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Re: [FateRPG] cost of doing more than just nuke with magic

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  • J W
    I think you re misunderstanding the extent of aspects. Can you use an aspect you placed via a maneuver to get a free tag? Sure. But that s not the only use
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 31, 2012
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      I think you're misunderstanding the extent of aspects. Can you use an aspect you placed via a maneuver to get a free tag? Sure. But that's not the only use of aspects. Read the death of situational modifiers section in YS207. Basically make up your own. For example, someone throws a fireball at a doorway. Since it has the aspect "on fire", that doorway now has a barrier rating depending on the severity of the fire. If left alone for a few turns that aspect moves from the doorway to the entire room, and eventually the building, doing damage to anyone who stays there. It also may create the "smoke filled" aspect over a few turns, causing a penalty to awareness rolls, and forcing endurance rolls to avoid taking physical stress. Just because situational modifiers aren't printed, doesn't mean they aren't intended. It means that they want you to have the freedom to decide what they should be!


      From: afategm <afategm@...>
      To: FateRPG@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 9:57 PM
      Subject: [FateRPG] cost of doing more than just nuke with magic

       
      I run a dresden game & had a player tell me "it doesn't make any sense for me to ever do anything but nuke because it costs 3 points to perform a maneuver & it gets tagged by someone for 2/reroll." In a way he's right, but I'm not sure what is intended & see potential problems depending on which way I go in regards to it.

      Up until now we have been playing with maneuver costs 3 points, 2 points to hit an entire zone, 1/round duration, etc with those points just going away & not counting towards things like attack/damage/whatever because they are counting towards other stuff like extra duration, hitting entire zones, setting up a maneuver, etc.

      The problem comes up in what happens if I allow those points to count towards other stuff. If it's just you need at least 3 points for a maneuver & any spell with 3 or more points automatically covers everything in a zone at the same time as that needs at least 2 giving you a zonewide 3 point nuke/Dot lasting three rounds plus a taggable aspect. Letting them combine as just a "you must be at least this tall" sort of thing seems ripe for trouble if the player can reliably call up 3+ shifts.
      For simplicity's sake:
      YS251 says "2 shifts of power lets you affect every target in one particular zone you can see (filling the zone with fire instead of shooting fire at one monster). You can go after more than one zone at a time by buying this effect multiple times, so up to four shifts of power allows you to affect all targets in two zones"
      YS251 also says: "1 shift of power increases the weapon rating by one. So if you allocate 4 shifts of power to this, your spell is treated as a weapon 4 attack" with an example that has a single target ray type attack inflicting only stress & making no mention of other zones/aspects from the spell aside from the consequence the opponent takes from the stress.

      YS251 also has a bit about dividing the shifts in a spray type attack against individual targets, but there is no mention about zones/duration even though it's using 5+ shift attacks for example & pretty clearly giving me the impression that those extra bells & whistles like duration, maneuvers, zonewide effect, etc have to be purchased seperately by giving them their own shifts.

      YS252 says "Performing maneuvers is a little trickier than attacking or blocking. By default, pulling off most maneuvers requires 3 shifts of power, but if the target has an appropriate resisting skill rated higher than good (+3), that skill determines the required number of shifts"

      The use of the word "buying" in the YS251 seems to suggest that they just go away, but when it goes on to say that up to 4 shifts allows you to affect targets in two zones making it look like it could be a "you might be this tall" thing... but the maneuver's section is pretty blunt when it says that performing them is trickier than an attack. None of the examples seem to suggest that the other bits are included free either

      Can anyone shed some light on how to adjudicate this? Should there be -any- free overlap? If so, what & why?



    • Nobilis Reed
      This is a VERY important point, one I had missed in my original reading of the rules. Thank you for pointing it out.
      Message 2 of 12 , Nov 1, 2012
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        This is a VERY important point, one I had missed in my original reading of the rules.  Thank you for pointing it out.


        On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 12:06 AM, J W <noisycricket42@...> wrote:
         

        I think you're misunderstanding the extent of aspects. Can you use an aspect you placed via a maneuver to get a free tag? Sure. But that's not the only use of aspects. Read the death of situational modifiers section in YS207. Basically make up your own. For example, someone throws a fireball at a doorway. Since it has the aspect "on fire", that doorway now has a barrier rating depending on the severity of the fire. If left alone for a few turns that aspect moves from the doorway to the entire room, and eventually the building, doing damage to anyone who stays there. It also may create the "smoke filled" aspect over a few turns, causing a penalty to awareness rolls, and forcing endurance rolls to avoid taking physical stress. Just because situational modifiers aren't printed, doesn't mean they aren't intended. It means that they want you to have the freedom to decide what they should be!


      • Lisa Steele
        Another key use of maneuvers is to pile up modifiers against a target that is too tough to hit straight on. -----Original Message----- From: Nobilis Reed Sent:
        Message 3 of 12 , Nov 1, 2012
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          Another key use of maneuvers is to pile up modifiers against a target that is too tough to hit straight on.
          -----Original Message-----
          From: Nobilis Reed
          Sent: Nov 1, 2012 9:38 AM
          To: FateRPG@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [FateRPG] cost of doing more than just nuke with magic



          This is a VERY important point, one I had missed in my original reading of the rules.  Thank you for pointing it out.


          On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 12:06 AM, J W <noisycricket42@...> wrote:
           

          I think you're misunderstanding the extent of aspects. Can you use an aspect you placed via a maneuver to get a free tag? Sure. But that's not the only use of aspects. Read the death of situational modifiers section in YS207. Basically make up your own. For example, someone throws a fireball at a doorway. Since it has the aspect "on fire", that doorway now has a barrier rating depending on the severity of the fire. If left alone for a few turns that aspect moves from the doorway to the entire room, and eventually the building, doing damage to anyone who stays there. It also may create the "smoke filled" aspect over a few turns, causing a penalty to awareness rolls, and forcing endurance rolls to avoid taking physical stress. Just because situational modifiers aren't printed, doesn't mean they aren't intended. It means that they want you to have the freedom to decide what they should be!




        • GalacticCmdr
          Someone with a rule book is free to come and slap my example down, but this is the way it plays around my table - which I believe runs true with the rules. For
          Message 4 of 12 , Nov 1, 2012
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            Someone with a rule book is free to come and slap my example down, but this is the way it plays around my table - which I believe runs true with the rules.

