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Re: [FS32NGModelrail] POSTED ON BEHALF OF MIKE SOUTH

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  • STEPHEN BENNETT
    Hi Martin There is nothing wrong with modelling the Ffestiniog or Penrhyn, if that is what you want to model. I think you missed my point in that these two
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 4, 2007
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      Hi Martin
      There is nothing wrong with modelling the Ffestiniog or Penrhyn, if that is what you want to model.  I think you missed my point in that these two are not typical of 2' gauge railways and as you were also looking for feedback on producing the chairs on a limited commercial basis and were obviously dissappointed with the response, thought I would try and give you an insight into why.  It wasnt an attack on what you were doing, I was only trying to inform.  Dont worry, I will stay out of it in future, I learn from my mistakes.
      Steve
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 11:28 AM
      Subject: Re: [FS32NGModelrail] POSTED ON BEHALF OF MIKE SOUTH

      Stephen,  I don't know why, but people on this group seem to take a delight in the apparent wilful misunderstanding of my mails.  I do not have Roy Link's encyclopaedic knowledge of the minutiae, which is why I like to be sure by measuring the real thing.  I have been loaned Ffestiniog and Penrhyn chairs and rail by the Archivist of the Ffestiniog Railway.  A trustworthy source, I think.  None of them are standard gauge items, they were cast at Beshesda Foundry.  They are quite a bit smaller than Standard Gauge items.
       
      I fail to see how my liking for chaired track and the Ffestiniog and Penrhyn can be seen as a "contradiction" .  I DO NOT like spiked track,right?  So I am making masters for chairs to be cast in white metal, slid on Code 125 rail (because I can't get 138) and fixed to wooden sleepers, previously worked up to look old and weathered.  I don't care about "99% of NG lines being flat bottom".  I KNOW they are, I'm not that unknowledgeable!  What makes you think I "just happened to pick two lines"?  I know and like those two lines.  I remember the Ffestiniog when it only just struggled to Boston Lodge and have the 8mm cine to prove it!
       
      I am equally aware that the rail at Bressingham may be from a heavyweight line, secondhand.  But I don't KNOW it is and it looks pretty small to me.  In fact the 15" uses heavier than the 2 ft., so clearly we're not in super-authenticity land, but it's there and I measured it.  If you lot know so much better, how about putting your knowledge up on the Files section with some proof.   Otherwise I select, I measure, I draw and I make.  Something I've been doing in many disciplines from canal architecture to full sized show cars for 38 years making a pretty decent living out of it.  I don't need people getting all uppity because I want to do things as correctly as I can out of respect for the scale, or questioning my integrity.
       
      Whether I'm modelling the Ffestiniog or not is irrelevant.  For those who may be, there will be chairs available, modelled from actual examples in my garden.  Where's the problem with that?  Even I have to model some spiked track here and there and that's fine where necessary. It adds a bit of variety and that's good.  Where I have to I will find some, measure it and find a way of reproducing it as near exactly as I can, because that's what I like to do. If adding a couple of products to the scale's limited stock of available items is treading on your business toes, you needn't worry.  I have no plans to become the next Backwoods or Roy Link, merely to offer what I'm making largely for myself available to anyone else who wants them.  The 7mm people are keen, the 1/32nd people seem to want only to score points.
      As our American friends say, "go figure"
       
      Martin

      STEPHEN BENNETT <steveblackdog@ blueyonder. co.uk> wrote:
      Sorry Martin, have stayed out of this due to lack of time to get involved, but think it time to add a few pointers here, as you are way off track (pun intended).  Your statement about doing it right and going the route of the Ffestiniog/Penrhyn is a complete contradiction for 99% of 2 foot gauge lines.  You just happened to have picked two systems that are practically unique in using standard gauge components to build their track, prior to preservation, that is.  Chaired track and bullhead rail are very rarely used in narrow gauge, flat bottomed rail is very much the norm.  Even the rail you mention at Bressingham is a bit on the heavy side for a 2 foot gauge line, going on your dimensions, I would think it is in the 25-30 pound per yard range and due to it's location, I suspect salvaged from somewhere like British Coal, where it would have been used on one of the heavy haulage lines of 30 or 36 inch gauge.  Of course, if you are building a model of the Ffestiniog keep on in the direction you are going, if not, it might be worth thinking again.
       
