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Is the shadow receeding?

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  • Michael
    Yep, I m just making conversation. Ignore me if I bore you, yell at me if I m wrong, toast me if I m right... So here is my thinking. Tolkien s shadow still
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 17 9:45 AM
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      Yep, I'm just making conversation. Ignore me if I bore you, yell at
      me if I'm wrong, toast me if I'm right...

      So here is my thinking. Tolkien's shadow still dominates fantasy
      writing, but there seem to be some new directions. A few examples:

      His Majesty's Dragon by Naomi Novik
      Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clark
      American Gods by Neil Gaiman

      These seem pretty original and less an imitation of Tolkien. Is
      Tolkien's shadow receeding or has there always been a strong sideshow
      of unique fantasy? Is there a risk that the recent Lord of the Rings
      movies will jerk us back toward Tolkien? Don't get me wrong, I loved
      the movies and I hope dwarves, elves orcs and dragons will always be
      a part of my life.

      Would Tolkien's reach be so long if it weren't for Dungeons and
      Dragons? The game completely absorbed a generation of geeks (that
      would be me). Much of the evolution around the dwarves, elves, orcs,
      dragons concept seems to have been associated with the game.

      Please comment on anything that sparks your interest.

      Thanks for reading,
      Shep
    • Richard Claypool
      American Gods is not original. There was a book written way before his that delbt with the same theme. I really tried to like that book, but honestly could
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 17 9:58 AM
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        American Gods is not original. There was a book written way before his that
        delbt with the same theme. I really tried to like that book, but honestly
        could not.

        Rick

        aim
        rclaypo
        skype
        lord_of_beer
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Michael" <mashepardson@...>
        To: <Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 12:45 PM
        Subject: [Fantasy_Books] Is the shadow receeding?


        Yep, I'm just making conversation. Ignore me if I bore you, yell at
        me if I'm wrong, toast me if I'm right...

        So here is my thinking. Tolkien's shadow still dominates fantasy
        writing, but there seem to be some new directions. A few examples:

        His Majesty's Dragon by Naomi Novik
        Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clark
        American Gods by Neil Gaiman

        These seem pretty original and less an imitation of Tolkien. Is
        Tolkien's shadow receeding or has there always been a strong sideshow
        of unique fantasy? Is there a risk that the recent Lord of the Rings
        movies will jerk us back toward Tolkien? Don't get me wrong, I loved
        the movies and I hope dwarves, elves orcs and dragons will always be
        a part of my life.

        Would Tolkien's reach be so long if it weren't for Dungeons and
        Dragons? The game completely absorbed a generation of geeks (that
        would be me). Much of the evolution around the dwarves, elves, orcs,
        dragons concept seems to have been associated with the game.

        Please comment on anything that sparks your interest.

        Thanks for reading,
        Shep
      • Michael
        Do you know the name and/or author of the other book? Thanks, Shep
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 17 10:06 AM
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          Do you know the name and/or author of the other book?

          Thanks,
          Shep
        • Deni James
          well i haven t oficially introduced myself on this group my name is Denishe James and I am from Egypt. I read all day because I m a literary agent. People are
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 17 1:12 PM
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            well i haven't oficially introduced myself on this group my name is Denishe' James and I am from Egypt. I read all day because I'm a literary agent. People are always sending me scripts asking me this and that. mOstly though I usually work with schoolbooks and editing.
            Anyway to comment I think that personally since i don't consider myself a geek or nerd that this question has some merit but not completely. I think that Tolkien had so much influence because he had written something so vastly beyond the norm that it ground itself into peoples imagination and took root like Star Wars and George Lucas. I personally did not become a fan of Tolkien until I was fifteen. I had always liked sports especially gymnastics but when I broke my ankle they gave me tons of books to read. Lord of the Rings just fascinated me but there were other fantasy novels that struck me just as hard but were on a different thread. I think it is truly up to the reader and what they want to see in a novel. For me when I read just for pleasure it may be something as mundane and regular a romance novel just to kick back or it might be about dragons that can talk on a psychic thread and bond with humans or i might want to encompass all fantasy and go to another world
            and thats when I need Tolkien. Its your mood and what you look for. Why was he such a big hit and others weren't? Just buzz and anticipation.

            Michael <mashepardson@...> wrote:
            Yep, I'm just making conversation. Ignore me if I bore you, yell at
            me if I'm wrong, toast me if I'm right...

            So here is my thinking. Tolkien's shadow still dominates fantasy
            writing, but there seem to be some new directions. A few examples:

            His Majesty's Dragon by Naomi Novik
            Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clark
            American Gods by Neil Gaiman

            These seem pretty original and less an imitation of Tolkien. Is
            Tolkien's shadow receeding or has there always been a strong sideshow
            of unique fantasy? Is there a risk that the recent Lord of the Rings
            movies will jerk us back toward Tolkien? Don't get me wrong, I loved
            the movies and I hope dwarves, elves orcs and dragons will always be
            a part of my life.

            Would Tolkien's reach be so long if it weren't for Dungeons and
            Dragons? The game completely absorbed a generation of geeks (that
            would be me). Much of the evolution around the dwarves, elves, orcs,
            dragons concept seems to have been associated with the game.

            Please comment on anything that sparks your interest.

            Thanks for reading,
            Shep






            ---------------------------------
            Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows.
            Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • ethiercn@aol.com
            I guess it depends on how you define his shadow (does it cover anything that has elves?). I think that at least today, Tolkien s shadow is primarily in the
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 17 2:24 PM
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              I guess it depends on how you define his shadow (does it cover anything that
              has elves?). I think that at least today, Tolkien's shadow is primarily in
              the minds of those who do not read that much fantasy. Look at any interview
              with an author of fantasy or any review of fantasy book that is done by a
              non-regular reading fantasy, and it will include some version of "fantasy use to
              be morris men, dasmels and elves until -------- [whomever] came along". The
              most recent version of this was in an interview with J. K. Rowling.
              (Strangely, the only fantasy novels that I have ever seen morris men in are the
              Discworld books).

              In terms of his shadow over actual writers, well I'm not sure if its
              entirely his shadow. Perhaps it is his sources shadow. Is all epic fantasy a
              version of Tolkien? I don't think so. I know that there was more Tolkien shadow
              writing in the 1970s. Marion Zimmer Bradley actually stated she refused to
              look at any story with elves because of the Tolkien shadows (she was referring
              to her magazine and Sword and Sorceress books). The first fantasy book I
              ever read on my own was The Hobbit and closely followed by LOTR (I was 7)..
              AFter that I read mostly Black STallion books and myth and legends,and it
              wasn't until I was in middle school or high school that I really started to read
              fantasy (as in going to the section in the bookstore). And that was because
              I was like "wow this is just like that myth I read".

              Yes, I think D&D had a big role to play. And a good and bad one. I think
              it contributes to the sterotype (I use to play to).

              Chris
              In a message dated 7/17/2007 12:48:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
              mashepardson@... writes:

              Yep, I'm just making conversation. Ignore me if I bore you, yell at
              me if I'm wrong, toast me if I'm right...

              So here is my thinking. Tolkien's shadow still dominates fantasy
              writing, but there seem to be some new directions. A few examples:

              His Majesty's Dragon by Naomi Novik
              Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clark
              American Gods by Neil Gaiman

              These seem pretty original and less an imitation of Tolkien. Is
              Tolkien's shadow receeding or has there always been a strong sideshow
              of unique fantasy? Is there a risk that the recent Lord of the Rings
              movies will jerk us back toward Tolkien? Don't get me wrong, I loved
              the movies and I hope dwarves, elves orcs and dragons will always be
              a part of my life.

              Would Tolkien's reach be so long if it weren't for Dungeons and
              Dragons? The game completely absorbed a generation of geeks (that
              would be me). Much of the evolution around the dwarves, elves, orcs,
              dragons concept seems to have been associated with the game.

