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Re: [FateRPG] HELP! Magic for glorantha =)

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  • Alejandro Javier
    ... The Faith Skill and its trappings are all i need (and possibly want!) for Glorantha. Will add shaman/runelord/sorcerer stunt trees to it (pulling stunts
    Message 1 of 29 , Feb 3, 2010
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      On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 9:15 PM, <douglaedtke@...> wrote:
      I put a magic system together that I quite like, based heavily on the Spirit of Steam and Sorcery. My take uses a single magic skill (with some basic trappings) and can be expanded by stunts which I let them unlock "areas" of magic. Ice/Electricity/Fire/etc. You use your skill and get cause basic effects based as described by the stunts. If that sounds palatable, it's on the Yahoo! group file area under Spirit of the IK.

      The Faith Skill and its trappings are all i need (and possibly want!) for Glorantha.
      Will add shaman/runelord/sorcerer stunt trees to it (pulling stunts from magic) and thats it.

      Is it possible to get an rtf/doc/whatever editable source of Spirit of the IK so i can gloranthize hack it and print a copy for my group?

      Cheers,
      Alex
    • douglaedtke@att.net
      Sure! Just let me know off list what format you want and I ll hook you up. I can send you doc/docx (Word 2008 Mac)/rtf/pages/whatever. Cheers, Doug. ... On
      Message 2 of 29 , Feb 3, 2010
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        Sure! Just let me know off list what format you want and I'll hook you up. I can send you doc/docx (Word 2008 Mac)/rtf/pages/whatever. 

        Cheers,
        Doug.


        -------------- Original message from Alejandro Javier <alejandro.hart@...>: --------------

         



        On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 9:15 PM, <douglaedtke@ att.net> wrote:
        I put a magic system together that I quite like, based heavily on the Spirit of Steam and Sorcery. My take uses a single magic skill (with some basic trappings) and can be expanded by stunts which I let them unlock "areas" of magic. Ice/Electricity/ Fire/etc. You use your skill and get cause basic effects based as described by the stunts. If that sounds palatable, it's on the Yahoo! group file area under Spirit of the IK.

        The Faith Skill and its trappings are all i need (and possibly want!) for Glorantha.
        Will add shaman/runelord/ sorcerer stunt trees to it (pulling stunts from magic) and thats it.

        Is it possible to get an rtf/doc/whatever editable source of Spirit of the IK so i can gloranthize hack it and print a copy for my group?

        Cheers,
        Alex

      • Orion
        I am quite new on Fate + Fudge + Spirit of (whatever)... so, sorry if it sounds dumb... ... But this system dont makes the spellcasting something more complex?
        Message 3 of 29 , Feb 3, 2010
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          I am quite new on Fate + Fudge + Spirit of (whatever)... so, sorry if it sounds dumb...

          ... But this system dont makes the spellcasting something more complex?

          I am not saying its bad... sometimes people like when spellcasting requires tons of skills, and have complex lists and the like... and sometimes they just to want things simple. I suppose as much you demand from skills and special powers or aspects, more you make mages (or the powerful ones) more and more rare, as its more demanding.

          I do really like flexible systems... Things like a small set of areas that would be combined and the like, like elements or the old Star Wars Control, Sense and Alter... Thins like this make me smile.

          So, i am typing so much because i imagine that one of the requirements at the initial post was a simple system, and the "demanding" side of magic would come from Fate points, right?

          If i didnt misunderstand SotC, it demands you spend fate points on using aspects. So, the spellcasting could be an aspect. At other hand, using a table i am sure i saw somewhere arround here, set dificulties based on strenght, range and duration... perhaps even a little guide for shifts on MoS and MoF... If the task levels are too high, it may be a good way to avoid players to do great things... and they may even use additional fate points to increase their chances on rolls for many "basic" spells...

          I suppose that the main problem on sigle skill magic systems is that mages will focus on a small set of skills to support their spellcasting... But a skill cap based on aspect level, for example, may help to hold the progress...

          --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, douglaedtke@... wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > Sure! Just let me know off list what format you want and I'll hook you up. I can send you doc/docx (Word 2008 Mac)/rtf/pages/whatever.
          >
          >
          > Cheers,
          > Doug.
          >
          >
          >
          > -------------- Original message from Alejandro Javier <alejandro.hart@...>: --------------
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 9:15 PM, <douglaedtke@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          > I put a magic system together that I quite like, based heavily on the Spirit of Steam and Sorcery. My take uses a single magic skill (with some basic trappings) and can be expanded by stunts which I let them unlock "areas" of magic. Ice/Electricity/Fire/etc. You use your skill and get cause basic effects based as described by the stunts. If that sounds palatable, it's on the Yahoo! group file area under Spirit of the IK.
          >
          >
          > The Faith Skill and its trappings are all i need (and possibly want!) for Glorantha.
          > Will add shaman/runelord/sorcerer stunt trees to it (pulling stunts from magic) and thats it.
          >
          > Is it possible to get an rtf/doc/whatever editable source of Spirit of the IK so i can gloranthize hack it and print a copy for my group?
          >
          > Cheers,
          > Alex
          >
        • Undead Trout
          As a Gloranthaphile of some thirty years experience, I would suggest retooling stunts to make them represent magical effects. Reserve your Magic or Faith or
          Message 4 of 29 , Feb 3, 2010
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            As a Gloranthaphile of some thirty years' experience, I would suggest retooling stunts to make them represent magical effects. Reserve your Magic or Faith or whatever skill for the truly important Gloranthan magic: heroquests and effects that are purely magical in nature. Think of each step on the FATE pyramid as a Mastery level from HeroQuest, and adjust your power level accordingly. Should give you the same cinematic feel as HQ.


