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Re: [FT897] Digi mode power

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  • Davekh
    Try it with your 897 set to DIG mode - not USB or LSB That should throw some power out.. Dave H G0CER
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 10, 2013
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      Try it with your 897 set to DIG mode - not USB or LSB

      That should throw some power out..

      Dave H G0CER

      On 10.04.2013 14:51, 4311danco@... wrote:
      > Hi, When operating any digi mode should the output power show on the
      > ft
      > 897 display?. All the settings are OK and the red tx light is on and
      > the interface is working but none of the pwr/alc/mod settings show
      > anything. Have tried various digital programmes but result is same.
      >
      >
      > Dave de G7DHW
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
    • IZ1TGH Roberto Waha
      Hi Dave! 2013/4/10 4311danco@tiscali.co.uk ... How many cables are there between the radio and your computer? 73 -- +------------=*
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 10, 2013
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        Hi Dave!

        2013/4/10 4311danco@... <4311danco@...>

        > **
        > Hi, When operating any digi mode should the output power show on the ft
        >
        > 897 display?. All the settings are OK and the red tx light is on and
        > the interface is working but none of the pwr/alc/mod settings show
        > anything. Have tried various digital programmes but result is same.
        >
        How many cables are there between the radio and your computer?

        73

        --
        +------------=* IZ1TGH Roberto Waha - IZ1TGH@... *=-------------+
        | El Senyor és la meva força, el Senyor el meu cant. |
        | Ell m'ha estat la salvació. En Ell confío i no tinc por. |
        +---------------------------------------------------------------------+


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Rob, KD7H
        Hello Dave, I run my 897D on psk using a SignaLink USB interface between the transceiver and a computer. In digital mode, I adjust power output (usually to 40
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 11, 2013
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          Hello Dave,

          I run my 897D on psk using a SignaLink USB interface between the transceiver and a computer. In digital mode, I adjust power output (usually to 40 W) in the menu and, also, digital gain. Another important level adjustment is either the "TX gain" level on the SignaLink or other interface, or the soundcard output level in your computer. If the soundcard level is not high enough, no rf will be transmitted or indicated. When I transmit, with levels adjusted correctly, the transceiver's meter indicates power output or swr.

          I believe the digital gain default is set to 50 which is plenty. While
          transmitting in psk, you can see how the output changes as you adjust the digital gain level. Microphone gain has no effect when an interface is connected to the data jack and you are operating in digital mode. If you are using an internal soundcard, the output level may have to be set to the maximum. My SignaLink USB interface TX gain is usually at the 9 or 10 o'clock setting. Once you get rf output, you might want to have a local ham friend help you with fine-tuning your levels so you are not distorting. BTW, measuring bpsk IMD is most accurate when you are idling in transmit.

          I hope that helps.

          73, Rob KD7H


          --- In FT897@yahoogroups.com, "4311danco@..." <4311danco@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi, When operating any digi mode should the output power show on the ft
          > 897 display?. All the settings are OK and the red tx light is on and
          > the interface is working but none of the pwr/alc/mod settings show
          > anything. Have tried various digital programmes but result is same.
          >
          >
          > Dave de G7DHW
          >
        • JP Douglas
          It doesn t matter if you use digi mode, I use the 897 about 90% for digital as I use a Kenwood TS 830 for voice and keep radio on USB or FM depending on what
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 11, 2013
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            It doesn't matter if you use digi mode, I use the 897 about 90% for digital as I use a Kenwood TS 830 for voice and keep radio on USB or FM depending on what bands I use; especially since we do two digi/voice nets a week, one on 2m the other on 6m. You should use min power to get out as you would with voice. You can have power set at 100 watts but make sure you have meter reading ALC, when you show ALC back it up to where you the reading just disapears and you are all set.

            73 de Jose Douglas - KB1TCD






            ________________________________
            From: "4311danco@..." <4311danco@...>
            To: ft897@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 9:51 AM
            Subject: [FT897] Digi mode power



             
            Hi, When operating any digi mode should the output power show on the ft
            897 display?. All the settings are OK and the red tx light is on and
            the interface is working but none of the pwr/alc/mod settings show
            anything. Have tried various digital programmes but result is same.

