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RE: [FS32NGModelrail] Re: Caso coach (and possible baggage) for the U.S. From: Woodie Greene

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  • SDM
    Hello Nick Ogden, Thanks for your response, I am most interested by your remark concerning Roy and his bravado. I would guess that you have not previously had
    Message 1 of 5 , Dec 10, 2008
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      Hello Nick Ogden,

      Thanks for your response, I am most interested by your remark concerning Roy and his bravado.

      I would guess that you have not previously had knowledge of my activities otherwise, you would be aware that in the past 24 years since I started trading, I have indeed produced many items and created interest where there had previously been none or very little.

      Probably the best example of this is my range of Manning Wardle kits which feature finely cast upper-works and a precision machined chassis with 3-point suspension and a well engineered gearbox, all manufactured by myself and easy enough for the most inexperienced modeller to assemble,(in fact one was assembled at an exhibition by an eight year old!) and I think most people will agree that when I first decided to invest in the development of this product, there was very little interest in small industrial or light railways ( 20-odd years ago everybody still wanted the glamour of main line and named locos. or, a GW branch line!) now, it is not at all unusual to see such railways regularly at exhibitions and, I am pleased to have contributed to this.

      You will have guessed by now that I am proud of my products and, the fact that I am still in business producing models to give pleasure to others.

      I am also proud of the fact that I have done this without being subsidised by any other activity, job, other income or use of another’s tools or facilities.

      IF, I do decide to produce a 1:32 loco kit, I am sorry, I shall have to disappoint you, it will be the Barclay Class E which was also my first (speculative) 7mm scale product.

      I have my drawings and all the information so I only have to make the patterns in this larger scale and source a suitable proprietary chassis, it also has the advantage that the prototype was a direct crib from the O & K so it would be a simple job for a modeller to convert with alternative detailing.

      Of course, it also depends on finding time in between 7mm scale projects to be able to do it – ‘nuff said!

      David

      www,sanddmodels.co.uk

       

       

      -----Original Message-----
      From: FS32NGModelrail@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FS32NGModelrail@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Angela
      Sent:
      10 December 2008 18:34
      To: FS32NGModelrail@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [FS32NGModelrail] Re: Caso coach (and possible baggage) for the
      U.S. From: Woodie Greene

       

       David ,

       

         What we appear to have here is a " Catch 22" situation . Manufacturers are wary about producing kits in a scale where there don't appear to be very many modellers practicing . But why aren't there very many modellers practicing in these scales ? Because there aren't any kits to buy to get them started . Not everyone is a dabhand at scratchbuilding locos , which to my mind is the main stumbling block from getting started . I for one am very taken by the idea of modelling in 1/32nd or 1/35th but am reluctant to get started because there aren't any loco kits that take my fancy . Slater's proposed Ruston is the only one that might get me started, but even that would not be my first choice .

         I guess the best example of a manufacturer being brave enough to single handedly start a new line of products where there had previously been none is Roy Link and On14.

        So for the time being I shall stick to 1/24th and 1/48th scales.

        If you do take the idea of producing a 1/32nd loco , my vote would be for a small diesel loco , that could have seen service in any number of countries . Thereby increasing your potential market to as many people as possible .

       

        Nick Ogden

       

       

      ----- Original Message -----

      From: SDM

      Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2008 5:35 PM

      Subject: RE: [FS32NGModelrail] Re: Caso coach (and possible baggage) for the U.S. From: Woodie Greene

       

      The correspondence generated by Daniel’s attempts to launch his pretty little kit have been of great interest to me.

      I have been impressed by the support and offers of help and encouragement that this project has received.

      As a full time manufacturer and one man business with a greedy bank to support, I have been unable to enjoy the luxury of taking firm orders before making the investment in tools, materials and premises then, taking the time and going to the expense of making patterns, moulds, casting, writing instructions where necessary and packing the finished items ready to send them (when I have worked out the safest most cost efficient way to do it) round the world for the pleasure of others.

      I had been thinking of producing a narrow gauge loco. kit but, if it is true that there are only around 50 1:32 NG modellers world wide and, bearing in mind that I would also be competing with some part-time manufacturers who do not need to make a profit as they have full time jobs to support themselves, I have decided, at least for the time being, to continue to only manufacture those items in 1:32 scale which I judge to have universal appeal.

