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Re: Deutz PM

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  • Arnoud Bongaards
    Franck wrote, ... Hi Franck, I think it is the same loco. The DEUTZ/PETOLAT on the foto is missing some platework at the front but it looks exactly the same
    Message 1 of 17 , Apr 8, 2001
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      Franck wrote,

      > The PETOLAT french firm had built this model under Deutz licence.
      >Apparently it was the same loco, but I'm
      > not sure, I have still little doubt.

      Hi Franck,

      I think it is the same loco. The DEUTZ/PETOLAT on the foto is
      missing some platework at the front but it looks exactly the same as
      an original DEUTZ PM. Do the PETOLAT loco's have the same gearbox?
      The PETOLAT in the drawing is slightly different in appearance
      though....

      There are more locobuilders who built the same loco's or at least
      "look a likes":
      -GMEINDER (germany)diesels are in appearance the same as Dutch built
      -DUCROO & BRAUNS and HOVERS loco's (they had different engines though)
      -LKM NS 1 looks like the JUNG EL105 type
      -STANSTECO (England) did built loco's like the little JUNG MS131.
      -SPOORIJZER (Netherlands) and BAGNALL did built DEUTZ loco's in
      license. Some DUCROO steamloco's look alot like J.A. MAFFEI loco's.

      There are undoubtely more examples...

      Groeten,

      Arnoud Bongaards - Amsterdam
    • Mike South
      My sincere thanks to Franck Tavernier and Arnoud Bongaards for their gentle and most helpful attempts to improve my (woefully lacking) education about small
      Message 2 of 17 , Apr 8, 2001
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        My sincere thanks to Franck Tavernier and Arnoud Bongaards for their
        gentle and most helpful attempts to improve my (woefully lacking)
        education about small 'Continental' i/c locomotives :-)

        Mike South
      • Franck Tavernier
        Hi Arnoud, I believe that the gearbox was the same in the Deutz and the Petolat. The drawing isn t very detailed on this part. I have no other photos on these
        Message 3 of 17 , Apr 9, 2001
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          Hi Arnoud,

          I believe that the gearbox was the same in the Deutz and the Petolat. The
          drawing isn't very detailed on this part. I have no other photos on these
          engines.

          Have fun,

          Franck Tavernier.
        • Arnoud Bongaards
          ... Franck, Then we can safely assume that the loco s are exactly the same. BTW a very beautiful machine! Where was the photo taken? Groeten, Arnoud Bongaards
          Message 4 of 17 , Apr 9, 2001
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            --- In FS32NGModelrail@y..., "Franck Tavernier" <fvtavernier@c...>
            wrote:
            > Hi Arnoud,
            >
            >I believe that the gearbox was the same in the Deutz and the
            >Petolat.

            Franck,

            Then we can safely assume that the loco's are exactly the same.
            BTW a very beautiful machine! Where was the photo taken?

            Groeten,

            Arnoud Bongaards - Amsterdam
          • B.Rumary
            ... I would not say this is really true; although they are similar, there are also many differences. Certainly the Ns1 is _not_ a copy of the EL105. ... I
            Message 5 of 17 , Apr 10, 2001
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              In <9aq49b+q3ev@...>, Arnoud Bongaards wrote:

              > -LKM NS 1 looks like the JUNG EL105 type
              >
              I would not say this is really true; although they are similar, there
              are also many differences. Certainly the Ns1 is _not_ a copy of the
              EL105.

              > -STANSTECO (England) did built loco's like the little JUNG MS131.
              >
              I think Stansteco imported German (Jung?) locos - I don't think they
              built any themselves.

              > -SPOORIJZER (Netherlands) and BAGNALL did built DEUTZ loco's in
              > license. Some DUCROO steamloco's look alot like J.A. MAFFEI loco's.
              >
              I have seen a pair of DuCroo steam locos on Java that were actually
              built by Maffei. I believe that in their early years DuCroo supplied
              some steam locos that they did not build themselves.

