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Re: "Create an Advantage" double-tap?

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  • Joe Keller
    From page 74: Free invocations work like normal ones except in two ways: no fate points are exchanged, and you can stack them with a normal invocation for a
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 11, 2012
      From page 74:

      "Free invocations work like normal ones except in two ways: no fate points are exchanged, and you can stack them with a normal invocation for a better bonus. That way, a +2 bonus can become a +4, one reroll could become two rerolls, or you can force someone to deal with a Great (+4) obstacle instead of a Fair (+2). You can also stack multiple free invocations together."

      --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Brett Ritter <swiftone@...> wrote:
      >
      > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 8:49 PM, Thorin <sdjthorin@...> wrote:
      >
      > > When you "Create an Advantage" and succeed with style (pg 142), can you
      > > use your two free invocations right away or must they be used one after the
      > > other?
      >
      >
      > Would you allow a player to spend 2 FP to invoke the same Aspect twice?
      > The answers should be the same.
      >
      > Me, no, I wouldn't. In fact ....p72, "but you cannot invoke the same
      > aspect multiple times on a single roll."
      >
      > --
      > Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
      > swiftone@...
      >
    • TomM
      Hmm, that is a good point. I tend to treat Free Invokes the same as Boosts, and hold them to a more lenient standard than a player actually spending a FATE
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 12, 2012
        Hmm, that is a good point. I tend to treat Free Invokes the same as Boosts, and hold them to a more lenient standard than a player actually spending a FATE point and invoking an Aspect. I may have to rethink that.

        Tom



        --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Brett Ritter <swiftone@...> wrote:
        >
        > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 8:49 PM, Thorin <sdjthorin@...> wrote:
        >
        > > When you "Create an Advantage" and succeed with style (pg 142), can you
        > > use your two free invocations right away or must they be used one after the
        > > other?
        >
        >
        > Would you allow a player to spend 2 FP to invoke the same Aspect twice?
        > The answers should be the same.
        >
        > Me, no, I wouldn't. In fact ....p72, "but you cannot invoke the same
        > aspect multiple times on a single roll."
        >
        > --
        > Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
        > swiftone@...
        >
      • Aaron Stockser
        Hmm... If multiple people can create advantages against the same target setting up that target for a big hit then implementing the rules as Brett described
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 12, 2012
          Hmm...

          If multiple people can create advantages against the same target setting up that target for a "big hit" then implementing the rules as Brett described really diminishes a good roll. 

          Unless the explicit purpose of that rule is to make an Advantage with Style "more lasting" rather than "more effective" I'd rather see the rules clarified to state that Succeeding with Style while Creating an Advantage allows the creation of 2 free invoke Aspects (Zird is so successful in distracting the Giant it is both "Dazed" and "Confused").

          To me that feels more in line with the narrative.


          On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 2:22 AM, TomM <TomMiskey@...> wrote:
           

          Hmm, that is a good point. I tend to treat Free Invokes the same as Boosts, and hold them to a more lenient standard than a player actually spending a FATE point and invoking an Aspect. I may have to rethink that.

          Tom

          --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Brett Ritter <swiftone@...> wrote:


          >
          > On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 8:49 PM, Thorin <sdjthorin@...> wrote:
          >
          > > When you "Create an Advantage" and succeed with style (pg 142), can you
          > > use your two free invocations right away or must they be used one after the
          > > other?
          >
          >
          > Would you allow a player to spend 2 FP to invoke the same Aspect twice?
          > The answers should be the same.
          >
          > Me, no, I wouldn't. In fact ....p72, "but you cannot invoke the same
          > aspect multiple times on a single roll."
          >
          > --
          > Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
          > swiftone@...
          >


        • sk1mble
          Free Invocations can explicitly be stacked. Free invocations work like normal ones except in two ways: no fate points are exchanged, and you can stack them
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 12, 2012
            Free Invocations can explicitly be stacked.

