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Re: [FT897] Output is not 100 Watts in SSB

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  • kd4e
    What type of meter are you using, please? If your meter is not designed for SSB then you are likely missing the PEP output. ... -- Thanks! & 73, doc, KD4E
    Message 1 of 27 , Apr 2, 2007
      What type of meter are you using, please?

      If your meter is not designed for SSB then you
      are likely missing the PEP output.

      > I have a 897D,I purchased last year.The rig is working
      > great.
      > But I have noticed that it is not giving full 100
      > Watts SSB out put on 7M,20M,15M,when I used external
      > output measuring device.
      > But it is giving 100 Watts in CW mode in all the
      > bands.
      > I have also noticed that it is giving full 100 watts
      > output SSB in 10 M band?
      > How can I get full 100 watts output in ssb mode in all
      > the ham Bands?
      > Hope to hear you soon.
      > Best 73s
      > Deep,VU2CSB.


      --

      Thanks! & 73, doc, KD4E
      Projects: ham-macguyver.bibleseven.com
      Personal: bibleseven.com/kd4e.html
    • Dennis
      Forgot to mention I was using the equation as an example in relation to the small amount of power that he thinks he might be missing, since many people look at
      Message 2 of 27 , Apr 2, 2007
        Forgot to mention I was using the equation as an example in relation to
        the small amount of power that he thinks he might be missing, since many
        people look at the "gain" part when talking about power. Therefore, if
        he was missing say, 10 watts, his signal would not change much, if any.

        In order to change your signal on the receive end, an increase in power
        of a minimum of 50w would be needed to show any significant increase in
        signal strength on an s-meter on the receiver.

        I just figured he would be able to figure that out, but I appreciate you
        saying something.



        Dennis - N8BMB

        -----Original Message-----
        From: FT897@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FT897@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
        Geoff Blake
        Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 15:25
        To: FT897@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [FT897] Re: Output is not 100 Watts in SSB

        On Mon, 2 Apr 2007, Dennis wrote:

        > Don't forget, too, that the 20, 10 or 5 watts that your are "missing"
        > really is not going to matter squat. For every 1db in gain you want to
        > put out, you need at least 50w of power.
        >
        > 1db = 50w

        Really? 1dB is approximately 10%, not 50W remember dB are
        voltage, current or power ratios.

        Geoff

        --
        Geoff Blake G8GNZ located near Chelmsford, Essex, U.K.
        Please reply to: geoff(at)palaemon(dot)demon(dot)co(dot)uk
        Using Linux on Intel & Linux or NetBSD on Sun Sparc platforms

        Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Geoff Blake
        ... That is still wrong, the ratio between 50W and 100W is near as dammit 3dB, as is the ratio between 2.5W and 5W and 10kW and 20kW. Never did like coffee :-)
        Message 3 of 27 , Apr 2, 2007
          On Mon, 2 Apr 2007, Dennis wrote:

          > Your right, I should have stated "approximately 3db", not one. Looks
          > like I need more coffee!

          That is still wrong, the ratio between 50W and 100W is near
          as dammit 3dB, as is the ratio between 2.5W and 5W and 10kW and
          20kW.

          Never did like coffee :-)

          Geoff

          --
          Geoff Blake G8GNZ located near Chelmsford, Essex, U.K.
          Please reply to: geoff(at)palaemon(dot)demon(dot)co(dot)uk
          Using Linux on Intel & Linux or NetBSD on Sun Sparc platforms

          Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
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        • Rmackey
          Maybe he is not reading the output in ssb with the right meter? It is different than cw measurement. Reggie Amateur Radio Station K6XR In Southwest
          Message 4 of 27 , Apr 2, 2007
            Maybe he is not reading the output in ssb with the right meter? It is different than cw measurement.

            Reggie Amateur Radio Station K6XR
            In Southwest Bakersfield, CA.

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Geoff Blake
            To: FT897@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, April 02, 2007 12:25 PM
            Subject: RE: [FT897] Re: Output is not 100 Watts in SSB


            On Mon, 2 Apr 2007, Dennis wrote:

            > Don't forget, too, that the 20, 10 or 5 watts that your are "missing"
            > really is not going to matter squat. For every 1db in gain you want to
            > put out, you need at least 50w of power.
            >
            > 1db = 50w

            Really? 1dB is approximately 10%, not 50W remember dB are
            voltage, current or power ratios.