              Please comment on anything that sparks your interest.

              Thanks for reading,







              ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
              http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Gloria
              There s been unique strong fantasy going new places and whatnot for sometime. Of course can I site any? Uhm.... Tanya Huff, Martha Wells, Rachel Caine, Tad
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 17 6:03 PM
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                There's been unique strong fantasy going new places and whatnot for
                sometime. Of course can I site any? Uhm.... Tanya Huff, Martha Wells,
                Rachel Caine, Tad Williams, I am sure there have been more. Tolkien was
                after Burroughs right? (no brain no brain)


                Gloria Oliver
                www.gloriaoliver.com
                Unveiling the Fantastic

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of Michael
                Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 11:46 AM
                To: Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [Fantasy_Books] Is the shadow receeding?


                Yep, I'm just making conversation. Ignore me if I bore you, yell at
                me if I'm wrong, toast me if I'm right...

                So here is my thinking. Tolkien's shadow still dominates fantasy
                writing, but there seem to be some new directions. A few examples:

                His Majesty's Dragon by Naomi Novik
                Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clark
                American Gods by Neil Gaiman

                These seem pretty original and less an imitation of Tolkien. Is
                Tolkien's shadow receeding or has there always been a strong sideshow
                of unique fantasy? Is there a risk that the recent Lord of the Rings
                movies will jerk us back toward Tolkien? Don't get me wrong, I loved
                the movies and I hope dwarves, elves orcs and dragons will always be
                a part of my life.

                Would Tolkien's reach be so long if it weren't for Dungeons and
                Dragons? The game completely absorbed a generation of geeks (that
                would be me). Much of the evolution around the dwarves, elves, orcs,
                dragons concept seems to have been associated with the game.

                Please comment on anything that sparks your interest.

                Thanks for reading,
                Shep






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • darkomik772000
                ... Wells, ... was ... Yes, Tolkien was after ERBurroughs. J.K. Rowling was influenced by P.L. Travers of the Mary Poppins series, and E. Nesbit. J.M. Barrie
                Message 7 of 28 , Jul 17 7:05 PM
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                  --- In Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com, "Gloria" <gioliver@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > There's been unique strong fantasy going new places and whatnot for
                  > sometime. Of course can I site any? Uhm.... Tanya Huff, Martha
                  Wells,
                  > Rachel Caine, Tad Williams, I am sure there have been more. Tolkien
                  was
                  > after Burroughs right? (no brain no brain)
                  >

                  Yes, Tolkien was after ERBurroughs. J.K. Rowling was influenced by
                  P.L. Travers of the Mary Poppins series, and E. Nesbit. J.M. Barrie
                  could very well be influential. But then again I could be wrong.
                • Peta Smith
                  I m with you Richard. I also tried and tried again with American Gods but it left me cold. I absolutely LOVE all the Sandman comics tho and Neverwhere I
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jul 18 1:40 AM
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                    I'm with you Richard. I also tried and tried again with American Gods but it
                    left me cold. I absolutely LOVE all the Sandman comics tho and Neverwhere I
                    thought was quite fun too.

                    Peta
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Richard Claypool" <bellevue.bat@...>
                    To: <Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 2:58 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Fantasy_Books] Is the shadow receeding?


                    > American Gods is not original. There was a book written way before his
                    > that
                    > delbt with the same theme. I really tried to like that book, but honestly
                    > could not.
                    >
                    > Rick
                    >
                    > aim
                    > rclaypo
                    > skype
                    > lord_of_beer
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Michael" <mashepardson@...>
                    > To: <Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Tuesday, July 17, 2007 12:45 PM
                    > Subject: [Fantasy_Books] Is the shadow receeding?
                    >
                    >
                    > Yep, I'm just making conversation. Ignore me if I bore you, yell at
                    > me if I'm wrong, toast me if I'm right...
                    >
                    > So here is my thinking. Tolkien's shadow still dominates fantasy
                    > writing, but there seem to be some new directions. A few examples:
                    >
                    > His Majesty's Dragon by Naomi Novik
                    > Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clark
                    > American Gods by Neil Gaiman
                    >
                    > These seem pretty original and less an imitation of Tolkien. Is
                    > Tolkien's shadow receeding or has there always been a strong sideshow
                    > of unique fantasy? Is there a risk that the recent Lord of the Rings
                    > movies will jerk us back toward Tolkien? Don't get me wrong, I loved
                    > the movies and I hope dwarves, elves orcs and dragons will always be
                    > a part of my life.
                    >
                    > Would Tolkien's reach be so long if it weren't for Dungeons and
                    > Dragons? The game completely absorbed a generation of geeks (that
                    > would be me). Much of the evolution around the dwarves, elves, orcs,
                    > dragons concept seems to have been associated with the game.
                    >
                    > Please comment on anything that sparks your interest.
                    >
                    > Thanks for reading,
                    > Shep
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --
                    > No virus found in this incoming message.
                    > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                    > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.8/906 - Release Date: 17/07/2007
                    > 6:30 PM
                    >
                    >
                  • Peta Smith
                    I think Tolkien standardised a lot of things that many other authors have and continue to run with. Elves as being tall, beautiful beings that inhabit
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jul 18 1:52 AM
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                      I think Tolkien "standardised" a lot of things that many other authors have
                      and continue to run with. Elves as being tall, beautiful beings that inhabit
                      forests and shoot bows, Dwarves as being short and stocky, uncouth, fighting
                      with axes, not getting on with elves. Orks as being ugly and the enemy.
                      Wizards. An unassuming character who has to do great things, An assorted
                      band of travellers, A quest to go , the evil dark etc. Thus you have
                      Brooks-Shannara, Feist (gamer) - Midkemia, Tad Williams - Memory, Sorrow and
                      Thorn, Eddings - belgariad et al and more recently Paolini - Eragon.
                      Methinks Tolkien's Shadow is still looming large!
                      Cheers, Peta
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: <ethiercn@...>
                      To: <Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2007 7:24 AM
                      Subject: Re: [Fantasy_Books] Is the shadow receeding?


                      >
                      > I guess it depends on how you define his shadow (does it cover anything
                      > that
                      > has elves?). I think that at least today, Tolkien's shadow is primarily
                      > in
                      > the minds of those who do not read that much fantasy. Look at any
                      > interview
                      > with an author of fantasy or any review of fantasy book that is done by a
                      > non-regular reading fantasy, and it will include some version of "fantasy
                      > use to
                      > be morris men, dasmels and elves until -------- [whomever] came along".
                      > The
                      > most recent version of this was in an interview with J. K. Rowling.
                      > (Strangely, the only fantasy novels that I have ever seen morris men in
                      > are the
                      > Discworld books).
                      >
                      > In terms of his shadow over actual writers, well I'm not sure if its
                      > entirely his shadow. Perhaps it is his sources shadow. Is all epic
                      > fantasy a
                      > version of Tolkien? I don't think so. I know that there was more
                      > Tolkien shadow
                      > writing in the 1970s. Marion Zimmer Bradley actually stated she refused
                      > to
                      > look at any story with elves because of the Tolkien shadows (she was
                      > referring
                      > to her magazine and Sword and Sorceress books). The first fantasy book I
                      > ever read on my own was The Hobbit and closely followed by LOTR (I was
                      > 7)..
                      > AFter that I read mostly Black STallion books and myth and legends,and
                      > it
                      > wasn't until I was in middle school or high school that I really started
                      > to read
                      > fantasy (as in going to the section in the bookstore). And that was
                      > because
                      > I was like "wow this is just like that myth I read".
                      >
                      > Yes, I think D&D had a big role to play. And a good and bad one. I
                      > think
                      > it contributes to the sterotype (I use to play to).
                      >
                      > Chris
                      > In a message dated 7/17/2007 12:48:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time,
                      > mashepardson@... writes:
                      >
                      > Yep, I'm just making conversation. Ignore me if I bore you, yell at
                      > me if I'm wrong, toast me if I'm right...
                      >
                      > So here is my thinking. Tolkien's shadow still dominates fantasy
                      > writing, but there seem to be some new directions. A few examples:
                      >
                      > His Majesty's Dragon by Naomi Novik
                      > Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clark
                      > American Gods by Neil Gaiman
                      >
                      > These seem pretty original and less an imitation of Tolkien. Is
                      > Tolkien's shadow receeding or has there always been a strong sideshow
                      > of unique fantasy? Is there a risk that the recent Lord of the Rings
                      > movies will jerk us back toward Tolkien? Don't get me wrong, I loved
                      > the movies and I hope dwarves, elves orcs and dragons will always be
                      > a part of my life.
                      >
                      > Would Tolkien's reach be so long if it weren't for Dungeons and
                      > Dragons? The game completely absorbed a generation of geeks (that
                      > would be me). Much of the evolution around the dwarves, elves, orcs,
                      > dragons concept seems to have been associated with the game.
                      >
                      > Please comment on anything that sparks your interest.
                      >
                      > Thanks for reading,
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL
                      > at
                      > http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --
                      > No virus found in this incoming message.
                      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                      > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.8/906 - Release Date: 17/07/2007
                      > 6:30 PM
                      >
                      >
                    • robina_williams
                      ... but it ... Neverwhere I ... Well, I really liked American Gods, Peta. And I thought Neverwhere was a great book, with a terrific ending -- quite
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jul 18 3:21 AM
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                        --- In Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com, "Peta Smith" <petas@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I'm with you Richard. I also tried and tried again with American Gods
                        but it
                        > left me cold. I absolutely LOVE all the Sandman comics tho and
                        Neverwhere I
                        > thought was quite fun too.
                        >
                        > Peta

