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Re: [FT897] GROUNDING / Weird sounding warbling tone

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  • Joel
    Not sure what your point is on that. If I add a ground rod to my shack and tie it into my equipment that is also grounded via the power outlet, I am creating
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 20, 2013
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      Not sure what your point is on that.

      If I add a ground rod to my shack and tie it into my equipment that is
      also
      grounded via the power outlet, I am creating a system with two different
      ground systems which violates the NEC and may create insurance problems
      with a claim. My understanding is that all grounds must be tied
      together at
      a common point - this would include any ground that had a path back to the
      power distribution panel via my rig to the power plug. In my case it
      would be impossible
      to bind a ground outside my operating position with the one on the other
      side of the house
      where the utilities are grounded.

      Someone knowledgeable please correct me if I am mistaken.

      If I somehow had a RF ground that was totally separate from the AC mains
      , that
      would be a different story. But this is impossible for my equipment.

      My point is that In my station, I do not need an RF ground for good
      functioning of the equipment.

      Cheers





      On 6/20/2013 10:41 AM, raydeeoh08@... wrote:
      > Electrical (utility) ground is NOT a RF ground.
      >
      > 73,
      > Robert
      > VE7ZN
      >
      >
      > Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPhone
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      > *From: * Joel <hiqual@...>;
      > *To: * <FT897@yahoogroups.com>;
      > *Subject: * Re: [FT897] GROUNDING / Weird sounding warbling tone
      > *Sent: * Thu, Jun 20, 2013 2:52:08 PM
      >
      > On the subject of grounding and RFI - here is my experience with my
      > FT-897 and
      > grounding in my own shack.
      >
      > First off I am an Heretick - I have *no ground connection* other than
      > what exists through
      > the power plug on the wall. I have a 2nd floor shack and no easy way to
      > install a ground
      > rod under me - last time I tried I ended up drilling into 12 inches of
      > concrete in an attempt
      > to reach earth and ran out of drill. Actually I decided not to install
      > one then because I would
      > then have an out of code ground rod that was not tied in with the
      > service panel ground rod.
      > My understanding is that NEC requires all grounding systems to be tied
      > together at the
      > utility ground.
      >
      > My rig works very well and I have no problems with RFI now that I have
      > mitigated them and
      > run antenna connections carefully. I installed a grounding bar on my
      > shack desk and tie all
      > equipment to this one bus with short runs of wire. 10 Ga stranded for
      > the long runs 14 ga
      > solid for the short ones.
      >
      > I run a multi band trap dipole fed with coax as well as a 60 meter loop
      > fed with 450 ohm ladder line that comes into the
      > shack. Also a 6 meter squalo and 2 VHF / UHF antennas. I tune that
      > loop for all bands 80-6 with a LDG 600pro
      > tuner - I also do that with the dipole as needed. I also use a MFJ 993
      > b on occasion. I run
      > up to 600 watts out from my amplifier with no issues on the FT897.
      > Nothing in the shack is
      > hot with RF even at high power ( now that I made those changes ).
      >
      > I have had to make sure that all my coax runs are kept separated by a
      > few inches , run neatly and
      > kept at least 8 inches away from the ladder line. I had to add ferrites
      > to USB cables to the PC that
      > I use for rig control and Digital modes. I use toroids on the CAT cable
      > to the rig.
      >
      > In the past 40 + years as a Ham, I have run from many locations in
      > Condos , Apartments and such and never had to use
      > an earth ground. I have also had multiple locations where it was
      > convenient to run a ground and did so.
      >
      > You would think that a station like mine would need a good earth ground,
      > but my experience proves otherwise.
      >
      > Net so far - 212 DXCC entities in the last 18 months ( most with 100W )
      > . 1000+ 6 meter contacts 1000+ digital contacts..
      >
      > 73
      > Joel
      > KQ0J
      >
      > On 6/19/2013 11:42 PM, Alex Netherton wrote:
      > > "Tuner instructions say tuner should be "well-grounded" to the
      > transmitter
      > > from the GROUND post on the tuner. Does "well-grounded" simply mean
      > I run
      > > any gauge/any wire between the tuner (wing nut GND) and my FT897D (GND
      > > screw)?"
      > >
      > > Ah, no. It means that your transmitter *and* tuner should be
      > grounded to a
      > > good earth ground. An earth ground is ideally a braided copper strap of
      > > about 1 inch going from the back of the rig - tuner - etc to the ground
      > > outside the shack, which is (again) ideally a 4 foot ground rod made of
      > > copper (expensive!!!) or at least copper clad steel. Even more ideally,
      > > four of them in parallel.
      > >
      > > " Balanced Line-Fed Antenna - Tuner instructions say run a jumper
      > wire from
      > > Wire post to one of the two Balance Line posts. Does that mean I
      > simply run
      > > any gauge/any wire between the Wire post and the Balance Line post?"
      > Yes,
      > > but you still need a good ground.
      > >
      > > If you can't put in a good earth ground, try routing a wire of heavy
      > gauge
      > > to something made of metal that is ultimately connected to the earth. If
      > > you live far up in an apartment, I would suggest an MFJ Artificial
      > > Ground... They work! At any rate, a ground is necessary to keep pesky RF
      > > out of the shack.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > 73
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      > No virus found in this message.
      > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
      > Version: 2012.0.2242 / Virus Database: 3199/5926 - Release Date: 06/20/13
      >