            For a bit of clarification about how we handle maneuvers. If a character performs a navel-gazing maneuver they only have to hit a GM designated target number - there is no defense roll by an opposing group. On the down-side these maneuvers cannot pass their free tag to anyone else; although others could use a Fate Point to tag them if they can make it work in the story. Not sure if this is RAW, but it is how we have evolved things.

            On to the example:

            Okay, lets give Clyde the Sorcerer (after calculating all focus and specialization extras) a 4 Conviction and 5 Discipline. He fancies himself a storm god so his evocation elements are Water, Fire, and Air. We will not worry that one element might have different values for the sake of this example.


            Exchange 1:

            Cylde goes for the standard navel-gazing maneuver (at least this seems a tradition around my table). The good part is that this is a roll against a fixed result - the downside is that it cannot really be used beyond himself (no passing the tag). The GM declares that it will require 3 shifts to place the maneuver. Clyde's player declare that he is summoning up 3 shifts of power to place the aspect "The Storms come at my call". Long story short - he makes the roll, takes a 1 Stress mental hit (for summoning up <= Conviction in shifts) and the maneuver is placed.


            Exchange 2:

            Clyde decides to turn his stormy wrath upon the main bad guy (MBG) and his thugs. He is going for dropping some lightning on the 2 zones that they are currently occupying. Clyde want this to be really effective so he is going to summon up 8 shifts of power - even if he makes it this will cost him 5 mental stress (1 + 4 extra shifts). His starting Disciple is 5 and the GM (after a bit of story from Clyde's player) allows him to use the maneuver he placed in exchange 1 (above), which he free tags for the +2 to his Discipline Roll. This gives him a base of 7 against a target of 8. For the sake of the example we shall assume that he makes the roll (achieving a final result of 9).

            Clyde's player now decides how to spend those shifts. He takes 4 shifts and uses it to "buy" 2 zones of effect. He then uses the remaining 4 shifts to buy Weapon:4 effect. The shifts that you summoned in power are expended like candy to buy goodies for the spell. The shifts you summoned in exchange 1 were expended in exchange 1 to place the maneuver - thus allowing you to tag it for the +2 in this example.

            Everyone in those two zones have to defend against a 9 result. Those that fail will be hit by a Weapon:4 attack + the margin of their failure. This is a pretty devastating attack - even if the MBG manages a 7 defense roll - it will still cause 6 points of stress. I cannot imagine any of the thugs making it, as a GM I would not even roll for their defense. On the downside - Clyde took 5 stress himself.

            As a final note, Clyde is a smart cookie and does not want to run afoul of the White Council's "no killing with magic" rule, so the player never declared that he was going for a kill. Thus the thugs are taken out of the conflict by the "shock and awe", but none of them are dead.

            There might be some minor things wrong, but I think I got the major things correct.



            Chip


            On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 10:57 PM, afategm <afategm@...> wrote:
             

            I run a dresden game & had a player tell me "it doesn't make any sense for me to ever do anything but nuke because it costs 3 points to perform a maneuver & it gets tagged by someone for 2/reroll." In a way he's right, but I'm not sure what is intended & see potential problems depending on which way I go in regards to it.

            Up until now we have been playing with maneuver costs 3 points, 2 points to hit an entire zone, 1/round duration, etc with those points just going away & not counting towards things like attack/damage/whatever because they are counting towards other stuff like extra duration, hitting entire zones, setting up a maneuver, etc.

            The problem comes up in what happens if I allow those points to count towards other stuff. If it's just you need at least 3 points for a maneuver & any spell with 3 or more points automatically covers everything in a zone at the same time as that needs at least 2 giving you a zonewide 3 point nuke/Dot lasting three rounds plus a taggable aspect. Letting them combine as just a "you must be at least this tall" sort of thing seems ripe for trouble if the player can reliably call up 3+ shifts.
            For simplicity's sake:
            YS251 says "2 shifts of power lets you affect every target in one particular zone you can see (filling the zone with fire instead of shooting fire at one monster). You can go after more than one zone at a time by buying this effect multiple times, so up to four shifts of power allows you to affect all targets in two zones"
            YS251 also says: "1 shift of power increases the weapon rating by one. So if you allocate 4 shifts of power to this, your spell is treated as a weapon 4 attack" with an example that has a single target ray type attack inflicting only stress & making no mention of other zones/aspects from the spell aside from the consequence the opponent takes from the stress.

            YS251 also has a bit about dividing the shifts in a spray type attack against individual targets, but there is no mention about zones/duration even though it's using 5+ shift attacks for example & pretty clearly giving me the impression that those extra bells & whistles like duration, maneuvers, zonewide effect, etc have to be purchased seperately by giving them their own shifts.

            YS252 says "Performing maneuvers is a little trickier than attacking or blocking. By default, pulling off most maneuvers requires 3 shifts of power, but if the target has an appropriate resisting skill rated higher than good (+3), that skill determines the required number of shifts"

            The use of the word "buying" in the YS251 seems to suggest that they just go away, but when it goes on to say that up to 4 shifts allows you to affect targets in two zones making it look like it could be a "you might be this tall" thing... but the maneuver's section is pretty blunt when it says that performing them is trickier than an attack. None of the examples seem to suggest that the other bits are included free either

            Can anyone shed some light on how to adjudicate this? Should there be -any- free overlap? If so, what & why?




            --
            “Irreverence is the champion of liberty and its only sure defense. True irreverence is disrespect for another man’s god.” – Mark Twain


          • afategm
            I got a bit tied up by youe example & had to unravel it a bit. * Mage Clyde has discipline 5 ** Exchange 1: Clyde creates an advantage via maneuver(I have to
            Message 5 of 12 , Nov 1, 2012
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              I got a bit tied up by youe example & had to unravel it a bit.
              * Mage Clyde has discipline 5
              ** Exchange 1: Clyde creates an advantage via maneuver(I have to admit that I reallly like that new create advantage wording;)
              ** Exchang2 2: Clyde wants to cast a damage spell on the BBEG & his thugs
              *** The opponents in question are presumably spread across 2 zones. Since each zone costs 2 shiftsto attack everything within, this costs 4 shifts.
              *** Clyde summons up 8 shifts of power & his control roll turns out being 9 with help from the aspect & taking extra stress, giving him a 9:weapon4 attack to everyone in those two zones