                        Well, I really liked American Gods, Peta. And I thought Neverwhere was
                        a great book, with a terrific ending -- quite sensational.

                        Robina ~ www.robinawilliams.com
                        robina@...
                        The quantum cat is back!
                        Angelos out on Amazon.com
                      • Michael
                        Yes, this is sort of what I was thinking. We, the reading public, have certain expectations based on Tolkien s writing. There are so many elements of his
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jul 18 6:58 AM
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                          Yes, this is sort of what I was thinking. We, the reading public, have
                          certain expectations based on Tolkien's writing. There are so many
                          elements of his writing that seem prevelant now. For example, whether
                          elves are called elves, or children of the forest, or whatever, there
                          seems to be a ton of forest dwelling peoples with ancient knowledge.

                          I think Dungeons and Dragons went further to set peoples' expectations,
                          giving us actual numeric values for the different races, gods, magic,
                          etc. So that nowadays, when someone says "Fireball", we all think of
                          huge, exploding globes of fire...rather than say, a small ball of fire
                          that rolls around on the table when you flick it with your index finger
                          or a little ball of light that you stick on your helmet before
                          descending into the mines.

                          Anyway, thanks for capturing my thoughts so concisely. I should learn
                          the same skill :-0

                          Shep
                        • darkomik772000
                          ... have ... whether ... expectations, ... Well, unfortunately for me, I m not all that familiar with Dungeons & Dragons RPGs. I tried reading the directions
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jul 18 5:55 PM
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                            --- In Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mashepardson@...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Yes, this is sort of what I was thinking. We, the reading public,
                            have
                            > certain expectations based on Tolkien's writing. There are so many
                            > elements of his writing that seem prevelant now. For example,
                            whether
                            > elves are called elves, or children of the forest, or whatever, there
                            > seems to be a ton of forest dwelling peoples with ancient knowledge.
                            >
                            > I think Dungeons and Dragons went further to set peoples'
                            expectations,
                            > giving us actual numeric values for the different races, gods, magic,
                            > etc.

                            Well, unfortunately for me, I'm not all that familiar with Dungeons &
                            Dragons RPGs. I tried reading the directions on how to play the game
                            but never could figure how to do that. The ground rules of the game
                            were rather vague at best. As much as I'd like to play the game or any
                            others similar to this, the language was opaque to me. Like I'm
                            reading Greek instead of English.
                          • Mervi
                            ... I think that Novik s books are still quite close to epic. They just have a more modern setting. Otherwise, they are war-stories just like most epic
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jul 19 1:47 AM
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                              --- In Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mashepardson@...> wrote:
                              >

                              > So here is my thinking. Tolkien's shadow still dominates fantasy
                              > writing, but there seem to be some new directions. A few examples:
                              >
                              > His Majesty's Dragon by Naomi Novik
                              > Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clark
                              > American Gods by Neil Gaiman

                              I think that Novik's books are still quite close to epic. They just
                              have a more modern setting. Otherwise, they are war-stories just like
                              most epic fantasy.

                              > has there always been a strong sideshow of unique fantasy?

                              Yes.

                              This, of course, depends on how you define fantasy. If you think that
                              only epic fantasy is "real" fantasy then it's a different story. But
                              if you can accept that subgenres such as urban fantasy, comic fantasy,
                              and magic realism are part of the fantasy genre, then there are a wide
                              variety of books.

                              Sword and sorcery subgenre is probably the closest one to epic even
                              that has been around longer than Tolkien. People like Edgar Rice
                              Burroughs, Robert E. Howard, Fritz Leiber, and Michael Moorcock are
                              even today relatively well known.

                              Arthurian tales predate Tolkien by centuries, of course.

                              Here's a list of fantasy subgenres and some writers in each:
                              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy_subgenres

                              Even that list omits urban fantasy and magic realism.

                              Mervi
                            • Michael
                              You ve stoked my curiosity. I m familiar with urban fantasy, what is magic realism? Can you give a few books or authors as examples? Thanks. Shep
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jul 19 5:57 AM
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                                You've stoked my curiosity. I'm familiar with urban fantasy, what is
                                magic realism? Can you give a few books or authors as examples?
                                Thanks.

                                Shep
                              • ethiercn@aol.com
                                Magic realism authors include Angela Carter and S. Rushdie. The shortest defination is that it is magical elements include in an otherwise normal setting.
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jul 19 4:58 PM
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                                  Magic realism authors include Angela Carter and S. Rushdie.

                                  The shortest defination is that it is magical elements include in an
                                  otherwise normal setting. Angela Carter's Nights at the Circus is about a woman who
                                  really does have wings and her history. Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norell
                                  would be another example.

                                  You could also it is a somewhat artsy, literary term so that authors who
                                  write fantasy but don't want to admit can have a secret code word in place of
                                  simply fantasy.


                                  Chris


                                  In a message dated 7/19/2007 9:01:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
                                  mashepardson@... writes:


                                  You've stoked my curiosity. I'm familiar with urban fantasy, what is
                                  magic realism? Can you give a few books or authors as examples?
                                  Thanks.

                                  Shep









                                  ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at
                                  http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour


                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • darkomik772000
                                  ... an ... about a woman who ... Norell ... authors who ... in place of ... Don t forget other Latin American writers like Carlos Fuentes and Gabriel
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jul 19 7:01 PM
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                                    --- In Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com, ethiercn@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Magic realism authors include Angela Carter and S. Rushdie.
                                    >
                                    > The shortest defination is that it is magical elements include in
                                    an
                                    > otherwise normal setting. Angela Carter's Nights at the Circus is
                                    about a woman who
                                    > really does have wings and her history. Jonathan Strange and Mr.
                                    Norell
                                    > would be another example.
                                    >
                                    > You could also it is a somewhat artsy, literary term so that
                                    authors who
                                    > write fantasy but don't want to admit can have a secret code word
                                    in place of
                                    > simply fantasy.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Chris
                                    >


                                    Don't forget other Latin American writers like Carlos Fuentes and
                                    Gabriel Marquez. Even John Nichols is no exception with his Nirvana
                                    trilogy.
                                  • Paula
                                    I don t know if there are others like me but I grew up in the eighties consuming fantasy like it was kindling. I couldn t get enough. I read the obvious
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jul 22 4:32 AM
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I don't know if there are others like me but I grew up in the
                                      eighties consuming fantasy like it was kindling. I couldn't get
                                      enough. I read the obvious classics like Tolkien and Lewis and even
                                      Le Guin but I also read every single hack author that was published
                                      in the eighties because I could not get enough of the fantasy genre
                                      and I was growing up in a hick country town in rural Australia so
                                      there weren't too many of like minded people. An unfortunate side
                                      effect of the voracious reading habits meant that in the nineties I
                                      could not read anything that had an elf or a dwarf or anything like
                                      that in it. TSR and Forgotten Realms have ruined the whole genre of
                                      quest fantasy for me.