            --
            Undead Trout  --  undead.trout@...
            ~ Always Something Fishy Going On™ ~
          • Ildfus Mahler
            Hey, don t know much about Gloranthan Magic per se, but in our various implementations of Fantasy Settings in FATE (vanilla-Forgotten Realms, heavily-modified
            Message 5 of 29 , Feb 4, 2010
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              Hey,

              don't know much about Gloranthan Magic per se, but in our various implementations of Fantasy Settings in FATE (vanilla-Forgotten Realms, heavily-modified post-apocalypse Forgotten Realms and the Realms of Arkania (Low-Fantasy World for the German RPG "The Dark Eye")), we used a pretty simple way of handling magic which is derived mainly from the Magic Rules in the SotC-Supplement/Adventure "Spirit of the Season".

              For using magic, you first need a magic aspect which corresponds to the tradition/school/type/philosophy/whatever of magic (so, a Cleric of Silvanus, the Forgotten Realms God of forests, trees and the untamed wilderness might have the "Song of Oak, Thistle and Thorn" aspect which signifies his being in tune with the divine melodies which flow through nature).

              Second, you need to purchase a stunt which corresponds to the basic training in the tradition of magic you are schooled in. This stunt "unlocks" the appropriate magic skill. That could either allow access to a complete new skill which cannot be taken/used without the stunt, or it could add a new trapping to an existing skill (in our example, the stunt "Initiation to the Circle of the Oakenfather" could add the trapping "Divine Wonders" to the skill "Survival"). With this trapping or skill you can put magical aspects on a scene/yourself/other characters.

              Third, if you want your magic skill to be able to have other effects, you need to buy other stunts. In our campaigns we have two additional stunts available for magic users (one which lets you use the magic skill/trapping for attacking someone, i.e. substituting your magic skill for attacks; and one by which you can - for a scence - summon a helper, i.e. summoning a companion/minions).

              How you handle paying for using these additional uses of magic depends on taste and the general feel of balance in the party. We have the rule that if you take your time and prepare a ritual, you need not spend FP in order to summon a helper, but if you want to make it happen suddenly (i.e. for it to be useful during combat), you need to spend a FP.

              Of course, all uses of magic need to conform to the ways of your magical tradition (e.g., a substitution of a battle-skill by the tree-cleric would probably not look like Fireballs, Lightning bolts and Magic Missiles, but rather have the form of a tree nearby suddenly starting to hit the opponent...)

              Helpful?

              Best, David

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            • Alejandro Javier
              What i got so far (mostly pulled from spirit of the IK): - A magic skill with basic trappings; this is the magic anyone can do by beeing an initiate /
              Message 6 of 29 , Feb 4, 2010
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                What i got so far (mostly pulled from spirit of the IK):

                - A magic skill with basic trappings; this is the magic anyone can do by beeing an initiate / apprentice:

                * divination
                * soul sight/mystic vision ("see" magic; use awareness with the magic skill)
                * countermagic (block magic with magic)
                * prayer (use magic to heal composure stress)


                - A magic stunt (three actually) that represents the character magical training. The stunt lets you cast spells at 1FP each, unless you have a RunePriest/Lord, Adept or Shaman aspect (then they are free!).

                *  Buff yourself with battle magic (use magic as a complementary skill for combat, lasts one scene)
                *  Buff yourself or hinder your enemy (make a maneuver and place an appropriate aspect)
                *  Spend 1 FP to use the magic skill instead of another skill (as long as it's appropriate).


                - Magic stunts that represent the truly powerful spells; they require the lord, adept or shaman aspect. This is just a sample list pulled from bailywolf "the dark arts" and Spirit of the IK

                * Healing (use Magic to heal). [healing, heal wounds, heal body, regenerate limb, resurrect].

                * Attack (use Magic to attack at range -damage goes against either health or composure).
                Fear, Disruption, Venom, Lightning, Sunspear and all those spells.

                * Shield, (use Magic as Defense skill against both magic and physical threats)

                * Telekinesis (use Magic as Might... At a distance! -1 per zone)

                * Fly (use Magic as Athetics, in 3D!) -works as ethereal lightness, 1FP to use as wings of the seraphim

                * Lesser & Grand Invocation (minion stunts)

                * Charms & Fetishes: spend FP to place an aspect upon a small item that can be used by anyone giving a free tag (and then the item loses its power)

                * Discorporation (as per astral travel)

                * Fireblade (a really cool stunt from SoIK, may also be firearrow!)

                * Spirit Ally/Familiar/Fetch/Companion (whatever magic ally your character has, minion stunt or gadget stunt for the theist's allies or bound spirits)

                * Self Resurrect: the classic shaman skill to come back from the dead!!! [as dead defiance]

                * Rare Artifact [as the mysteries stunt]

                * Cult secret: costs all your FP but one (!) and may be used once per session only. Stuff like resurrect, sever spirit, teleport and other spells that should exist but are gamebreaking. May be Divine Intervention too if you want.

                The "system" itself is preety simple, and lets you emulate whatever a gloranthan hero does (i hope!) even if its just "placing an aspect"). What do you think?