      David Sutton, wwwsanddmodels. co.uk

       

      -----Original Message-----
      From: FS32NGModelrail@ yahoogroups. com [mailto:FS32NGModel rail@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of Charles Hansen
      Sent: 10 December 2008 14:29
      To: FS32NGModelrail@ yahoogroups. com
      Subject: [FS32NGModelrail] Re: Caso coach (and possible baggage) for the U.S. From: Woodie Greene

       

      I have replied to Daniel offline, but feel I need to respond to Woodie's totally unjustified and unsupported comments on the list.

       

      To begin with, my message made it clear that I knew there was no market for 500 kits (Banta's break point for a lower price), but Daniel mis-read it and Woodie is blindly echoing him without carefully reading my text for himself.

       

      Secondly, I don't know what you mean by "modify" ?  Are you speaking of using a different material or the proposed baggage car?  As I mentioned, Daniel sent me the file with permission to produce kits for modelers in the U.S.  I was asking if folks would be interested in a baggage car version, and given the spirit in which Daniel contributed the file I didn't think there was a problem with this.

       

      Lastly, just what is this "large prospective customer base" you mention?  As you said yourself elsewhere, there are "perhaps 50 1:32 narrow gauge modelers worldwide".

       

      I only got involved with this with the thought of bringing the coach "kit" to US modelers without the need to pay high shipping charges from Europe.  I certainly had no thoughts of personal gain, which is likely impossible anyway due to the size of the potential market, and am rapidly coming to regret this effort.

       

      Charles

       

       

      Woodie wrote:  > For someone else to use your design and "modify" it to suit a large prospective customer base borders on being immoral. Remember what me and others have said about kit manufacturing, helping friends is one thing...sinking money and time into mass merchandising is altogether different.



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    • daniel caso
      David: My excuses for answering your message with so much delay. It has been a pretty busy time for me I regret if my initiative has discouraged you from
      Message 2 of 5 , Dec 29, 2008
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        David:
        My excuses for answering your message with so
        much delay. It has been a pretty busy time for me

        I regret if my initiative has discouraged you
        from producing a n.g. loco kit. It wasn't my intention
        at all and i fully understand your point. But, please,
        read this carefully because it may help to clear some
        misunderstanding.

        First than all, I don't believe that there are
        worlwide just 50 modellers working in 1/32. I am sure
        there are at least a couple of hundreds. Just to
        mention something: Marklin has been producing for
        many years expensive 1/32 scale standard gauge models
        and so also many other German companies. That is scale
        "1" = 1/32. Of course there is quite a difference
        between our modelling and the German Marklinist's
        modelling, but the chance is there and "seducing" "1"
        scalers to add some n.g. to their layouts is always an
        opportunity, provide it is about European prototypes.
        Of course one may not expect our German fellows to
        purchase nice American or British prototypes; but I am
        sure that every O&K, Krauss, Hohenzollern, Jung, etc
        loco kits would be welcome in Germany but also here,
        among European and "3rd world" (...) modellers. There
        is no place in the world where a good designed and
        produced O&K -just to mention one- loco would be
        misplaced, including America. Even some kits to fit
        the well known -and excelent working- Magic Train
        mechanism would be, for sure, welcome.

        Second: it was not my approach to produce too
        complicated things as a locomotive kit, nor to
        "compete" with any commercial production. Far from
        that, my purpose is to produce precisely some items
        that no company is bringing to the market due to the
        little demand and high production costs.

        Probably I have not paid enough attention to the
        effect that my initiative could have for small
        producers as you but in the spirit of my initiative
        the central issue is cooperation, not competition. So
        instead of abandoning your project I suggest you to
        start a poll here to get an idea about what is wanted
        and how much interest it could bring up. But also: I
        would be delighted at cooperating with you providing
        information and eventually some work that could help
        you to bring your n.g. loco to the market.

        Third: there are some items -as locos- that need a
        huge amount of work and some serious investment which
        makes dubious a commercial success due to the reduced
        market; but other items as -just to mention a few-
        trucks, disconnects, spare parts for wagon and loco
        projects, plastic "metal" sleepers for portable track,
        etc, offers another perspective. (most modellers would
        buy several disconnects for one loco and for sure more
        than a couple of such sleepers).