                                      Fortunately there are several authors that are actually original and
                                      a pleasure to read. I particularly like authors like Naomi Novik and
                                      Lois McMaster Bujold who rely more upon the characterisations than
                                      the fantasy worlds. Of course I will always have time for anything
                                      that has dragons in it as they are my particular obsession. Anyway,
                                      I think that although Tolkien still has an influence anything
                                      influenced by him nowadays feels old and tired and that there should
                                      be new fantasy that doesn't rely on the cliched images of the
                                      beautiful elves and the gruff dwarfs. Fortunately there is a
                                      plethora of talent out there that does not rely on the Tolkien crowd
                                      to buy their books.

                                      Hooray for Urban fantasy and authors who can get their story told in
                                      three books or less!!!!!

                                      Paula

                                      --- In Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mashepardson@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Yep, I'm just making conversation. Ignore me if I bore you, yell
                                      at
                                      > me if I'm wrong, toast me if I'm right...
                                      >
                                      > So here is my thinking. Tolkien's shadow still dominates fantasy
                                      > writing, but there seem to be some new directions. A few examples:
                                      >
                                      > His Majesty's Dragon by Naomi Novik
                                      > Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clark
                                      > American Gods by Neil Gaiman
                                      >
                                      > These seem pretty original and less an imitation of Tolkien. Is
                                      > Tolkien's shadow receeding or has there always been a strong
                                      sideshow
                                      > of unique fantasy? Is there a risk that the recent Lord of the
                                      Rings
                                      > movies will jerk us back toward Tolkien? Don't get me wrong, I
                                      loved
                                      > the movies and I hope dwarves, elves orcs and dragons will always
                                      be
                                      > a part of my life.
                                      >
                                      > Would Tolkien's reach be so long if it weren't for Dungeons and
                                      > Dragons? The game completely absorbed a generation of geeks (that
                                      > would be me). Much of the evolution around the dwarves, elves,
                                      orcs,
                                      > dragons concept seems to have been associated with the game.
                                      >
                                      > Please comment on anything that sparks your interest.
                                      >
                                      > Thanks for reading,
                                      > Shep
                                      >
                                    • The Bohemian Piano
                                      Hmm, I don t think that Tolkien s shadow is receding, it s still there and is very strong, as can be seen that he is always stocked, while many of his copycats
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jul 22 7:14 AM
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hmm, I don't think that Tolkien's shadow is receding, it's still there and
                                        is very strong, as can be seen that he is always stocked, while many of his
                                        copycats are not. I grew up with lots of different fantasy, and most of
                                        them were not Tolkien copies, while others simply stole his idea's. I also
                                        grew up in a hick town in Australia, with no one else at all, my age anyway,
                                        reading fantasy. The librarian's were my best friends, pointing out all new
                                        fantasy books they'd got in. The problem lay in that beng a big fan of
                                        quest fantasy, they usually only managed to get one or two books in. I
                                        remember one series, I think it had 5 books in total, my library could only
                                        get books, 2, 4, and 5. I'm a little anal about reading books in order, and
                                        will not read any books in a series, until I have read the one previous.

                                        My habits though had the opposite affect than you Paula. I loved Elves, and
                                        Dwarves, and still do. Ah well.

                                        Also, I'm interested to know whereabouts in Australia you grew up.

                                        ---
                                        The Bohemian Piano
                                        ICQ 38606282
                                        MSN bohemian_piano@...
                                        YIM bohemian_piano

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com]
                                        On Behalf Of Paula
                                        Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 9:33 PM
                                        To: Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: [Fantasy_Books] Re: Is the shadow receeding?

                                        I don't know if there are others like me but I grew up in the
                                        eighties consuming fantasy like it was kindling. I couldn't get
                                        enough. I read the obvious classics like Tolkien and Lewis and even
                                        Le Guin but I also read every single hack author that was published
                                        in the eighties because I could not get enough of the fantasy genre
                                        and I was growing up in a hick country town in rural Australia so
                                        there weren't too many of like minded people. An unfortunate side
                                        effect of the voracious reading habits meant that in the nineties I
                                        could not read anything that had an elf or a dwarf or anything like
                                        that in it. TSR and Forgotten Realms have ruined the whole genre of
                                        quest fantasy for me.

                                        Fortunately there are several authors that are actually original and
                                        a pleasure to read. I particularly like authors like Naomi Novik and
                                        Lois McMaster Bujold who rely more upon the characterisations than
                                        the fantasy worlds. Of course I will always have time for anything
                                        that has dragons in it as they are my particular obsession. Anyway,
                                        I think that although Tolkien still has an influence anything
                                        influenced by him nowadays feels old and tired and that there should
                                        be new fantasy that doesn't rely on the cliched images of the
                                        beautiful elves and the gruff dwarfs. Fortunately there is a
                                        plethora of talent out there that does not rely on the Tolkien crowd
                                        to buy their books.

                                        Hooray for Urban fantasy and authors who can get their story told in
                                        three books or less!!!!!

                                        Paula

                                        --- In Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com, "Michael" <mashepardson@...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Yep, I'm just making conversation. Ignore me if I bore you, yell
                                        at
                                        > me if I'm wrong, toast me if I'm right...
                                        >
                                        > So here is my thinking. Tolkien's shadow still dominates fantasy
                                        > writing, but there seem to be some new directions. A few examples:
                                        >
                                        > His Majesty's Dragon by Naomi Novik
                                        > Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clark
                                        > American Gods by Neil Gaiman
                                        >
                                        > These seem pretty original and less an imitation of Tolkien. Is
                                        > Tolkien's shadow receeding or has there always been a strong
                                        sideshow
                                        > of unique fantasy? Is there a risk that the recent Lord of the
                                        Rings
                                        > movies will jerk us back toward Tolkien? Don't get me wrong, I
                                        loved
                                        > the movies and I hope dwarves, elves orcs and dragons will always
                                        be
                                        > a part of my life.
                                        >
                                        > Would Tolkien's reach be so long if it weren't for Dungeons and
                                        > Dragons? The game completely absorbed a generation of geeks (that
                                        > would be me). Much of the evolution around the dwarves, elves,
                                        orcs,
                                        > dragons concept seems to have been associated with the game.
                                        >
                                        > Please comment on anything that sparks your interest.
                                        >
                                        > Thanks for reading,
                                        > Shep
                                        >





                                        Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      • William C. Garthright
                                        ... I ve become very tired of the standard elf/dwarf fantasies, too, but I can t blame TSR and Forgotten Realms for it. I know they ve published a ton of books
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jul 22 9:52 AM
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          > An unfortunate side effect of the voracious reading habits meant that in the nineties I could not read anything that had an elf or a dwarf or anything like that in it. TSR and Forgotten Realms have ruined the whole genre of quest fantasy for me.
                                          >


                                          I've become very tired of the standard elf/dwarf fantasies, too, but I
                                          can't blame TSR and Forgotten Realms for it. I know they've published a
                                          ton of books based on the role-playing game, but I always suspected
                                          they'd be pretty bad (the game, though, I think is great, though I've
                                          never actually played it in person). I finally read the *Dragonlance
                                          Chronicles* trilogy by Margaret Weiss and Tracy Hickman, because I read
                                          such glowing reviews of them, but I wasn't overly impressed (not
                                          terrible, but certainly not great). If that's the best, then I didn't
                                          miss much by not reading the others.

