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RE: [FateRPG] Zird's Magic

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  • James Malaspino
    I agree, Brett s possible write up is nice & all, but it still somewhat has the potential to fall into the same pits Lenny mentioned :(. As much as I enjoy
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 13, 2012
      I agree, Brett's possible write up is  nice & all, but it still somewhat has the potential to fall into the same pits Lenny mentioned :(. As much as I enjoy running Dresden, a caster player who doesn't. Self check the "shouldn't be better than kybkfy/swordthiefery/etc kinda thing is pretty much playing a different game entirely given attack, defense, investigation, etc skills are all rolled into apex skills.  There are ways around it with immunities & things, but the chasm itself tends to have an effect on the players with the "I'm just his sidekick & the fm is throwing  me the occasional bone, big whoop" mentality setting in :(. So yayyy Lenny, nohate ☆彡

      From: Brett Ritter
      Sent: ‎12/‎13/‎2012 11:06 AM
      To: FateRPG@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [FateRPG] Zird's Magic

       

      On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 7:50 AM, Leonard Balsera <lbalsera@...> wrote:
      So, y'all are going to hate me, but for the purpose of writing the
      examples, Zird's magic works like this:

      The paragraph that follows is full of win.  Include in Core please.

      That said, such a thing won't work for most groups/settings, so go ahead with the plans for other examples in the Extras chapter :)

      --
      Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
      swiftone@...

    • Alden Strock
      Might it make sense to add that paragraph to page 281, as an example under the when you don t need extras? Would folks find that helpful? ... -- Alden
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 13, 2012
        Might it make sense to add that paragraph to page 281, as an example under the "when you don't need extras?"

        Would folks find that helpful?

        On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 10:50 AM, Leonard Balsera <lbalsera@...> wrote:
         

        So, y'all are going to hate me, but for the purpose of writing the
        examples, Zird's magic works like this:

        "Uh, we have a wizard character, so we want him to do magic, but we
        don't really want magic to have more power to solve problems than
        Landon's martial arts or Cynere's swordthiefery (yes that's the right
        word i swear don't look at me like that), so let's just say his Lore
        skill can do more stuff for him than it does for other people and bake
        it into the skill writeup. And he should probably keep that high
        concept aspect that says he knows magic."

        Like, there's no magic "system" for him, per se. Instead, there's a
        discussion about what we want to constitute normal action in the game.
        Zird doing a ritual isn't any different than Cynere spending a week on
        building a cover story before going to the Thyferran Royal Ball, you
        know? It's just how these people solve the various problems that
        they're spotlighted to solve.

        So, what examples of magic show up in the revised Extras chapter
        probably won't be Zird's magic, because that's not really the best
        example of cool shit you can do. It's really more of an example of not
        really needing Extras, which would be contrary to the point of that
        chapter - if you're mining it for material, you've already made up
        your mind that you want more of a mechanical backstop behind some of
        the stuff in your game.

        --
        Leonard Balsera, Fate System Developer for Evil Hat Productions
        lbalsera@...
        www.evilhat.com
        https://www.facebook.com/EvilHatProductions




        --
        Alden


      • Charles & Jennifer
        Honestly, I have little interest in using Extra s. I liked Zird s magic because it was flavorful, fun but not all powerful.I was more interested in the
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 13, 2012
          Honestly, I have little interest in using Extra's. I liked Zird's magic because it was flavorful, fun but not all powerful.I was more interested in the examples given than anything else.

          Unfortunately, I can not seem to piece together a cohesive view of how Zird's Magic is handled.

          I know he put on a fireworks display, engaged in a arcane battle with Gornak, protected an inn with an anti-zombie ritual and blasted three grunts using magic - so that suggests something a bit more direct that Gandalf's magic. What I keep wondering is how any o this is handled.

          So far it seems that the Lore skill, combined with an "I'm a wizard" aspect allows one to attack, defend, and distract in addition to all that Lore already does. What are the limitations placed upon Zird?
          Can he replicate the effect of any other skill by doing magic with Lore? What magic coolness is Zird capable of (I know firework displays, physical attacks and anti-zombi magic are a few)? Does this not make Lore too powerful?