              Brian Rumary, England

              http://freespace.virgin.net/brian.rumary/homepage.htm
            • Arnoud Bongaards
              Brian, all, ... No, you are right. It only looks like an EL 105 (general dimensions, frame and axleboxes). ... I have this info out of the book The British
              Message 6 of 17 , Apr 10, 2001
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                Brian, all,

                --- In FS32NGModelrail@y..., B.Rumary <brian.rumary@v...> wrote:
                In <9aq49b+q3ev@e...>, Arnoud Bongaards wrote:

                > > -LKM NS 1 looks like the JUNG EL105 type

                >I would not say this is really true; although they are similar,
                >there are also many differences. Certainly the Ns1 is not a copy
                >of the EL105.

                No, you are right. It only looks like an EL 105 (general dimensions,
                frame and axleboxes).

                > >STANSTECO (England) did built loco's like the little JUNG MS131.

                >I think Stansteco imported German (Jung?) locos - I don't think they
                > built any themselves.

                I have this info out of the book "The British Internal Combustion
                Locomotive 1894-1940" by Brian Webb. In the book is a pic of a
                Stansteco loco which, apart from different platework seems a copy of
                a Jung MS131. According to the info in the book Stansteco imported
                Jung loco's and made simular diesels themselves, of Jung design
                though built in Britain.

                > > -SPOORIJZER (Netherlands) and BAGNALL did built DEUTZ loco's in
                > > license. Some DUCROO steamloco's look alot like J.A. MAFFEI
                > > loco's.

                > I have seen a pair of DuCroo steam locos on Java that were actually
                > built by Maffei. I believe that in their early years DuCroo
                > supplied some steam locos that they did not build themselves.

                Du Croo & Brauns indeed in their early day's imported Maffei loco's
                from Germany. They even -after overhauling them- put Du Croo plates
                on Maffei loco's. The loco's they built later on had strong Maffei
                design influences.


                Groeten,

                Arnoud Bongaards - Amsterdam
              • Charley Lix
                Fellers , ... For the record only .. Stansteco was an importer for some time then took to building replica s for sale .. as I understand it .. Have Fun -
                Message 7 of 17 , Apr 10, 2001
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                  Fellers ,



                  ----------
                  >From: "B.Rumary" <brian.rumary@...>

                  >> -STANSTECO (England) did built loco's like the little JUNG MS131.

                  >I think Stansteco imported German (Jung?) locos - I don't think they
                  >built any themselves.


                  For the record only .. "Stansteco " was an importer for some time then took
                  to building replica's for sale .. as I understand it ..




                  Have Fun - Charley , G.R.G / MaB
                • Franck Tavernier
                  Hi Arnoud, guy s, The photos were taken on the Tacot des lacs railway association near Paris. The association Tacot des lacs is a preserved section of an
                  Message 8 of 17 , Apr 11, 2001
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                    Hi Arnoud, guy's,

                    The photos were taken on the "Tacot des lacs" railway association near Paris. The association "Tacot des lacs" is a preserved section of an industrial line built for sand quarries around Bourron-Marlotte. (Seine & Marne).

                    The collection is very impressive; this association preserves large amount equipment of diesel and steam locos. (WW1, industrial loco, etc.)

                    Have fun,

                    Franck Tavernier,

                    Athies, France.

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 10:52 PM
                    Subject: [FS32NGModelrail] Re: Deutz PM

                    --- In FS32NGModelrail@y..., "Franck Tavernier" <fvtavernier@c...>
                    wrote:
                    > Hi Arnoud,
                    >
                    >I believe that the gearbox was the same in the Deutz and the
                    >Petolat.

                    Franck,

                    Then we can safely assume that the loco's are exactly the same.
                    BTW a very beautiful machine! Where was the photo taken?