            Dave de G7DHW



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • wb2pjh
            I also have an 897 with a SignaLink interface. I set the power output at 75 watts and for general use the unit doesn t get too warm. The item you should be
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 13, 2013
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              I also have an 897 with a SignaLink interface. I set the power output at 75 watts and for general use the unit doesn't get too warm. The item you should be looking at is the ALC. If you haven't already, set the meter to show you ALC on transmit. You want to adjust the sound card and the pot on the SignaLink so that the ALC kicks up about a quarter of the way on transmit. Not more.

              If you're not getting any indication that the ALC is kicking but the Signalink is keying the rig, you may have adjust the digital gain on the 897. All the settings (internal and external SignaLink pots, sound card settings) are interrelated.

              Follow all the steps in the SignaLink manual. If the ALC is kicking up too high you will be splattering and your RTTY signal quality will be poor. I find the SignaLink to be handy because I do need to tweek the transmit setting pot between bands.

              If you use MMTTY there is another setting you need to deal with, but since I don't know if that's what you use it's a topic for another day.

              --Dave WB2PJH

              --- In FT897@yahoogroups.com, JP Douglas <josedouglas@...> wrote:
              >
              > It doesn't matter if you use digi mode, I use the 897 about 90% for digital as I use a Kenwood TS 830 for voice and keep radio on USB or FM depending on what bands I use; especially since we do two digi/voice nets a week, one on 2m the other on 6m. You should use min power to get out as you would with voice. You can have power set at 100 watts but make sure you have meter reading ALC, when you show ALC back it up to where you the reading just disapears and you are all set.
              >
              > 73 de Jose Douglas - KB1TCD
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: "4311danco@..." <4311danco@...>
              > To: ft897@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2013 9:51 AM
              > Subject: [FT897] Digi mode power
              >
              >
              >
              >  
              > Hi, When operating any digi mode should the output power show on the ft
              > 897 display?. All the settings are OK and the red tx light is on and
              > the interface is working but none of the pwr/alc/mod settings show
              > anything. Have tried various digital programmes but result is same.
              >
              > Dave de G7DHW
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • JP
              Dave, You ve been given some good advice in this thread and some miserable advice in this thread. Most of the manufacturers (especially Yaesu, Kenwood, and
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 14, 2013
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                Dave,

                You've been given some good advice in this thread and some miserable advice in this thread. Most of the manufacturers (especially Yaesu, Kenwood, and Icom) have explained time and again how to run digital and their recommendations are:

                1. Put the rig in DIG mode (for SSB soundcard) or PKT mode (for FM soundcard). If you don't, various things may not work right when you do digital -- depending on the software revision level in your radio. For example, in many FT-897s, the radio will not transmit if you're using the DATA jack and also using the CAT/Linear jack and have the radio in USB or FM mode. Others have found that the rig won't transmit at all if they're using the DATA jack with USB or FM mode. KB1TCD continues to tell people to use USB or FM mode even though he's been told time and time again that it causes problems for most users.

                2. For SSB soundcard operations, you do not want to run the rig at more than about 1/3rd rated power. Since it's a 100 watt rig, that means that you don't want to run it at more than about 35 watts (yes, technically 33 watts). Various people in this group have communicated with Yaesu about this issue and we have very specific recommendations from Yaesu telling us to not run the rig at more than 1/3rd power. That comes about because the rig is designed for typical SSB operations, which on average run the rig at 1/3rd power even when you have the power set at 100 watts (that's just the way human voice works). Running higher than that will shorten the life of your finals, perhaps drastically.

                3. For FM, you should run at no more than about 50% of rated power. That comes about because the manufacturer designed the radio with an expectation of voice transmissions being no more than a minute or so at a time. Digital transmissions are often many minutes at a time. Again, operating above this will shorten the life of your finals. For 2 meters that's about 25 watts, for 440 that's about 20 watts.