      Steve Bennett
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 7:24 PM
      Subject: Re: [FS32NGModelrail] POSTED ON BEHALF OF MIKE SOUTH

      Hi Mike, I know what you mean, but I have before me two Ffestiniog chairs and one Penrhyn into which fits a bit of rail which is 4 3/8ths in. high.  Divide by 32, you get 0.1367, so you could say Code 138.  What I find you can get easily is Code 125 from the British O-gauge standard gauge people.  Indeed, Code 100 is absolutely spot on for 7mm NG.  This is bullhead, of course. All I know about flat bottom is that at Bressingham the 2 ft. runs on rail 2 3/4ins. tall which is Code 85, which I think the 4mm standard gauge boys use.
      I couldn't believe the size of it either, but the maths add up.  More importantly the width looks good, too.  1/16th as near as damn it.
       
      I think 1/32 is THE scale and I want it just right. If Code 137 is available I'll try it.  The chair I have is dated 1887.  I assume the others are similarish. The rail fits them all perfectly and strangely doesn't look to high, full size. I don't think it looks too high in 125 on the model either.  I apologise for the iffy photos, I'll improve when I've sceniced them.
      Cheers, Martin

      Andrew Bantock <andrew.bantock@ virgin.net> wrote:
      TITLE: (Very Much Delayed*) Thoughts On 'Chairs'

      Hi Martin and Fellow FS32NGers,

      According to the FS32NG website, Code 132 would be a fairly hefty rail
      section.....

      http://members. aol.com/abantock /fs32ngmr/ size.html

      My personal preference is for Code 100 rail, as used in David Provan's
      track panels, even though even this smaller section more or less equates
      to a 60 lb. per yard prototype rail section, a weight that was often
      found on minor standard gauge railways until the 1960's/1970s. My
      recollection of working on the Talyllyn and the F(f)estiniog Railways in
      the 1960's is that their mainline rail weights were often in the 45 lb.
      to 55 lb. per yard range, with only 35 lb. in the sidings, and certainly
      the latter would be at the 'heavier use' end of the 2 foot(ish) gauge
      prototype railways spectrum. Just my own view :-)

      Mike South

      Calgary, Alberta, Canada

      (*My apologies in advance if you receive this message multiple times,
      both my [so called] ISP and Yahoo! Groups have been having truly massive
      technical problems over the last 72 hours - none of which they publicly
      admit to [surprised?] . This message was first e-mailed at 16-21 hrs on
      Friday 11 May 2007!!!)


      Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for your free account today.


      Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it now.

    • Nicholas Tozer
      I found the posting by Martin to be distasteful in its attitude to the helpful posting that prompted it...in fact I believe that the poster should have been
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 4, 2007
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        I found the posting by Martin to be distasteful in its attitude to the
        helpful posting that prompted it...in fact I believe that the poster
        should have been moderated rather than inflict this type of post on an
        otherwise friendly group.

        --- In FS32NGModelrail@yahoogroups.com, Martin Field <paglesham@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Stephen, I don't know why, but people on this group seem to take a
        delight in the apparent wilful misunderstanding of my mails. I do not
        have Roy Link's encyclopaedic knowledge of the minutiae, which is why
        I like to be sure by measuring the real thing. I have been loaned
        Ffestiniog and Penrhyn chairs and rail by the Archivist of the
        Ffestiniog Railway. A trustworthy source, I think. None of them are
        standard gauge items, they were cast at Beshesda Foundry. They are
        quite a bit smaller than Standard Gauge items.
        >
        > I fail to see how my liking for chaired track and the Ffestiniog
        and Penrhyn can be seen as a "contradiction". I DO NOT like spiked
        track,right? So I am making masters for chairs to be cast in white
        metal, slid on Code 125 rail (because I can't get 138) and fixed to
        wooden sleepers, previously worked up to look old and weathered. I
        don't care about "99% of NG lines being flat bottom". I KNOW they
        are, I'm not that unknowledgeable! What makes you think I "just
        happened to pick two lines"? I know and like those two lines. I
        remember the Ffestiniog when it only just struggled to Boston Lodge
        and have the 8mm cine to prove it!
        >
        > I am equally aware that the rail at Bressingham may be from a
        heavyweight line, secondhand. But I don't KNOW it is and it looks
        pretty small to me. In fact the 15" uses heavier than the 2 ft., so
        clearly we're not in super-authenticity land, but it's there and I
        measured it. If you lot know so much better, how about putting your
        knowledge up on the Files section with some proof. Otherwise I
        select, I measure, I draw and I make. Something I've been doing in
        many disciplines from canal architecture to full sized show cars for
        38 years making a pretty decent living out of it. I don't need people
        getting all uppity because I want to do things as correctly as I can
        out of respect for the scale, or questioning my integrity.
        >
        > Whether I'm modelling the Ffestiniog or not is irrelevant. For
        those who may be, there will be chairs available, modelled from actual
        examples in my garden. Where's the problem with that? Even I have to
        model some spiked track here and there and that's fine where
        necessary. It adds a bit of variety and that's good. Where I have to
        I will find some, measure it and find a way of reproducing it as near
        exactly as I can, because that's what I like to do. If adding a couple
        of products to the scale's limited stock of available items is
        treading on your business toes, you needn't worry. I have no plans to
        become the next Backwoods or Roy Link, merely to offer what I'm making
        largely for myself available to anyone else who wants them. The 7mm
        people are keen, the 1/32nd people seem to want only to score points.
        > As our American friends say, "go figure"
        >
        > Martin
        >
      • Evan & Correne James
        What s the problem Nick, it s just two people having a disagreement, and I am sure they have sorted out their differences by now. There are few enough active
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 4, 2007
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          What's the problem Nick, it's just two people having a disagreement,
          and I am sure they have sorted out their differences by now. There are
          few enough active members of this group without moderating someone
          because he says something that, in your eyes, is not quite pc. What
          Martin was trying to explain that the chairs is what he personally
          wants for his modelling, and they are available for anyone else who
          wants them. In New Zealand the 9ml modellers (1/34th scale) have
          formalised that sort of thing even more and formed a co-operative
          called Von Strapp where the pattern is sent to Von Strapp which then
          gets it either cast in lost wax brass or spun in white metal. The mold
          is retained by Von Strapp and the part then goes into a catalogue for
          anyone else to order.