                    Groeten,

                    Arnoud Bongaards - Amsterdam



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                  • ScaleLinkDG@aol.com
                    Dans un courrier daté du 07/04/01 23:11:18 Paris, Madrid (heure d été), mikesouth@home.com a écrit :
                    Message 9 of 17 , Apr 19, 2001
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                      Dans un courrier daté du 07/04/01 23:11:18 Paris, Madrid (heure d'été),
                      mikesouth@... a écrit :

                      << Franck Tavernier initially wrote:-

                      "I'm in search of photos and drawings on the Deutz PME 117"

                      And then Arnoud Bongaards, Michel Massot, Joseph @ 'Scale Link', Gerrit
                      Van Roy and Evan James all made useful follow-up postings.

                      So here is where I demonstrate for all to see my abysmal ignorance of
                      most 'Continental' narrow gauge diesel locomotives... >>

                      It's a subject that I have only recently got involved in and I feel the same
                      way. There are just so many variants and so many manufacturers.

                      One recent posting mentioned the Frankfurt Feldbahnmuseum. At the recent
                      Paris show (from which I returned yesterday), another standholder showed me
                      the museum's handbook. This contains a simple drawing of a Deutz 117. Is this
                      the one that Franck is looking for?

                      While in Paris, also had long discussions about possible future projects. All
                      the recent postings (during my stay in Paris) give plenty of food for thought.

                      Early conclusion is that ScaleLink as such (and I will not bore you all here
                      with the intricacies of the various companies) will continue to concentrate
                      on its high-quality range of 1914-18 war locomotives and rolling stock. The
                      Péchot was received enthusiastically at Paris and will be followed by another
                      loco (internal combustion) later this year and, hopefully, some more wagons.

                      Under some other label (probably my own, EMP), we will try to launch some
                      smaller, simpler locos and rolling stock, perhaps in 1:35 rather than 9mm/ft.
                      Given the present workload on HO products, nothing is likely to appear before
                      1992 but some preliminary work will be done before then.

                      We looked through the catalogues of all the HO mainstream manufacturers but
                      could not find anything suitable in respect of steam locos. All failed either
                      on wheelbase or on wheel size. We can get wheels made to order at quite
                      reasonable prices so it seems more sensible for steam locomotives for it to
                      be a complete kit.

                      Diesels might be a different matter with some very good HO/OO diesel shunter
                      models available.

                      Regards,

                      Joseph

                      PS: Next exhibition of interest to NG modellers, Versailles (5ème Régiment du
                      Génie), 9/10 June.
                    • ScaleLinkDG@aol.com
                      Dans un courrier daté du 08/04/01 18:40:51 Paris, Madrid (heure d été), a67b@yahoo.com a écrit :
                      Message 10 of 17 , Apr 19, 2001
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                        Dans un courrier daté du 08/04/01 18:40:51 Paris, Madrid (heure d'été),
                        a67b@... a écrit :

                        << -SPOORIJZER (Netherlands) and BAGNALL did built DEUTZ loco's in
                        license. >>
                        This is most interesting information. I should be delighted to receive
                        further details. When making a kit it is very easy for us (as etching
                        specialists) to include alternative badges and worksplates.

                        Rgards,

                        Joseph Pestell
                      • Franck Tavernier
                        Hi Joseph, The Deutz preserved by the Frankfurt Museum is a Deutz OMZ 117, and not a PME 117. According to the http://www.Lokhersteller.de site, 6 museums
                        Message 11 of 17 , Apr 19, 2001
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                          Hi Joseph,

                          The Deutz preserved by the Frankfurt Museum is a Deutz OMZ 117, and not a PME 117.

                          According to the http://www.Lokhersteller.de site, 6 museums preserved a Deutz PME 117.

                          Two of them are private. I sent e-mail to two other museums of which I could find their address e-mail, last 9 April:

                            • The museum Industribaneklubben Hedehusene IBK "M9" in Denmark
                            • The museum Golden Valley Light Railway " furious " in England

                           

                          I always await an answer.