      --
      KQØJ



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • bob
      ... Good earthing or rather bonding need not be expensive. I use the sort of copper tape used for wrapping some sorts of power cables, its about 50mm wide and
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 20, 2013
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        >
        > Electrical (utility) ground is NOT a RF ground.
        >
        Good earthing or rather bonding need not be expensive. I use the sort of copper tape used for wrapping some sorts of power cables, its about 50mm wide and about 0.1 mm thick (about 5mm^2)and is wrapped in a spiral around some power cable cores. Off cuts or ends of runs are not too hard to get hold of if you can find a local cable manufacturer. Nothing comes close to it for tying two pieces of equipment together electrically. Its thin enough to be bent and curved where ever you need ( and torn across like heavy paper if you have strong fingers)but wide enough to be ultra low inductance.

        Regards Bob ZS6BXI
      • n5dtx
        All hail the heretic!!! I love stories like this! (seriously!) It makes me feel better regarding some of the radio heresy I commit from time to time. Thanks
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 20, 2013
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          All hail the heretic!!!

          I love stories like this! (seriously!) It makes me feel better regarding some of the radio heresy I commit from time to time.

          Thanks for sharing Joel,

          Graham
          N5DTX

          --- In FT897@yahoogroups.com, Joel <hiqual@...> wrote:
          >
          > On the subject of grounding and RFI - here is my experience with my
          > FT-897 and
          > grounding in my own shack.
          >
          > First off I am an Heretick - I have *no ground connection* other than
          > what exists through
          > the power plug on the wall.
        • Dennis
          Simply put Joel, your RF ground IS NOT an electrical ground. If there are NO electrical connections (i.e - a ground wire from an outlet or breaker box to your
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 20, 2013
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            Simply put Joel, your RF ground IS NOT an electrical ground. If there
            are NO electrical connections (i.e - a ground wire from an outlet or
            breaker box to your RF ground) you ARE NOT in violation. If all that is
            tied (connected) to the RF ground are the chassis of radios and maybe
            shields of coax, there is NO ELECTRICAL CONNECTION - HENCE NO NEC
            VIOLATION - HENCE NO INSURANCE ISSUES.

            AN RF CONNECTION IS NOT AN ELECTRICAL CONNECTION!!!!

            HOWEVER, I will agree that a ground is not always necessary. If the
            antenna is placed far enough away from the shack or arranged in a way
            that RF is "pointing" away from the shack/equipment, there should be no
            issue with RF in the shack. Just like Joel, I do not use a ground and
            have no issues. This stuff is NOT rocket science, people. Just a
            little pre-planning and thinking before "JUST DOING" saves much aggravation!