          Charles

          --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Leonard Balsera <lbalsera@...> wrote:
          >
          > So, y'all are going to hate me, but for the purpose of writing the
          > examples, Zird's magic works like this:
          >
          > "Uh, we have a wizard character, so we want him to do magic, but we
          > don't really want magic to have more power to solve problems than
          > Landon's martial arts or Cynere's swordthiefery (yes that's the right
          > word i swear don't look at me like that), so let's just say his Lore
          > skill can do more stuff for him than it does for other people and bake
          > it into the skill writeup. And he should probably keep that high
          > concept aspect that says he knows magic."
          >
          > Like, there's no magic "system" for him, per se. Instead, there's a
          > discussion about what we want to constitute normal action in the game.
          > Zird doing a ritual isn't any different than Cynere spending a week on
          > building a cover story before going to the Thyferran Royal Ball, you
          > know? It's just how these people solve the various problems that
          > they're spotlighted to solve.
          >
          > So, what examples of magic show up in the revised Extras chapter
          > probably won't be Zird's magic, because that's not really the best
          > example of cool shit you can do. It's really more of an example of not
          > really needing Extras, which would be contrary to the point of that
          > chapter - if you're mining it for material, you've already made up
          > your mind that you want more of a mechanical backstop behind some of
          > the stuff in your game.
          >
          > --
          > Leonard Balsera, Fate System Developer for Evil Hat Productions
          > lbalsera@...
          > www.evilhat.com
          > https://www.facebook.com/EvilHatProductions
          >
        • GalacticCmdr
          I would imagine it would entail the use of a Stunt. Say, if you had a Stunt that required an aspect for purchase. This Stunt would grant the ability for Lore
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 14, 2012
            I would imagine it would entail the use of a Stunt. Say, if you had a Stunt that required an aspect for purchase. This Stunt would grant the ability for Lore to use its actions with the "arcane" modifier. You could attack, defend, advantage, and overcome using "magic". There are several other replacement stunts running around as examples. Since this Stunt requires an Aspect it can be a bit more punchy that a Stunt that has no prerequisite.

            At that point Zird could probably work like a mini-Dresdenesque-style of magic. Magic is like a toolbox - you can do things with it. What kind of things? Magic things.

            Possibly you could add another skill only available to people with the Magic Stunt. This skill called "Ritual" would cover the really esoteric stuff - like ripping holes in the dimensions, dropping city-consuming winter storms.

            Sure, you could do dimensional magic by simply having the wizard Overcome the barrier - or Attack the Barrier (who can attack back).

            Just my take,


            Chip


            On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 12:28 AM, Charles & Jennifer <cjnodell@...> wrote:
             

            Honestly, I have little interest in using Extra's. I liked Zird's magic because it was flavorful, fun but not all powerful.I was more interested in the examples given than anything else.

            Unfortunately, I can not seem to piece together a cohesive view of how Zird's Magic is handled.

            I know he put on a fireworks display, engaged in a arcane battle with Gornak, protected an inn with an anti-zombie ritual and blasted three grunts using magic - so that suggests something a bit more direct that Gandalf's magic. What I keep wondering is how any o this is handled.

            So far it seems that the Lore skill, combined with an "I'm a wizard" aspect allows one to attack, defend, and distract in addition to all that Lore already does. What are the limitations placed upon Zird?
            Can he replicate the effect of any other skill by doing magic with Lore? What magic coolness is Zird capable of (I know firework displays, physical attacks and anti-zombi magic are a few)? Does this not make Lore too powerful?

            Charles



            --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Leonard Balsera <lbalsera@...> wrote:
            >
            > So, y'all are going to hate me, but for the purpose of writing the
            > examples, Zird's magic works like this:
            >
            > "Uh, we have a wizard character, so we want him to do magic, but we
            > don't really want magic to have more power to solve problems than
            > Landon's martial arts or Cynere's swordthiefery (yes that's the right
            > word i swear don't look at me like that), so let's just say his Lore
            > skill can do more stuff for him than it does for other people and bake
            > it into the skill writeup. And he should probably keep that high
            > concept aspect that says he knows magic."
            >
            > Like, there's no magic "system" for him, per se. Instead, there's a
            > discussion about what we want to constitute normal action in the game.
            > Zird doing a ritual isn't any different than Cynere spending a week on
            > building a cover story before going to the Thyferran Royal Ball, you
            > know? It's just how these people solve the various problems that
            > they're spotlighted to solve.
            >
            > So, what examples of magic show up in the revised Extras chapter
            > probably won't be Zird's magic, because that's not really the best
            > example of cool shit you can do. It's really more of an example of not
            > really needing Extras, which would be contrary to the point of that
            > chapter - if you're mining it for material, you've already made up
            > your mind that you want more of a mechanical backstop behind some of
            > the stuff in your game.
            >
            > --
            > Leonard Balsera, Fate System Developer for Evil Hat Productions
            > lbalsera@...
            > www.evilhat.com
            > https://www.facebook.com/EvilHatProductions
            >