                Cheers,
                Alex

              • Alejandro Javier
                Well, this is what i have (so far). Stunts are called Feats and have no requisites (not for magic, nor anything else). And that s preety much it!!! Looking
                Message 7 of 29 , Feb 4, 2010
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                  Well, this is what i have (so far). Stunts are called "Feats" and have no requisites (not for magic, nor anything else). And that's preety much it!!! Looking forward to your input! =)


                  Magic [Animism, Sorcery, Theism] - Replaces Mysteries


                  Magic represents a character’s metaphysical link to the god, spirit or principle they worship, and their ability to perform Magic. Everyone in Glorantha knows a little bit of magic. Each character should name their Magic skill accordingly of the source of his power.

                  Arcane Lore: Mysteries can be used in the same way Lore can, for research of exceptionally esoteric topics. The main limitation is that libraries necessary for this sort of research are few and far between, though characters may have an Arcane Library of their own if they have sufficient Resources.

                  Battle Magic: The player may roll, as a maneuver, to place temporary Aspects on himself, an ally or an enemy that they may Invoke in the pursuit of a specific endeavor. This may be divine intervention, spirits that help or hinder, or specific spells. Such Aspects must reflect and serve your deity, tradition or school of magic interests. Battle Magic costs one Fate Point per use unless you have a Shaman, RunePriest/Lord or Sorcerer Aspect.

                  Countermagic: Whenever you choose to hold your action, you may spend a Fate Point before another spellcaster acts to have them truthfully declare what they are about to do. If their intent is to cast a spell, you may then use your held action to block it, using your Magic skill to create the block. If you opt to not block their effort, you must wait until your target completes their action to proceed. If you commit to performing a counterspell regardless of what your target declares, before they declare it, you do not need to spend the Fate Point. Be clear about this when you make your demand!

                  Divination: The player can, through ritual magic, make an assessment about a person, place, thing or course of action. If a specific person or creature is targeted, they can resist with Resolve.
                  Divination is a form of declaration. The character may, once per session, make a prediction, and make a roll against a difficulty set by the GM. If the roll is successful, it’s a true fortune, and there is now an aspect that represents it. If the target of the fortune was a person, they receive the temporary aspect for the duration of the adventure. If it was a general prediction, it is considered to be a scene aspect on every scene for the duration of the adventure.

                  Enchanting Items: Magic can be used to create artifacts and talismans given time and reagents. This requires an Arcane Workshop of appropriate level. For details on how to go about that, check out the Gadgets and Gizmos chapter.

                  Mystic Vision: Magic can be used in place of Alertness when the test is arcane or supernatural in origin. It can also give the player an assessment to discover magical Aspects on an item or locale. Shamans call this skill "Second Sight" and  Sorcerers call it "Mystic Vision"

                  Prayer: The character can recite a prayer, setting at ease the hearts of any true believers who listen. This functions like the Medical Attention trapping of the Healing skill except that it can only remove Composure stress.

                  Feat: Diviner
                  The character is unusually adept at predicting the shape of future events. With this stunt, he may make two predictions per session, instead of the usual one.
                   
                  PRACTICAL MAGIC [Requires a Shaman, RunePriest/Lord or Sorcerer Aspect]
                  Feat: Evoke
                  You can conjure potent elemental or otherworldly forces to smite your enemies. You can use the Magic skill to attack at range like you were using the Ranged Weapons skill and a weapon. This damage may be either physical or mental, but you must pick one or the other when this Feat is learned.

                  Feat: Heal Wounds
                  When Healing a creature, you may use your Magic skill instead of Healing. Magical and mundane healing do not overlap, so if you are a competent healer you end up taking fewer penalties when performing consecutive heals.

                  Feat: Flight
                  You are able to float and move through the air with some concentration. You can use the Magic skill for movement actions, and reduce height based Barriers by 3. This is subject to the usual limits on movement during a scene. For a Fate Point, you can soar and fly with your magic. You use the Magic skill in place of Athletics, and for all movement based actions. This lasts for the whole scene or one attack (as per Evoke) against an enemy.

                  Feat: Second Sight
                  You are able to magically see the spirits of creatures and certain things. You can use your Magic skill as if it were Awareness for noticing people or spirits, and can see them even in total darkness.

                  Feat: Shield
                  You can magically shield yourself with the power of your deity, the spirits, or a spell. You can use your Magic skill as if it were Armor against all kind of magical and physical attacks. Magical Armor does not penalize other skills, but grants no extra consequences.

                  Feat: Telekinesis
                  You are able to move objects at a distance with the force of your will... and with some magic too, of course. You can use your Magic skill as if it were Might for the purposes of lifting or moving objects, or performing push maneuvers against foes. Each zone distant you use this stunt effectively adds 1 to the weight class of the object you wish to move. You can't directly attack with this Stunt- if you want to inflict stress, get Evoke.

                  SUMMONING [Requires a Shaman, RunePriest/Lord or Sorcerer Aspect]
                  Feat: Banishment
                  You can attempt to dismiss a presence, sending it back from whence it came or laying it to rest. Roll Magic versus Resolve. Shifts can be used to inflict Composure damage or create Borders. If you achieve Spin you may spend a Fate Point to force a concession. The type of creature to be banished must be picked when you get this feat (or selected during gameplay). Creature types include: Beasts, Birds, Ghosts, Spirits, Summoned Creatures, Undead, etc. You may select this feat more than once for multiple types of creatures.