          evan



          > From: "Nicholas Tozer" <nick@...>
          > Date: June 5, 2007 2:43:39 AM GMT+12:00
          > To: FS32NGModelrail@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [FS32NGModelrail] Re: POSTED ON BEHALF OF MIKE SOUTH
          > Reply-To: FS32NGModelrail@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > I found the posting by Martin to be distasteful in its attitude to the
          > helpful posting that prompted it...in fact I believe that the poster
          > should have been moderated rather than inflict this type of post on an
          > otherwise friendly group.
          >
          > _,_._,___
          >
        • Martin Field
          Stephen, If your intention was indeed to inform I thank you and apologise for any offence. However, I think you might have assumed that as a member of a
          Message 4 of 8 , Jun 5, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Stephen, If your intention was indeed to inform I thank you and apologise for any offence.  However, I think you might have assumed that as a member of a specialised narrow gauge modelling group that I would have been aware of the split between those lines using chairs and those with spikes.  It came across as a bit condescending, that's all.  As you are probably aware, I've had that problem before.  Perhaps it's the shortcomings of the written word when passionate views are being conveyed?
            Anyway, Evan has pretty much summed it up in his answer to Nick Tozer.
            And his comments on Von Strapp seemed very interesting, what do you think?  Not that I mean you should hand over your masters as I'm sure you want also to "make a few bob".
            Any little thing I can sell is not so much a business as a wee lift for the "Boat Pot".  Oak and Opepe ain't cheap!  Cheers, Martin

            STEPHEN BENNETT <steveblackdog@...> wrote:
            Hi Martin
            There is nothing wrong with modelling the Ffestiniog or Penrhyn, if that is what you want to model.  I think you missed my point in that these two are not typical of 2' gauge railways and as you were also looking for feedback on producing the chairs on a limited commercial basis and were obviously dissappointed with the response, thought I would try and give you an insight into why.  It wasnt an attack on what you were doing, I was only trying to inform.  Dont worry, I will stay out of it in future, I learn from my mistakes.
            Steve
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Monday, June 04, 2007 11:28 AM
            Subject: Re: [FS32NGModelrail] POSTED ON BEHALF OF MIKE SOUTH

            Stephen,  I don't know why, but people on this group seem to take a delight in the apparent wilful misunderstanding of my mails.  I do not have Roy Link's encyclopaedic knowledge of the minutiae, which is why I like to be sure by measuring the real thing.  I have been loaned Ffestiniog and Penrhyn chairs and rail by the Archivist of the Ffestiniog Railway.  A trustworthy source, I think.  None of them are standard gauge items, they were cast at Beshesda Foundry.  They are quite a bit smaller than Standard Gauge items.
             
            I fail to see how my liking for chaired track and the Ffestiniog and Penrhyn can be seen as a "contradiction" .  I DO NOT like spiked track,right?  So I am making masters for chairs to be cast in white metal, slid on Code 125 rail (because I can't get 138) and fixed to wooden sleepers, previously worked up to look old and weathered.  I don't care about "99% of NG lines being flat bottom".  I KNOW they are, I'm not that unknowledgeable!  What makes you think I "just happened to pick two lines"?  I know and like those two lines.  I remember the Ffestiniog when it only just struggled to Boston Lodge and have the 8mm cine to prove it!
             
