Factor * http://www.fudgefactor.org/
              Plink * http://www.rainlikely.com/ Jim Butcher * http://www.jim-butcher.com/
            • kyle3054
              ... I have no idea what Dupuis can and can t do. All I m saying is, 1) Universal systems with large numbers of worldbooks sell okay (GURPS, Hero, etc) 2)
              Message 6 of 8 , Aug 18, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Iago <iago@i...> wrote:
                > GURPS had a hell of a lot more funding going into it
                > (e.g., the sucess of many Steve Jackson games prior to
                > that point) than Ann's personal pocketbook ever will.
                > Fudge (or more to the point, Grey Ghost) is a
                > one-and-a-half person show.
                >
                > If you have tens of thousands of dollars of your own money
                > you're willing to spend on an at-best break-even business,
                > by all means, do so, and then have the grounds on which to
                > complain about what Ann can or can't do.

                I have no idea what Dupuis can and can't do. All I'm saying is,

                1) Universal systems with large numbers of worldbooks sell okay
                (GURPS, Hero, etc)

                2) Universal systems withOUT large numbers of worldbooks sell badly,
                by comparison.

                3) Therefore, to sell well, and be played widely, Fudge needs more
                than two worldbooks.

                4) Several people writing to enquire into getting a commercial
                licence to write Fudge worldbooks have had their messages ignored.

                (If Dupuis writes a book, it costs her time and money. If _someone
                else_ writes one, it costs her nothing, though it could be
                embarassing if it turned out to be crap, or offensive in some manner.
                That's what editing is for, I guess.)

                5) Given all this, I see Fudge as not likely to be that widely played
                and popular, which is a great pity.

                I'm dealing in the facts that are relevant. How much money or time
                Dupuis can put into it is none of my business. Whether she answers
                our emails is my business. Whether I or anyone else can get a
                commercial licence for it is my business.Whether I then go on to
                write a worldbook using Fudge, or something else, is also my
                business.

                I'm not complaining about what she can or can't do, I'm explaining
                that there's a cause and effect relationship here. Whose fault the
                cause is, is irrelevant. The cause is problems getting commercial
                licence for Fudge. The result is writing my own system for my
                worldbooks. And I'm not the only one in this position.

                So, Dupuis' ignoring her emails has a good end result for gamers. It
                promotes diversity in gaming. Bad result for her and Fudge, of
                course, but good for gamers. There's no moral judgments here, mate.
                Just cause and effect.

                Cheers,
                Kyle
              • Jarrod Henry
                ... That s debatable. According to many game retailers, they can t sell a number of their GURPS books but have to keep a number of them in stock to keep SJ
                Message 7 of 8 , Aug 19, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  kyle3054 wrote:

                  >
                  > I have no idea what Dupuis can and can't do. All I'm saying is,
                  >
                  > 1) Universal systems with large numbers of worldbooks sell okay
                  > (GURPS, Hero, etc)
                  >
                  That's debatable. According to many game retailers, they can't sell a
                  number of their GURPS books but have to keep a number of them in stock
                  to keep SJ Games happy. I know my FLGS (which has my best friend
                  running it) doesn't sell GURPS at all, except, on rare occasions, to
                  me. The New 4th Edition might not sell at all there. He hasn't
                  decided yet.

                  > 2) Universal systems withOUT large numbers of worldbooks sell badly,
                  > by comparison.


                  Fudge is a unique case. Fudge is free. Fudge/Fate / etc don't NEED to
                  sell. There is no reason to sell a free product unless you add value on
                  to it.

                  > 3) Therefore, to sell well, and be played widely, Fudge needs more
                  > than two worldbooks.

                  Fudge has more than two worldbooks/conversions. The problem isn't world
                  books, the problem is that GMs don't use RPG books for basis. Fred has
                  an awesome Ambre game lined up... he uses Amber books and his own
                  rules. Fudge GMs tend to be more of the "lets build it ourselves" and
                  less of the "let's see what this book here tells us to do."

                  > 4) Several people writing to enquire into getting a commercial
                  > licence to write Fudge worldbooks have had their messages ignored.

                  Incorrect. I am one such person. I am a professional game designer
                  (kinda.. haven't really decided to jump into the market yet.) No one I
                  have talked to who has emailed her at ghostgames@... has gone
                  without an answer. Occasionally, those answers do take time. But not
                  one of them has been ignored, and if a follow up email is sent, it is
                  routinely answered immediately.

                  > (If Dupuis writes a book, it costs her time and money. If _someone
                  > else_ writes one, it costs her nothing, though it could be
                  > embarassing if it turned out to be crap, or offensive in some manner.
                  > That's what editing is for, I guess.)
                  >
                  > 5) Given all this, I see Fudge as not likely to be that widely played
                  > and popular, which is a great pity.
                  >
                  Okay.. then you go on to blame Ann Dupris for Fudge not being big.
                  Here's the problem with that. I have permission to publish. I'm not
                  publishing. DO you know why? It has nothing to do with Ann, Grey
                  Ghost, or Fudge. It has to do with penetration. We're in an over
                  saturated RPG market, with a down economy, using a Free RPG system,
                  targeting people who need a RPG or who need a world. As for an RPG,
                  we're the "new kid" on the block. We're the one nobody's seen before.
                  As for a world.. our GMs generally home brew and don't use world books.

                  To publish now is suicidal. It has nothing to do with Ann Dupris. It
                  has to do with the fact that I'm NOT dumping a ton of money into a
                  failure, and right now, to publish hard cover a RPG of any type on an
                  unknown label is a waste of time.

                  SJGames has money. Heroes games has money. They hire people to write
                  their books, pay them afterwards, and that's spiffy. They can stop the
                  project at any time they want. When you write for SJGames or Heroes
                  games, you're not writing YOUR book, you're writing THEIRS.

                  When you write a Fudge game under the OGL, it's all yours. It's not
                  Ann's. She has let us go with it.

                  Jarrod

                  >
                  >
                  > Fate * http://www.faterpg.com/
                  >
                  >
                  > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
                  > ADVERTISEMENT
                  > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129ee0klf/M=298184.5285298.6392945.3001176/D=groups/S=1705346811:HM/EXP=1092981992/A=2319501/R=0/SIG=11tq0u909/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60185353&partid=5285298>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
                  >
                  > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FateRPG/
                  >
                  > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > FateRPG-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > <mailto:FateRPG-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                  >
                  > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                  >
                  >
                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.