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Re: [Fantasy_Books] This month I have been mostly readin'...

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  • Dale Jory
    My most recent reads have been Toll the Hounds by Steven Erikson which I did struggle to get through it, the tempo and style (very slow) was for me a lot
    Message 1 of 18 , Oct 25, 2008
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      My most recent reads have been "Toll the Hounds" by Steven Erikson which I did struggle to get through it, the tempo and style (very slow) was for me a lot different to the earlier books in the series. The ending was unexpected and did redeem the first two thirds. Toll the Hounds is the eighth book in the Malazan series and continues some of the story lines from earlier books but overall is the weakest in the series.

      The other book is "In Fury Born" by David Weber which I found easy to read and it has been a while since I have read a sci-fi story. The story is about a woman who has wanted to be a soldier from an early age and the battles that she is involved in until she is betrayed and then seeks vengeance.


      Dale

      --- On Sat, 10/18/08, craig herbertson <craigherbertson@...> wrote:

      > From: craig herbertson <craigherbertson@...>
      > Subject: Re: [Fantasy_Books] This month I have been mostly readin'...
      > To: Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Saturday, October 18, 2008, 2:09 AM
      > Jack Vance's Lyonesse
      > Moonmen erb
      > been doing a lot of writing for the Fourth Black book of
      > Horror,
      >
      > Craig
      >
      >
      > Craig
      >
      > Address: Alte Bahnhof Str 167, 44892 Bochum
      > handi: 0177 474 5718 Fax: 0234
      > 5414884craigherbertson.com
      > contact@...
      >
      > --- On Fri, 17/10/08, Leigh L. <leighlo@...>
      > wrote:
      > From: Leigh L. <leighlo@...>
      > Subject: [Fantasy_Books] This month I have been mostly
      > readin'...
      > To: Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Friday, 17 October, 2008, 1:09 PM
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Just a few thoughts on recent reads to try to
      > spur a bit of life back
      >
      > into the list and outweigh the spam messages :)
      >
      >
      >
      > The Lies of Locke Lamora - Scott Lynch
      >
      > Multiple recommendations on this list swayed me into
      > reading this,
      >
      > and I found it... good, but not great. The past/present
      > structure is
      >
      > interesting, the dialogue classy and the setting
      > beautifully
      >
      > realised, but the plot drags almost unbearably for the
      > first few
      >
      > chapters and doesn't really pick up until the halfway
      > point when the
      >
      > Grey King is introduced. It's also a bit implausible
      > just how much
      >
      > punishment Lynch's characters can take and keep on
      > fightin'. Still,
      >
      > it did get me invested enough by the end to care about the
      > sequel.
      >
      >
      >
      > Odd and the Frost Giants - Neil Gaiman
      >
      > Very brief novel (more of a short story) written for World
      > Book Day.
      >
      > It's a lighthearted take on Norse legend with the feel
      > of a parable
      >
      > or fable, though I'm not sure what exactly the message
      > was. Beyond
      >
      > that there's nothing particularly bad about the
      > execution, although
      >
      > the length doesn't allow for any real depth of plot or
      > character, or
      >
      > for the unmistakable Gaiman magic to shine through.
      >
      >
      >
      > Infernal Devices - Philip Reeve
      >
      > Third in the sequence that began with Mortal Engines, and
      > sadly not a
      >
      > patch on either that or the second book, Predator's
      > Gold. Reeve seems
      >
      > to have lost interest in both the story and the readers to
      > the point
      >
      > where he's either sidelining or actively demonising his
      > previous
      >
      > characters, and the new ones just don't match up. It
      > didn't feel like
      >
      > he enjoyed writing this at all, and the feeling can't
      > help but rub
      >
      > off after a while. Still, maybe it's all a big setup
      > and everything
      >
      > that felt wrong about this volume is neatly resolved in the
      > final
      >
      > book...?
      >
      >
      >
      > Any counter-opinions? Anybody else read anything worth
      > mentioning
      >
      > lately?
      >
      >
      >
      > - Leigh
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Send instant messages to your online friends
      > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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    • Sharon
      Dale writes: The other book is In Fury Born by David Weber which I found easy to read and it has been a while since I have read a sci-fi story. The
      Message 2 of 18 , Oct 25, 2008
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        Dale writes:

        The other book is "In Fury Born" by David Weber which I found easy to read
        and it has been a while since I have read a sci-fi story. >>>

        The original book "Path of the Fury" is on my bookshelf, one of my well-loved re-reads. I have not read the expanded version, In Fury Born, although every time I get to the end of "Path" I wish he had ... or would ... write a sequel.