            "Free invocations work like normal ones except in two ways: no fate points are exchanged, and you can stack them with a normal invocation for a better bonus. That way, a +2 bonus can become a +4, one reroll could become two rerolls, or you can force someone to deal with a Great (+4) obstacle instead of a Fair (+2). You can also stack multiple free invocations together."

            p. 74 of Core Fate.
          • Hollis McCray
            ... Ah, now here s the question: Does that mean multiple free invocations from the same aspect, or from different aspects? -- Hollis McCray aka The Fifth
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 12, 2012
              On Tue, Dec 11, 2012 at 11:49 PM, Joe Keller <jkeller87@...> wrote:
               

              From page 74:



              "Free invocations work like normal ones except in two ways: no fate points are exchanged, and you can stack them with a normal invocation for a better bonus. That way, a +2 bonus can become a +4, one reroll could become two rerolls, or you can force someone to deal with a Great (+4) obstacle instead of a Fair (+2). You can also stack multiple free invocations together."

              Ah, now here's the question: Does that mean multiple free invocations from the same aspect, or from different aspects? 
              --
              Hollis McCray
              aka The Fifth Wanderer

              ascensionschild@...

              "GMing is like herding cats. Wet, angry cats who are pumped full of LSD and methamphetamines." - Stolen from some forum sig somewhere
            • Brett Ritter
              ... Given that you can normally stack invocations from different aspects (and it wouldn t have to be mentioned at all here), I believe it s the former and my
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 12, 2012
                On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 6:31 AM, Hollis McCray <ascensionschild@...> wrote:

                "Free invocations work like normal ones except in two ways: no fate points are exchanged, and you can stack them with a normal invocation for a better bonus. That way, a +2 bonus can become a +4, one reroll could become two rerolls, or you can force someone to deal with a Great (+4) obstacle instead of a Fair (+2). You can also stack multiple free invocations together."

                Ah, now here's the question: Does that mean multiple free invocations from the same aspect, or from different aspects? 

                Given that you can normally stack invocations from different aspects (and it wouldn't have to be mentioned at all here), I believe it's the former and my previous opinion is just wrong.

                --
                Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
                swiftone@...
              • sk1mble
                ... from ... Definitely the same Aspect, as long as it s free invocations you re stacking. One primary use of this is to invoke for an obstacle and increase
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 12, 2012
                  --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Hollis McCray <ascensionschild@...> wrote:

                  > Ah, now here's the question: Does that mean multiple free invocations from
                  > the same aspect, or from different aspects?

                  Definitely the same Aspect, as long as it's free invocations you're stacking. One primary use of this is to invoke for an obstacle and increase the rating from +2 to +4 or more if other people can also apply multiple free invocations. Leonard described how his group got them up to +6 or +8 to stop an NPC dead.
                • GalacticCmdr
                  So, free tags stack - could you then spend a single Fate Point on top of the freebies to increase it. Do free tags just not count towards the maximum 1 allowed
                  Message 8 of 17 , Dec 12, 2012
                    So, free tags stack - could you then spend a single Fate Point on top of the freebies to increase it. Do free tags just not count towards the maximum 1 allowed on an aspect?



                    Chip



                    On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 11:15 AM, sk1mble <rbellingham@...> wrote:
                     


                    --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Hollis McCray <ascensionschild@...> wrote:

                    > Ah, now here's the question: Does that mean multiple free invocations from
                    > the same aspect, or from different aspects?

                    Definitely the same Aspect, as long as it's free invocations you're stacking. One primary use of this is to invoke for an obstacle and increase the rating from +2 to +4 or more if other people can also apply multiple free invocations. Leonard described how his group got them up to +6 or +8 to stop an NPC dead.




                    --
                    “Irreverence is the champion of liberty and its only sure defense. True irreverence is disrespect for another man’s god.” – Mark Twain


                  • sk1mble
                    ... of ... You can add a single Fate point to your free invocations for an additional re-roll or +2 bonus.
                    Message 9 of 17 , Dec 12, 2012
                      --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, GalacticCmdr <galacticcmdr@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > So, free tags stack - could you then spend a single Fate Point on top
                      of
                      > the freebies to increase it. Do free tags just not count towards the
                      > maximum 1 allowed on an aspect?

