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Re: Secondary pyramids

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  • stabbysideways
    I like it. Depending on the game, I might start with a Martial Training stunt, representing a sort of basic training in swordplay, which is a prerequisite for
    Message 1 of 14 , Sep 12, 2008
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      I like it. Depending on the game, I might start with a Martial
      Training stunt, representing a sort of basic training in swordplay,
      which is a prerequisite for School stunts. Each School stunt gives
      you access to a number of techniques equal to your Weapons skill, or
      Weapons -X, depending on how difficult/good the school is. In fact,
      Weapons -X is pretty good as a default -- you have to be a Great
      fencer, say, to learn anything from Bonnetti if the Bonnetti School
      gives you a number of techniques equal to Weapons -3.

      What's that you say? That would mean coming up with a bunch of
      special rules exceptions, which is one of the potential problems I
      cited with the secondary skill pyramid idea? Well... this seems more
      fun, somehow. I don't know what to tell you. *shrug*

      I'd probably simplify the schools as essentially being Personal
      Gadgets: Each technique is a +1 in a fairly narrow circumstance, a +2
      in a specific circumstance, a skill substitution, or some sort of
      special effect. Each technique could consist of one or more of these
      components, with each school getting X number of components' worth of
      techniques -- so some have only a few techniques, but they're really
      good, and some have a lot, but they're all pretty basic. That's if
      you felt a need to balance the schools against one another, I guess.

      What I really like about this is the implication that there would be
      a finite list of fencing-related aspects imposed by these techniques,
      which makes them very modular. E.g., Thibault grants a bonus vs. an
      attacker with the "Forceful Assault" aspect, but Capo Ferro isn't the
      only "Forceful Assault" attack -- you can stick that on anything
      appropriate. Neat.

      --Mike


      --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, "Michael McLawhorn" <mhoram@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > All this discussion makes me feel that the proper way to do this
      isn't with
      > a skill pyramid,
      > which reflects that some skills are prioritized over others, but
      rather with
      > a Stunt tree,
      > possibly discounted, and opened up with a stunt for learning a
      given school.
      >
      > Then you can have each of the stunts have some kind of 'special
      maneuver'
      > associated with them
      > that possibly create fragile aspects that other stunts can tag for
      free.
      >
      > e.g.
      >
      > Stunt: Bonetti's defense:
      > Create a block against incoming attacks equivalent to your success
      on a
      > swordsman roll, as well as the aspect 'Agile Defence'.
      >
      > Bonetti's defense is weakest against an opponent that can circle
      you, so
      > impediments
      > to movement, such as aspect 'Rocky Terrain' similar provides a +2
      to the
      > block strength.
      >
      > Stunt: Capo Ferro
      > Capo Ferro is a powerful attack technique for penetrating combat
      blocks,
      > ignoring up to 2 levels of block from a target with aspect 'Agile
      Defence'.
      > The attacker gains aspect 'Forceful Assault' until their next
      action.
      >
      > Stunt: Thibault
      > This defensive manuever can be used to interupt an attack by giving
      up
      > ground.
      > For 2 FP or by taking the Aspect 'Cornered' the defender can ignore
      one
      > attack
      > from an opponent using 'Forceful Assault'.
      >
      > Discounting these feats makes it possible to have either a high
      level of
      > power in one school
      > or pick and choose from a variety of schools.
      >
    • Michael McLawhorn
      Apologies by the way to Princess Bride, which was the only film example I could think where people made a big deal out of which fencing techniques the
      Message 2 of 14 , Sep 12, 2008
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        Apologies by the way to Princess Bride, which was the only film example I could think
        where people made a big deal out of which fencing techniques the combatants were using.

        The specialized tags: Forceful Assault, Agile Defence, etc, are the meat, and most of the techniques
        can tag, target, compel, or create these aspects. (Also allowing for the creation of  new techniques).

        My naive analysis of what you should be able to do is as follows:

        Attacks that also create tags.

        Blocks that create tags that are in some way superior to a standard block action with the base skill.

        Out-of-sequence response actions that require FP  (denfensive actions out of turn or attacksthat are triggered by someone else's actions)

        Maneuvers that can also cause stress. (different from an attack that create a tag, in that it could
        cause stress on everyone in an area or with a particular tag)

        Enhanced (tag targetting) versions of 'full defense'

        You might want to think about fragile tags for range increments. i.e.
        (Inside his guard.  Out of reach.  Cornered. Tight quarters.  )

        So, just a few ideas:  You could have a pair dagger technique that gains bonuses in 'tight quarters' but where it's easy to stay 'Out of Reach'.  Or a swashbuckly/piratey technique where acrobatic actions can be taken out of sequence.  Or, to break genre, a Jackie Chan-esque technique for tagging an environment full of clutter to get the beneficial aspect 'Well armed'.

