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Re: A more rigorous definition of "mind"

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  • Charles Goodwin
    ... From: wildernessgal01 ... Hyperdimensionality occurs for real in string theories. The way it was being used by the person I
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 28, 2002
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "wildernessgal01" <wildernessgal01@...>


      > Regarding whether or not the brain has any special properties from a
      > quantum view point, it sounds like you are actualy wondering if the
      > brain is just a collection of biochemical tissues or if it is an
      > entity greater than the sum of it's collected parts. Are you sure
      > that hyperdimensional interference patterns do actually exist within
      > the nueral network of the brain? I come from an electronic background
      > and i though i've never thought of it, i suppose there is probably
      > some interference patterns of some sort in the human brain, but i am
      > fuzzy on the hyperdimensionality of them. I was under the impression
      > that hyper and multi dimensionality were controversial existences.
      > Correct me if i am wrong about that.

      Hyperdimensionality occurs for real in string theories. The way it was being
      used by the person I replied to was (in my opinion) only an abstract,
      mathematical sense.

      Charles
    • june.shippey@ntlworld.com
      ... [Gordon]Yes but these are mainly small!
      Message 2 of 24 , Mar 1, 2002
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        Charles Goodwin wrote:
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "wildernessgal01" <wildernessgal01@...>
        >
        > > Regarding whether or not the brain has any special properties from a
        > > quantum view point, it sounds like you are actualy wondering if the
        > > brain is just a collection of biochemical tissues or if it is an
        > > entity greater than the sum of it's collected parts. Are you sure
        > > that hyperdimensional interference patterns do actually exist within
        > > the nueral network of the brain? I come from an electronic background
        > > and i though i've never thought of it, i suppose there is probably
        > > some interference patterns of some sort in the human brain, but i am
        > > fuzzy on the hyperdimensionality of them. I was under the impression
        > > that hyper and multi dimensionality were controversial existences.
        > > Correct me if i am wrong about that.
        >
        > Hyperdimensionality occurs for real in string theories. The way it was being
        > used by the person I replied to was (in my opinion) only an abstract,
        > mathematical sense.
        >
        > Charles

        [Gordon]Yes but these are mainly small!
      • Charles Goodwin
        ... From: ... True. So you agree that the use by whoever I answered originally did NOT have anything to do with hypothetical real
        Message 3 of 24 , Mar 1, 2002
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <june.shippey@...>
          > >
          > > Hyperdimensionality occurs for real in string theories. The way it was being
          > > used by the person I replied to was (in my opinion) only an abstract,
          > > mathematical sense.
          > >
          > > Charles
          >
          > [Gordon]Yes but these are mainly small!

          True. So you agree that the use by whoever I answered originally did NOT have
          anything to do with hypothetical real dimensions, only abstract ones used in a
          mathematical description of the brain (or indeed almost anything).

          Charles
        • Aki Tasa
          Scott Somerville wrote on 24/02/02 3:14 PM: [...] ... But why is it that a trumpet produces more sound than a mouthpiece of a trumpet only?
          Message 4 of 24 , Mar 2, 2002
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            Scott Somerville <scott@...> wrote on 24/02/02 3:14 PM:

            [...]

            > Think about the way a sound wave propagates through a musical
            > instrument: a blast of white noise from the mouthpiece of a trumpet
            > interferes with itself because of the internal shape of that instrument
            > until only a pure note (with some harmonics) emerges. The
            > hyperdimensional phase space of a complex neural network is a lot more
            > complicated than the shape of a trumpet, but the basic principles should
            > be the same.


            But why is it that a trumpet produces more sound than a mouthpiece of a
            trumpet only? There must be other things besides interference happening.

            My theory is that one of the other things is distortion. Some inaudible low
            frequency sounds are distorted into audible sounds.

            Can we incorporate this into the mind - musical instrument analogy?

            Aki
          • june.shippey@ntlworld.com
            ... [Gordon] Sure but are they aware of it?
            Message 5 of 24 , Mar 3, 2002
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              Charles Goodwin wrote:
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: <june.shippey@...>
              > > >
              > > > Hyperdimensionality occurs for real in string theories. The way it was being
              > > > used by the person I replied to was (in my opinion) only an abstract,
              > > > mathematical sense.
              > > >
              > > > Charles
              > >
              > > [Gordon]Yes but these are mainly small!
              >
              > True. So you agree that the use by whoever I answered originally did NOT have
              > anything to do with hypothetical real dimensions, only abstract ones used in a
              > mathematical description of the brain (or indeed almost anything).
              >
              > Charles

              [Gordon] Sure but are they aware of it?
            • Gene
              I thought that the mouth piece of a trumpet was essentially a noise generator acting to excite the natural frequencies of the trumpet. The musician varies the
              Message 6 of 24 , Mar 3, 2002
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                I thought that the mouth piece of a trumpet was essentially a noise
                generator
                acting to excite the natural frequencies of the trumpet. The musician
                varies
                the excitation energy to control the nuances of amplitude and
                alters the resonant frequencies of the effective cavity with his fingers.
                When
                the wavelength of the group wave in the cavity matches a natural frequency
                the affect is additive. Characteristic sounds of an instrument are related
                to
                it's harmonic response.