        Sharon in KY

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Dale Jory
        ... After I finished it I went looking for a sequel as well but nothing yet. There is certainty potential for a sequel but I did like the fact that the story
        Message 3 of 18 , Oct 26, 2008
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          --- On Sat, 10/25/08, Sharon <sportpony@...> wrote:

          > From: Sharon <sportpony@...>
          > Subject: Re: [Fantasy_Books] This month I have been mostly readin'...
          > To: Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Saturday, October 25, 2008, 11:09 PM
          > Dale writes:
          >
          > The other book is "In Fury Born" by David Weber
          > which I found easy to read
          > and it has been a while since I have read a sci-fi story.
          > >>>
          >
          > The original book "Path of the Fury" is on my
          > bookshelf, one of my well-loved re-reads. I have not read
          > the expanded version, In Fury Born, although every time I
          > get to the end of "Path" I wish he had ... or
          > would ... write a sequel.
          >
          > Sharon in KY
          >

          After I finished it I went looking for a sequel as well but nothing yet. There is certainty potential for a sequel but I did like the fact that the story could be read as a standalone. I am going to try and track down a copy of "Path of the Fury" just to see what had been changed or added to.

          Dale
        • Sharon
          am going to try and track down a copy of Path of the Fury just to see what had been changed or added to. Dale I haven t read the expanded version
          Message 4 of 18 , Oct 27, 2008
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            <<> am going to try and track down a copy of "Path of the Fury" just to see what had been changed or added to. Dale >>>

            I haven't read the "expanded" version so not sure where that started or if there was more detail in later sections but "Path" starts with the raid on the family homestead which killed all of her family and "introduced" her to the Fury.

            Sharon in KY



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Leigh L.
            ... Really? Hmm, that s a shame. I only recently realised how far behind I ve Fallen (ahaha) with the Malazan books, and had hoped to address that soon. I read
            Message 5 of 18 , Oct 27, 2008
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              > My most recent reads have been "Toll the Hounds" by Steven Erikson
              > which I did struggle to get through it, the tempo and style (very
              > slow) was for me a lot different to the earlier books in the
              > series. The ending was unexpected and did redeem the first two
              > thirds. Toll the Hounds is the eighth book in the Malazan series
              > and continues some of the story lines from earlier books but
              > overall is the weakest in the series.

              Really? Hmm, that's a shame. I only recently realised how far behind
              I've Fallen (ahaha) with the Malazan books, and had hoped to address
              that soon. I read Midnight Tides earlier in the year, and while it
              didn't really measure up to previous books, I've made enough of an
              investment in the series by now that it'll take more than one
              slightly shaky effort to scare me off - from what I've heard things
              pick up again with The Bonehunters and Reaper's Gale, but hearing
              that Toll the Hounds is the weakest yet doesn't bode well this close
              to the end of the series.

              Ah well, it'll have to wait anyway as I've just started catching up
              on China Mieville with The Scar, and that's not exactly a compact
              little volume either...

              - Leigh
            • craig herbertson
              rereading a lot of Jack Vance - Gray Prince at the moment Craig Address: Alte Bahnhof Str 167, 44892 Bochum handi: 0177 474 5718 Fax: 0234
              Message 6 of 18 , Oct 27, 2008
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                rereading a lot of Jack Vance - Gray Prince at the moment


                Craig

                Address: Alte Bahnhof Str 167, 44892 Bochum
                handi: 0177 474 5718 Fax: 0234 5414884craigherbertson.com           contact@...