                4. The Big 3 manufacturers (Yaesu, Kenwood, Icom) all recommend that for SSB soundcard you set your rig to a fairly high RF power setting (menu item 75), and then use the input gain to limit your digital signal to the recommended power level. You can use the playback gain in your computer, the TX gain on the Signalink, and the digital input gain on the FT-897 to adjust the input gain to get the 1/3rd power. It's best to try to adjust all three so that you're not at the extreme end of any one control (which can add some distortion). That doesn't work with FM, so for FM soundcard you have to lower your RF power setting.

                5. You want little or no ALC. You do not want 1/4 ALC. ALC on your signal means that your signal is distorting. That means (a) other stations may not be able to copy your signal, and (b) you will be splattering, which interferes with everyone else on the band.

                6. It is considered polite to limit your PSK transmissions to no more than 30 watts because to transmit at higher power causes your signal to drown out all the adjacent signals on the band.

                If you are not getting a power reading on your FT-897 when you transmit digital, there are a couple of possible problems:

                a. You do not have your Signalink jumpers installed properly

                b. You are plugged into the CAT port and not the data port

                c. You did not set the Signalink as your receive and playback device (in the digital software).

                d. You have the computer's playback gain set too low (the playback gain for the Signalink device, not the playback gain for your soundcard).

                e. You have the Signalink's TX gain set too low

                f. You have the FT-897's digital gain set too low

                *****

                We may now sit back and watch the flaming begin as people tell you all about how they do it some other way which does not follow the manufacturer's recommended way of operating the rig in digital and how it's worked for them so far. Which it probably has, even though they are shortening the life of their finals and/or splattering all over the bands.

                73s
                Jon, WB2RYV

                p.s. For those running Elecraft radios, the manufacturer's recommendation is to set the output power control at the desired transmit power - but that's because Elecraft does things differently.
              • Joel
                One thing on power level and digital ( just my 2 cents ) - the wider the bandwidth of the mode ( or other factors ) you are running , the lower the duty cycle
                Message 7 of 11 , Apr 14, 2013
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                  One thing on power level and digital ( just my 2 cents ) - the wider the
                  bandwidth of the mode ( or other
                  factors ) you are running , the lower the duty cycle and the more you
                  are like a SSB duty cycle. The common modes like PSK31, RTTY,
                  JT65 are indeed rough modes on the rig as was stated - so go easy on the
                  power. If you feel you need more
                  power than 30 - 35 W to establish and maintain contact then use an
                  amplifier and adjust your output accordingly - it will make it that much
                  easier on your rig. Anyone who is regularly on the PSK slots these
                  days knows that long gone are the days of everyone running 20 - 25 watts
                  - especially when there is DX involved - I am not going to make
                  commentary on the right or wrong of it - just an observation of where we
                  have moved recently and what people are really doing. You hear some guys
                  really blistering the band on JT65 these days as well - stuff you didnt
                  see a short time ago - with the gaining popularity of the modes people
                  are bringing their operating styles from the other modes to digital.

                  There are digital modes with a much easier impact on the rig such as
                  Feld Hell you will see FH
                  ops regularly running 70 - 80 watts and even using amplifiers with no
                  problems. Wide Olivia
                  is also a bit lighter impact on the rig output. I don't have
                  scientific numbers but just be aware that ' Digital'
                  signals may not all not equal in their impact on the finals / duty cycle
                  because they are all so different.