        It could be as barouque or detailed as you like.

        Good job, FATE 3.0 people, you made a hella-flexible system.
        to avoid harm. 



        On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 5:10 PM, stabbysideways <devlin1@...> wrote:

        I like it. Depending on the game, I might start with a Martial
        Training stunt, representing a sort of basic training in swordplay,
        which is a prerequisite for School stunts. Each School stunt gives
        you access to a number of techniques equal to your Weapons skill, or
        Weapons -X, depending on how difficult/good the school is. In fact,
        Weapons -X is pretty good as a default -- you have to be a Great
        fencer, say, to learn anything from Bonnetti if the Bonnetti School
        gives you a number of techniques equal to Weapons -3.

        What's that you say? That would mean coming up with a bunch of
        special rules exceptions, which is one of the potential problems I
        cited with the secondary skill pyramid idea? Well... this seems more
        fun, somehow. I don't know what to tell you. *shrug*

        I'd probably simplify the schools as essentially being Personal
        Gadgets: Each technique is a +1 in a fairly narrow circumstance, a +2
        in a specific circumstance, a skill substitution, or some sort of
        special effect. Each technique could consist of one or more of these
        components, with each school getting X number of components' worth of
        techniques -- so some have only a few techniques, but they're really
        good, and some have a lot, but they're all pretty basic. That's if
        you felt a need to balance the schools against one another, I guess.

        What I really like about this is the implication that there would be
        a finite list of fencing-related aspects imposed by these techniques,
        which makes them very modular. E.g., Thibault grants a bonus vs. an
        attacker with the "Forceful Assault" aspect, but Capo Ferro isn't the
        only "Forceful Assault" attack -- you can stick that on anything
        appropriate. Neat.

        --Mike

        --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, "Michael McLawhorn" <mhoram@...>
        wrote:


        >
        > All this discussion makes me feel that the proper way to do this
        isn't with
        > a skill pyramid,
        > which reflects that some skills are prioritized over others, but
        rather with
        > a Stunt tree,
        > possibly discounted, and opened up with a stunt for learning a
        given school.
        >
        > Then you can have each of the stunts have some kind of 'special
        maneuver'
        > associated with them
        > that possibly create fragile aspects that other stunts can tag for
        free.
        >
        > e.g.
        >
        > Stunt: Bonetti's defense:
        > Create a block against incoming attacks equivalent to your success
        on a
        > swordsman roll, as well as the aspect 'Agile Defence'.
        >
        > Bonetti's defense is weakest against an opponent that can circle
        you, so
        > impediments
        > to movement, such as aspect 'Rocky Terrain' similar provides a +2
        to the
        > block strength.
        >
        > Stunt: Capo Ferro
        > Capo Ferro is a powerful attack technique for penetrating combat
        blocks,
        > ignoring up to 2 levels of block from a target with aspect 'Agile
        Defence'.
        > The attacker gains aspect 'Forceful Assault' until their next
        action.
        >
        > Stunt: Thibault
        > This defensive manuever can be used to interupt an attack by giving
        up
        > ground.
        > For 2 FP or by taking the Aspect 'Cornered' the defender can ignore
        one
        > attack
        > from an opponent using 'Forceful Assault'.
        >
        > Discounting these feats makes it possible to have either a high
        level of
        > power in one school
        > or pick and choose from a variety of schools.
        >




        --
        The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
        - HL Mencken
      • Marc Reyes
        Wow. @_@ After reading this discussion, my opinion on the secondary skill pyramid has been reversed. If there s one thing I learned from reading this
        Message 3 of 14 , Sep 12, 2008
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          Wow. @_@ After reading this discussion, my opinion on the secondary skill pyramid has been reversed.

          If there's one thing I learned from reading this discussion is that complexity is not always a good thing. Now I'm looking at all of my custom rules with a new light and thinking "will this mechanic improve the gameplay experience at the table?"