            --
            “Irreverence is the champion of liberty and its only sure defense. True irreverence is disrespect for another man’s god.” – Mark Twain


          • Fred Hicks
            Yeah, I personally would be inclined to charge Zird a stunt or two for expanding the scope of the Lore skill, but table consensus (which Lenny implied in his
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 14, 2012
              Yeah, I personally would be inclined to charge Zird a stunt or two for expanding the scope of the Lore skill, but table consensus (which Lenny implied in his explanation) is a fine substitute for a specific campaign.

              Fred

              On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 9:39 AM, GalacticCmdr <galacticcmdr@...> wrote:


              I would imagine it would entail the use of a Stunt. Say, if you had a Stunt that required an aspect for purchase. This Stunt would grant the ability for Lore to use its actions with the "arcane" modifier. You could attack, defend, advantage, and overcome using "magic". There are several other replacement stunts running around as examples. Since this Stunt requires an Aspect it can be a bit more punchy that a Stunt that has no prerequisite.

              At that point Zird could probably work like a mini-Dresdenesque-style of magic. Magic is like a toolbox - you can do things with it. What kind of things? Magic things.

              Possibly you could add another skill only available to people with the Magic Stunt. This skill called "Ritual" would cover the really esoteric stuff - like ripping holes in the dimensions, dropping city-consuming winter storms.

              Sure, you could do dimensional magic by simply having the wizard Overcome the barrier - or Attack the Barrier (who can attack back).

              Just my take,


              Chip


              On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 12:28 AM, Charles & Jennifer <cjnodell@...> wrote:
               

              Honestly, I have little interest in using Extra's. I liked Zird's magic because it was flavorful, fun but not all powerful.I was more interested in the examples given than anything else.

              Unfortunately, I can not seem to piece together a cohesive view of how Zird's Magic is handled.

              I know he put on a fireworks display, engaged in a arcane battle with Gornak, protected an inn with an anti-zombie ritual and blasted three grunts using magic - so that suggests something a bit more direct that Gandalf's magic. What I keep wondering is how any o this is handled.

              So far it seems that the Lore skill, combined with an "I'm a wizard" aspect allows one to attack, defend, and distract in addition to all that Lore already does. What are the limitations placed upon Zird?
              Can he replicate the effect of any other skill by doing magic with Lore? What magic coolness is Zird capable of (I know firework displays, physical attacks and anti-zombi magic are a few)? Does this not make Lore too powerful?

              Charles



              --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Leonard Balsera <lbalsera@...> wrote:
              >
              > So, y'all are going to hate me, but for the purpose of writing the
              > examples, Zird's magic works like this:
              >
              > "Uh, we have a wizard character, so we want him to do magic, but we
              > don't really want magic to have more power to solve problems than
              > Landon's martial arts or Cynere's swordthiefery (yes that's the right
              > word i swear don't look at me like that), so let's just say his Lore
              > skill can do more stuff for him than it does for other people and bake
              > it into the skill writeup. And he should probably keep that high
              > concept aspect that says he knows magic."
              >
              > Like, there's no magic "system" for him, per se. Instead, there's a
              > discussion about what we want to constitute normal action in the game.
              > Zird doing a ritual isn't any different than Cynere spending a week on
              > building a cover story before going to the Thyferran Royal Ball, you
              > know? It's just how these people solve the various problems that
              > they're spotlighted to solve.
              >
              > So, what examples of magic show up in the revised Extras chapter
              > probably won't be Zird's magic, because that's not really the best
              > example of cool shit you can do. It's really more of an example of not
              > really needing Extras, which would be contrary to the point of that
              > chapter - if you're mining it for material, you've already made up
              > your mind that you want more of a mechanical backstop behind some of
              > the stuff in your game.
              >
              > --
              > Leonard Balsera, Fate System Developer for Evil Hat Productions
              > lbalsera@...
              > www.evilhat.com
              > https://www.facebook.com/EvilHatProductions
              >




              --
              “Irreverence is the champion of liberty and its only sure defense. True irreverence is disrespect for another man’s god.” – Mark Twain







              --
              Fred Hicks
              Co-President, Evil Hat Productions, LLC - www.evilhat.com
              Freelance Layoutist * Game Publishing Blogger - www.deadlyfredly.com
              For "real time" updates: http://twitter.com/fredhicks http://gplus.to/fredhicks
            • Stuart Broz
              In the rules, this needs more than an implication. This thread is evidence of that. I looked at Zird s character sheet, and didn t see any reference to magic
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 14, 2012
                In the rules, this needs more than an implication. This thread is evidence of that.