            Geoff

            --
            Geoff Blake G8GNZ located near Chelmsford, Essex, U.K.
            Please reply to: geoff(at)palaemon(dot)demon(dot)co(dot)uk
            Using Linux on Intel & Linux or NetBSD on Sun Sparc platforms

            Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
            See <http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html>
            ----------------------------------------------------------

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            and is intended solely for the addressee(s). If you are not the
            intended recipient please notify <postmaster(at)palaemon.co.uk>
            and the sender by return and permanently delete the message.

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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Geoff Blake
            ... IMO HF S points should be 3dB whereas above 30MHz 6dB is correct, this allows the S meter to reach down into the noise floor of the RX. I have not carried
            Message 5 of 27 , Apr 2, 2007
              On Mon, 2 Apr 2007, Dennis wrote:

              > Forgot to mention I was using the equation as an example in relation to
              > the small amount of power that he thinks he might be missing, since many
              > people look at the "gain" part when talking about power. Therefore, if
              > he was missing say, 10 watts, his signal would not change much, if any.
              >
              > In order to change your signal on the receive end, an increase in power
              > of a minimum of 50w would be needed to show any significant increase in
              > signal strength on an s-meter on the receiver.
              >
              > I just figured he would be able to figure that out, but I appreciate you
              > saying something.

              IMO HF S points should be 3dB whereas above 30MHz 6dB is correct,
              this allows the S meter to reach down into the noise floor of the
              RX. I have not carried out any measurements on my 897 as yet but
              first opinions seem favourable.

              IME many folk do not understand what a decibel is and do not
              understand that to increase a signal by one S point on HF (given
              the above) you will have double the TX power be it from 1W to 2W
              or 1kW to 2kW.

              Me, I stick to VHF and above and measure signals in dB above the
              noise.

              Geoff
              --
              Geoff Blake G8GNZ located near Chelmsford, Essex, U.K.
              Please reply to: geoff(at)palaemon(dot)demon(dot)co(dot)uk
              Using Linux on Intel & Linux or NetBSD on Sun Sparc platforms

              Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
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              ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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            • kd4e
              I have two solid state amps with four 2SC2879 devices in each. They claim 500-600W PEP SSB. Let s say 500W each PEP for the sake of the argument. If I combine
              Message 6 of 27 , Apr 2, 2007
                I have two solid state amps with four 2SC2879 devices
                in each. They claim 500-600W PEP SSB.

                Let's say 500W each PEP for the sake of the argument.

                If I combine the pair for 1KW on 160-10M will the
                single S-unit I gain from combining them matter
                at the receiving end?

                If so, where the most; 160? 40? 20? 10?

                The context will initially be into inefficient
                mobile antennas, and into less inefficient portable
                antennas when parked and operating from the travel
                trailer.


                > IME many folk do not understand what a decibel is and do not
                > understand that to increase a signal by one S point on HF (given
                > the above) you will have double the TX power be it from 1W to 2W
                > or 1kW to 2kW.
                >
                > Me, I stick to VHF and above and measure signals in dB above the
                > noise.
                >
                > Geoff


                --

                Thanks! & 73, doc, KD4E
                Projects: ham-macguyver.bibleseven.com
                Personal: bibleseven.com/kd4e.html
              • Geoff Blake
                ... If you use the same aerials etc both with and without the amplifier(s), the gain in S meter reading will be proportional to the difference in output power.
                Message 7 of 27 , Apr 3, 2007
                  On Mon, 2 Apr 2007, kd4e wrote:

                  > I have two solid state amps with four 2SC2879 devices
                  > in each. They claim 500-600W PEP SSB.
                  >
                  > Let's say 500W each PEP for the sake of the argument.
                  >
                  > If I combine the pair for 1KW on 160-10M will the
                  > single S-unit I gain from combining them matter
                  > at the receiving end?
                  >
                  > If so, where the most; 160? 40? 20? 10?
                  >
                  > The context will initially be into inefficient
                  > mobile antennas, and into less inefficient portable
                  > antennas when parked and operating from the travel
                  > trailer.
                  >

                  If you use the same aerials etc both with and without the
                  amplifier(s), the gain in S meter reading will be proportional to
                  the difference in output power. If you are using the 897 barefoot,
                  then you will get ~100W. If you get 1000W from the amp. then you
                  will get 10dB extra signal, just over 3 S points and probably
                  worth having.