                --- On Mon, 27/10/08, Leigh L. <leighlo@...> wrote:
                From: Leigh L. <leighlo@...>
                Subject: [Fantasy_Books] Re: This month I have been mostly readin'...
                To: Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Monday, 27 October, 2008, 2:52 PM











                > My most recent reads have been "Toll the Hounds" by Steven Erikson

                > which I did struggle to get through it, the tempo and style (very

                > slow) was for me a lot different to the earlier books in the

                > series. The ending was unexpected and did redeem the first two

                > thirds. Toll the Hounds is the eighth book in the Malazan series

                > and continues some of the story lines from earlier books but

                > overall is the weakest in the series.



                Really? Hmm, that's a shame. I only recently realised how far behind

                I've Fallen (ahaha) with the Malazan books, and had hoped to address

                that soon. I read Midnight Tides earlier in the year, and while it

                didn't really measure up to previous books, I've made enough of an

                investment in the series by now that it'll take more than one

                slightly shaky effort to scare me off - from what I've heard things

                pick up again with The Bonehunters and Reaper's Gale, but hearing

                that Toll the Hounds is the weakest yet doesn't bode well this close

                to the end of the series.



                Ah well, it'll have to wait anyway as I've just started catching up

                on China Mieville with The Scar, and that's not exactly a compact

                little volume either...



                - Leigh





























                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • William Marnoch
                ... I d disagree that Toll The Hounds is the weakest in the series, although I wouldn t say it was the best either. It does have a similar structure to House
                Message 7 of 18 , Oct 27, 2008
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                  On 27 Oct 2008 at 14:52, Leigh L. wrote:

                  >
                  > > My most recent reads have been "Toll the Hounds" by Steven Erikson
                  > > which I did struggle to get through it, the tempo and style (very
                  > > slow) was for me a lot different to the earlier books in the
                  > > series. The ending was unexpected and did redeem the first two
                  > > thirds. Toll the Hounds is the eighth book in the Malazan series
                  > > and continues some of the story lines from earlier books but
                  > > overall is the weakest in the series.
                  >
                  > Really? Hmm, that's a shame. I only recently realised how far behind
                  > I've Fallen (ahaha) with the Malazan books, and had hoped to address
                  > that soon. I read Midnight Tides earlier in the year, and while it
                  > didn't really measure up to previous books, I've made enough of an
                  > investment in the series by now that it'll take more than one
                  > slightly shaky effort to scare me off - from what I've heard things
                  > pick up again with The Bonehunters and Reaper's Gale, but hearing
                  > that Toll the Hounds is the weakest yet doesn't bode well this close
                  > to the end of the series.
                  >
                  > Ah well, it'll have to wait anyway as I've just started catching up
                  > on China Mieville with The Scar, and that's not exactly a compact
                  > little volume either...
                  >
                  > - Leigh

                  I'd disagree that Toll The Hounds is the weakest in the series, although I wouldn't say it
                  was the best either. It does have a similar structure to House of Chains, The
                  Bonehunters and Reaper's Gale in that there's a lot of build-up before a couple of
                  hundred pages of action at the end. I'd probably rate it above Bonehunters and Reaper's
                  Gale since I felt the conclusion in TTH was more satisfying than in the previous two
                  books where I felt some elements of the ending were a bit flawed. Overall I did like Toll
                  The Hounds, although I still have to question whether it really needed to be 900+ pages
                  long.