            I am equally aware that the rail at Bressingham may be from a heavyweight line, secondhand.  But I don't KNOW it is and it looks pretty small to me.  In fact the 15" uses heavier than the 2 ft., so clearly we're not in super-authenticity land, but it's there and I measured it.  If you lot know so much better, how about putting your knowledge up on the Files section with some proof.   Otherwise I select, I measure, I draw and I make.  Something I've been doing in many disciplines from canal architecture to full sized show cars for 38 years making a pretty decent living out of it.  I don't need people getting all uppity because I want to do things as correctly as I can out of respect for the scale, or questioning my integrity.
             
            Whether I'm modelling the Ffestiniog or not is irrelevant.  For those who may be, there will be chairs available, modelled from actual examples in my garden.  Where's the problem with that?  Even I have to model some spiked track here and there and that's fine where necessary. It adds a bit of variety and that's good.  Where I have to I will find some, measure it and find a way of reproducing it as near exactly as I can, because that's what I like to do. If adding a couple of products to the scale's limited stock of available items is treading on your business toes, you needn't worry.  I have no plans to become the next Backwoods or Roy Link, merely to offer what I'm making largely for myself available to anyone else who wants them.  The 7mm people are keen, the 1/32nd people seem to want only to score points.
            As our American friends say, "go figure"
             
            Martin

            STEPHEN BENNETT <steveblackdog@ blueyonder. co.uk> wrote:
            Sorry Martin, have stayed out of this due to lack of time to get involved, but think it time to add a few pointers here, as you are way off track (pun intended).  Your statement about doing it right and going the route of the Ffestiniog/Penrhyn is a complete contradiction for 99% of 2 foot gauge lines.  You just happened to have picked two systems that are practically unique in using standard gauge components to build their track, prior to preservation, that is.  Chaired track and bullhead rail are very rarely used in narrow gauge, flat bottomed rail is very much the norm.  Even the rail you mention at Bressingham is a bit on the heavy side for a 2 foot gauge line, going on your dimensions, I would think it is in the 25-30 pound per yard range and due to it's location, I suspect salvaged from somewhere like British Coal, where it would have been used on one of the heavy haulage lines of 30 or 36 inch gauge.  Of course, if you are building a model of the Ffestiniog keep on in the direction you are going, if not, it might be worth thinking again.
             
            Steve Bennett
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2007 7:24 PM
            Subject: Re: [FS32NGModelrail] POSTED ON BEHALF OF MIKE SOUTH

            Hi Mike, I know what you mean, but I have before me two Ffestiniog chairs and one Penrhyn into which fits a bit of rail which is 4 3/8ths in. high.  Divide by 32, you get 0.1367, so you could say Code 138.  What I find you can get easily is Code 125 from the British O-gauge standard gauge people.  Indeed, Code 100 is absolutely spot on for 7mm NG.  This is bullhead, of course. All I know about flat bottom is that at Bressingham the 2 ft. runs on rail 2 3/4ins. tall which is Code 85, which I think the 4mm standard gauge boys use.
            I couldn't believe the size of it either, but the maths add up.  More importantly the width looks good, too.  1/16th as near as damn it.
             
            I think 1/32 is THE scale and I want it just right. If Code 137 is available I'll try it.  The chair I have is dated 1887.  I assume the others are similarish. The rail fits them all perfectly and strangely doesn't look to high, full size. I don't think it looks too high in 125 on the model either.  I apologise for the iffy photos, I'll improve when I've sceniced them.
            Cheers, Martin

            Andrew Bantock <andrew.bantock@ virgin.net> wrote:
            TITLE: (Very Much Delayed*) Thoughts On 'Chairs'

            Hi Martin and Fellow FS32NGers,

            According to the FS32NG website, Code 132 would be a fairly hefty rail
            section.....

            http://members. aol.com/abantock /fs32ngmr/ size.html

            My personal preference is for Code 100 rail, as used in David Provan's
            track panels, even though even this smaller section more or less equates
            to a 60 lb. per yard prototype rail section, a weight that was often
            found on minor standard gauge railways until the 1960's/1970s. My
            recollection of working on the Talyllyn and the F(f)estiniog Railways in
            the 1960's is that their mainline rail weights were often in the 45 lb.
            to 55 lb. per yard range, with only 35 lb. in the sidings, and certainly
            the latter would be at the 'heavier use' end of the 2 foot(ish) gauge
            prototype railways spectrum. Just my own view :-)

            Mike South

            Calgary, Alberta, Canada

            (*My apologies in advance if you receive this message multiple times,
            both my [so called] ISP and Yahoo! Groups have been having truly massive
            technical problems over the last 72 hours - none of which they publicly
            admit to [surprised?] . This message was first e-mailed at 16-21 hrs on
            Friday 11 May 2007!!!)


            Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for your free account today.


            Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it now.


            Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for your free account today.

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