        Once more: the central idea is NOT to spoil the
        market for any small producers, but , instead,
        creating a good base of cooperation among producers
        and modellers.
        Just to say something: if you are planning a loco
        kit it could work to combine your effort with us so we
        can bring into production some fitting rolling stock
        or other things at the same time. Such an initiative,
        in place of diminishing your possibilities would
        support your work and please many of us.
        Think about it.

        I really would like to clear the impression that
        your work or your respectable commercial interests are
        being undermined. That is not and won't be the
        intention at all. I even would like to be sure I am
        not damaging any initiative as yours.

        Please, consider this and if you want you can
        always e-mail me -through the group but also
        privately- for questions, suggestions or even critics
        and for sure claims. I am sure that cooperating can't
        grow if we don't respect each other's interests. So
        I'll certainly take yours seriously.

        I wish you a very good 2009.


        Daniel






        --- SDM <enquiries@...> wrote:

        > The correspondence generated by Daniel's attempts to
        > launch his pretty
        > little kit have been of great interest to me.
        >
        > I have been impressed by the support and offers of
        > help and encouragement
        > that this project has received.
        >
        > As a full time manufacturer and one man business
        > with a greedy bank to
        > support, I have been unable to enjoy the luxury of
        > taking firm orders before
        > making the investment in tools, materials and
        > premises then, taking the time
        > and going to the expense of making patterns, moulds,
        > casting, writing
        > instructions where necessary and packing the
        > finished items ready to send
        > them (when I have worked out the safest most cost
        > efficient way to do it)
        > round the world for the pleasure of others.
        >
        > I had been thinking of producing a narrow gauge
        > loco. kit but, if it is true
        > that there are only around 50 1:32 NG modellers
        > world wide and, bearing in
        > mind that I would also be competing with some
        > part-time manufacturers who do
        > not need to make a profit as they have full time
        > jobs to support themselves,
        > I have decided, at least for the time being, to
        > continue to only manufacture
        > those items in 1:32 scale which I judge to have
        > universal appeal.
        >
        > David Sutton, wwwsanddmodels.co.uk
        >
        >
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: FS32NGModelrail@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:FS32NGModelrail@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
        > Of Charles Hansen
        > Sent: 10 December 2008 14:29
        > To: FS32NGModelrail@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [FS32NGModelrail] Re: Caso coach (and
        > possible baggage) for the
        > U.S. From: Woodie Greene
        >
        >
        >
        > I have replied to Daniel offline, but feel I need to
        > respond to Woodie's
        > totally unjustified and unsupported comments on the
        > list.
        >
        >
        >
        > To begin with, my message made it clear that I knew
        > there was no market for
        > 500 kits (Banta's break point for a lower price),
        > but Daniel mis-read it and
        > Woodie is blindly echoing him without carefully
        > reading my text for himself.
        >
        >
        >
        > Secondly, I don't know what you mean by "modify" ?
        > Are you speaking of
        > using a different material or the proposed baggage
        > car? As I mentioned,
        > Daniel sent me the file with permission to produce
        > kits for modelers in the
        > U.S. I was asking if folks would be interested in a
        > baggage car version,
        > and given the spirit in which Daniel contributed the
        > file I didn't think
        > there was a problem with this.
        >
        >
        >
        > Lastly, just what is this "large prospective
        > customer base" you mention? As
        > you said yourself elsewhere, there are "perhaps 50
        > 1:32 narrow gauge
        > modelers worldwide".
        >
        >
        >
        > I only got involved with this with the thought of
        > bringing the coach "kit"
        > to US modelers without the need to pay high shipping
        > charges from Europe. I
        > certainly had no thoughts of personal gain, which is
        > likely impossible
        > anyway due to the size of the potential market, and
        > am rapidly coming to
        > regret this effort.
        >
        >
        >
        > Charles
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Woodie wrote: > For someone else to use your design
        > and "modify" it to suit
        > a large prospective customer base borders on being
        > immoral. Remember what me
        > and others have said about kit manufacturing,
        > helping friends is one
        > thing...sinking money and time into mass
        > merchandising is altogether
        > different.
        >
        >
        >
        >


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