          Good things, good things. ^^

          Marc.
        • stabbysideways
          I still think it s an interesting idea, but only if each secondary skill does something significantly different from the others. That s why I can see it
          Message 4 of 14 , Sep 12, 2008
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            I still think it's an interesting idea, but only if each secondary
            skill does something significantly different from the others. That's
            why I can see it working for magic (if you can get past the arbitrary
            nature of the pyramid). So... more ideas, please! Keep 'em coming!

            I know what you mean about rethinking rules changes, though. FATE is
            easily tweaked and hard to break, but I think it works best as a
            narrative game rather than a simulationist one.

            --Mike


            --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, "Marc Reyes" <isantao@...> wrote:
            >
            > Wow. @_@ After reading this discussion, my opinion on the secondary
            skill
            > pyramid has been reversed.
            >
            > If there's one thing I learned from reading this discussion is that
            > complexity is not always a good thing. Now I'm looking at all of my
            custom
            > rules with a new light and thinking "will this mechanic improve the
            gameplay
            > experience at the table?"
            >
            > Good things, good things. ^^
            >
            > Marc.
            >
          • bachelornewtling
            As opposed to the secondary pyramid, what is you made various maneuvers linked to other skills: a feint is a Deceit modified attack, a lunge is an Athletics
            Message 5 of 14 , Sep 12, 2008
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              As opposed to the secondary pyramid, what is you made various maneuvers
              linked to other skills: a feint is a Deceit modified attack, a lunge is
              an Athletics modified attack, and so on.

              There are already mechanics for this, but I'd add somethign extra, such
              that Swordsmen could take a simple Stunt [Gee, I almost typed Feat
              then] that allows them access to a small handful of special maneuvers
              when their weapon skill is modified with a particular secondary skill.

              Lets say each Swordsman skill has access to three particular secondary
              skill tricks that apply specific fragile aspects to a friend or foe
              when used. In order to access a wide vaiety of skills, the swordsman
              would need to learn several different schools of swordsmanship,
              requiring several stunts.

              Feedback?

              Bach
            • Esterion
              ... Well, if you wanted to emulate D&Desque spells(or Vancian, if you like), you could say that your MAGIC skill grants you access to a spell pyramid that tops
              Message 6 of 14 , Sep 13, 2008
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                --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, "stabbysideways" <devlin1@...> wrote:
                >
                > I still think it's an interesting idea, but only if each secondary
                > skill does something significantly different from the others. That's
                > why I can see it working for magic (if you can get past the arbitrary
                > nature of the pyramid). So... more ideas, please! Keep 'em coming!

                Well, if you wanted to emulate D&Desque spells(or Vancian, if you
                like), you could say that your MAGIC skill grants you access to a
                spell pyramid that tops at your skill level, and each spell is like a
                skill that you can only have at a certain level(say Magic Missile is
                always Average+1, [copyright_infringement]'s Black Tentacles is always
                Good+3, and Wish is always Superb+5(or maybe Legendary+6)). That way,
                spells have a potency that's tied to their "level" and not to the
                caster's skill, which eventually could "complement" certain spells
                like Magic Missile, so that if your Fair or better at Magic, your
                effective MM is at +2.
              • stabbysideways
                ... SOLD! That s pretty good, right there. And the height of your secondary pyramid is limited by your Magic skill, right? So if Wish is a Superb spell, you
                Message 7 of 14 , Sep 13, 2008
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                  --- In FateRPG@yahoogroups.com, "Esterion" <Esterion@...> wrote:
                  > Well, if you wanted to emulate D&Desque spells(or Vancian, if you
                  > like), you could say that your MAGIC skill grants you access to a
                  > spell pyramid that tops at your skill level, and each spell is like a
                  > skill that you can only have at a certain level(say Magic Missile is
                  > always Average+1, [copyright_infringement]'s Black Tentacles is always
                  > Good+3, and Wish is always Superb+5(or maybe Legendary+6)). That way,
                  > spells have a potency that's tied to their "level" and not to the
                  > caster's skill, which eventually could "complement" certain spells
                  > like Magic Missile, so that if your Fair or better at Magic, your
                  > effective MM is at +2.

                  SOLD!

                  That's pretty good, right there.

                  And the height of your secondary pyramid is limited by your Magic
                  skill, right? So if Wish is a Superb spell, you can't get it unless
                  your Magic skill is also at least Superb.

                  (This makes me want to change Fantastic to Excellent, and Epic to Most
                  Excellent, so I can have a Most Excellent Prismatic Spray....)

                  --Mike
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