                  Feat: Lesser Invocation
                  Functionally identical to the Minions stun for Leadership, save you conjure your unnatural servants from Beyond the Veils of Reality or whatnot. You may select this feat more than once for multiple types of creatures.

                  Feat: Grand Invocation [Requires Lesser Invocation]
                  Functionally identical to the Reinforcements stunt for Leadership.

                  SHAMANISM
                  [Requires a Shaman Aspect]
                  Feat: Charms and Fetishes
                  For the cost of a Fate Point you may imbue a narrow temporary Aspect upon a small, fragile physical item (such as “Proof Against Spiders” or “Shadowbane”). The individual carrying this item may at any time claim a free tag from that Aspect, after which the item loses its effectiveness.

                  Feat: Discorporation
                  You can enter and trance, and project your astral self outside your body. This discorporate form can fly very fast, and perceives the world with ghostly eyes, allowing it to see other invisible and ethereal presences and interact with them normally. It can see the physical world, but the view is hazy (adding 2 to the difficulty of Awareness rolls), and it can’t affect the physical world in any way save with Magic or Spirit Combat. Those with the Magic skill can detect a Discorportate Shaman with Soul Sight.

                  Feat: Fireblade
                  When engaged in melee combat, if you achieve Spin on your attack roll you may spend a Fate Point to set your enemy on fire. This fire has an intensity of 1 (check off your lowest open Health stress box each round starting on your next initiative) and burns until the combat reaches a conclusion or until they make a successful Resolve roll vs. a difficulty equal to your Magic Skill. This may be used with ranged weapons (Firearrow), but not blunts.

                  Feat: Self Resurrect
                  If the character is ever killed, but the body remains whole, the shaman can heal himself back to life from the spirit plane. The player then spends all of his remaining fate points but one,  (he must have at least two to do this), and may come back to life with all of his physical stress cleared and a single consequence to reflect the dangerous journey.

                  Feat: Spirit Companion
                  You have a companion with three advances. This companion is vulnerable to the flux of the spirit world, however, and must be summoned into your presence – either pay a fate point to get his immediate manifestation or take roughly a minute to roll Magic against a target equal to the companion’s quality as a more gentle summoning. This companion can never act in physical conflict, but may be visible to others; this may limit what skills he can use with the Skilled advance. He automatically gains the Independent advance as well.
                  The companion will need to take Skilled (Stealth) if he wishes to be undetectable on occasion; otherwise, visible or not, his presence in a location is an immediate call for people to roll Mysteries to notice something amiss. If you take this stunt a second time (the maximum) you may provide another three advances to your companion. If you have not yet increased the companion’s quality to at least Fair, you must spend one of your advances to do so.

                  THEISM [Requires a RunePriest/Lord Aspect]
                  Feat: Allied Spirit
                  You gain a Spirit bound on a cult weapon with three improvements. You must define at least the basic nature of the item, and one or two of the improvements, at the time you take this stunt. You may take this stunt several times to provide additional improvements to the same item.

                  Feat: Familiar
                  You gain a Fair Companion with a single free advance of your choice. Each additional time you select this Stunt, you gain a new Familiar, or add 2 advances to your old one.

                  Feat: Cult Secret
                  The player has access to a Cult Secret. Each cult -or subcult- has a different secret. To use a secret the player spends half of his remaining fate points, rounded up (he must have at least one to do this), and unleashes the terrible magic. A cult secret may be only used once per scene.
                  Example Cult Secrets include Chalana Arroy's Resurrection, Humakt's Sever Spirit, Orlanth's Thunderstorm and Mastakos' Teleport.
                  Since some uses of this Feat may alter the story in a negative way, the GM may declare the Secret will not work on a certain situation, and instead give the player a Fate Point by compelling his RuneLord aspect. This should only be used when the Feat disrupts gameplay.

                  Feat: Divine Intervention
                  The player can pray for a miracle. If the miracle is not too great (only one character may be reunited with his spirit, but a whole party may be teleported out of trouble), and it's in the god's sphere of influence, the player spends all of his remaining fate points but one,  (he must have at least two to do this) and the character gets the request. Divine Intervention also has the property of helping the character but not harming anyone else. It cannot be used to strike an enemy dead, for example. If the gods allowed their powers to be used in such fashion, they would soon be in direct conflict, violating the Great Compromise.  Also, Divine Intervention cannot foretell the future or change the past. Divine Intervention may only be asked for once per session.

                  Feat: TrueWeapon
                  For the cost of a Fate Point you may imbue your weapon with the power of your deity. Make a roll against a target of Mediocre; if it succeeds with at least one shift, you add a Bonus to the Stress inflicted on your next successful attacks. Every two shifts beyond the first improves this effect by one; for example, with five shifts, a character can add three stress boxes to his attack. This divine “charge” lasts only for the scene and if not used, dissipates.

                  SORCERY [Requires a Sorcerer Aspect]
                  Feat: Familiar
                  As the Theism Familiar Feat.

                  Feat: Artifact
                  As the Theism Allied Spirit Feat.

                  Feat: Exotic Spell
                  Functionally identical to Cult Secrets, this Feat may be taken multiple times to provide several Exotic Spells. Example spells are: Dominate, Multispelled versions of any Practical Magic (affects up to the character's Magic skill rating targets), Teleport, etc.