                                          Still, I've read plenty of poor fantasy that used the same basic Tolkien
                                          standards. And that definitely includes Terry Brooks' *The Sword of
                                          Shannara*, which seemed to be a near plagiarism of Tolkien's work. It
                                          would take a lot to make this genre fresh again.


                                          > Fortunately there are several authors that are actually original and a pleasure to read. I particularly like authors like Naomi Novik and Lois McMaster Bujold who rely more upon the characterisations than the fantasy worlds.


                                          I'm not familiar with Naomi Novik. I'll have to check her out. But
                                          Bujold's *The Curse of Chalion* (2001) was amazing. It was such a breath
                                          of fresh air, so unique and fascinating, and her characterization, as
                                          usual, was superb. I really can't praise it enough. I must admit that
                                          I've gotten tired of magic, too - at least, the same old magic that
                                          nearly all fantasy novels use. But this was all based on the nature of
                                          her world's gods - and a very unusual nature it was. The "magic" was
                                          simply a consequence of their effect on the world. Superb!

                                          The sequel, *Paladin of Souls* (2003), was just as good, I thought,
                                          because she had more to say about this unique world than was covered in
                                          the first book. *The Hallowed Hunt* (2005) - the third in the series,
                                          though with completely different characters and setting - was also very
                                          good, but it didn't have quite the impact of the first two. I think that
                                          was because there really wasn't anything new to say about the whole
                                          situation. Not much, anyway. The first two were REALLY refreshing, though.


                                          > Of course I will always have time for anything that has dragons in it as they are my particular obsession.


                                          Have you tried Patricia Brigg's *Dragon Bones* (2002), and the sequel,
                                          *Dragon Blood* (2003)? Very impressive, character-based fantasy. I must
                                          admit that I'm just as tired of dragons, in general, as elves and
                                          dwarves, but these are definitely an exception. She's an author to watch.


                                          > Anyway, I think that although Tolkien still has an influence anything influenced by him nowadays feels old and tired and that there should be new fantasy that doesn't rely on the cliched images of the beautiful elves and the gruff dwarfs.
                                          >


                                          I agree,... in general. I think that a good author could probably make
                                          even this cliché seem fresh and bright, although I suppose it's unlikely
                                          that I'd ever read it and find that out. But I prefer character-based
                                          fiction, and a book that focuses on characterization can, in theory, use
                                          any setting. But yes, I'd much prefer a fresh setting, if at all possible.


                                          > Hooray for Urban fantasy and authors who can get their story told in three books or less!!!!!
                                          >


                                          Oops! Well, here I must disagree with you, to some extent. The fact is,
                                          I'm already very, very tired of urban fantasy. I've enjoyed what I've
                                          read, but it's getting old fast, so very fast.

                                          And like you, I read a lot, but that's why I don't demand that a story
                                          be finished in three books or less. To my mind, it should simply take as
                                          long as it takes, and I actually prefer series, rather than stand-alone
                                          novels. I greatly enjoyed David Eddings' five-volume *Belgariad*, and
                                          even his five-volume sequel that told the exact same story all over
                                          again. And although they started out as children's books (it's hard to
                                          consider the last few as written for children, though juvenile might be
                                          a reasonable term), I can't complain about J. K. Rowling's seven-volume
                                          *Harry Potter* story.

                                          On the other hand, I stuck with Robert Jordan's *Wheel of Time* series
                                          for TEN volumes before finally giving up in disgust. That was
                                          considerably longer than I should have, because the last few volumes
                                          didn't go ANYWHERE. I don't know what he's up to now, and I guess I
                                          don't care. I'm really disgusted with him!

                                          But as long as the story doesn't lose what brought me to the series in
                                          the first place, I'm willing to go on as long as necessary. If it's all
                                          one story, that can often be quite a long time. Unfortunately, a series
                                          that is simply a line of sequels will often lose steam long before the
                                          author stops writing. I'm sure there are publishing reasons - economic
                                          reasons, I should say - for that. But a good author must - MUST - stop
                                          before he or she runs out of something new to say about a world. Much as
                                          I loved Anne McCaffrey's *Dragonflight* (1968), for example, she kept
                                          writing sequels for far too long.

                                          Bill

                                          --
                                          I will remind you all of the three comment rule: be patient, try to
                                          explain first, and only after they've said 3 stupid things, then can you
                                          whack them with a 2x4. - PZ Myers, Pharyngula blog
                                        • Richard Claypool
                                          the sword of shanara wasn t that good, but the series did get better. The 2nd series was my fav of the Shanara books. I really never read beyond the 2nd
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Jul 22 10:43 AM
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            the sword of shanara wasn't that good, but the series did get better. The
                                            2nd series was my fav of the Shanara books. I really never read beyond the
                                            2nd series.

                                            Rick

                                            aim
                                            rclaypo
                                            skype
                                            lord_of_beer
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            From: "William C. Garthright" <billg@...>
                                            To: <Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com>
                                            Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 12:52 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [Fantasy_Books] Is the shadow receding?