                  --
                  William Marnoch
                  william@...
                  http://www.voidhawk.com/ - Film and Book Reviews
                • Phoebe Matthews
                  This week I finished Lilith Saintcrow s Night Shift first book in her new Jill Kismit series, and now I m reading the second, Hunter s Prayer. I liked the
                  Message 8 of 18 , Nov 10, 2008
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                    This week I finished Lilith Saintcrow's "Night Shift" first book in her new Jill Kismit series,
                    and now I'm reading the second, "Hunter's Prayer." I liked the first one, but I think the
                    second is better as the characters become more alive. Pace is always fast. (Mudflat series
                    - http://phoebematthews.com)
                    --- In Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com, "Leigh L." <leighlo@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Just a few thoughts on recent reads to try to spur a bit of life back
                    > into the list and outweigh the spam messages :)
                    >
                    > The Lies of Locke Lamora - Scott Lynch
                    > Multiple recommendations on this list swayed me into reading this,
                    > and I found it... good, but not great. The past/present structure is
                    > interesting, the dialogue classy and the setting beautifully
                    > realised, but the plot drags almost unbearably for the first few
                    > chapters and doesn't really pick up until the halfway point when the
                    > Grey King is introduced. It's also a bit implausible just how much
                    > punishment Lynch's characters can take and keep on fightin'. Still,
                    > it did get me invested enough by the end to care about the sequel.
                    >
                    > Odd and the Frost Giants - Neil Gaiman
                    > Very brief novel (more of a short story) written for World Book Day.
                    > It's a lighthearted take on Norse legend with the feel of a parable
                    > or fable, though I'm not sure what exactly the message was. Beyond
                    > that there's nothing particularly bad about the execution, although
                    > the length doesn't allow for any real depth of plot or character, or
                    > for the unmistakable Gaiman magic to shine through.
                    >
                    > Infernal Devices - Philip Reeve
                    > Third in the sequence that began with Mortal Engines, and sadly not a
                    > patch on either that or the second book, Predator's Gold. Reeve seems
                    > to have lost interest in both the story and the readers to the point
                    > where he's either sidelining or actively demonising his previous
                    > characters, and the new ones just don't match up. It didn't feel like
                    > he enjoyed writing this at all, and the feeling can't help but rub
                    > off after a while. Still, maybe it's all a big setup and everything
                    > that felt wrong about this volume is neatly resolved in the final
                    > book...?
                    >
                    > Any counter-opinions? Anybody else read anything worth mentioning
                    > lately?
                    >
                    > - Leigh
                    >
                  • Sharon
                    Message 9 of 18 , Nov 10, 2008
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                      << Anybody else read anything worth mentioning
                      > lately? - Leigh >>>


                      Since the third of the Bujold "Sharing Knife" I've been in a real reading slump. However I picked up the newest Mercedes Lackey book "Foundation" ... apparantly the first of a new "Companions" series ... and sat up until waaay past my usual bedtime so I could finish it.

                      I liked her other series in this world, I mean let's face it, a horse person is going to like telepathic horses with human level intelligence, though I think this may be my favorite of any of them so far ...

                      Sharon in KY



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • kara fitzpatrick
                      Hi, I was just wondering who the author of Path of Fury is so that I can read his/her books. Thanks ________________________________ From: Sharon
                      Message 10 of 18 , Dec 11, 2008
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                        Hi, I was just wondering who the author of "Path of Fury" is so that I can read his/her books. Thanks




                        ________________________________
                        From: Sharon <sportpony@...>
                        To: Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, October 27, 2008 3:57:25 AM
                        Subject: Re: [Fantasy_Books] This month I have been mostly readin'...


                        <<> am going to try and track down a copy of "Path of the Fury" just to see what had been changed or added to. Dale >>>

                        I haven't read the "expanded" version so not sure where that started or if there was more detail in later sections but "Path" starts with the raid on the family homestead which killed all of her family and "introduced" her to the Fury.

                        Sharon in KY

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                        __________________________________________________________________
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                      • Sharon
                        The author of Path of the Fury is David Weber. He s a very prolific author and I ve liked a lot of his books ... have a lot of them on my personal
                        Message 11 of 18 , Dec 11, 2008
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                          The author of "Path of the Fury" is David Weber. He's a very prolific author and I've liked a lot of his books ... have a lot of them on my personal bookshelves that I enjoy re-reading.

                          His "Honor Harrington" series is probably his best known series. I have all of the early Harrington books ... they are great and read something like "Path". I also particularly liked "The Apocolypse Troll", a stand alone and the "Mutineer's Moon" trilogy.

                          He does have a strong tendency to get carried away with political involvement, especially noticeable in the last few years and while I did read the last two of the Harrington books, just to more or less finish out the "story" ... I don't own them.