              I think rewording that somehow mentally clicked something for me & made me stumble on the real problem for why this player not only never performs maneuvers with magic, but pretty much only ever "I cast an N shift force football called xxx at Y" & know how to fix the root cause with some work on my part :). The confirmation from folks that the points spent just go away however is helpful in starting that Specifically I think I'm going to go down the core SRD spells from DZ&D, and show how the interesting ones can be converted to the dresden elements as I get time;)



              --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, GalacticCmdr <galacticcmdr@...> wrote:
              >
              > Someone with a rule book is free to come and slap my example down, but this
              > is the way it plays around my table - which I believe runs true with the
              > rules.
              >
              > For a bit of clarification about how we handle maneuvers. If a character
              > performs a navel-gazing maneuver they only have to hit a GM designated
              > target number - there is no defense roll by an opposing group. On the
              > down-side these maneuvers cannot pass their free tag to anyone else;
              > although others could use a Fate Point to tag them if they can make it work
              > in the story. Not sure if this is RAW, but it is how we have evolved things.
              >
              > On to the example:
              >
              > Okay, lets give Clyde the Sorcerer (after calculating all focus and
              > specialization extras) a 4 Conviction and 5 Discipline. He fancies himself
              > a storm god so his evocation elements are Water, Fire, and Air. We will not
              > worry that one element might have different values for the sake of this
              > example.
              >
              >
              > Exchange 1:
              >
              > Cylde goes for the standard navel-gazing maneuver (at least this seems a
              > tradition around my table). The good part is that this is a roll against a
              > fixed result - the downside is that it cannot really be used beyond himself
              > (no passing the tag). The GM declares that it will require 3 shifts to
              > place the maneuver. Clyde's player declare that he is summoning up 3 shifts
              > of power to place the aspect "The Storms come at my call". Long story short
              > - he makes the roll, takes a 1 Stress mental hit (for summoning up <=
              > Conviction in shifts) and the maneuver is placed.
              >
              >
              > Exchange 2:
              >
              > Clyde decides to turn his stormy wrath upon the main bad guy (MBG) and his
              > thugs. He is going for dropping some lightning on the 2 zones that they are
              > currently occupying. Clyde want this to be really effective so he is going
              > to summon up 8 shifts of power - even if he makes it this will cost him 5
              > mental stress (1 + 4 extra shifts). His starting Disciple is 5 and the GM
              > (after a bit of story from Clyde's player) allows him to use the maneuver
              > he placed in exchange 1 (above), which he free tags for the +2 to his
              > Discipline Roll. This gives him a base of 7 against a target of 8. For the
              > sake of the example we shall assume that he makes the roll (achieving a
              > final result of 9).
              >
              > Clyde's player now decides how to spend those shifts. He takes 4 shifts and
              > uses it to "buy" 2 zones of effect. He then uses the remaining 4 shifts to
              > buy Weapon:4 effect. The shifts that you summoned in power are expended
              > like candy to buy goodies for the spell. The shifts you summoned in
              > exchange 1 were expended in exchange 1 to place the maneuver - thus
              > allowing you to tag it for the +2 in this example.
              >
              > Everyone in those two zones have to defend against a 9 result. Those that
              > fail will be hit by a Weapon:4 attack + the margin of their failure. This
              > is a pretty devastating attack - even if the MBG manages a 7 defense roll -
              > it will still cause 6 points of stress. I cannot imagine any of the thugs
              > making it, as a GM I would not even roll for their defense. On the downside
              > - Clyde took 5 stress himself.
              >
              > As a final note, Clyde is a smart cookie and does not want to run afoul of
              > the White Council's "no killing with magic" rule, so the player never
              > declared that he was going for a kill. Thus the thugs are taken out of the
              > conflict by the "shock and awe", but none of them are dead.
              >
              > There might be some minor things wrong, but I think I got the major things
              > correct.
              >
              >
              >
              > Chip
              >
              >
              > On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 10:57 PM, afategm <afategm@...> wrote:
              >
              > > **
              > >
              > >
              > > I run a dresden game & had a player tell me "it doesn't make any sense for
              > > me to ever do anything but nuke because it costs 3 points to perform a
              > > maneuver & it gets tagged by someone for 2/reroll." In a way he's right,
              > > but I'm not sure what is intended & see potential problems depending on
              > > which way I go in regards to it.
              > >
              > > Up until now we have been playing with maneuver costs 3 points, 2 points
              > > to hit an entire zone, 1/round duration, etc with those points just going
              > > away & not counting towards things like attack/damage/whatever because they
              > > are counting towards other stuff like extra duration, hitting entire zones,
              > > setting up a maneuver, etc.
              > >
              > > The problem comes up in what happens if I allow those points to count
              > > towards other stuff. If it's just you need at least 3 points for a maneuver
              > > & any spell with 3 or more points automatically covers everything in a zone
              > > at the same time as that needs at least 2 giving you a zonewide 3 point
              > > nuke/Dot lasting three rounds plus a taggable aspect. Letting them combine
              > > as just a "you must be at least this tall" sort of thing seems ripe for
              > > trouble if the player can reliably call up 3+ shifts.
              > > For simplicity's sake:
              > > YS251 says "2 shifts of power lets you affect every target in one
              > > particular zone you can see (filling the zone with fire instead of shooting
              > > fire at one monster). You can go after more than one zone at a time by
              > > buying this effect multiple times, so up to four shifts of power allows you
              > > to affect all targets in two zones"
              > > YS251 also says: "1 shift of power increases the weapon rating by one. So
              > > if you allocate 4 shifts of power to this, your spell is treated as a
              > > weapon 4 attack" with an example that has a single target ray type attack
              > > inflicting only stress & making no mention of other zones/aspects from the
              > > spell aside from the consequence the opponent takes from the stress.
              > >
              > > YS251 also has a bit about dividing the shifts in a spray type attack
              > > against individual targets, but there is no mention about zones/duration
              > > even though it's using 5+ shift attacks for example & pretty clearly giving
              > > me the impression that those extra bells & whistles like duration,
              > > maneuvers, zonewide effect, etc have to be purchased seperately by giving
              > > them their own shifts.
              > >
              > > YS252 says "Performing maneuvers is a little trickier than attacking or
              > > blocking. By default, pulling off most maneuvers requires 3 shifts of
              > > power, but if the target has an appropriate resisting skill rated higher
              > > than good (+3), that skill determines the required number of shifts"
              > >
              > > The use of the word "buying" in the YS251 seems to suggest that they just
              > > go away, but when it goes on to say that up to 4 shifts allows you to
              > > affect targets in two zones making it look like it could be a "you might be
              > > this tall" thing... but the maneuver's section is pretty blunt when it says
              > > that performing them is trickier than an attack. None of the examples seem
              > > to suggest that the other bits are included free either
              > >
              > > Can anyone shed some light on how to adjudicate this? Should there be
              > > -any- free overlap? If so, what & why?
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > --
              > *"Irreverence is the champion of liberty and its only sure defense. True
              > irreverence **is disrespect for another man's god."* – Mark Twain
              >
            • Fred Hicks
              Things also get interesting when you are looking at a wizard who likes to throw those Force Footballs out as an easy thing, and you field a creature with
              Message 6 of 12 , Nov 1, 2012
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                Things also get interesting when you are looking at a wizard who likes
                to throw those Force Footballs out as an 'easy' thing, and you field a
                creature with Physical Immunity at them. Suddenly the 'nuked' monster
                is shrugging off the favorite attacks, and it starts to become a bit
                of a research and maneuver problem. (Maneuvers to set up circumstances
                that at least slow the thing down, research to figure out what its
                weakness is, etc.)