                          Have fun,

                          Franck Tavernier.

                          Athies, France.

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 9:21 AM
                          Subject: Re: [FS32NGModelrail] Re: Drawings and Photos wanted / Deutz OMZ 122 Drawings

                          Dans un courrier daté du 07/04/01 23:11:18 Paris, Madrid (heure d'été),
                          mikesouth@... a écrit :

                          << Franck Tavernier initially wrote:-

                          "I'm in search of photos and drawings on  the Deutz PME 117"

                          And then Arnoud Bongaards, Michel Massot, Joseph @ 'Scale Link', Gerrit
                          Van Roy and Evan James all made useful follow-up postings.

                          So here is where I demonstrate for all to see my abysmal ignorance of
                          most 'Continental' narrow gauge diesel locomotives... >>

                          It's a subject that I have only recently got involved in and I feel the same
                          way. There are just so many variants and so many manufacturers.

                          One recent posting mentioned the Frankfurt Feldbahnmuseum. At the recent
                          Paris show (from which I returned yesterday), another standholder showed me
                          the museum's handbook. This contains a simple drawing of a Deutz 117. Is this
                          the one that Franck is looking for?

                          While in Paris, also had long discussions about possible future projects. All
                          the recent postings (during my stay in Paris) give plenty of food for thought.

                          Early conclusion is that ScaleLink as such (and I will not bore you all here
                          with the intricacies of the various companies) will continue to concentrate
                          on its high-quality range of 1914-18 war locomotives and rolling stock. The
                          Péchot was received enthusiastically at Paris and will be followed by another
                          loco (internal combustion) later this year and, hopefully, some more wagons

                          Under some other label (probably my own, EMP), we will try to launch some
                          smaller, simpler locos and rolling stock, perhaps in 1:35 rather than 9mm/ft.
                          Given the present workload on HO products, nothing is likely to appear before
                          1992 but some preliminary work will be done before then.

                          We looked through the catalogues of all the HO mainstream manufacturers but
                          could not find anything suitable in respect of steam locos. All failed either
                          on wheelbase or on wheel size. We can get wheels made to order at quite
                          reasonable prices so it seems more sensible for steam locomotives for it to
                          be a complete kit.

                          Diesels might be a different matter with some very good HO/OO diesel shunter
                          models available.

                          Regards,

                          Joseph

                          PS: Next exhibition of interest to NG modellers, Versailles (5ème Régiment du
                          Génie), 9/10 June. 


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                        • ScaleLinkDG@aol.com
                          Dans un courrier daté du 20/04/01 00:34:24 Paris, Madrid (heure d été), fvtavernier@club-internet.fr a écrit :
                          Message 12 of 17 , Apr 19, 2001
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                            Dans un courrier daté du 20/04/01 00:34:24 Paris, Madrid (heure d'été),
                            fvtavernier@... a écrit :

                            << The Deutz preserved by the Frankfurt Museum is a Deutz OMZ 117, and not a
                            PME 117.

                            According to the http://www.Lokhersteller.de site, 6 museums preserved a
                            Deutz PME 117.

                            Two of them are private. I sent e-mail to two other museums of which I could
                            find their address e-mail, last 9 April:

                            a.. The museum Industribaneklubben Hedehusene IBK "M9" in Denmark
                            b.. The museum Golden Valley Light Railway " furious " in England
                            >>

                            Sorry about my confusion. As I posted earlier the amazing variety of loco
                            manufacturers and types is pretty daunting to any newcomer. When,
                            additionally, many of the manufacturers were making copies (either under
                            licence or unauthorised) of other firms' designs, it all gets very
                            complicated indeed.

                            Have not heard of this Golden Valley Light Railway before. If anyone has more
                            details, I will try to visit during my next trip to the UK (June).