                  On 4/14/2013 5:49 AM, JP wrote:
                  >
                  > Dave,
                  >
                  > You've been given some good advice in this thread and some miserable
                  > advice in this thread. Most of the manufacturers (especially Yaesu,
                  > Kenwood, and Icom) have explained time and again how to run digital
                  > and their recommendations are:
                  >
                  > 1. Put the rig in DIG mode (for SSB soundcard) or PKT mode (for FM
                  > soundcard). If you don't, various things may not work right when you
                  > do digital -- depending on the software revision level in your radio.
                  > For example, in many FT-897s, the radio will not transmit if you're
                  > using the DATA jack and also using the CAT/Linear jack and have the
                  > radio in USB or FM mode. Others have found that the rig won't transmit
                  > at all if they're using the DATA jack with USB or FM mode. KB1TCD
                  > continues to tell people to use USB or FM mode even though he's been
                  > told time and time again that it causes problems for most users.
                  >
                  > 2. For SSB soundcard operations, you do not want to run the rig at
                  > more than about 1/3rd rated power. Since it's a 100 watt rig, that
                  > means that you don't want to run it at more than about 35 watts (yes,
                  > technically 33 watts). Various people in this group have communicated
                  > with Yaesu about this issue and we have very specific recommendations
                  > from Yaesu telling us to not run the rig at more than 1/3rd power.
                  > That comes about because the rig is designed for typical SSB
                  > operations, which on average run the rig at 1/3rd power even when you
                  > have the power set at 100 watts (that's just the way human voice
                  > works). Running higher than that will shorten the life of your finals,
                  > perhaps drastically.
                  >
                  > 3. For FM, you should run at no more than about 50% of rated power.
                  > That comes about because the manufacturer designed the radio with an
                  > expectation of voice transmissions being no more than a minute or so
                  > at a time. Digital transmissions are often many minutes at a time.
                  > Again, operating above this will shorten the life of your finals. For
                  > 2 meters that's about 25 watts, for 440 that's about 20 watts.
                  >
                  > 4. The Big 3 manufacturers (Yaesu, Kenwood, Icom) all recommend that
                  > for SSB soundcard you set your rig to a fairly high RF power setting
                  > (menu item 75), and then use the input gain to limit your digital
                  > signal to the recommended power level. You can use the playback gain
                  > in your computer, the TX gain on the Signalink, and the digital input
                  > gain on the FT-897 to adjust the input gain to get the 1/3rd power.
                  > It's best to try to adjust all three so that you're not at the extreme
                  > end of any one control (which can add some distortion). That doesn't
                  > work with FM, so for FM soundcard you have to lower your RF power setting.
                  >
                  > 5. You want little or no ALC. You do not want 1/4 ALC. ALC on your
                  > signal means that your signal is distorting. That means (a) other
                  > stations may not be able to copy your signal, and (b) you will be
                  > splattering, which interferes with everyone else on the band.
                  >
                  > 6. It is considered polite to limit your PSK transmissions to no more
                  > than 30 watts because to transmit at higher power causes your signal
                  > to drown out all the adjacent signals on the band.
                  >
                  > If you are not getting a power reading on your FT-897 when you
                  > transmit digital, there are a couple of possible problems:
                  >
                  > a. You do not have your Signalink jumpers installed properly
                  >
                  > b. You are plugged into the CAT port and not the data port
                  >
                  > c. You did not set the Signalink as your receive and playback device
                  > (in the digital software).
                  >
                  > d. You have the computer's playback gain set too low (the playback
                  > gain for the Signalink device, not the playback gain for your soundcard).
                  >
                  > e. You have the Signalink's TX gain set too low
                  >
                  > f. You have the FT-897's digital gain set too low
                  >
                  > *****
                  >
                  > We may now sit back and watch the flaming begin as people tell you all
                  > about how they do it some other way which does not follow the
                  > manufacturer's recommended way of operating the rig in digital and how
                  > it's worked for them so far. Which it probably has, even though they
                  > are shortening the life of their finals and/or splattering all over
                  > the bands.
                  >
                  > 73s
                  > Jon, WB2RYV
                  >
                  > p.s. For those running Elecraft radios, the manufacturer's
                  > recommendation is to set the output power control at the desired
                  > transmit power - but that's because Elecraft does things differently.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > No virus found in this message.
                  > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com>
                  > Version: 2012.0.2240 / Virus Database: 2641/5744 - Release Date: 04/14/13
                  >

                  --
                  KQØJ



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • ka5s
                  This is something we all need to keep in mind. At ICAS vs. CCS, AB4OJ discusses the difference between Continuous
                  Message 8 of 11 , Apr 15, 2013
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                    This is something we all need to keep in mind.