                Fred

                On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 4:18 PM, afategm <afategm@...> wrote:
                > I got a bit tied up by youe example & had to unravel it a bit.
                > * Mage Clyde has discipline 5
                > ** Exchange 1: Clyde creates an advantage via maneuver(I have to admit that I reallly like that new create advantage wording;)
                > ** Exchang2 2: Clyde wants to cast a damage spell on the BBEG & his thugs
                > *** The opponents in question are presumably spread across 2 zones. Since each zone costs 2 shiftsto attack everything within, this costs 4 shifts.
                > *** Clyde summons up 8 shifts of power & his control roll turns out being 9 with help from the aspect & taking extra stress, giving him a 9:weapon4 attack to everyone in those two zones
                >
                > I think rewording that somehow mentally clicked something for me & made me stumble on the real problem for why this player not only never performs maneuvers with magic, but pretty much only ever "I cast an N shift force football called xxx at Y" & know how to fix the root cause with some work on my part :). The confirmation from folks that the points spent just go away however is helpful in starting that Specifically I think I'm going to go down the core SRD spells from DZ&D, and show how the interesting ones can be converted to the dresden elements as I get time;)
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, GalacticCmdr <galacticcmdr@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> Someone with a rule book is free to come and slap my example down, but this
                >> is the way it plays around my table - which I believe runs true with the
                >> rules.
                >>
                >> For a bit of clarification about how we handle maneuvers. If a character
                >> performs a navel-gazing maneuver they only have to hit a GM designated
                >> target number - there is no defense roll by an opposing group. On the
                >> down-side these maneuvers cannot pass their free tag to anyone else;
                >> although others could use a Fate Point to tag them if they can make it work
                >> in the story. Not sure if this is RAW, but it is how we have evolved things.
                >>
                >> On to the example:
                >>
                >> Okay, lets give Clyde the Sorcerer (after calculating all focus and
                >> specialization extras) a 4 Conviction and 5 Discipline. He fancies himself
                >> a storm god so his evocation elements are Water, Fire, and Air. We will not
                >> worry that one element might have different values for the sake of this
                >> example.
                >>
                >>
                >> Exchange 1:
                >>
                >> Cylde goes for the standard navel-gazing maneuver (at least this seems a
                >> tradition around my table). The good part is that this is a roll against a
                >> fixed result - the downside is that it cannot really be used beyond himself
                >> (no passing the tag). The GM declares that it will require 3 shifts to
                >> place the maneuver. Clyde's player declare that he is summoning up 3 shifts
                >> of power to place the aspect "The Storms come at my call". Long story short
                >> - he makes the roll, takes a 1 Stress mental hit (for summoning up <=
                >> Conviction in shifts) and the maneuver is placed.
                >>
                >>
                >> Exchange 2:
                >>
                >> Clyde decides to turn his stormy wrath upon the main bad guy (MBG) and his
                >> thugs. He is going for dropping some lightning on the 2 zones that they are
                >> currently occupying. Clyde want this to be really effective so he is going
                >> to summon up 8 shifts of power - even if he makes it this will cost him 5
                >> mental stress (1 + 4 extra shifts). His starting Disciple is 5 and the GM
                >> (after a bit of story from Clyde's player) allows him to use the maneuver
                >> he placed in exchange 1 (above), which he free tags for the +2 to his
                >> Discipline Roll. This gives him a base of 7 against a target of 8. For the
                >> sake of the example we shall assume that he makes the roll (achieving a
                >> final result of 9).
                >>
                >> Clyde's player now decides how to spend those shifts. He takes 4 shifts and
                >> uses it to "buy" 2 zones of effect. He then uses the remaining 4 shifts to
                >> buy Weapon:4 effect. The shifts that you summoned in power are expended
                >> like candy to buy goodies for the spell. The shifts you summoned in
                >> exchange 1 were expended in exchange 1 to place the maneuver - thus
                >> allowing you to tag it for the +2 in this example.
                >>
                >> Everyone in those two zones have to defend against a 9 result. Those that
                >> fail will be hit by a Weapon:4 attack + the margin of their failure. This
                >> is a pretty devastating attack - even if the MBG manages a 7 defense roll -
                >> it will still cause 6 points of stress. I cannot imagine any of the thugs
                >> making it, as a GM I would not even roll for their defense. On the downside
                >> - Clyde took 5 stress himself.
                >>
                >> As a final note, Clyde is a smart cookie and does not want to run afoul of
                >> the White Council's "no killing with magic" rule, so the player never
                >> declared that he was going for a kill. Thus the thugs are taken out of the
                >> conflict by the "shock and awe", but none of them are dead.
                >>
                >> There might be some minor things wrong, but I think I got the major things
                >> correct.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> Chip
                >>
                >>
                >> On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 10:57 PM, afategm <afategm@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> > **
                >> >
                >> >
                >> > I run a dresden game & had a player tell me "it doesn't make any sense for
                >> > me to ever do anything but nuke because it costs 3 points to perform a
                >> > maneuver & it gets tagged by someone for 2/reroll." In a way he's right,
                >> > but I'm not sure what is intended & see potential problems depending on
                >> > which way I go in regards to it.
                >> >
                >> > Up until now we have been playing with maneuver costs 3 points, 2 points
                >> > to hit an entire zone, 1/round duration, etc with those points just going
                >> > away & not counting towards things like attack/damage/whatever because they
                >> > are counting towards other stuff like extra duration, hitting entire zones,
                >> > setting up a maneuver, etc.
                >> >
                >> > The problem comes up in what happens if I allow those points to count
                >> > towards other stuff. If it's just you need at least 3 points for a maneuver
                >> > & any spell with 3 or more points automatically covers everything in a zone
                >> > at the same time as that needs at least 2 giving you a zonewide 3 point
                >> > nuke/Dot lasting three rounds plus a taggable aspect. Letting them combine
                >> > as just a "you must be at least this tall" sort of thing seems ripe for
                >> > trouble if the player can reliably call up 3+ shifts.
                >> > For simplicity's sake:
                >> > YS251 says "2 shifts of power lets you affect every target in one
                >> > particular zone you can see (filling the zone with fire instead of shooting
                >> > fire at one monster). You can go after more than one zone at a time by
                >> > buying this effect multiple times, so up to four shifts of power allows you
                >> > to affect all targets in two zones"
                >> > YS251 also says: "1 shift of power increases the weapon rating by one. So
                >> > if you allocate 4 shifts of power to this, your spell is treated as a
                >> > weapon 4 attack" with an example that has a single target ray type attack
                >> > inflicting only stress & making no mention of other zones/aspects from the
                >> > spell aside from the consequence the opponent takes from the stress.
                >> >
                >> > YS251 also has a bit about dividing the shifts in a spray type attack
                >> > against individual targets, but there is no mention about zones/duration
                >> > even though it's using 5+ shift attacks for example & pretty clearly giving
                >> > me the impression that those extra bells & whistles like duration,
                >> > maneuvers, zonewide effect, etc have to be purchased seperately by giving
                >> > them their own shifts.
                >> >
                >> > YS252 says "Performing maneuvers is a little trickier than attacking or
                >> > blocking. By default, pulling off most maneuvers requires 3 shifts of
                >> > power, but if the target has an appropriate resisting skill rated higher
                >> > than good (+3), that skill determines the required number of shifts"
                >> >
                >> > The use of the word "buying" in the YS251 seems to suggest that they just
                >> > go away, but when it goes on to say that up to 4 shifts allows you to
                >> > affect targets in two zones making it look like it could be a "you might be
                >> > this tall" thing... but the maneuver's section is pretty blunt when it says
                >> > that performing them is trickier than an attack. None of the examples seem
                >> > to suggest that the other bits are included free either
                >> >
                >> > Can anyone shed some light on how to adjudicate this? Should there be
                >> > -any- free overlap? If so, what & why?
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> --
                >> *"Irreverence is the champion of liberty and its only sure defense. True
                >> irreverence **is disrespect for another man's god."* – Mark Twain
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > | The Race to Adventure is ON! Back the Kickstarter: http://kck.st/LZU2rs
                > |
                > | Fate * http://www.faterpg.com/
                > | DFRPG * http://www.dresdenfilesrpg.com/
                > | Evil Hat * http://www.evilhat.com/
                > | Evil Hat Fan Wiki * http://evilhat.wikidot.com/Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >



                --
                Fred Hicks
                Co-President, Evil Hat Productions, LLC - www.evilhat.com
                Freelance Layoutist * Game Publishing Blogger - www.deadlyfredly.com
                For "real time" updates: http://twitter.com/fredhicks http://gplus.to/fredhicks
              • Nobilis Reed
                This discussion has been INCREDIBLY valuable. ... -- Stories that don t stop at the bedroom door - or the castle gate - or the airlock.
                Message 7 of 12 , Nov 1, 2012
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                  This discussion has been INCREDIBLY valuable.

                  On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 4:18 PM, afategm <afategm@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > I got a bit tied up by youe example & had to unravel it a bit.
                  > * Mage Clyde has discipline 5
                  > ** Exchange 1: Clyde creates an advantage via maneuver(I have to admit that
                  > I reallly like that new create advantage wording;)
                  > ** Exchang2 2: Clyde wants to cast a damage spell on the BBEG & his thugs
                  > *** The opponents in question are presumably spread across 2 zones. Since
                  > each zone costs 2 shiftsto attack everything within, this costs 4 shifts.
                  > *** Clyde summons up 8 shifts of power & his control roll turns out being 9
                  > with help from the aspect & taking extra stress, giving him a 9:weapon4
                  > attack to everyone in those two zones
                  >
                  > I think rewording that somehow mentally clicked something for me & made me
                  > stumble on the real problem for why this player not only never performs
                  > maneuvers with magic, but pretty much only ever "I cast an N shift force
                  > football called xxx at Y" & know how to fix the root cause with some work on
                  > my part :). The confirmation from folks that the points spent just go away
                  > however is helpful in starting that Specifically I think I'm going to go
                  > down the core SRD spells from DZ&D, and show how the interesting ones can be
                  > converted to the dresden elements as I get time;)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, GalacticCmdr <galacticcmdr@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> Someone with a rule book is free to come and slap my example down, but
                  >> this
                  >> is the way it plays around my table - which I believe runs true with the
                  >> rules.
                  >>
                  >> For a bit of clarification about how we handle maneuvers. If a character
                  >> performs a navel-gazing maneuver they only have to hit a GM designated
                  >> target number - there is no defense roll by an opposing group. On the
                  >> down-side these maneuvers cannot pass their free tag to anyone else;
                  >> although others could use a Fate Point to tag them if they can make it
                  >> work
                  >> in the story. Not sure if this is RAW, but it is how we have evolved
                  >> things.
                  >>
                  >> On to the example:
                  >>
                  >> Okay, lets give Clyde the Sorcerer (after calculating all focus and
                  >> specialization extras) a 4 Conviction and 5 Discipline. He fancies himself
                  >> a storm god so his evocation elements are Water, Fire, and Air. We will
                  >> not
                  >> worry that one element might have different values for the sake of this
                  >> example.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Exchange 1:
                  >>
                  >> Cylde goes for the standard navel-gazing maneuver (at least this seems a
                  >> tradition around my table). The good part is that this is a roll against a
                  >> fixed result - the downside is that it cannot really be used beyond
                  >> himself
                  >> (no passing the tag). The GM declares that it will require 3 shifts to
                  >> place the maneuver. Clyde's player declare that he is summoning up 3
                  >> shifts
                  >> of power to place the aspect "The Storms come at my call". Long story
                  >> short
                  >> - he makes the roll, takes a 1 Stress mental hit (for summoning up <=
                  >> Conviction in shifts) and the maneuver is placed.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Exchange 2:
                  >>
                  >> Clyde decides to turn his stormy wrath upon the main bad guy (MBG) and his
                  >> thugs. He is going for dropping some lightning on the 2 zones that they
                  >> are
                  >> currently occupying. Clyde want this to be really effective so he is going
                  >> to summon up 8 shifts of power - even if he makes it this will cost him 5
                  >> mental stress (1 + 4 extra shifts). His starting Disciple is 5 and the GM
                  >> (after a bit of story from Clyde's player) allows him to use the maneuver
                  >> he placed in exchange 1 (above), which he free tags for the +2 to his
                  >> Discipline Roll. This gives him a base of 7 against a target of 8. For the
                  >> sake of the example we shall assume that he makes the roll (achieving a
                  >> final result of 9).
                  >>
                  >> Clyde's player now decides how to spend those shifts. He takes 4 shifts
                  >> and
                  >> uses it to "buy" 2 zones of effect. He then uses the remaining 4 shifts to
                  >> buy Weapon:4 effect. The shifts that you summoned in power are expended
                  >> like candy to buy goodies for the spell. The shifts you summoned in
                  >> exchange 1 were expended in exchange 1 to place the maneuver - thus
                  >> allowing you to tag it for the +2 in this example.
                  >>
                  >> Everyone in those two zones have to defend against a 9 result. Those that
                  >> fail will be hit by a Weapon:4 attack + the margin of their failure. This
                  >> is a pretty devastating attack - even if the MBG manages a 7 defense roll
                  >> -
                  >> it will still cause 6 points of stress. I cannot imagine any of the thugs
                  >> making it, as a GM I would not even roll for their defense. On the
                  >> downside
                  >> - Clyde took 5 stress himself.
                  >>