                  Which band would work the best? If the amp. is flat in frequency
                  response, then one band will be much the same as the other.

                  Of course, the above is theoretical and depends on many factors
                  including power supply performance, the amplifier itself and the
                  remote receiver S meter peformance.

                  Geoff

                  --
                  Geoff Blake G8GNZ located near Chelmsford, Essex, U.K.
                  Please reply to: geoff(at)palaemon(dot)demon(dot)co(dot)uk
                  Using Linux on Intel & Linux or NetBSD on Sun Sparc platforms

                  Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
                  See <http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html>
                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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                • Dave Oldridge
                  ... More like 2 S units on a generous meter (5db per S unit). A bit less if it s calibrated 6db per. On a quiet band with signals well above the noise, the
                  Message 8 of 27 , Apr 3, 2007
                    On 3 Apr 2007 at 9:09, Geoff Blake wrote:

                    > On Mon, 2 Apr 2007, kd4e wrote:
                    >
                    > > I have two solid state amps with four 2SC2879 devices
                    > > in each. They claim 500-600W PEP SSB.
                    > >
                    > > Let's say 500W each PEP for the sake of the argument.
                    > >
                    > > If I combine the pair for 1KW on 160-10M will the
                    > > single S-unit I gain from combining them matter
                    > > at the receiving end?
                    > >
                    > > If so, where the most; 160? 40? 20? 10?
                    > >
                    > > The context will initially be into inefficient
                    > > mobile antennas, and into less inefficient portable
                    > > antennas when parked and operating from the travel
                    > > trailer.
                    > >
                    >
                    > If you use the same aerials etc both with and without the
                    > amplifier(s), the gain in S meter reading will be proportional
                    > to
                    > the difference in output power. If you are using the 897
                    > barefoot,
                    > then you will get ~100W. If you get 1000W from the amp. then
                    > you
                    > will get 10dB extra signal, just over 3 S points and probably
                    > worth having.

                    More like 2 S units on a generous meter (5db per S unit). A bit
                    less if it's calibrated 6db per.

                    On a quiet band with signals well above the noise, the linear is
                    probably superfluous. On a noisy band (e.g. 80m with a lot of
                    QRN), it may be essential for some communications.


                    --

                    Dave Oldridge
                    ICQ 1800667
                    VA7CZ
                  • kd4e
                    I was unclear in my question. What I meant to say was that some bands (and some circumstances) generally *require* higher power. Here is what I was thinking:
                    Message 9 of 27 , Apr 3, 2007
                      I was unclear in my question. What I meant to say
                      was that some bands (and some circumstances) generally
                      *require* higher power. Here is what I was thinking:

                      6 & 10M are fine on 10 Watts when open but if one
                      wants to force a QSO under weak conditions will require
                      some extra juice.

                      15 & 20M seem to generally be open or closed and
                      100W is rarely needed -- except to reach stations
                      with poor antennas or with local receive QRN/QRM,
                      and during contests.

                      40, 80, & 160 appear to benefit more from an amp then
                      the other bands and from years of monitoring 160 & 80m
                      seem to have a higher percentage of ops reporting the
                      use of amps than the other HF bands.

                      Running inefficient antennas mobile/portable all of
                      these factors would appear to be amplified.

                      WDYT?

                      > Which band would work the best? If the amp. is flat in frequency
                      > response, then one band will be much the same as the other.
                      >
                      > Of course, the above is theoretical and depends on many factors
                      > including power supply performance, the amplifier itself and the
                      > remote receiver S meter peformance.
                      >
                      > Geoff
                      >


                      --

                      Thanks! & 73, doc, KD4E
                      Projects: ham-macguyver.bibleseven.com
                      Personal: bibleseven.com/kd4e.html
                    • Jerry Karlovich, KD5OM
                      ...If you are using the 897 barefoot, then you will get ~100W. If you get 1000W from the amp. then you will get 10dB extra signal, just over 3 S points and
                      Message 10 of 27 , Apr 3, 2007
                        "...If you are using the 897 barefoot, then you will get ~100W. If you
                        get 1000W from the amp. then you will get 10dB extra signal, just over
                        3 S points and probably worth having. ..."