                  Feat: Rare Artifact
                  When a character begins an adventure, his artifact doesn’t need to be defined. Instead, at the point where he decides he needs it, he reveals the device, which can have twoimprovements. If a character has multiple feats, they can combine them to make one artifact with many improvements. Once the character has declared the artifact, he has it for the rest of the adventure.
                  There is, however, a downside…All Rare Artifacts inevitably have origins shrouded in darkness and mystery. In order to introduce such an artifact into play, the character must take on a temporary aspect which vaguely, colorfully references the secret (and unknown) past of the artifact. The GM may then incorporate its dark past into the storyline, hitting the character with compels as appropriate. If the player’s uninterested in having his impromptu artifact misbehaving on occasion, he may spend a fate point to avoid the temporary aspect’s placement. And that might just be a good idea. .. Beware the sinister secrets of the arcane!

                  Feat: Patron Saint: Gerlant Flamesword
                  As the Animism Fireblade Feat.


                  I think that's all for now!

                  Cheers,
                  Alex


                • ferguswindbag
                  My familiarity with FATE is mainly through Diaspora, so doubtless I m missing all sorts of precedents and nuances. What occurs to me, though, is that if you re
                  Message 8 of 29 , Feb 6, 2010
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                    My familiarity with FATE is mainly through Diaspora, so doubtless I'm missing all sorts of precedents and nuances.

                    What occurs to me, though, is that if you're planning on using any of the HQ material, it'd be easiest to take an approach that somewhat follows the structure of that magic system. Why not (for theists to start with) have a skill per Rune, in order to have a certain colour, and explicit scope of applicability. For a lot of magic-users, you'll only need one such skill anyway: Yinkin Rune for Yinkini, Motion Rune for what we're now supposed to call Larnsting with a straight face (i.e. Orlanth Adventurous), etc.

                    For Feats, use Aspects, perhaps given a unique Scope, to reflect that you'll be wanting to Tag them, but also that they can be appropriately used as Compells, to reflect identity challenges. (Other people challenging or reinforcing your identity with your god, in order to weaken your magic on the one hand; or on the other, manoeuvre you into doing something mythicly-appropriate-but-tactically-dumb.)
                  • bachelornewtling
                    ... I d use Faith to cover basic domestic & spirit magic, but put stunts to reflect other things. Initiate [stunt] should have Rune Aspects for your God [Death
                    Message 9 of 29 , Feb 6, 2010
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                      --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Alejandro Javier <alejandro.hart@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Well, i still have not found a magic system for SotC that does what
                      > i want.
                      >
                      > So far, magic will be a skill (one!) that does stuff on a fate-point
                      > expenditure basis unless you have the appropriate aspect (as in
                      > RuneLord, Sorcerer, Shaman, etc).

                      I'd use Faith to cover basic domestic & spirit magic, but put stunts to reflect other things.

                      Initiate [stunt] should have Rune Aspects for your God [Death & Truth for Humakt; Air & Mastery for Orlanth; etc] that grant access to those kind of effects.

                      Sorcery [Stunt[ would be a little more complex, not sure how I'd handle that.
                    • bachelornewtling
                      ... Looks good at first glance, I ll have a nice long read tomorrow. Bach
                      Message 10 of 29 , Feb 7, 2010
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                        --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Alejandro Javier <alejandro.hart@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Well, this is what i have (so far). Stunts are called "Feats" and
                        > have no requisites (not for magic, nor anything else). And that's
                        > preety much it!!!

                        Looks good at first glance, I'll have a nice long read tomorrow.

                        Bach
                      • Alejandro Javier
                        On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 5:54 AM, bachelornewtling ... Everything s on http://sites.google.com/site/faterq I GM ed yesterday, and nobody used magic for anything
                        Message 11 of 29 , Feb 8, 2010
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                          On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 5:54 AM, bachelornewtling <mrjibberjabber@...> wrote:


                          --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Alejandro Javier <alejandro.hart@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Well, this is what i have (so far). Stunts are called "Feats" and
                          > have no requisites (not for magic, nor anything else). And that's
                          > preety much it!!!

                          Looks good at first glance, I'll have a nice long read tomorrow.

                          Bach

                          Everything's on http://sites.google.com/site/faterq

                          I GM'ed yesterday, and nobody used magic for anything (the vingan used her healing stunt twice -use magic instead of the healing skill). And i think that was it :S

                          Cheers,
                          Alex
                        • ferguswindbag
                          ... This all (the faterq part, and the mix n match magic) implies to me what you re looking for is something more in the style of RuneQuest, which puts
                          Message 12 of 29 , Feb 8, 2010
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                            --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Alejandro Javier <alejandro.hart@...>
                            > Everything's on http://sites.google.com/site/faterq
                            >
                            > I GM'ed yesterday, and nobody used magic for anything (the vingan used her
                            > healing stunt twice -use magic instead of the healing skill). And i think
                            > that was it :S

                            This all (the "faterq" part, and the mix'n'match magic) implies to me what you're looking for is something more in the style of RuneQuest, which puts greater emphasis on the different "initiatory statuses", rather than HeroQuest, which puts greater emphasis on different deities worshipped.
                          • Alejandro Javier
                            ... Kind of, I kinda gave up on greg s antics of changing stuff after heroquest (1st ed), so im throwing the bits and pieces i like on the blender and see what
                            Message 13 of 29 , Feb 8, 2010
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                              On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 7:14 PM, ferguswindbag <ferguswindbag@...> wrote:

                              --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Alejandro Javier <alejandro.hart@...>
                              > Everything's on http://sites.google.com/site/faterq
                              >
                              > I GM'ed yesterday, and nobody used magic for anything (the vingan used her
                              > healing stunt twice -use magic instead of the healing skill). And i think
                              > that was it :S

                              This all (the "faterq" part, and the mix'n'match magic) implies to me what you're looking for is something more in the style of RuneQuest, which puts greater emphasis on the different "initiatory statuses", rather than HeroQuest, which puts greater emphasis on different deities worshipped.