                  >> As a final note, Clyde is a smart cookie and does not want to run afoul of
                  >> the White Council's "no killing with magic" rule, so the player never
                  >> declared that he was going for a kill. Thus the thugs are taken out of the
                  >> conflict by the "shock and awe", but none of them are dead.
                  >>
                  >> There might be some minor things wrong, but I think I got the major things
                  >> correct.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Chip
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 10:57 PM, afategm <afategm@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> > **
                  >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > I run a dresden game & had a player tell me "it doesn't make any sense
                  >> > for
                  >> > me to ever do anything but nuke because it costs 3 points to perform a
                  >> > maneuver & it gets tagged by someone for 2/reroll." In a way he's right,
                  >> > but I'm not sure what is intended & see potential problems depending on
                  >> > which way I go in regards to it.
                  >> >
                  >> > Up until now we have been playing with maneuver costs 3 points, 2 points
                  >> > to hit an entire zone, 1/round duration, etc with those points just
                  >> > going
                  >> > away & not counting towards things like attack/damage/whatever because
                  >> > they
                  >> > are counting towards other stuff like extra duration, hitting entire
                  >> > zones,
                  >> > setting up a maneuver, etc.
                  >> >
                  >> > The problem comes up in what happens if I allow those points to count
                  >> > towards other stuff. If it's just you need at least 3 points for a
                  >> > maneuver
                  >> > & any spell with 3 or more points automatically covers everything in a
                  >> > zone
                  >> > at the same time as that needs at least 2 giving you a zonewide 3 point
                  >> > nuke/Dot lasting three rounds plus a taggable aspect. Letting them
                  >> > combine
                  >> > as just a "you must be at least this tall" sort of thing seems ripe for
                  >> > trouble if the player can reliably call up 3+ shifts.
                  >> > For simplicity's sake:
                  >> > YS251 says "2 shifts of power lets you affect every target in one
                  >> > particular zone you can see (filling the zone with fire instead of
                  >> > shooting
                  >> > fire at one monster). You can go after more than one zone at a time by
                  >> > buying this effect multiple times, so up to four shifts of power allows
                  >> > you
                  >> > to affect all targets in two zones"
                  >> > YS251 also says: "1 shift of power increases the weapon rating by one.
                  >> > So
                  >> > if you allocate 4 shifts of power to this, your spell is treated as a
                  >> > weapon 4 attack" with an example that has a single target ray type
                  >> > attack
                  >> > inflicting only stress & making no mention of other zones/aspects from
                  >> > the
                  >> > spell aside from the consequence the opponent takes from the stress.
                  >> >
                  >> > YS251 also has a bit about dividing the shifts in a spray type attack
                  >> > against individual targets, but there is no mention about zones/duration
                  >> > even though it's using 5+ shift attacks for example & pretty clearly
                  >> > giving
                  >> > me the impression that those extra bells & whistles like duration,
                  >> > maneuvers, zonewide effect, etc have to be purchased seperately by
                  >> > giving
                  >> > them their own shifts.
                  >> >
                  >> > YS252 says "Performing maneuvers is a little trickier than attacking or
                  >> > blocking. By default, pulling off most maneuvers requires 3 shifts of
                  >> > power, but if the target has an appropriate resisting skill rated higher
                  >> > than good (+3), that skill determines the required number of shifts"
                  >> >
                  >> > The use of the word "buying" in the YS251 seems to suggest that they
                  >> > just
                  >> > go away, but when it goes on to say that up to 4 shifts allows you to
                  >> > affect targets in two zones making it look like it could be a "you might
                  >> > be
                  >> > this tall" thing... but the maneuver's section is pretty blunt when it
                  >> > says
                  >> > that performing them is trickier than an attack. None of the examples
                  >> > seem
                  >> > to suggest that the other bits are included free either
                  >> >
                  >> > Can anyone shed some light on how to adjudicate this? Should there be
                  >> > -any- free overlap? If so, what & why?
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> --
                  >> *"Irreverence is the champion of liberty and its only sure defense. True
                  >> irreverence **is disrespect for another man's god."* – Mark Twain
                  >>
                  >
                  >



                  --
                  Stories that don't stop at the bedroom door - or the castle gate - or
                  the airlock.
                  http://www.nobiliserotica.com
                  ----------------------------------
                  "...You can write the most detailed...description of an ax entering a
                  skull, and nobody will say a word in protest. But if you write a
                  similarly detailed description of a penis entering a vagina, you get
                  letters from people saying they’ll never read you again. What the
                  hell? Penises entering vaginas bring a lot more joy into the world
                  than axes entering skulls.” --Author George R. R. Martin
                • Lisa Steele
                  Maneuvers are hard to get players into. I don t do it nearly as often as I should when I m playing, sadly. I m not sure why, perhaps we re used to that
                  Message 8 of 12 , Nov 1, 2012
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                    Maneuvers are hard to get players into. I don't do it nearly as often as I should when I'm playing, sadly. I'm not sure why, perhaps we're used to that immediate gratification from just hitting the target.