                        Huh.... Disagree with you there Geoff. 10 DB = about a S unit and a
                        half. 1 S unit = 6DB, 2 S units = 12DB (I like to call them Dog
                        Biscuits) and 3 S units = 18DB. Therefore ~100 watts x 3 S units (or 18
                        DB) would = 6,400 watts. (doubles 6 times)

                        While DX trolling I would love to flip a switch and get 3 S units and
                        that would definitely be worth having!

                        73 es gud DX! de Jerry KD5OM
                      • Geoff Blake
                        ... As I said earlier Jerry, although there is no fixed definition of a S meter, I believe that the ARRL issued a suggestion that
                        Message 11 of 27 , Apr 3, 2007
                          On Tue, 3 Apr 2007, Jerry Karlovich, KD5OM wrote:

                          > Huh.... Disagree with you there Geoff. 10 DB = about a S unit and a
                          > half. 1 S unit = 6DB, 2 S units = 12DB (I like to call them Dog
                          > Biscuits) and 3 S units = 18DB. Therefore ~100 watts x 3 S units (or 18
                          > DB) would = 6,400 watts. (doubles 6 times)

                          As I said earlier Jerry, although there is no fixed definition of
                          a S meter, I believe that the ARRL issued a suggestion that < 30
                          MHz an S point is 3dB, S9=100uV and > 30MHz 6dB, S9=50uV into 50
                          ohm.

                          This was 'agreed' back around the 70's between all the major
                          players, but some more recent measurements:
                          http://www.seed-solutions.com/gregordy/Amateur%20Radio/Experimentation/SMeterBlues.htm#
                          has shown that manufacturers do not design for 'calibrated S-meters'

                          As I said earlier, as a VHF and up operator I think that dB above
                          (or below) the noise floor is more meaningful.

                          Geoff

                          --
                          Geoff Blake G8GNZ located near Chelmsford, Essex, U.K.
                          Please reply to: geoff(at)palaemon(dot)demon(dot)co(dot)uk
                          Using Linux on Intel & Linux or NetBSD on Sun Sparc platforms

                          Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
                          See <http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html>
                          ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

                          This E-mail and any attachment(s) are strictly confidential
                          and is intended solely for the addressee(s). If you are not the
                          intended recipient please notify <postmaster(at)palaemon.co.uk>
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                        • kd4e
                          I am trying to be sure that I understand it all well enough so that I make the best choices using a limited Ham budget. A theoretical effective factor in
                          Message 12 of 27 , Apr 3, 2007
                            I am trying to be sure that I understand it all well
                            enough so that I make the best choices using a limited
                            Ham budget.

                            A theoretical effective factor in performance is
                            sometimes not so real in practice -- so I am trying
                            to challenge my knowledge-base a bit.

                            I have not operated mobile/portable HF much and certainly
                            not for 3-12 months so I need to get this right! :-)

                            >> the S meter difference between 100 watts and 5 watts. It's like going
                            >> from S9 to just S7. Do the math. 73 es gud DX! de Jerry KD5OM
                            >
                            > Doesn't that presume 100% efficiency in delivering
                            > that power to the antenna and out into the air?
                            >
                            > What happens when one factors-in the many variables
                            > in the non-laboratory context?
                            >
                            > Efficiency of TX feedline.
                            > Efficieny of TX antenna.
                            > Efficiency of listening station feedline.
                            > Efficieny of listening station antenna.
                            > QRN.
                            > QRM.
                            > Quality of listening station equipment.
                            > Variable propagation.

                            > You didn't mention the receiving ham's mental capacity or the capacity
                            > to copy code, understand the language being spoken or managing the
                            > difference in accents, dogs barking, babies crying in the background. CRAP!
                            >
                            > I was just disagreeing with another guys math.
                            >
                            > What's your point?
                            > --
                            > Jerry Karlovich, KD5OM "Old Man"
                            > Plano, Texas


                            --

                            Thanks! & 73, doc, KD4E
                            Projects: ham-macguyver.bibleseven.com
                            Personal: bibleseven.com/kd4e.html
                          • Jerry Karlovich, KD5OM
                            Well Cowboy, I guess we agree to disagree. Arthur Collins of Collins-Rockwell Radio Company did establish an industry standard for S meters, since prior to
                            Message 13 of 27 , Apr 3, 2007
                              Well Cowboy, I guess we agree to disagree.