                          Sharon in KY

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • William C. Garthright
                          ... I agree, Sharon. I enjoyed David Weber s first two Honor Harrington books, though they followed the now-standard pattern of C. S. Forester s Horatio
                          Message 12 of 18 , Dec 11, 2008
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                            > His "Honor Harrington" series is probably his best known series. I have all of the early Harrington books ...
                            >
                            > He does have a strong tendency to get carried away with political involvement, especially noticeable in the last few years


                            I agree, Sharon. I enjoyed David Weber's first two Honor Harrington
                            books, though they followed the now-standard pattern of C. S. Forester's
                            Horatio Hornblower (except for being set in space), always ending with
                            the usual climactic battle against overwhelming odds. But they were
                            enjoyable, if you didn't take them too seriously.

                            As the series went on, though, they got increasingly talky, and
                            heavy-handed into politics, though I kept reading for awhile. Later, he
                            started writing similar books, set in the same universe, but with
                            different characters. "The Shadow of Saganimi" was pretty good, I
                            thought, though it followed the standard space navy formula exactly. But
                            I couldn't believe how bad "Crown of Slaves" was (though it was
                            co-authored by Eric Flint, who's one of my favorite authors). Too much
                            talk, and ridiculous characters!

                            I've enjoyed other David Weber books, including his collaborations with
                            Steve White ("Insurrection," "Crusade," etc.), which are more space navy
                            warfare books (again, they're all alike, but they're exciting enough)
                            and others with Eric Flint in Flint's "1632" series. I've also got his
                            1995 fantasy, "Oath of Swords," but I must admit that I don't really
                            remember it.

                            Bill

                            --
                            There is no society in human history that ever suffered because its
                            people became too reasonable. - Sam Harris
                          • Sharon
                            Message 13 of 18 , Dec 12, 2008
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                              <<<But I couldn't believe how bad "Crown of Slaves" was (though it was
                              co-authored by Eric Flint, who's one of my favorite authors). Too much
                              talk, and ridiculous characters! Bill >>>>

                              Eric Flint is one of my favorite authors too ... I have re-read "Mother of Demons" I don't know how many times and same for the first two books in the 1832 series. The first book ... by Eric Flint only, is just a great fun read. The second, co-authored with David Weber, gets a lot more involved with history and politics ... you can sure see the Weber influence. After that, for me, unfortunately, it was all downhill. The last two I picked up at the library in the hopes that it might improve again I don't think I even finished. Too many people, too much history, too much politics ... and while I can handle some of that if the characters are really great, since I insist on character-driven books for the most part ... a couple of the co-authors he's using with this series don't seem to be able to do characters well.

                              Oh, well ...

                              Sharon



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • William C. Garthright
                              ... Yes, Sharon, same here. I ve re-read Mother of Demons many times. And the 1632 series as well. At his best, Eric Flint writes entertaining stories with
                              Message 14 of 18 , Dec 13, 2008
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                                > Eric Flint is one of my favorite authors too ... I have re-read "Mother of Demons" I don't know how many times and same for the first two books in the 1632 series.


                                Yes, Sharon, same here. I've re-read "Mother of Demons" many times. And
                                the "1632" series as well. At his best, Eric Flint writes entertaining
                                stories with wonderful characters. His fiction is always optimistic, and
                                his characters aren't supermen, but they're very capable and
                                unrealistically decent. That doesn't bother me, though. I guess I'm just
                                a sucker for that kind of thing.

                                However, Flint has become VERY prolific. He seems to have any number of
                                books he's writing at the same time, often with various co-authors. And
                                unfortunately, the quality is getting pretty uneven. I think he needs to
                                slow down.

                                If you haven't read them, you might want to try his Rivers of War
                                series: "1812: The Rivers of War" and "1824: The Arkansas War." They are
                                alternate history which start from a single small event. In this
                                history, unlike our own, the young Sam Houston escapes serious injury in
                                the War of 1812, and that leads to many eventual consequences, such as
                                the Trail of Tears migration of the Cherokee being taken voluntarily,
                                along with free blacks, to form their own homeland in Arkansas and
                                Oklahoma. I think it's fascinating.