                    -----Original Message-----
                    >From: afategm <afategm@...>
                    >Sent: Nov 1, 2012 4:18 PM
                    >To: FateRPG@yahoogroups.com
                    >Subject: [FateRPG] Re: cost of doing more than just nuke with magic
                    >
                    >I got a bit tied up by youe example & had to unravel it a bit.
                    >* Mage Clyde has discipline 5
                    >** Exchange 1: Clyde creates an advantage via maneuver(I have to admit that I reallly like that new create advantage wording;)
                    >** Exchang2 2: Clyde wants to cast a damage spell on the BBEG & his thugs
                    >*** The opponents in question are presumably spread across 2 zones. Since each zone costs 2 shiftsto attack everything within, this costs 4 shifts.
                    >*** Clyde summons up 8 shifts of power & his control roll turns out being 9 with help from the aspect & taking extra stress, giving him a 9:weapon4 attack to everyone in those two zones
                    >
                    >I think rewording that somehow mentally clicked something for me & made me stumble on the real problem for why this player not only never performs maneuvers with magic, but pretty much only ever "I cast an N shift force football called xxx at Y" & know how to fix the root cause with some work on my part :). The confirmation from folks that the points spent just go away however is helpful in starting that Specifically I think I'm going to go down the core SRD spells from DZ&D, and show how the interesting ones can be converted to the dresden elements as I get time;)
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >--- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, GalacticCmdr <galacticcmdr@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> Someone with a rule book is free to come and slap my example down, but this
                    >> is the way it plays around my table - which I believe runs true with the
                    >> rules.
                    >>
                    >> For a bit of clarification about how we handle maneuvers. If a character
                    >> performs a navel-gazing maneuver they only have to hit a GM designated
                    >> target number - there is no defense roll by an opposing group. On the
                    >> down-side these maneuvers cannot pass their free tag to anyone else;
                    >> although others could use a Fate Point to tag them if they can make it work
                    >> in the story. Not sure if this is RAW, but it is how we have evolved things.
                    >>
                    >> On to the example:
                    >>
                    >> Okay, lets give Clyde the Sorcerer (after calculating all focus and
                    >> specialization extras) a 4 Conviction and 5 Discipline. He fancies himself
                    >> a storm god so his evocation elements are Water, Fire, and Air. We will not
                    >> worry that one element might have different values for the sake of this
                    >> example.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Exchange 1:
                    >>
                    >> Cylde goes for the standard navel-gazing maneuver (at least this seems a
                    >> tradition around my table). The good part is that this is a roll against a
                    >> fixed result - the downside is that it cannot really be used beyond himself
                    >> (no passing the tag). The GM declares that it will require 3 shifts to
                    >> place the maneuver. Clyde's player declare that he is summoning up 3 shifts
                    >> of power to place the aspect "The Storms come at my call". Long story short
                    >> - he makes the roll, takes a 1 Stress mental hit (for summoning up <=
                    >> Conviction in shifts) and the maneuver is placed.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Exchange 2:
                    >>
                    >> Clyde decides to turn his stormy wrath upon the main bad guy (MBG) and his
                    >> thugs. He is going for dropping some lightning on the 2 zones that they are
                    >> currently occupying. Clyde want this to be really effective so he is going
                    >> to summon up 8 shifts of power - even if he makes it this will cost him 5
                    >> mental stress (1 + 4 extra shifts). His starting Disciple is 5 and the GM
                    >> (after a bit of story from Clyde's player) allows him to use the maneuver
                    >> he placed in exchange 1 (above), which he free tags for the +2 to his
                    >> Discipline Roll. This gives him a base of 7 against a target of 8. For the
                    >> sake of the example we shall assume that he makes the roll (achieving a
                    >> final result of 9).
                    >>
                    >> Clyde's player now decides how to spend those shifts. He takes 4 shifts and
                    >> uses it to "buy" 2 zones of effect. He then uses the remaining 4 shifts to
                    >> buy Weapon:4 effect. The shifts that you summoned in power are expended
                    >> like candy to buy goodies for the spell. The shifts you summoned in
                    >> exchange 1 were expended in exchange 1 to place the maneuver - thus
                    >> allowing you to tag it for the +2 in this example.
                    >>
                    >> Everyone in those two zones have to defend against a 9 result. Those that
                    >> fail will be hit by a Weapon:4 attack + the margin of their failure. This
                    >> is a pretty devastating attack - even if the MBG manages a 7 defense roll -
                    >> it will still cause 6 points of stress. I cannot imagine any of the thugs
                    >> making it, as a GM I would not even roll for their defense. On the downside
                    >> - Clyde took 5 stress himself.
                    >>
                    >> As a final note, Clyde is a smart cookie and does not want to run afoul of
                    >> the White Council's "no killing with magic" rule, so the player never
                    >> declared that he was going for a kill. Thus the thugs are taken out of the
                    >> conflict by the "shock and awe", but none of them are dead.
                    >>
                    >> There might be some minor things wrong, but I think I got the major things
                    >> correct.
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> Chip
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 10:57 PM, afategm <afategm@...> wrote:
                    >>
                    >> > **
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> > I run a dresden game & had a player tell me "it doesn't make any sense for
                    >> > me to ever do anything but nuke because it costs 3 points to perform a
                    >> > maneuver & it gets tagged by someone for 2/reroll." In a way he's right,
                    >> > but I'm not sure what is intended & see potential problems depending on
                    >> > which way I go in regards to it.
                    >> >
                    >> > Up until now we have been playing with maneuver costs 3 points, 2 points
                    >> > to hit an entire zone, 1/round duration, etc with those points just going
                    >> > away & not counting towards things like attack/damage/whatever because they
                    >> > are counting towards other stuff like extra duration, hitting entire zones,
                    >> > setting up a maneuver, etc.
                    >> >
                    >> > The problem comes up in what happens if I allow those points to count
                    >> > towards other stuff. If it's just you need at least 3 points for a maneuver
                    >> > & any spell with 3 or more points automatically covers everything in a zone
                    >> > at the same time as that needs at least 2 giving you a zonewide 3 point
                    >> > nuke/Dot lasting three rounds plus a taggable aspect. Letting them combine
                    >> > as just a "you must be at least this tall" sort of thing seems ripe for
                    >> > trouble if the player can reliably call up 3+ shifts.
                    >> > For simplicity's sake:
                    >> > YS251 says "2 shifts of power lets you affect every target in one
                    >> > particular zone you can see (filling the zone with fire instead of shooting
                    >> > fire at one monster). You can go after more than one zone at a time by
                    >> > buying this effect multiple times, so up to four shifts of power allows you
                    >> > to affect all targets in two zones"
                    >> > YS251 also says: "1 shift of power increases the weapon rating by one. So
                    >> > if you allocate 4 shifts of power to this, your spell is treated as a
                    >> > weapon 4 attack" with an example that has a single target ray type attack
                    >> > inflicting only stress & making no mention of other zones/aspects from the
                    >> > spell aside from the consequence the opponent takes from the stress.
                    >> >
                    >> > YS251 also has a bit about dividing the shifts in a spray type attack
                    >> > against individual targets, but there is no mention about zones/duration
                    >> > even though it's using 5+ shift attacks for example & pretty clearly giving
                    >> > me the impression that those extra bells & whistles like duration,
                    >> > maneuvers, zonewide effect, etc have to be purchased seperately by giving
                    >> > them their own shifts.
                    >> >
                    >> > YS252 says "Performing maneuvers is a little trickier than attacking or
                    >> > blocking. By default, pulling off most maneuvers requires 3 shifts of
                    >> > power, but if the target has an appropriate resisting skill rated higher
                    >> > than good (+3), that skill determines the required number of shifts"
                    >> >
                    >> > The use of the word "buying" in the YS251 seems to suggest that they just
                    >> > go away, but when it goes on to say that up to 4 shifts allows you to
                    >> > affect targets in two zones making it look like it could be a "you might be
                    >> > this tall" thing... but the maneuver's section is pretty blunt when it says
                    >> > that performing them is trickier than an attack. None of the examples seem
                    >> > to suggest that the other bits are included free either
                    >> >
                    >> > Can anyone shed some light on how to adjudicate this? Should there be
                    >> > -any- free overlap? If so, what & why?
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> --
                    >> *"Irreverence is the champion of liberty and its only sure defense. True
                    >> irreverence **is disrespect for another man's god."* – Mark Twain
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >------------------------------------
                    >
                    >| The Race to Adventure is ON! Back the Kickstarter: http://kck.st/LZU2rs
                    >|
                    >| Fate * http://www.faterpg.com/
                    >| DFRPG * http://www.dresdenfilesrpg.com/
                    >| Evil Hat * http://www.evilhat.com/
                    >| Evil Hat Fan Wiki * http://evilhat.wikidot.com/Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Nobilis Reed
                    I ve found that the most useful way to get the players to use them, is to have NPC s use them to put the hurt on the PC s. After one or two heavy beatdowns the
                    Message 9 of 12 , Nov 1, 2012
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                      I've found that the most useful way to get the players to use them, is to have NPC's use them to put the hurt on the PC's.
                      After one or two heavy beatdowns the players get the picture.