                              Arthur Collins of Collins-Rockwell Radio Company did establish an
                              industry standard for S meters, since prior to that S meters were
                              just simply relative signal strength measuring devices. Most
                              manufacture's do attempt to design their receivers after Collins'
                              standard, however, we don't live in a perfect world. Now do we?

                              Good o' Arthur's standard is simple, and I'm sure you've heard it
                              before but I'll say it again; 50 micro-volts at the Radio's antenna
                              connector = S9 and each S unit deflection on the meter = 3DB
                              difference.

                              The formula has always been and until water begins running uphill, it
                              will always be: Power difference in DB = 10 LOG (Power A/Power B).
                              And I agree with Arthur that each S unit is 6 of them DBs. Every
                              radio I have ever owned, including my FT-897D, sort of kind of tracks
                              that standard. But none of us are perfect, huh?

                              Just say you agree with Mr. Collins or say he was nutz. Somebody had
                              to standardize this stuff and I like his way of doing things. He made
                              darn good radios.

                              And if you disagree with this, don't get your panties all in a knot.
                              Just say you agree that we disagree. Okie Dokie Smokie? Still Pals?

                              Gee Whiz!

                              73 es gud DX de Jerry KD5OM
                            • WØQFC
                              Gee wiz guys ~ S units, SMECH units. What difference does it make? Duh, I don t have a S meter on my RBS-3 receiver and guess what? I can still hear the
                              Message 14 of 27 , Apr 3, 2007
                                Gee wiz guys ~ "S" units, "SMECH" units.

                                What difference does it make?

                                Duh, I don't have a S meter on my RBS-3 receiver and guess what? I can still
                                hear the stations and never know how many "S' units they are!

                                And BTW, what has all this got to do with a FT-897????

                                Gene, WØQFC (OK on QRZ)
                                Spring Hill, Florida 34606
                                WEB SITE:
                                http://www.w0qfc.com
                              • thb201
                                When in the SSB mode and you speak into the mic you won t see your power meter read 100W. Even most peak power meters still won t show 100W on the peaks.
                                Message 15 of 27 , Apr 3, 2007
                                  When in the SSB mode and you speak into the mic you won't see your
                                  power meter read 100W. Even most peak power meters still won't show
                                  100W on the peaks. That's because the sounds you make with your voice
                                  when speaking aren't enough to drive your rig to full power. You can
                                  try saying the usual "helloooooooooooo" or "ohhhhhhhhhhhhh" which
                                  might get you close. What I find works it to whistle into the mic.
                                  Try to get a nice single tone note without too much air sound. I find
                                  it works even better if I whistle while inhaling instead of exhaling.
                                  Makes a cleaner tone. Even better is to play into the mic the sound
                                  from a pure sinewave signal generator, or a musical instrument tuner
                                  which puts out a pure note (usually an A4 at 440 Hz.). When I speak
                                  into the mic and read the power in the "peak" mode on my Diamond or
                                  Palstar power meter it does not show anywhere near 100W. If I then
                                  whistle into the mic it will then show darned near close to 100W.

                                  73
                                  John
                                  VE3CXB
                                • Jerry Karlovich, KD5OM
                                  Sorry I ranted. You are right. All my QRP rigs receivers ain t got S meters. The last time I looked at my S meter was to check the F-B and Sides on my
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Apr 3, 2007
                                    Sorry I ranted. You are right. All my QRP rigs' receivers ain't got S
                                    meters. The last time I looked at my S meter was to check the F-B and
                                    Sides on my antenner. You either hear'm or ya don't.

                                    73s es see ya in da pile-ups,

                                    Jerry KD5oM

                                    --- In FT897@yahoogroups.com, WØQFC <erastber@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Gee wiz guys ~ "S" units, "SMECH" units.
                                    >
                                    > What difference does it make?
                                    >
                                    > Duh, I don't have a S meter on my RBS-3 receiver and guess what? I
                                    can still
                                    > hear the stations and never know how many "S' units they are!
                                    >
                                    > And BTW, what has all this got to do with a FT-897????
                                    >
                                    > Gene, WØQFC (OK on QRZ)
                                    > Spring Hill, Florida 34606
                                    > WEB SITE:
                                    > http://www.w0qfc.com
                                    >
                                  • John Champa
                                    Jerry, We still make ...darn good radios. ;o) John - K8OCL Rockwell Collins Dallas, TX ... From: Jerry Karlovich, KD5OM Reply-To:
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Apr 3, 2007
                                      Jerry,

                                      We still make "...darn good radios." ;o)

                                      John - K8OCL
                                      Rockwell Collins
                                      Dallas, TX



                                      ----Original Message Follows----
                                      From: "Jerry Karlovich, KD5OM" <kd5oldman@...>
                                      Reply-To: FT897@yahoogroups.com
                                      To: FT897@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: [FT897] Re: Output is not 100 Watts in SSB
                                      Date: Tue, 03 Apr 2007 18:14:41 -0000

                                      Well Cowboy, I guess we agree to disagree.