                            Cheers,

                            Joseph
                          • Andreas Borrmann
                            Dear all, I take some some photos from the Deutz OMZ 117 at the Feldbahnmuseum in Frankfurt. You ll find them at the file section (folder: Deutz - OMZ 117).
                            Message 13 of 17 , Apr 19, 2001
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                              Dear all,
                              I take some some photos from the Deutz OMZ 117 at the Feldbahnmuseum
                              in Frankfurt. You'll find them at the file section (folder: Deutz -
                              OMZ 117).

                              Best regards
                              Andreas

                              --- In FS32NGModelrail@y..., "Franck Tavernier" <fvtavernier@c...>
                              wrote:
                              > Hi Joseph,
                              >
                              > The Deutz preserved by the Frankfurt Museum is a Deutz OMZ 117, and
                              not a PME 117.
                              >
                              > According to the http://www.Lokhersteller.de site, 6 museums
                              preserved a Deutz PME 117.
                              >
                              > Two of them are private. I sent e-mail to two other museums of
                              which I could find their address e-mail, last 9 April:
                              >
                              > a.. The museum Industribaneklubben Hedehusene IBK "M9" in
                              Denmark
                              > b.. The museum Golden Valley Light Railway " furious " in
                              England
                              >
                              >
                              > I always await an answer.
                              >
                              > Have fun,
                              >
                              > Franck Tavernier.
                              >
                              > Athies, France.
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: ScaleLinkDG@a...
                              > To: FS32NGModelrail@y...
                              > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2001 9:21 AM
                              > Subject: Re: [FS32NGModelrail] Re: Drawings and Photos wanted /
                              Deutz OMZ 122 Drawings
                              >
                              >
                              > Dans un courrier daté du 07/04/01 23:11:18 Paris, Madrid (heure
                              d'été),
                              > mikesouth@h... a écrit :
                              >
                              > << Franck Tavernier initially wrote:-
                              >
                              > "I'm in search of photos and drawings on the Deutz PME 117"
                              >
                              > And then Arnoud Bongaards, Michel Massot, Joseph @ 'Scale Link',
                              Gerrit
                              > Van Roy and Evan James all made useful follow-up postings.
                              >
                              > So here is where I demonstrate for all to see my abysmal
                              ignorance of
                              > most 'Continental' narrow gauge diesel locomotives... >>
                              >
                              > It's a subject that I have only recently got involved in and I
                              feel the same
                              > way. There are just so many variants and so many manufacturers.
                              >
                              > One recent posting mentioned the Frankfurt Feldbahnmuseum. At the
                              recent
                              > Paris show (from which I returned yesterday), another standholder
                              showed me
                              > the museum's handbook. This contains a simple drawing of a Deutz
                              117. Is this
                              > the one that Franck is looking for?
                              >
                              > While in Paris, also had long discussions about possible future
                              projects. All
                              > the recent postings (during my stay in Paris) give plenty of food
                              for thought.
                              >
                              > Early conclusion is that ScaleLink as such (and I will not bore
                              you all here
                              > with the intricacies of the various companies) will continue to
                              concentrate
                              > on its high-quality range of 1914-18 war locomotives and rolling
                              stock. The
                              > Péchot was received enthusiastically at Paris and will be
                              followed by another
                              > loco (internal combustion) later this year and, hopefully, some
                              more wagons
                              >
                              > Under some other label (probably my own, EMP), we will try to
                              launch some
                              > smaller, simpler locos and rolling stock, perhaps in 1:35 rather
                              than 9mm/ft.
                              > Given the present workload on HO products, nothing is likely to
                              appear before
                              > 1992 but some preliminary work will be done before then.
                              >
                              > We looked through the catalogues of all the HO mainstream
                              manufacturers but
                              > could not find anything suitable in respect of steam locos. All
                              failed either
                              > on wheelbase or on wheel size. We can get wheels made to order at
                              quite
                              > reasonable prices so it seems more sensible for steam locomotives
                              for it to
                              > be a complete kit.
                              >
                              > Diesels might be a different matter with some very good HO/OO
                              diesel shunter
                              > models available.
                              >
                              > Regards,
                              >
                              > Joseph
                              >
                              > PS: Next exhibition of interest to NG modellers, Versailles (5ème
                              Régiment du
                              > Génie), 9/10 June.
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                              > Subscribe: FS32NGModelrail-subscribe@onelist.com
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                              >
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                              Service.
                            • Claus Nielsen
                              Hi Franck I m a member of the danish Industrial Railway Society (Industribaneklubben) and active at the museums railway. The Deutz-loco (10204/1931) has since
                              Message 14 of 17 , Apr 20, 2001
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                                Hi Franck