                                            >
                                            >> An unfortunate side effect of the voracious reading habits meant that in
                                            >> the nineties I could not read anything that had an elf or a dwarf or
                                            >> anything like that in it. TSR and Forgotten Realms have ruined the whole
                                            >> genre of quest fantasy for me.
                                            >>
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > I've become very tired of the standard elf/dwarf fantasies, too, but I
                                            > can't blame TSR and Forgotten Realms for it. I know they've published a
                                            > ton of books based on the role-playing game, but I always suspected
                                            > they'd be pretty bad (the game, though, I think is great, though I've
                                            > never actually played it in person). I finally read the *Dragonlance
                                            > Chronicles* trilogy by Margaret Weiss and Tracy Hickman, because I read
                                            > such glowing reviews of them, but I wasn't overly impressed (not
                                            > terrible, but certainly not great). If that's the best, then I didn't
                                            > miss much by not reading the others.
                                            >
                                            > Still, I've read plenty of poor fantasy that used the same basic Tolkien
                                            > standards. And that definitely includes Terry Brooks' *The Sword of
                                            > Shannara*, which seemed to be a near plagiarism of Tolkien's work. It
                                            > would take a lot to make this genre fresh again.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >> Fortunately there are several authors that are actually original and a
                                            >> pleasure to read. I particularly like authors like Naomi Novik and Lois
                                            >> McMaster Bujold who rely more upon the characterisations than the fantasy
                                            >> worlds.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > I'm not familiar with Naomi Novik. I'll have to check her out. But
                                            > Bujold's *The Curse of Chalion* (2001) was amazing. It was such a breath
                                            > of fresh air, so unique and fascinating, and her characterization, as
                                            > usual, was superb. I really can't praise it enough. I must admit that
                                            > I've gotten tired of magic, too - at least, the same old magic that
                                            > nearly all fantasy novels use. But this was all based on the nature of
                                            > her world's gods - and a very unusual nature it was. The "magic" was
                                            > simply a consequence of their effect on the world. Superb!
                                            >
                                            > The sequel, *Paladin of Souls* (2003), was just as good, I thought,
                                            > because she had more to say about this unique world than was covered in
                                            > the first book. *The Hallowed Hunt* (2005) - the third in the series,
                                            > though with completely different characters and setting - was also very
                                            > good, but it didn't have quite the impact of the first two. I think that
                                            > was because there really wasn't anything new to say about the whole
                                            > situation. Not much, anyway. The first two were REALLY refreshing, though.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >> Of course I will always have time for anything that has dragons in it
                                            >> as they are my particular obsession.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Have you tried Patricia Brigg's *Dragon Bones* (2002), and the sequel,
                                            > *Dragon Blood* (2003)? Very impressive, character-based fantasy. I must
                                            > admit that I'm just as tired of dragons, in general, as elves and
                                            > dwarves, but these are definitely an exception. She's an author to watch.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >> Anyway, I think that although Tolkien still has an influence anything
                                            >> influenced by him nowadays feels old and tired and that there should be
                                            >> new fantasy that doesn't rely on the cliched images of the beautiful
                                            >> elves and the gruff dwarfs.
                                            >>
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > I agree,... in general. I think that a good author could probably make
                                            > even this cliché seem fresh and bright, although I suppose it's unlikely
                                            > that I'd ever read it and find that out. But I prefer character-based
                                            > fiction, and a book that focuses on characterization can, in theory, use
                                            > any setting. But yes, I'd much prefer a fresh setting, if at all possible.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >> Hooray for Urban fantasy and authors who can get their story told in
                                            >> three books or less!!!!!
                                            >>
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Oops! Well, here I must disagree with you, to some extent. The fact is,
                                            > I'm already very, very tired of urban fantasy. I've enjoyed what I've
                                            > read, but it's getting old fast, so very fast.
                                            >
                                            > And like you, I read a lot, but that's why I don't demand that a story
                                            > be finished in three books or less. To my mind, it should simply take as
                                            > long as it takes, and I actually prefer series, rather than stand-alone
                                            > novels. I greatly enjoyed David Eddings' five-volume *Belgariad*, and
                                            > even his five-volume sequel that told the exact same story all over
                                            > again. And although they started out as children's books (it's hard to
                                            > consider the last few as written for children, though juvenile might be
                                            > a reasonable term), I can't complain about J. K. Rowling's seven-volume
                                            > *Harry Potter* story.
                                            >
                                            > On the other hand, I stuck with Robert Jordan's *Wheel of Time* series
                                            > for TEN volumes before finally giving up in disgust. That was
                                            > considerably longer than I should have, because the last few volumes
                                            > didn't go ANYWHERE. I don't know what he's up to now, and I guess I
                                            > don't care. I'm really disgusted with him!
                                            >
                                            > But as long as the story doesn't lose what brought me to the series in
                                            > the first place, I'm willing to go on as long as necessary. If it's all
                                            > one story, that can often be quite a long time. Unfortunately, a series
                                            > that is simply a line of sequels will often lose steam long before the
                                            > author stops writing. I'm sure there are publishing reasons - economic
                                            > reasons, I should say - for that. But a good author must - MUST - stop
                                            > before he or she runs out of something new to say about a world. Much as
                                            > I loved Anne McCaffrey's *Dragonflight* (1968), for example, she kept
                                            > writing sequels for far too long.
                                            >
                                            > Bill
                                            >
                                            > --
                                            > I will remind you all of the three comment rule: be patient, try to
                                            > explain first, and only after they've said 3 stupid things, then can you
                                            > whack them with a 2x4. - PZ Myers, Pharyngula blog
                                            >
                                          • The Bohemian Piano
                                            True, The Sword of Shannara was not quite as good as the rest of his novels, but for a novel written by a 17 year old, I was most impressed. That series made
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Jul 22 3:55 PM
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              True, The Sword of Shannara was not quite as good as the rest of his novels,
                                              but for a novel written by a 17 year old, I was most impressed. That series
                                              made Terry Brooks one of my "must buy" authors, which include CS Lewis, and
                                              Stephen Lawhead. Tolkien's not there simply because I own all his books.

                                              ---
                                              The Bohemian Piano
                                              ICQ 38606282
                                              MSN bohemian_piano@...
                                              YIM bohemian_piano

                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com]
                                              On Behalf Of Richard Claypool
                                              Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 3:44 AM
                                              To: Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [Fantasy_Books] Is the shadow receding?

                                              the sword of shanara wasn't that good, but the series did get better. The
                                              2nd series was my fav of the Shanara books. I really never read beyond the
                                              2nd series.

                                              Rick

                                              aim
                                              rclaypo
                                              skype
                                              lord_of_beer
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              From: "William C. Garthright" <billg@...>
                                              To: <Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com>
                                              Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 12:52 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [Fantasy_Books] Is the shadow receding?


                                              >
                                              >> An unfortunate side effect of the voracious reading habits meant that in
                                              >> the nineties I could not read anything that had an elf or a dwarf or
                                              >> anything like that in it. TSR and Forgotten Realms have ruined the whole

                                              >> genre of quest fantasy for me.
                                              >>
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > I've become very tired of the standard elf/dwarf fantasies, too, but I
                                              > can't blame TSR and Forgotten Realms for it. I know they've published a
                                              > ton of books based on the role-playing game, but I always suspected
                                              > they'd be pretty bad (the game, though, I think is great, though I've
                                              > never actually played it in person). I finally read the *Dragonlance
                                              > Chronicles* trilogy by Margaret Weiss and Tracy Hickman, because I read
                                              > such glowing reviews of them, but I wasn't overly impressed (not
                                              > terrible, but certainly not great). If that's the best, then I didn't
                                              > miss much by not reading the others.
                                              >
                                              > Still, I've read plenty of poor fantasy that used the same basic Tolkien
                                              > standards. And that definitely includes Terry Brooks' *The Sword of
                                              > Shannara*, which seemed to be a near plagiarism of Tolkien's work. It
                                              > would take a lot to make this genre fresh again.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >> Fortunately there are several authors that are actually original and a
                                              >> pleasure to read. I particularly like authors like Naomi Novik and Lois
                                              >> McMaster Bujold who rely more upon the characterisations than the fantasy

                                              >> worlds.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > I'm not familiar with Naomi Novik. I'll have to check her out. But
                                              > Bujold's *The Curse of Chalion* (2001) was amazing. It was such a breath
                                              > of fresh air, so unique and fascinating, and her characterization, as
                                              > usual, was superb. I really can't praise it enough. I must admit that
                                              > I've gotten tired of magic, too - at least, the same old magic that
                                              > nearly all fantasy novels use. But this was all based on the nature of
                                              > her world's gods - and a very unusual nature it was. The "magic" was
                                              > simply a consequence of their effect on the world. Superb!
                                              >
                                              > The sequel, *Paladin of Souls* (2003), was just as good, I thought,
                                              > because she had more to say about this unique world than was covered in
                                              > the first book. *The Hallowed Hunt* (2005) - the third in the series,
                                              > though with completely different characters and setting - was also very
                                              > good, but it didn't have quite the impact of the first two. I think that
                                              > was because there really wasn't anything new to say about the whole
                                              > situation. Not much, anyway. The first two were REALLY refreshing, though.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >> Of course I will always have time for anything that has dragons in it
                                              >> as they are my particular obsession.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Have you tried Patricia Brigg's *Dragon Bones* (2002), and the sequel,
                                              > *Dragon Blood* (2003)? Very impressive, character-based fantasy. I must
                                              > admit that I'm just as tired of dragons, in general, as elves and
                                              > dwarves, but these are definitely an exception. She's an author to watch.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >> Anyway, I think that although Tolkien still has an influence anything
                                              >> influenced by him nowadays feels old and tired and that there should be
                                              >> new fantasy that doesn't rely on the cliched images of the beautiful
                                              >> elves and the gruff dwarfs.
                                              >>
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > I agree,... in general. I think that a good author could probably make
                                              > even this cliché seem fresh and bright, although I suppose it's unlikely
                                              > that I'd ever read it and find that out. But I prefer character-based
                                              > fiction, and a book that focuses on characterization can, in theory, use
                                              > any setting. But yes, I'd much prefer a fresh setting, if at all possible.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >> Hooray for Urban fantasy and authors who can get their story told in
                                              >> three books or less!!!!!
                                              >>
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Oops! Well, here I must disagree with you, to some extent. The fact is,
                                              > I'm already very, very tired of urban fantasy. I've enjoyed what I've
                                              > read, but it's getting old fast, so very fast.
                                              >
                                              > And like you, I read a lot, but that's why I don't demand that a story
                                              > be finished in three books or less. To my mind, it should simply take as
                                              > long as it takes, and I actually prefer series, rather than stand-alone
                                              > novels. I greatly enjoyed David Eddings' five-volume *Belgariad*, and
                                              > even his five-volume sequel that told the exact same story all over
                                              > again. And although they started out as children's books (it's hard to
                                              > consider the last few as written for children, though juvenile might be
                                              > a reasonable term), I can't complain about J. K. Rowling's seven-volume
                                              > *Harry Potter* story.
                                              >
                                              > On the other hand, I stuck with Robert Jordan's *Wheel of Time* series
                                              > for TEN volumes before finally giving up in disgust. That was
                                              > considerably longer than I should have, because the last few volumes
                                              > didn't go ANYWHERE. I don't know what he's up to now, and I guess I
                                              > don't care. I'm really disgusted with him!
                                              >
                                              > But as long as the story doesn't lose what brought me to the series in
                                              > the first place, I'm willing to go on as long as necessary. If it's all
                                              > one story, that can often be quite a long time. Unfortunately, a series
                                              > that is simply a line of sequels will often lose steam long before the
                                              > author stops writing. I'm sure there are publishing reasons - economic
                                              > reasons, I should say - for that. But a good author must - MUST - stop
                                              > before he or she runs out of something new to say about a world. Much as
                                              > I loved Anne McCaffrey's *Dragonflight* (1968), for example, she kept
                                              > writing sequels for far too long.
                                              >
                                              > Bill
                                              >
                                              > --
                                              > I will remind you all of the three comment rule: be patient, try to
                                              > explain first, and only after they've said 3 stupid things, then can you
                                              > whack them with a 2x4. - PZ Myers, Pharyngula blog
                                              >