                              Kind of, I kinda gave up on greg's antics of changing stuff after heroquest (1st ed), so im throwing the bits and pieces i like on the blender and see what it comes out.

                              Cheers,
                              Alex

                            • ferguswindbag
                              ... Which doesn t seem to be much that was in HW or HQ1, either. HQ2 certainly broadens magic, but it doesn t particularly change the by cult axis that d
                              Message 14 of 29 , Feb 8, 2010
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                                --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Alejandro Javier <alejandro.hart@...> wrote:
                                > Kind of, I kinda gave up on greg's antics of changing stuff after heroquest
                                > (1st ed), so im throwing the bits and pieces i like on the blender and see
                                > what it comes out.

                                Which doesn't seem to be much that was in HW or HQ1, either. HQ2 certainly broadens magic, but it doesn't particularly change the "by cult" axis that'd been established much earlier than that.

                                (To try to decode for the non-Gloranfans still paying attention at this stage: in the RQ era, you had more-or-less equal access to a good deal of "common" magic, regardless of whether you worshipped a warrior deity (such as Vinga), or an earth/healing one (like Ernalda or Chalana Arroy). In HW and HQ, the nature of your magic is much more strongly contingent on which cult you're in/what deity you worship.)
                              • Alejandro Javier
                                ... But it is! I limit the stunt choices and magic skill use on a cult basis!!! Cheers, Alex
                                Message 15 of 29 , Feb 8, 2010
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                                  On Mon, Feb 8, 2010 at 8:39 PM, ferguswindbag <ferguswindbag@...> wrote:

                                  --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Alejandro Javier <alejandro.hart@...> wrote:
                                  > Kind of, I kinda gave up on greg's antics of changing stuff after heroquest
                                  > (1st ed), so im throwing the bits and pieces i like on the blender and see
                                  > what it comes out.

                                  Which doesn't seem to be much that was in HW or HQ1, either.  HQ2 certainly broadens magic, but it doesn't particularly change the "by cult" axis that'd been established much earlier than that.

                                  (To try to decode for the non-Gloranfans still paying attention at this stage:  in the RQ era, you had more-or-less equal access to a good deal of "common" magic, regardless of whether you worshipped a warrior deity (such as Vinga), or an earth/healing one (like Ernalda or Chalana Arroy).  In HW and HQ, the nature of your magic is much more strongly contingent on which cult you're in/what deity you worship.)


                                  But it is! I limit the stunt choices and magic skill use on a cult basis!!!

                                  Cheers,
                                  Alex
                                • ferguswindbag
                                  ... I might be beyond the point of any detectable utility here, as my suggested approach seems to be almost the direct opposite of yours, and this is probably
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Feb 9, 2010
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                                    --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Alejandro Javier <alejandro.hart@...> wrote:
                                    > But it is! I limit the stunt choices and magic skill use on a cult basis!!!

                                    I might be beyond the point of any detectable utility here, as my suggested approach seems to be almost the direct opposite of yours, and this is probably much too Glorantha-specific for anyone else, but I'm still rather puzzled.

                                    If you're going for a RQ-like "everyone with a lick of sense will have healing magic" setup, why make healing contingent on a stunt? Isn't that then essentially a "stunt tax"? On the other, if you're going with an at all cult/deity/rune-specific system of any kind, why would Vinga "do" healing magic?
                                  • Alejandro Javier
                                    ... Well, vinga does healing magic only for tending wounds on the battlefield or such; you can always heal with a penalty like the time vinga bandaged heler
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Feb 9, 2010
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                                      On Tue, Feb 9, 2010 at 11:09 PM, ferguswindbag <ferguswindbag@...> wrote:

                                      --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Alejandro Javier <alejandro.hart@...> wrote:
                                      > But it is! I limit the stunt choices and magic skill use on a cult basis!!!

                                      I might be beyond the point of any detectable utility here, as my suggested approach seems to be almost the direct opposite of yours, and this is probably much too Glorantha-specific for anyone else, but I'm still rather puzzled.

                                      If you're going for a RQ-like "everyone with a lick of sense will have healing magic" setup, why make healing contingent on a stunt?  Isn't that then essentially a "stunt tax"?  On the other, if you're going with an at all cult/deity/rune-specific system of any kind, why would Vinga "do" healing magic?

                                      Well, vinga does healing magic only for tending wounds on the battlefield or such; you can always heal with a penalty "like the time vinga bandaged heler after the fight with the toadlicker spirit".
                                      With rules as they are i think it's actually way better to have healing as a skill than as a spell though. Magic still needs heavy tweaking, i just tried to make a playable skill-stunt thingie with not much time.

                                      Still, the healing stunt for magic could also be used by say... a shaman using a spirit-herb concoction balm thingie!

                                      But as you said, this is becoming too gloranthaish for the fate list lol!

                                      What i didn't like from your system was exactly the stunt tax (having your deity/rune/devotee-initiate-whatever as a stunt to perform magic; again, who wouldnt have it?).

                                      Same problem with skills as runes; too many skills to do stuff that can probably be donde better with other skills. Better have a catch-all skill that let you apply maneuvers and the "its magic" effect.