                                I'm a member of the danish Industrial Railway Society (Industribaneklubben)
                                and active at the museums railway.

                                The Deutz-loco (10204/1931) has since changed number and is now M 40. The
                                loco is in working condition, but unfortunately not with it's original
                                engine. It is now equipped with a two cylinder Ruston & Hornsby.

                                Is it photos you need, the main dimensions or a complete drawing. Let me
                                know I will try to help. I suppose you have mailed post@... already? You
                                will probably not get a quick answer, but you should hear from us sooner or
                                later.

                                But let me know your needs - I will try to help.

                                Regards

                                Claus.
                              • Franck Tavernier
                                Hi Claus, Guy s, First, thank you very much for your mail. I actually sent e-mail to the address, which you indicate, but without response until now. You will
                                Message 15 of 17 , Apr 20, 2001
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                                  Hi Claus, Guy's,

                                  First, thank you very much for your mail.

                                  I actually sent e-mail to the address, which you indicate, but without response until now. You will find attached a copy of this mail.

                                  In fact, I seek especially photographs of the Deutz PME 117. If it's possible, could you do photographs of the model on front view, back view, side view, and in particular the plate manufacturer and the gearbox? Moreover, if you have complete drawings indeed it would be still better. However, if you do not have complete drawings it is not serious. Main dimensions will be enough. I have a simplified drawing of the Pétolat built under Deutz licence of PME 117. Nevertheless, I always have a small doubt about the exactitude of construction by Pétolat.

                                  In advance thank you very much.

                                  Franck Tavernier;

                                  Athies, France.

                                  ----- Original Message -----

                                  From: "Franck Tavernier" <fvtavernier@...>

                                  To: <post@...>

                                  Sent: Monday, April 09, 2001 9:45 PM

                                  Subject: Deutz PME 117 F Photos


                                  > Hi guy's,
                                  >
                                  > I'm in search of photos of the Deutz PME 117 F to build a model in 1:35
                                  > scale. I have seen on the Lokhersteller.de site that you have a model of it
                                  > since 1982. It's the N° M40, build Nr 10204.
                                  >
                                  > Could you possibly help me?
                                  >
                                  > Thanks in advance.
                                  >
                                  > Have fun,
                                  >
                                  > Franck Tavernier,
                                  >
                                  > Athies, France.

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: Friday, April 20, 2001 9:10 AM
                                  Subject: [FS32NGModelrail] Re: Drawings and Photos wanted / Deutz OMZ 122 Drawings

                                  Hi Franck

                                  I'm a member of the danish Industrial Railway Society (Industribaneklubben)
                                  and active at the museums railway.

                                  The Deutz-loco (10204/1931) has since changed number and is now M 40. The
                                  loco is in working condition, but unfortunately not with it's original
                                  engine. It is now equipped with a two cylinder Ruston & Hornsby.

                                  Is it photos you need, the main dimensions or a complete drawing. Let me
                                  know I will try to help. I suppose you have mailed post@... already? You
                                  will probably not get a quick answer, but you should hear from us sooner or
                                  later.

                                  But let me know your needs - I will try to help.

                                  Regards

                                  Claus.




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