                      On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 4:25 PM, Lisa Steele <steelelaw@...> wrote:
                       

                      Maneuvers are hard to get players into. I don't do it nearly as often as I should when I'm playing, sadly. I'm not sure why, perhaps we're used to that immediate gratification from just hitting the target.




                      --
                      Stories that don't stop at the bedroom door - or the castle gate - or the airlock.
                      http://www.nobiliserotica.com
                      ----------------------------------
                      "...You can write the most detailed...description of an ax entering a skull, and nobody will say a word in protest. But if you write a similarly detailed description of a penis entering a vagina, you get letters from people saying they’ll never read you again. What the hell? Penises entering vaginas bring a lot more joy into the world than axes entering skulls.” --Author George R. R. Martin
                    • Lisa Hartjes
                      ... For me, it s more a matter of not remembering I can do them to set things up, rather than just taking advantage of Aspects already in place, like
                      Message 10 of 12 , Nov 1, 2012
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                        On 11/1/2012 4:25 PM, Lisa Steele wrote:
                        > Maneuvers are hard to get players into. I don't do it nearly as often
                        > as I should when I'm playing, sadly. I'm not sure why, perhaps we're
                        > used to that immediate gratification from just hitting the target.

                        For me, it's more a matter of not remembering I can do them to set
                        things up, rather than just taking advantage of Aspects already in
                        place, like situation, location, or from consequences.


                        Lisa

                        --
                        "Women are like teabags. We don't know our true strength until we are in
                        hot water!" --Eleanor Roosevelt
                      • Travis Casey
                        And don t forget as well that you can throw the players up against opponents they don t *want* to risk killing. In the standard Dresdenverse, normal humans
                        Message 11 of 12 , Nov 1, 2012
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                          And don't forget as well that you can throw the players up against opponents they don't *want* to risk killing. In the standard Dresdenverse, normal humans would be an example - kill one with magic, even by accident, and you've got the Wardens on you.

                          Then there are other situations, like friends being controlled to attack the PCs, a PC being controlled to attack the other PCs, cops who are misunderstanding the situation, security guards, people who need to be captured and questioned rather than killed, etc.

                          Remember as well that if someone makes a potentially-lethal attack on a character they really shouldn't, you as GM have every right to Concede in a way that leaves their target dead, unconscious and unable to answer questions, or otherwise in a state that is not what the players wanted.

                          Don't forget as well that quite a few things that you might normally consider "maneuvers" can be set up as Blocks, giving them a stronger mechanical effect - "slow" and "hold person"-type spells, or even just knocking people off their feet, for example.

                          --Travis

                          On Nov 1, 2012, at 4:20 PM, Fred Hicks wrote:

                          > Things also get interesting when you are looking at a wizard who likes
                          > to throw those Force Footballs out as an 'easy' thing, and you field a
                          > creature with Physical Immunity at them. Suddenly the 'nuked' monster
                          > is shrugging off the favorite attacks, and it starts to become a bit
                          > of a research and maneuver problem. (Maneuvers to set up circumstances
                          > that at least slow the thing down, research to figure out what its
                          > weakness is, etc.)
                          >
                          > Fred
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