            Dennis - N8BMB
            On 6/20/2013 10:52, Joel wrote:
            >
            > On the subject of grounding and RFI - here is my experience with my
            > FT-897 and
            > grounding in my own shack.
            >
            > First off I am an Heretick - I have *no ground connection* other than
            > what exists through
            > the power plug on the wall. I have a 2nd floor shack and no easy way to
            > install a ground
            > rod under me - last time I tried I ended up drilling into 12 inches of
            > concrete in an attempt
            > to reach earth and ran out of drill. Actually I decided not to install
            > one then because I would
            > then have an out of code ground rod that was not tied in with the
            > service panel ground rod.
            > My understanding is that NEC requires all grounding systems to be tied
            > together at the
            > utility ground.
            >
            > My rig works very well and I have no problems with RFI now that I have
            > mitigated them and
            > run antenna connections carefully. I installed a grounding bar on my
            > shack desk and tie all
            > equipment to this one bus with short runs of wire. 10 Ga stranded for
            > the long runs 14 ga
            > solid for the short ones.
            >
            > I run a multi band trap dipole fed with coax as well as a 60 meter loop
            > fed with 450 ohm ladder line that comes into the
            > shack. Also a 6 meter squalo and 2 VHF / UHF antennas. I tune that
            > loop for all bands 80-6 with a LDG 600pro
            > tuner - I also do that with the dipole as needed. I also use a MFJ 993
            > b on occasion. I run
            > up to 600 watts out from my amplifier with no issues on the FT897.
            > Nothing in the shack is
            > hot with RF even at high power ( now that I made those changes ).
            >
            > I have had to make sure that all my coax runs are kept separated by a
            > few inches , run neatly and
            > kept at least 8 inches away from the ladder line. I had to add ferrites
            > to USB cables to the PC that
            > I use for rig control and Digital modes. I use toroids on the CAT cable
            > to the rig.
            >
            > In the past 40 + years as a Ham, I have run from many locations in
            > Condos , Apartments and such and never had to use
            > an earth ground. I have also had multiple locations where it was
            > convenient to run a ground and did so.
            >
            > You would think that a station like mine would need a good earth ground,
            > but my experience proves otherwise.
            >
            > Net so far - 212 DXCC entities in the last 18 months ( most with 100W )
            > . 1000+ 6 meter contacts 1000+ digital contacts..
            >
            > 73
            > Joel
            > KQ0J
            >
            > On 6/19/2013 11:42 PM, Alex Netherton wrote:
            > > "Tuner instructions say tuner should be "well-grounded" to the
            > transmitter
            > > from the GROUND post on the tuner. Does "well-grounded" simply mean
            > I run
            > > any gauge/any wire between the tuner (wing nut GND) and my FT897D (GND
            > > screw)?"
            > >
            > > Ah, no. It means that your transmitter *and* tuner should be
            > grounded to a
            > > good earth ground. An earth ground is ideally a braided copper strap of
            > > about 1 inch going from the back of the rig - tuner - etc to the ground
            > > outside the shack, which is (again) ideally a 4 foot ground rod made of
            > > copper (expensive!!!) or at least copper clad steel. Even more ideally,
            > > four of them in parallel.
            > >
            > > " Balanced Line-Fed Antenna - Tuner instructions say run a jumper
            > wire from
            > > Wire post to one of the two Balance Line posts. Does that mean I
            > simply run
            > > any gauge/any wire between the Wire post and the Balance Line post?"
            > Yes,
            > > but you still need a good ground.
            > >
            > > If you can't put in a good earth ground, try routing a wire of heavy
            > gauge
            > > to something made of metal that is ultimately connected to the earth. If
            > > you live far up in an apartment, I would suggest an MFJ Artificial
            > > Ground... They work! At any rate, a ground is necessary to keep pesky RF
            > > out of the shack.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > 73
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Joel
            Thanks for the clarification! ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 20, 2013
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              Thanks for the clarification!

              On 6/20/2013 4:19 PM, Dennis wrote:
              >
              > Simply put Joel, your RF ground IS NOT an electrical ground. If there
              > are NO electrical connections (i.e - a ground wire from an outlet or
              > breaker box to your RF ground) you ARE NOT in violation. If all that is
              > tied (connected) to the RF ground are the chassis of radios and maybe
              > shields of coax, there is NO ELECTRICAL CONNECTION - HENCE NO NEC
              > VIOLATION - HENCE NO INSURANCE ISSUES.
              >
              > AN RF CONNECTION IS NOT AN ELECTRICAL CONNECTION!!!!
              >
              > HOWEVER, I will agree that a ground is not always necessary. If the
              > antenna is placed far enough away from the shack or arranged in a way
              > that RF is "pointing" away from the shack/equipment, there should be no
              > issue with RF in the shack. Just like Joel, I do not use a ground and
              > have no issues. This stuff is NOT rocket science, people. Just a
              > little pre-planning and thinking before "JUST DOING" saves much
              > aggravation!
              >
              > Dennis - N8BMB
              > On 6/20/2013 10:52, Joel wrote:
              >



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Alex Netherton
              For those who are hard nosed about grounding, I wonder about 2nd or 3rd or higher apartment dwellers? I think a good counterpoise can go a long way, and the
              Message 6 of 22 , Jul 2 6:36 PM
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                For those who are hard nosed about grounding, I wonder about 2nd or 3rd or
                higher apartment dwellers? I think a good counterpoise can go a long way,
                and the MFJ "Artificial Ground" can work wonders.
                My $.02
                KC4BO


                On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 3:55 PM, n5dtx <dgbryant@...> wrote:

                > **
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > All hail the heretic!!!
                >
                > I love stories like this! (seriously!) It makes me feel better regarding
                > some of the radio heresy I commit from time to time.
                >
                > Thanks for sharing Joel,
                >
                > Graham
                > N5DTX
                >
                > --- In FT897@yahoogroups.com, Joel <hiqual@...> wrote:
                > >
                > > On the subject of grounding and RFI - here is my experience with my
                > > FT-897 and
                > > grounding in my own shack.
                > >
                > > First off I am an Heretick - I have *no ground connection* other than
                > > what exists through
                > > the power plug on the wall.
                >
                >
                >



                --
                Alex Netherton
                http://blueridgediscovery.com


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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