                    At ICAS vs. CCS, <http://www.ab4oj.com/quadra/icas.html> AB4OJ
                    discusses the difference between Continuous Commercial Service and
                    Intermitant Commercial and Amateut service. Snippets:
                    ...no operating or 'on' period exceeds 5 minutes, and every 'on' period
                    is followed by an 'off' or standby period of at least the same or longer
                    duration. ...
                    ...ICAS in a solid-state environment implies de-rating to keep the
                    device junction and case temperatures within their maximum ratings.

                    PEP output is a ratings manufacturers don't say much about, because they
                    can boast of higher numbers if they keep quiet.

                    Certain radios have enough cooling when the internal fan is running to
                    run Olivia and RTTY at 100 watts, and I have been able to use them
                    without excessive heat. Ten Tec recommends an additional fan for some of
                    theirs and I have found that a help with an FT- 450.

                    However, toroids in sold state PA's and filters can be overheated as
                    well. I monitor output waveforms (and sometimes spurious emissions) in
                    real-time and could spot changes, but that's another reason to lower the
                    power for high duty-cycle modes. A small Balun rated at 200 watts failed
                    during one Field Day here at 100 watts when the core overheated
                    (melting nearby plastic) and it became unusable over much of its
                    intended range. There was more to that than power, but they intended
                    that rating to be SSB PEP, assuming a 2:1 PEP to average power rating
                    and a maximum 50 percent transmit time. It should have been kept to 50
                    watts. and I think the owner rebuilt it with a larger core.

                    I use an oscilloscope and directional coupler to set output power,
                    assuring that built-in wattmeters are not depended on for accuracy;
                    manufacturer calibration settings in ROM are often wrong, and often get
                    changed by transients, ESD or perhaps RF. The programmed ALC settings
                    especially can be wrong when they come from the manufacture -- or what
                    they do in a particular rig may not be properly explained. If you can
                    measure transmitter IMD, you can find out which.

                    ALL of that can be avoided by setting power much lower than you believe
                    (or find) necessary, remembering that you won't see PEP on most built-in
                    meters, but some number lower, how much depending on the time constant
                    of its RF detectors. I left a 'scope at a local club with a dummy load
                    and T fitting, so operators could be shown the relationship between
                    mike gain, wattmeter readings, and PEP.

                    If you can't get through, you can't get through -- and need either to
                    QSY, a better antenna -- or both.

                    Cortland
                    KA5S


                    --- In FT897@yahoogroups.com, "wb2pjh" <wb2pjh@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I also have an 897 with a SignaLink interface. I set the power output
                    at 75 watts and for general use the unit doesn't get too warm. The item
                    you should be looking at is the ALC. If you haven't already, set the
                    meter to show you ALC on transmit. You want to adjust the sound card
                    and the pot on the SignaLink so that the ALC kicks up about a quarter of
                    the way on transmit. Not more.
                    >
                    > If you're not getting any indication that the ALC is kicking but the
                    Signalink is keying the rig, you may have adjust the digital gain on the
                    897. All the settings (internal and external SignaLink pots, sound card
                    settings) are interrelated.
                    >
                    > Follow all the steps in the SignaLink manual. If the ALC is kicking
                    up too high you will be splattering and your RTTY signal quality will be
                    poor. I find the SignaLink to be handy because I do need to tweek the
                    transmit setting pot between bands.
                    >
                    > If you use MMTTY there is another setting you need to deal with, but
                    since I don't know if that's what you use it's a topic for another day.
                    >
                    > --Dave WB2PJH



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • nealedave
                    Jon Many thanks for a really useful and comprehensive reply. Sure agree about the conflicting advice in the thread! I think the problem lies in the
                    Message 9 of 11 , Apr 21, 2013
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                      Jon