                                I also like "Rats, Bats, and Vats" (2000) and the sequel, "The Rats, the
                                Bats, and the Ugly" (2004), both with Dave Freer. I actually like the
                                sequel the best, but they're both hilarious and exciting. (The romance
                                between the man, Fitzhugh, and his chocolate-craving rat, Ariel, is
                                great!) And I enjoyed "The Shadow of the Lion" (2002) and its sequels,
                                written with Mercedes Lackey and Dave Freer. Those are historical
                                fantasies, set in a 16th Century Venice with magic and gods.

                                I like Flint enough that I've been buying every book he writes, but I've
                                been disappointed often enough, too (especially lately). I just think
                                he's got too much on his plate these days.

                                Bill

                                PS. Another thing I like about Eric Flint is his work with the Baen Free
                                Library (http://www.baen.com/library/defaultTitles.htm). He's got a
                                large number of his own books there, free to download, including most of
                                those mentioned above. I want to own the books I like, but it's sure
                                nice to be able to try them first!

                                --
                                A common mistake people make when trying to design something completely
                                foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools. - Douglas
                                Adams
                              • Sharon
                                Message 15 of 18 , Dec 14, 2008
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                                  <<<At his best, Eric Flint writes entertaining stories with wonderful characters. His fiction is always optimistic, and
                                  his characters aren't supermen, but they're very capable and unrealistically decent. That doesn't bother me, though. I guess I'm just a sucker for that kind of thing.>>>

                                  I read for entertainment and that is what I enjoy reading ... good story with great characters and DECENT characters. My other 'favorite' genre is mystery and I've really gotten disgusted with all of the "dysfunctional" characters there ... I mean, a serial killer cop as a HERO? Sorry ... doesn't work for me.


                                  <<<However, Flint has become VERY prolific. He seems to have any number of books he's writing at the same time, often with various co-authors. And unfortunately, the quality is getting pretty uneven. I think he needs to slow down. >>>

                                  That seems to have happened with several of the very popular authors ... other than Flint, David Weber and Anne McCaffrey come to mind. And it is often these co-authored books that end up losing me as a "buy it as soon as it comes out whether I've read it or not" customer.

                                  I'm not sure just why it happens (money maybe?) but other authors, that I like just as well, seem to have managed to avoid that. I sometimes wish they would write faster, but seems like for most people one, possibly two, books per year seems to be the practical limit.

                                  I'll see what else the library may have by Flint and try a couple of the other series if they have them.

                                  Sharon


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • William C. Garthright
                                  ... Me, neither. I like mysteries, but I HAVE to like the characters - I mean, really like them. Most mysteries don t do much for me. I prefer the
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Dec 14, 2008
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                                    > My other 'favorite' genre is mystery and I've really gotten disgusted with all of the "dysfunctional" characters there ... I mean, a serial killer cop as a HERO? Sorry ... doesn't work for me.
                                    >


                                    Me, neither. I like mysteries, but I HAVE to like the characters - I
                                    mean, really like them. Most mysteries don't do much for me. I prefer
                                    the old-fashioned kind of British mysteries like Agatha Christie and
                                    Dorothy Sayers. Right now, my favorite author is Reginald Hill. I've
                                    gotten hooked on his Dalziel and Pascoe series.

                                    Oddly enough, though, I don't think I would have liked them much if I
                                    hadn't seen the first one, "A Clubbable Woman," on TV. That gave me a
                                    clear idea of the characters, which I don't think the book alone would
                                    have done. As I continued to read the series, though, I got to know the
                                    characters better and better (and he kept adding characters here and
                                    there, as the series continued).

                                    I like Sharyn McCrumb's Appalachian mysteries, too, though I don't
                                    usually like fantasy elements (ghosts, etc.) in mysteries. I haven't
                                    read her most recent books, though.

                                    So, Sharon, what mystery authors do you like? Our tastes seem to be
                                    similar, and I don't read enough mysteries to be very familiar with them.


                                    > I sometimes wish they would write faster, but seems like for most people one, possibly two, books per year seems to be the practical limit.
                                    >


                                    And then, some authors don't write nearly fast enough. Connie Willis,
                                    for example, is one of my very favorite authors, but I sure wish she'd
                                    write more!

                                    Heh! I guess I'm never satisfied, huh?

                                    Bill

                                    --
                                    Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to
                                    continue that counts. - Winston Churchill
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