                                      Cheers,
                                      Alex
                                    • ferguswindbag
                                      ... Vinga does no healing magic at all. If you re playing it otherwise, you re rolling back Glorantha, not to HW or HQ1, but to back before there even *was* a
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Feb 9, 2010
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                                        --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Alejandro Javier <alejandro.hart@...> wrote:

                                        > Well, vinga does healing magic only for tending wounds on the battlefield or
                                        > such;

                                        Vinga does no healing magic at all. If you're playing it otherwise, you're rolling back Glorantha, not to HW or HQ1, but to back before there even *was* a Vinga...


                                        > What i didn't like from your system was exactly the stunt tax (having your
                                        > deity/rune/devotee-initiate-whatever as a stunt to perform magic; again, who
                                        > wouldnt have it?).

                                        I didn't suggest use of stunts at all, much less for initiatory status.


                                        > Same problem with skills as runes; too many skills to do stuff that can
                                        > probably be donde better with other skills. Better have a catch-all skill
                                        > that let you apply maneuvers and the "its magic" effect.

                                        Too many skills? Almost all magic-users would have one such skill (as I think I pointed out). No stunts. Doesn't sound in the least "taxing" to me!
                                      • Alejandro Javier
                                        On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 12:22 AM, ferguswindbag ... Why wouldn t you be able to improvise a feat that goes with your god s flavor? Vinga has ties to women and
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Feb 10, 2010
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                                          On Wed, Feb 10, 2010 at 12:22 AM, ferguswindbag <ferguswindbag@...> wrote:

                                          > Well, vinga does healing magic only for tending wounds on the battlefield or
                                          > such;

                                          Vinga does no healing magic at all.  If you're playing it otherwise, you're rolling back Glorantha, not to HW or HQ1, but to back before there even *was* a Vinga...

                                          Why wouldn't you be able to improvise a feat that goes with your god's flavor? Vinga has ties to women and stuff, after all. Im preety sure she would be able to at least heal herself!!!
                                          YGWV anyway (mine in this case)
                                           
                                          > What i didn't like from your system was exactly the stunt tax (having your
                                          > deity/rune/devotee-initiate-whatever as a stunt to perform magic; again, who
                                          > wouldnt have it?).

                                          I didn't suggest use of stunts at all, much less for initiatory status.

                                          Hmm.. i think i was thinking about some one else's suggestion. What do you suggest, 1 skill per rune? it end ups eating 2-3 skills (not that it's that bad).
                                          Maybe using FP to improvise new feats (tagging a devotee / runelord / whatever aspect) and using existing ones as maneuvers?

                                          Same stuff for sorcerers, one skill per grimoire, and use FP to "improvise" a new spell on the fly.

                                          Cheers,
                                          Alex
                                        • ferguswindbag
                                          ... Vinga _is_ a woman (deity, with women worshippers), but her entire raison d etre is access to male magic . So the scope of her runes or magic is
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Feb 11, 2010
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                                            --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Alejandro Javier <alejandro.hart@...> wrote:
                                            > Why wouldn't you be able to improvise a feat that goes with your god's
                                            > flavor? Vinga has ties to women and stuff, after all. Im preety sure she
                                            > would be able to at least heal herself!!!

                                            Vinga _is_ a woman (deity, with women worshippers), but her entire raison d'etre is "access to 'male' magic". So the scope of her "runes" or "magic" is essentially identical to Orlanth's. An individual _Vingan_ might have access to healing via "common magic", or some other cult she's a member of, but that's rather different.

                                            > YGWV anyway (mine in this case)

                                            Well, of course! And I don't for a moment wish to suggest that you shouldn't be. Just that it's surely better to to be explicit about where you're "converting", and where you're "varying". (And/or, from which incarnation of several decades worth of Gloranthan to-ing and fro-ing. (Though to be somewhat fair to Greg, "everyone has access to healing in RQ" was probably more of a Steve Perrinism, and/or a trait selected for in being able to have a character survive for more than one session in that system.)


                                            > Hmm.. i think i was thinking about some one else's suggestion. What do you
                                            > suggest, 1 skill per rune? it end ups eating 2-3 skills (not that it's that
                                            > bad).

                                            In HQ (and this *is* something they changed with HQ2) the idea was that the runes were the old-fashioned "runes everybody'd heard of", like "death" and "motion", rather than HW's "third type of alynx from the left" and "slightly different variation on earth and healing from the previous half-dozen writeups" sorts of makey-uppy "runes". So if you're an Orlanth Adenturous (or indeed, Vinga Adventurous) type, you only need the Motion rune to cover that entire aspect. But yes, up to three as written, if you wanted to be a total generalist, or one of those annoying mystical types wanting to achieve "union with Great Orlanth".


                                            > Maybe using FP to improvise new feats (tagging a devotee / runelord /
                                            > whatever aspect) and using existing ones as maneuvers?

                                            TBH, I think "improvisation of feats" might be an instance where HQ jargon obscures more than it reveals. If you don't have a written feat, in effect one is just using one's magic (or rune, or affinity) rating directly. If using an written feat, it'd be invokeable/taggable (depending on how you rationalise its scope) for the usual FP. Though I'm sure there will be cases where it makes sense to manoeuvre and free-tag.


                                            > Same stuff for sorcerers, one skill per grimoire, and use FP to "improvise"
                                            > a new spell on the fly.