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                                            • William C. Garthright
                                              ... According to Wikipedia, Terry Brooks was born in 1944, and *The Sword of Shannara* was published in 1977, when he would have been 33 years old. Is there
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Jul 23 11:28 AM
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                                                > True, The Sword of Shannara was not quite as good as the rest of his novels, but for a novel written by a 17 year old, I was most impressed.


                                                According to Wikipedia, Terry Brooks was born in 1944, and *The Sword of
                                                Shannara* was published in 1977, when he would have been 33 years old.
                                                Is there something I'm missing here?

                                                I must admit that I've avoided his other books after reading that one,
                                                since it seemed to be nearly identical to Tolkien's work. Maybe that
                                                wasn't deliberate - I'm willing to accept that he just loved *The Lord
                                                of the Rings* that much - but it still gave me a very bad first
                                                impression. In fact, the only other of his books I've read is *Magic
                                                Kingdom for Sale* (1986), and that only because I didn't notice the
                                                author's name when I bought it. I did like that book, but I found it
                                                hard to believe there was anything more to say about that fantasy world,
                                                so I didn't get any of the sequels.

                                                After all these years, I'm willing to let it go, but I was pretty
                                                disgusted with him for awhile. So I was concerned when you said he was
                                                only 17 years old at the time. That would make a difference, if true,
                                                but it appears to me that he was actually in his 30's. Not so?

                                                Bill

                                                --
                                                The White House was repeatedly warned in advance that attacking Iraq
                                                would strengthen al Qaeda. We did and it did. That's where we are now.
                                                The White House has no excuse and no answer. -Josh Marshall
                                              • karl barnes
                                                You know,everyone who states that they don t like Brooks always makes the assertions that he is a Tolkein rip-off. I really don t see him as such. Sure he was
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Jul 23 12:32 PM
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                                                  You know,everyone who states that they don't like Brooks always makes the assertions that he is a Tolkein rip-off. I really don't see him as such. Sure he was inspired by Tolkien, he didn't write the same exact story as Tolkien. There are similairities,but it is NOT the same story.

                                                  Now the fellow , who wrote The Iron Tower Trilogy,McKierran(sp?), now he is one that rip-off can be thrown at.


                                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                                  From: William C. Garthright <billg@...>
                                                  To: Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 1:28:54 PM
                                                  Subject: Re: [Fantasy_Books] Is the shadow receding?


                                                  > True, The Sword of Shannara was not quite as good as the rest of his novels, but for a novel written by a 17 year old, I was most impressed.

                                                  According to Wikipedia, Terry Brooks was born in 1944, and *The Sword of
                                                  Shannara* was published in 1977, when he would have been 33 years old.
                                                  Is there something I'm missing here?

                                                  I must admit that I've avoided his other books after reading that one,
                                                  since it seemed to be nearly identical to Tolkien's work. Maybe that
                                                  wasn't deliberate - I'm willing to accept that he just loved *The Lord
                                                  of the Rings* that much - but it still gave me a very bad first
                                                  impression. In fact, the only other of his books I've read is *Magic
                                                  Kingdom for Sale* (1986), and that only because I didn't notice the
                                                  author's name when I bought it. I did like that book, but I found it
                                                  hard to believe there was anything more to say about that fantasy world,
                                                  so I didn't get any of the sequels.

                                                  After all these years, I'm willing to let it go, but I was pretty
                                                  disgusted with him for awhile. So I was concerned when you said he was
                                                  only 17 years old at the time. That would make a difference, if true,
                                                  but it appears to me that he was actually in his 30's. Not so?

                                                  Bill

                                                  --
                                                  The White House was repeatedly warned in advance that attacking Iraq
                                                  would strengthen al Qaeda. We did and it did. That's where we are now.
                                                  The White House has no excuse and no answer. -Josh Marshall



                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • The Bohemian Piano
                                                  Terry Brooks wrote the Sword of Shannara as a High School project. I m sure there would have been changes before it was published... ... The Bohemian Piano
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Jul 23 2:18 PM
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                                                    Terry Brooks wrote the Sword of Shannara as a High School project. I'm sure
                                                    there would have been changes before it was published...

                                                    ---
                                                    The Bohemian Piano
                                                    ICQ 38606282
                                                    MSN bohemian_piano@...
                                                    YIM bohemian_piano

                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com]
                                                    On Behalf Of karl barnes
                                                    Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 5:33 AM
                                                    To: Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: Re: [Fantasy_Books] Is the shadow receding?

                                                    You know,everyone who states that they don't like Brooks always makes the
                                                    assertions that he is a Tolkein rip-off. I really don't see him as such.
                                                    Sure he was inspired by Tolkien, he didn't write the same exact story as
                                                    Tolkien. There are similairities,but it is NOT the same story.

                                                    Now the fellow , who wrote The Iron Tower Trilogy,McKierran(sp?), now he is
                                                    one that rip-off can be thrown at.


                                                    ----- Original Message ----
                                                    From: William C. Garthright <billg@...>
                                                    To: Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 1:28:54 PM
                                                    Subject: Re: [Fantasy_Books] Is the shadow receding?


                                                    > True, The Sword of Shannara was not quite as good as the rest of his
                                                    novels, but for a novel written by a 17 year old, I was most impressed.

                                                    According to Wikipedia, Terry Brooks was born in 1944, and *The Sword of
                                                    Shannara* was published in 1977, when he would have been 33 years old.
                                                    Is there something I'm missing here?

                                                    I must admit that I've avoided his other books after reading that one,
                                                    since it seemed to be nearly identical to Tolkien's work. Maybe that
                                                    wasn't deliberate - I'm willing to accept that he just loved *The Lord
                                                    of the Rings* that much - but it still gave me a very bad first
                                                    impression. In fact, the only other of his books I've read is *Magic
                                                    Kingdom for Sale* (1986), and that only because I didn't notice the
                                                    author's name when I bought it. I did like that book, but I found it
                                                    hard to believe there was anything more to say about that fantasy world,
                                                    so I didn't get any of the sequels.