                Check out this site: http://www.whc.net/rjones/jlynch/natres.html

                If you distort a waveform the distortion products (sum and difference,
                clipping,
                harmonic, etc.) do not possess more energy than the original.

                Gene

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Aki Tasa" <jskogste@...>
                To: <Fabric-of-Reality@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Saturday, March 02, 2002 6:08 PM
                Subject: Re: A more rigorous definition of "mind"


                >
                >
                > But why is it that a trumpet produces more sound than a mouthpiece of a
                > trumpet only? There must be other things besides interference happening.
                >
                > My theory is that one of the other things is distortion. Some inaudible
                low
                > frequency sounds are distorted into audible sounds.
                >
                > Can we incorporate this into the mind - musical instrument analogy?
                >
                > Aki
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >
              • Aki Tasa
                ... [...] That would work very well if the audience was sitting inside the trumpet! : ) Resonance is interference inside a cavity. For waves with resonance
                Message 7 of 24 , Mar 4, 2002
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                  Gene <g-h@...> wrote on 03/03/02 6:54 PM:

                  > I thought that the mouth piece of a trumpet was essentially a noise
                  > generator acting to excite the natural frequencies of the trumpet.
                  > The musician varies the excitation energy to control the nuances
                  > of amplitude and alters the resonant frequencies of the effective
                  > cavity with his fingers.
                  [...]

                  That would work very well if the audience was sitting inside the trumpet! : )

                  Resonance is interference inside a cavity. For waves with resonance
                  frequency outside the cavity the cavity is a 100% absorbing black body.

                  Macroscopic distortion is a phenomenon where elementary quantum
                  waves that are part a low frequency macroscopic wave start to interfere
                  destructively, and at the same time elementary quantum waves that
                  are part of many high frequency macroscopic waves start to interfere
                  constructively.

                  Or maybe not. But they say QM is linear, which means there's no
                  distortion of fundamental waves.

                  Back to trumpets. Why is it that the frequencies that get trapped
                  inside a trumpet are the same frequencies that are heard outside
                  the trumpet?


                  Aki
                • Gene
                  ... From: Aki Tasa To: Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 3:21 PM Subject: Re: A more rigorous
                  Message 8 of 24 , Mar 6, 2002
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Aki Tasa" <jskogste@...>
                    To: <Fabric-of-Reality@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 3:21 PM
                    Subject: Re: A more rigorous definition of "mind"


                    >
                    > Back to trumpets. Why is it that the frequencies that get trapped
                    > inside a trumpet are the same frequencies that are heard outside
                    > the trumpet?
                    >
                    >
                    > Aki
                    >
                    >

                    In my original message I mentioned group waves - I meant crowd waves.
                    Of course crowd waves are different than electromagnetic waves. Note
                    that I mentioned an effective cavity - the cavity is not acoustically
                    isolated.
                    I suspect that the answer to your question is that the effective cavity of
                    the
                    instrument allows a percentage of the stored acoustic energy to do work
                    to air molecules outside the effective cavity. I have often wondered if the
                    flair on the end of the trumpet is essentially an impedance matching device
                    to maximize energy transfer. I suspect it has something to do with that -
                    I know rocket engine exhaust bells are tuned. Anyway, to make the trumpet
                    sound louder I think you just blow harder to add more available energy.

                    Air inside of a long tube has a springy quality. Pressure waves can move
                    back and forth inside a tube before escaping. Pulse jets work on this
                    principle in that an exposion in the tube drives mass (air and combustion
                    products) out the back resulting in a low pressure that sucks in more air
                    and
                    fuel into the chamber from the front. The system resonates at an
                    irritating
                    frequency. I think a trumpet is just a complicated long folded tube where
                    the musician can change the effective length with her fingers and the
                    exothermic reaction is replaced with compressed air from the lips.

                    I don't mean to destroy the beauty of an instrument. Obviously the
                    properties of this system have the capability to produce a strong emotional
                    response on the mind. Notice my attempt to tie this back to the thread
                    title :)

                    Gene
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Aki Tasa
                    Gene wrote on 07/03/02 7:15 AM: [...] ... Artifical neural nets have specially designed distortion producers. Sigmoid function usually. What
                    Message 9 of 24 , Mar 8, 2002
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                      Gene <g-h@...> wrote on 07/03/02 7:15 AM:

                      [...]
                      > I don't mean to destroy the beauty of an instrument. Obviously the
                      > properties of this system have the capability to produce a strong emotional
                      > response on the mind. Notice my attempt to tie this back to the thread
                      > title :)


                      Artifical neural nets have specially designed distortion producers. Sigmoid
                      function usually. What is happening in neural net is all possible kinds of
                      distortion, and then filtering.

                      Can some macro states of mind be explained with distortion and filtering?

                      Insanity could be too much distortion and/or too little attenuation of high
                      frequencies.

                      The "I'm a trumpet" type of insanity could be too much distortion in
                      personality generator. I read some articles about split brain operations,
                      and it seems to me that when we look closely at the brain, we don't find a
                      personality, but we find a personalities generator.


                      Aki
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