                I looked at Zird's character sheet, and didn't see any reference to magic other than an Aspect. I searched the text for references to Zird, found examples of him doing magic but no explanation of how (or even what was rolled - though I might have missed something there), and closed the PDF in frustration.

                Stuart


                On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 10:01 AM, Fred Hicks <evilhat@...> wrote:
                 

                Yeah, I personally would be inclined to charge Zird a stunt or two for expanding the scope of the Lore skill, but table consensus (which Lenny implied in his explanation) is a fine substitute for a specific campaign.


                Fred


                On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 9:39 AM, GalacticCmdr <galacticcmdr@...> wrote:


                I would imagine it would entail the use of a Stunt. Say, if you had a Stunt that required an aspect for purchase. This Stunt would grant the ability for Lore to use its actions with the "arcane" modifier. You could attack, defend, advantage, and overcome using "magic". There are several other replacement stunts running around as examples. Since this Stunt requires an Aspect it can be a bit more punchy that a Stunt that has no prerequisite.

                At that point Zird could probably work like a mini-Dresdenesque-style of magic. Magic is like a toolbox - you can do things with it. What kind of things? Magic things.

                Possibly you could add another skill only available to people with the Magic Stunt. This skill called "Ritual" would cover the really esoteric stuff - like ripping holes in the dimensions, dropping city-consuming winter storms.

                Sure, you could do dimensional magic by simply having the wizard Overcome the barrier - or Attack the Barrier (who can attack back).

                Just my take,


                Chip


                On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 12:28 AM, Charles & Jennifer <cjnodell@...> wrote:
                 

                Honestly, I have little interest in using Extra's. I liked Zird's magic because it was flavorful, fun but not all powerful.I was more interested in the examples given than anything else.

                Unfortunately, I can not seem to piece together a cohesive view of how Zird's Magic is handled.

                I know he put on a fireworks display, engaged in a arcane battle with Gornak, protected an inn with an anti-zombie ritual and blasted three grunts using magic - so that suggests something a bit more direct that Gandalf's magic. What I keep wondering is how any o this is handled.

                So far it seems that the Lore skill, combined with an "I'm a wizard" aspect allows one to attack, defend, and distract in addition to all that Lore already does. What are the limitations placed upon Zird?
                Can he replicate the effect of any other skill by doing magic with Lore? What magic coolness is Zird capable of (I know firework displays, physical attacks and anti-zombi magic are a few)? Does this not make Lore too powerful?

                Charles



                --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Leonard Balsera <lbalsera@...> wrote:
                >
                > So, y'all are going to hate me, but for the purpose of writing the
                > examples, Zird's magic works like this:
                >
                > "Uh, we have a wizard character, so we want him to do magic, but we
                > don't really want magic to have more power to solve problems than
                > Landon's martial arts or Cynere's swordthiefery (yes that's the right
                > word i swear don't look at me like that), so let's just say his Lore
                > skill can do more stuff for him than it does for other people and bake
                > it into the skill writeup. And he should probably keep that high
                > concept aspect that says he knows magic."
                >
                > Like, there's no magic "system" for him, per se. Instead, there's a
                > discussion about what we want to constitute normal action in the game.
                > Zird doing a ritual isn't any different than Cynere spending a week on
                > building a cover story before going to the Thyferran Royal Ball, you
                > know? It's just how these people solve the various problems that
                > they're spotlighted to solve.
                >
                > So, what examples of magic show up in the revised Extras chapter
                > probably won't be Zird's magic, because that's not really the best
                > example of cool shit you can do. It's really more of an example of not
                > really needing Extras, which would be contrary to the point of that
                > chapter - if you're mining it for material, you've already made up
                > your mind that you want more of a mechanical backstop behind some of
                > the stuff in your game.
                >
                > --
                > Leonard Balsera, Fate System Developer for Evil Hat Productions
                > lbalsera@...
                > www.evilhat.com
                > https://www.facebook.com/EvilHatProductions
                >




                --
                “Irreverence is the champion of liberty and its only sure defense. True irreverence is disrespect for another man’s god.” – Mark Twain







                --
                Fred Hicks
                Co-President, Evil Hat Productions, LLC - www.evilhat.com
                Freelance Layoutist * Game Publishing Blogger - www.deadlyfredly.com
                For "real time" updates: http://twitter.com/fredhicks http://gplus.to/fredhicks


              • Fred Hicks
                That will happen. ... -- Fred Hicks Co-President, Evil Hat Productions, LLC - www.evilhat.com Freelance Layoutist * Game Publishing Blogger -
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 14, 2012
                  That will happen.