                                      Arthur Collins of Collins-Rockwell Radio Company did establish an
                                      industry standard for S meters, since prior to that S meters were
                                      just simply relative signal strength measuring devices. Most
                                      manufacture's do attempt to design their receivers after Collins'
                                      standard, however, we don't live in a perfect world. Now do we?

                                      Good o' Arthur's standard is simple, and I'm sure you've heard it
                                      before but I'll say it again; 50 micro-volts at the Radio's antenna
                                      connector = S9 and each S unit deflection on the meter = 3DB
                                      difference.

                                      The formula has always been and until water begins running uphill, it
                                      will always be: Power difference in DB = 10 LOG (Power A/Power B).
                                      And I agree with Arthur that each S unit is 6 of them DBs. Every
                                      radio I have ever owned, including my FT-897D, sort of kind of tracks
                                      that standard. But none of us are perfect, huh?

                                      Just say you agree with Mr. Collins or say he was nutz. Somebody had
                                      to standardize this stuff and I like his way of doing things. He made
                                      darn good radios.

                                      And if you disagree with this, don't get your panties all in a knot.
                                      Just say you agree that we disagree. Okie Dokie Smokie? Still Pals?

                                      Gee Whiz!

                                      73 es gud DX de Jerry KD5OM
                                    • Geoff Blake
                                      ... No, I am not disagreeing with you Jerry - nor anybody else - but I would raise two points: 1 given what you say, S0 = 0.1uV which is a reasonable noise
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Apr 3, 2007
                                        On Tue, 3 Apr 2007, Jerry Karlovich, KD5OM wrote:

                                        > Well Cowboy, I guess we agree to disagree.
                                        >
                                        > Arthur Collins of Collins-Rockwell Radio Company did establish an
                                        > industry standard for S meters, since prior to that S meters were
                                        > just simply relative signal strength measuring devices. Most
                                        > manufacture's do attempt to design their receivers after Collins'
                                        > standard, however, we don't live in a perfect world. Now do we?
                                        >
                                        > Good o' Arthur's standard is simple, and I'm sure you've heard it
                                        > before but I'll say it again; 50 micro-volts at the Radio's antenna
                                        > connector = S9 and each S unit deflection on the meter = 3DB
                                        > difference.
                                        >
                                        > The formula has always been and until water begins running uphill, it
                                        > will always be: Power difference in DB = 10 LOG (Power A/Power B).
                                        > And I agree with Arthur that each S unit is 6 of them DBs. Every
                                        > radio I have ever owned, including my FT-897D, sort of kind of tracks
                                        > that standard. But none of us are perfect, huh?
                                        >
                                        > Just say you agree with Mr. Collins or say he was nutz. Somebody had
                                        > to standardize this stuff and I like his way of doing things. He made
                                        > darn good radios.
                                        >
                                        > And if you disagree with this, don't get your panties all in a knot.
                                        > Just say you agree that we disagree. Okie Dokie Smokie? Still Pals?
                                        >
                                        > Gee Whiz!
                                        >
                                        > 73 es gud DX de Jerry KD5OM
                                        >
                                        No, I am not disagreeing with you Jerry - nor anybody else - but I
                                        would raise two points:

                                        1 given what you say, S0 = 0.1uV which is a reasonable noise
                                        floor for a SSB bandwidth UHF RX but how many HF RX's can
                                        achieve this - HF receivers !should! be designed for
                                        dynamic range rather than low noise.

                                        2 there is a wide rnge of variation of S meter responses -
                                        see the table.

                                        Geoff

                                        --
                                        Geoff Blake G8GNZ located near Chelmsford, Essex, U.K.
                                        Please reply to: geoff(at)palaemon(dot)demon(dot)co(dot)uk
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                                        Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
                                        See <http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html>
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