                                            To be honest I don't have a great handle on how to handle sorcerers, in any game system. Either the supposed differences between them and theists get leached out entirely, or you end up making them much less fun to play, by trying to impose distinctions that end up being too restrictive. (Such as the infamous "no improvising spells" one.)
                                          • Alejandro Javier
                                            ... I kinda hate the new batch of runes. They can only be described as WTF! . I also like the runelord status from RQ, though i approach initiation / lay
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Feb 11, 2010
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                                              In HQ (and this *is* something they changed with HQ2) the idea was that the runes were the old-fashioned "runes everybody'd heard of", like "death" and "motion", rather than HW's "third type of alynx from the left" and "slightly different variation on earth and healing from the previous half-dozen writeups" sorts of makey-uppy "runes".  So if you're an Orlanth Adenturous (or indeed, Vinga Adventurous) type, you only need the Motion rune to cover that entire aspect.  But yes, up to three as written, if you wanted to be a total generalist, or one of those annoying mystical types wanting to achieve "union with Great Orlanth".

                                              I kinda hate the new batch of runes. They can only be described as "WTF!".
                                              I also like the runelord status from RQ, though i approach initiation / lay membership as per HQ.
                                              Most people do not follow a specific deity but the pantheon. The runelords are devotees that "act like the god would", but any "im good with magic" aspect qualifies (the rest is fluff)
                                               
                                              TBH, I think "improvisation of feats" might be an instance where HQ jargon obscures more than it reveals.  If you don't have a written feat, in effect one is just using one's magic (or rune, or affinity) rating directly.  If using an written feat, it'd be invokeable/taggable (depending on how you rationalise its scope) for the usual FP.  Though I'm sure there will be cases where it makes sense to manoeuvre and free-tag.

                                              From a fate point of view, the skill itself would be the affinity, and specific feats where you excel at would be stunts (or even cult secrets).
                                              So your orlanthi can do preety much what an orlanthi is suppossed to do, but if you want to shoot lightning or flight you need to have a stunt!

                                               
                                              > Same stuff for sorcerers, one skill per grimoire, and use FP to "improvise"
                                              > a new spell on the fly.

                                              To be honest I don't have a great handle on how to handle sorcerers, in any game system.  Either the supposed differences between them and theists get leached out entirely, or you end up making them much less fun to play, by trying to impose distinctions that end up being too restrictive.  (Such as the infamous "no improvising spells" one.)

                                              My problem with em is that they use the same rules (since magic is NOT really an important part of the game, at least not mechanically), but have almost no restrictions on the effects they can have. So having one skill per grimoire sounds good, but i want them to be able to do stuff, so "the grimoire of fiery burning" would let you do whatever fireish, and "the grimoire of jorgen's light" would let you do whatever light related, and so on.
                                              Not having sorcerers be able to improvise always sucked (having one spell per skill to cast without the tome also sucks)

                                              Cheers,
                                              Alex
                                            • ferguswindbag
                                              ... I can personally think of other descriptions, and WTF! seems a little too broad a comment to reply to in specifics. :) For purposes of this discussion, I
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Feb 11, 2010
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                                                --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, Alejandro Javier <alejandro.hart@...> wrote:
                                                > I kinda hate the new batch of runes. They can only be described as "WTF!".

                                                I can personally think of other descriptions, and "WTF!" seems a little too broad a comment to reply to in specifics. :)

                                                For purposes of this discussion, I think the only important HW/HQ1 -> HQ2 differences to note are a) magic is much broader; and b) feats are much more detailed.


                                                > Most people do not follow a specific deity but the pantheon.

                                                My understanding is that that's less true in Sartar than it is elsewhere (say, Peloria), though in any case "follow" is relative. Most people with what we'd consider effective personal magic get most of it from one deity, at any rate.


                                                > From a fate point of view, the skill itself would be the affinity, and
                                                > specific feats where you excel at would be stunts (or even cult secrets).
                                                > So your orlanthi can do preety much what an orlanthi is suppossed to do, but
                                                > if you want to shoot lightning or flight you need to have a stunt!

                                                Shooting lightning pretty much *is* what I expect an Orlanth Thunderous initiate to be able to do. Enumerating everything some possible initiate/devotee/rune lord is able to accomplish as stunts means that firstly, you'll be having a whole lot of them, and secondly, because it frames things in terms of "can and can't do", which in a lot of cases is going to be both difficult and counterproductive. Hence, I think, the attraction of casting Feats as aspects. That captures the idea that acting like your god (or more specifically, in a particular heropath) is magically powerful (tagging for a bonus), but also that it might serve to coerce the character to do so (someone else uses it as a compel).


                                                > So having one skill per
                                                > grimoire sounds good, but i want them to be able to do stuff, so "the
                                                > grimoire of fiery burning" would let you do whatever fireish, and "the
                                                > grimoire of jorgen's light" would let you do whatever light related, and so on.

                                                But that's essentially exactly how theism "works", so it's not really doing anything to differentiate the two, colour-wise. (Though I'm not sure I have a good answer to that.)


                                                > Not having sorcerers be able to improvise always sucked (having one spell
                                                > per skill to cast without the tome also sucks)

                                                One skill per spell would certainly be excessive; one skill per grimoire seems sensible. For actual spells, the question is do you want to use a principle of "enumerate them all before they're used" (however you model that in play, exactly), or do you want to approach it on a basis of "they're in theory fixed, but not worthwhile listing exhaustively". (As one might treat an engineer's set of tools, for example.)
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