                      Many thanks for a really useful and comprehensive reply. Sure agree about the conflicting advice in the thread! I think the problem lies in the p.c.soundcard and will go down the SignalLink route and isolate the pc soundcard.
                      Many thanks
                      Dave de G7DHW

                      --- In FT897@yahoogroups.com, "JP" <jon.perelstein@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dave,
                      >
                      > You've been given some good advice in this thread and some miserable advice in this thread. Most of the manufacturers (especially Yaesu, Kenwood, and Icom) have explained time and again how to run digital and their recommendations are:
                      >
                      > 1. Put the rig in DIG mode (for SSB soundcard) or PKT mode (for FM soundcard). If you don't, various things may not work right when you do digital -- depending on the software revision level in your radio. For example, in many FT-897s, the radio will not transmit if you're using the DATA jack and also using the CAT/Linear jack and have the radio in USB or FM mode. Others have found that the rig won't transmit at all if they're using the DATA jack with USB or FM mode. KB1TCD continues to tell people to use USB or FM mode even though he's been told time and time again that it causes problems for most users.
                      >
                      > 2. For SSB soundcard operations, you do not want to run the rig at more than about 1/3rd rated power. Since it's a 100 watt rig, that means that you don't want to run it at more than about 35 watts (yes, technically 33 watts). Various people in this group have communicated with Yaesu about this issue and we have very specific recommendations from Yaesu telling us to not run the rig at more than 1/3rd power. That comes about because the rig is designed for typical SSB operations, which on average run the rig at 1/3rd power even when you have the power set at 100 watts (that's just the way human voice works). Running higher than that will shorten the life of your finals, perhaps drastically.
                      >
                      > 3. For FM, you should run at no more than about 50% of rated power. That comes about because the manufacturer designed the radio with an expectation of voice transmissions being no more than a minute or so at a time. Digital transmissions are often many minutes at a time. Again, operating above this will shorten the life of your finals. For 2 meters that's about 25 watts, for 440 that's about 20 watts.
                      >
                      > 4. The Big 3 manufacturers (Yaesu, Kenwood, Icom) all recommend that for SSB soundcard you set your rig to a fairly high RF power setting (menu item 75), and then use the input gain to limit your digital signal to the recommended power level. You can use the playback gain in your computer, the TX gain on the Signalink, and the digital input gain on the FT-897 to adjust the input gain to get the 1/3rd power. It's best to try to adjust all three so that you're not at the extreme end of any one control (which can add some distortion). That doesn't work with FM, so for FM soundcard you have to lower your RF power setting.
                      >
                      > 5. You want little or no ALC. You do not want 1/4 ALC. ALC on your signal means that your signal is distorting. That means (a) other stations may not be able to copy your signal, and (b) you will be splattering, which interferes with everyone else on the band.
                      >
                      > 6. It is considered polite to limit your PSK transmissions to no more than 30 watts because to transmit at higher power causes your signal to drown out all the adjacent signals on the band.
                      >
                      > If you are not getting a power reading on your FT-897 when you transmit digital, there are a couple of possible problems:
                      >
                      > a. You do not have your Signalink jumpers installed properly
                      >
                      > b. You are plugged into the CAT port and not the data port
                      >
                      > c. You did not set the Signalink as your receive and playback device (in the digital software).
                      >
                      > d. You have the computer's playback gain set too low (the playback gain for the Signalink device, not the playback gain for your soundcard).
                      >
                      > e. You have the Signalink's TX gain set too low
                      >
                      > f. You have the FT-897's digital gain set too low
                      >
                      > *****
                      >
                      > We may now sit back and watch the flaming begin as people tell you all about how they do it some other way which does not follow the manufacturer's recommended way of operating the rig in digital and how it's worked for them so far. Which it probably has, even though they are shortening the life of their finals and/or splattering all over the bands.
                      >
                      > 73s
                      > Jon, WB2RYV
                      >
                      > p.s. For those running Elecraft radios, the manufacturer's recommendation is to set the output power control at the desired transmit power - but that's because Elecraft does things differently.
                      >
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