                      You can add a single Fate point to your free invocations for an
                      additional re-roll or +2 bonus.
                    • Thorin
                      ... Free invocations work like normal ones except in two ways: no fate points are exchanged, and you can stack them with a normal invocation for a better
                      Message 10 of 17 , Dec 12, 2012
                        On Page 74:
                        ----------
                        "Free invocations work like normal ones except in two ways: no fate points are exchanged, and you can stack them with a normal invocation for a better bonus.

                        That way, a +2 bonus can become a +4, one reroll could become two rerolls, or you can force someone to deal with a Great (+4) obstacle instead of a Fair (+2).

                        You can also stack multiple free invocations together."
                        ----------

                        I read the above as: "you can stack one free invocation with one normal invocation for a total of +4, or you can re-roll twice, or a combination of the two"

                        So, as an individual, you can only use one free invocation at a time.

                        When it's multiple people creating free invocations, then we are using teamwork.

                        So, going to Teamwork on pg 179, it says:
                        ----------
                        "When you stack advantages, each person takes a create advantage action as usual, and gives whatever free invocations they get to a single character."
                        ----------

                        It does say "invocations" -- note the plural -- so perhaps we are able to use all the free invocations that one character generates at once when using teamwork, but then again, the plural could be for the multiple people.

                        So, it seems to me that by following the normal flow of FATE, we should probably do the following:

                        Each character can only supply one Free Invocation (just like they can only use an Aspect once per action). Which means that the second free invocation is left over to the next action, or available for another team member with an action left to use -- which to me makes some good sense.

                        ----------
                        e.g. Zind's "Flashy Distraction" with style, keeps Tremendor occupied for the duration of 2 actions, allowing Landon to get 2 great hits.

                        Or, if Cynere was also there and still had an action left, then she could take advantage of the second Free Invocation to use against Tremendor.
                        ----------


                        What does everyone think of that?
                      • Brett Ritter
                        ... That doesn t cover the last sentence of the quote: You can also stack multiple free invocations together . Though really, the first part should say
                        Message 11 of 17 , Dec 12, 2012
                          On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 10:55 AM, Thorin <sdjthorin@...> wrote:
                          On Page 74:
                          ----------
                          "Free invocations work like normal ones except in two ways: no fate points are exchanged, and you can stack them with a normal invocation for a better bonus.

                          That way, a +2 bonus can become a +4, one reroll could become two rerolls, or you can force someone to deal with a Great (+4) obstacle instead of a Fair (+2).

                          You can also stack multiple free invocations together."
                          ----------

                          I read the above as: "you can stack one free invocation with one normal invocation for a total of +4, or you can re-roll twice, or a combination of the two"

                          So, as an individual, you can only use one free invocation at a time.

                          That doesn't cover the last sentence of the quote: "You can also stack multiple free invocations together".   Though really, the first part should say "three" ways rather than two if that's correct.

                          --
                          Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
                          swiftone@...
                        • Thorin
                          True, but should that be read as multiple free invocations, from one or more characters, stacked together , or should it be read as one free invocation from
                          Message 12 of 17 , Dec 12, 2012
                            True, but should that be read as "multiple free invocations, from one or more characters, stacked together", or should it be read as "one free invocation from each character, stacked together"?


                            --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Brett Ritter <swiftone@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > That doesn't cover the last sentence of the quote: "You can also stack
                            > multiple free invocations together". Though really, the first part should
                            > say "three" ways rather than two if that's correct.
                            >
                            > --
                            > Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
                            > swiftone@...
                            >
                          • Brett Ritter
                            ... What would be the point in saying that you can get it from multiple characters if you can get non-free from multiple characters...or is that not true? --
                            Message 13 of 17 , Dec 12, 2012
                              On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 11:18 AM, Thorin <sdjthorin@...> wrote:
                              True, but should that be read as "multiple free invocations, from one or more characters, stacked together", or should it be read as "one free invocation from each character, stacked together"?

                              What would be the point in saying that you can get it from multiple characters if you can get non-free from multiple characters...or is that not true?

                              --
                              Brett Ritter / SwiftOne
                              swiftone@...
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