                  On Fri, Dec 14, 2012 at 10:39 AM, Stuart Broz <zorbtrauts@...> wrote:
                  In the rules, this needs more than an implication.



                  --
                  Fred Hicks
                  Co-President, Evil Hat Productions, LLC - www.evilhat.com
                  Freelance Layoutist * Game Publishing Blogger - www.deadlyfredly.com
                  For "real time" updates: http://twitter.com/fredhicks http://gplus.to/fredhicks
                • Chester Mealer
                  I thought Lenny s post was that there wasn t a cohesive view of how his magic is handled just we don t want an extra and we don t want it to be
                  Message 8 of 17 , Dec 14, 2012
                    I thought Lenny's post was that there wasn't a "cohesive view of how his magic is handled" just "we don't want an extra and we don't want it to be uber-powerful, so it needs to be in line with what can be handled with a plain skill roll. That's why you can't piece one together. 

                    Here's my own reverse engineering:

                    They started with FATE Core.
                    They wrapped FATE Core in a setting in which the lore skill was expanded to provide magical effects (anybody in that setting with a high lore could do magic, whether or not the *characters* of that setting believed it).
                    Zird's player chose Zird to have a high lore so that he would have better odds of success in using lore for the magical effects. 

                    I left out the aspect on purpose because with this interpretation it's relatively the same as any other aspect and not necessary for magic.


                    Chester Mealer



                    On Thu, Dec 13, 2012 at 11:28 PM, Charles & Jennifer <cjnodell@...> wrote:
                     

                    Honestly, I have little interest in using Extra's. I liked Zird's magic because it was flavorful, fun but not all powerful.I was more interested in the examples given than anything else.

                    Unfortunately, I can not seem to piece together a cohesive view of how Zird's Magic is handled.

                    I know he put on a fireworks display, engaged in a arcane battle with Gornak, protected an inn with an anti-zombie ritual and blasted three grunts using magic - so that suggests something a bit more direct that Gandalf's magic. What I keep wondering is how any o this is handled.

                    So far it seems that the Lore skill, combined with an "I'm a wizard" aspect allows one to attack, defend, and distract in addition to all that Lore already does. What are the limitations placed upon Zird?
                    Can he replicate the effect of any other skill by doing magic with Lore? What magic coolness is Zird capable of (I know firework displays, physical attacks and anti-zombi magic are a few)? Does this not make Lore too powerful?

                    Charles



                    --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Leonard Balsera <lbalsera@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > So, y'all are going to hate me, but for the purpose of writing the
                    > examples, Zird's magic works like this:
                    >
                    > "Uh, we have a wizard character, so we want him to do magic, but we
                    > don't really want magic to have more power to solve problems than
                    > Landon's martial arts or Cynere's swordthiefery (yes that's the right
                    > word i swear don't look at me like that), so let's just say his Lore
                    > skill can do more stuff for him than it does for other people and bake
                    > it into the skill writeup. And he should probably keep that high
                    > concept aspect that says he knows magic."
                    >
                    > Like, there's no magic "system" for him, per se. Instead, there's a
                    > discussion about what we want to constitute normal action in the game.
                    > Zird doing a ritual isn't any different than Cynere spending a week on
                    > building a cover story before going to the Thyferran Royal Ball, you
                    > know? It's just how these people solve the various problems that
                    > they're spotlighted to solve.
                    >
                    > So, what examples of magic show up in the revised Extras chapter
                    > probably won't be Zird's magic, because that's not really the best
                    > example of cool shit you can do. It's really more of an example of not
                    > really needing Extras, which would be contrary to the point of that
                    > chapter - if you're mining it for material, you've already made up
                    > your mind that you want more of a mechanical backstop behind some of
                    > the stuff in your game.
                    >
                    > --
                    > Leonard Balsera, Fate System Developer for Evil Hat Productions
                    > lbalsera@...
                    > www.evilhat.com
                    > https://www.facebook.com/EvilHatProductions
                    >


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