                                                    After all these years, I'm willing to let it go, but I was pretty
                                                    disgusted with him for awhile. So I was concerned when you said he was
                                                    only 17 years old at the time. That would make a difference, if true,
                                                    but it appears to me that he was actually in his 30's. Not so?

                                                    Bill

                                                    --
                                                    The White House was repeatedly warned in advance that attacking Iraq
                                                    would strengthen al Qaeda. We did and it did. That's where we are now.
                                                    The White House has no excuse and no answer. -Josh Marshall



                                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                                                    Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  • Peta Smith
                                                    SNAP! The only books I have read by Terry Brooks are Sword of Shannara which I stopped reading after Gandalf (whoops, insert name of substitute wizard..) fell
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Jul 23 2:57 PM
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                                                      SNAP! The only books I have read by Terry Brooks' are Sword of Shannara
                                                      which I stopped reading after Gandalf (whoops, insert name of substitute
                                                      wizard..) fell down the bottomless pit and came back to life ... again. I
                                                      also read Magic Kingdom for Sale after I was given it for Christmas. I made
                                                      it to the end but didn't go looking for sequals.

                                                      We have so much in common Bill!!

                                                      Perhaps there is confusion between Brooks and Christopher Paolili who was
                                                      only 17 when he started Eragon. I have read Eragon and can forgive Paolini
                                                      much for his youth. Pretty good effort I reckon!

                                                      Cheers, Peta
                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      From: "William C. Garthright" <billg@...>
                                                      To: <Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com>
                                                      Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 4:28 AM
                                                      Subject: Re: [Fantasy_Books] Is the shadow receding?


                                                      >
                                                      >> True, The Sword of Shannara was not quite as good as the rest of his
                                                      >> novels, but for a novel written by a 17 year old, I was most impressed.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > According to Wikipedia, Terry Brooks was born in 1944, and *The Sword of
                                                      > Shannara* was published in 1977, when he would have been 33 years old.
                                                      > Is there something I'm missing here?
                                                      >
                                                      > I must admit that I've avoided his other books after reading that one,
                                                      > since it seemed to be nearly identical to Tolkien's work. Maybe that
                                                      > wasn't deliberate - I'm willing to accept that he just loved *The Lord
                                                      > of the Rings* that much - but it still gave me a very bad first
                                                      > impression. In fact, the only other of his books I've read is *Magic
                                                      > Kingdom for Sale* (1986), and that only because I didn't notice the
                                                      > author's name when I bought it. I did like that book, but I found it
                                                      > hard to believe there was anything more to say about that fantasy world,
                                                      > so I didn't get any of the sequels.
                                                      >
                                                      > After all these years, I'm willing to let it go, but I was pretty
                                                      > disgusted with him for awhile. So I was concerned when you said he was
                                                      > only 17 years old at the time. That would make a difference, if true,
                                                      > but it appears to me that he was actually in his 30's. Not so?
                                                      >
                                                      > Bill
                                                      >
                                                      > --
                                                      > The White House was repeatedly warned in advance that attacking Iraq
                                                      > would strengthen al Qaeda. We did and it did. That's where we are now.
                                                      > The White House has no excuse and no answer. -Josh Marshall
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > --
                                                      > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                                      > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
                                                      > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.14/912 - Release Date:
                                                      > 22/07/2007 7:02 PM
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                    • William C. Garthright
                                                      ... Well, I must admit that it s been nearly 30 years since I read it, so I don t remember it that well. You may be right. I just know how it struck me back
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Jul 23 6:53 PM
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                                                        > You know,everyone who states that they don't like Brooks always makes the assertions that he is a Tolkein rip-off. I really don't see him as such. Sure he was inspired by Tolkien, he didn't write the same exact story as Tolkien. There are similairities,but it is NOT the same story.
                                                        >


                                                        Well, I must admit that it's been nearly 30 years since I read it, so I
                                                        don't remember it that well. You may be right. I just know how it struck
                                                        me back then.


                                                        > Now the fellow , who wrote The Iron Tower Trilogy,McKierran(sp?), now he is one that rip-off can be thrown at.
                                                        >


                                                        I haven't read that one. But Wikipedia says "The Iron Tower Trilogy was
                                                        written as the backstory to a proposed "sequel" to J. R. R. Tolkien's
                                                        The Lord of the Rings novel, so unsurprisingly it strongly resembles
                                                        that work." If it really was supposed to be set in the same world, that
                                                        would probably explain at least part of it (though it seems like there
                                                        are close similarities even among the characters).

                                                        Bill

                                                        --
                                                        Faith is a cop-out. If the only way you can accept an assertion is by
                                                        faith, then you are conceding that it can't be taken on its own merits.
                                                        - Dan Barker
                                                      • William C. Garthright
                                                        ... http://terrybrooks.net/bio.html This biography indicates that he was a writer since high school, but that he didn t read *The Lord of the Rings* until he
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Jul 23 7:04 PM
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                                                          > Terry Brooks wrote the Sword of Shannara as a High School project. I'm sure there would have been changes before it was published...
                                                          >


                                                          http://terrybrooks.net/bio.html

                                                          This biography indicates that he was "a writer since high school," but
                                                          that he didn't read *The Lord of the Rings* until he was in college. And
                                                          then he spent the next seven years writing *The Sword of Shannara*. That
                                                          would seem reasonable if it was published when he was 33.

                                                          If it really was a high school project, it's certainly impressive, and
                                                          I'd be quite willing to overlook the similarities to any other book. I
                                                          don't want to be overly critical. Heck, ALL writers impress me that they
                                                          can even finish a book, and this one was well-written, as I recall. But
                                                          it doesn't appear that he was 17 when he wrote it, as far as I can tell.

                                                          Bill

                                                          --
                                                          Hell is where cowards have sent heroes. - Lemuel K. Washburn
                                                        • The Bohemian Piano
                                                          Hmm, I remember reading about that on the cover of one of the early editions of Sword of Shannara. Perhaps, though, it was wrong. I don t own that edition,
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Jul 24 3:20 AM
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                                                            Hmm, I remember reading about that on the cover of one of the early editions
                                                            of Sword of Shannara. Perhaps, though, it was wrong. I don't own that
                                                            edition, only a fairly late one.
                                                            Oh well. Next time I'm in a library, I'll see if they've got an old edition
                                                            and follow this up. Of course, most libraries have their Terry Brooks books
                                                            stolen in very short time for some reason...

                                                            ---
                                                            The Bohemian Piano
                                                            ICQ 38606282
                                                            MSN bohemian_piano@...
                                                            YIM bohemian_piano
                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                            From: Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com]
                                                            On Behalf Of William C. Garthright
                                                            Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2007 12:04 PM
                                                            To: Fantasy_Books@yahoogroups.com
                                                            Subject: Re: [Fantasy_Books] Is the shadow receding?


                                                            > Terry Brooks wrote the Sword of Shannara as a High School project. I'm
                                                            sure there would have been changes before it was published...
                                                            >


                                                            http://terrybrooks.net/bio.html

                                                            This biography indicates that he was "a writer since high school," but
                                                            that he didn't read *The Lord of the Rings* until he was in college. And
                                                            then he spent the next seven years writing *The Sword of Shannara*. That
                                                            would seem reasonable if it was published when he was 33.

                                                            If it really was a high school project, it's certainly impressive, and
                                                            I'd be quite willing to overlook the similarities to any other book. I
                                                            don't want to be overly critical. Heck, ALL writers impress me that they
                                                            can even finish a book, and this one was well-written, as I recall. But
                                                            it doesn't appear that he was 17 when he wrote it, as far as I can tell.

                                                            Bill

                                                            --
                                                            Hell is where cowards have sent heroes. - Lemuel K. Washburn



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