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Re: accident rate

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  • flybellaire2004
    Dana, A couple things come to mind regarding safety and your question. At one time, the US had almost no statistics, because U/L incidents were not required
    Message 1 of 30 , Oct 1, 2009
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      Dana,
      A couple things come to mind regarding safety and your question. At one time, the US had almost no statistics, because U/L "incidents" were not required to be reported. It made getting insurance difficult, because they didn't have valid "numbers". And even the Canadian report.. might only be half of the actually events.

      It's true that a no license aircraft is going to be attempted to be flown w/o training. And there are two sides to that coin. I had some flight experience in a Champ, and lots of R/C flying, (and Sport Aviation reading), to consider myself VERY WELL informed, about how planes fly, stall, etc. I easily taught myself to fly my Vector, by the step-by-step method.. slow taxi, fast taxi, steering first by nose wheel, then with the rudders, short crow hops, etc. I practiced stalls on my first flight at altitude, to know when it would quit flying. And did all of that without any incident. A group I knew in Indy, used to sell Hummers, and would have people flying them successfully in a hour, using a radio headset. So most U/Ls are not difficult to fly, if a person has read, or been taught some basics. Its the ones who "hop in" and start it, or more often it's someone challenging the 90 degree cross-wind on their first flight, or running out of fuel, or buzzing corn fields, and getting sucked into the crops when the wheels touch. It's that lack of "seriousness" that many U/L pilots possessed which got them into trouble. A interesting note.. MOST accidents occurred in "shake-n-bake" quick build kits in the Canadian report! With very few in scratch built or plans built aircraft. Meaning the true builders invested time, and effort, and likely "some thought", and hangar conversations along the way.

      As for safety in general.. the U/L engines are NOT so reliable. In a U/L, esp with a 2-stroke, I've heard it said that you PLAN on the engine failing!! Not to rely on it. So practice at forced landings is a good thing, having altitude is a good thing over tough terrain, and just being prepared in general. Most U/Ls have little in the way of physical protection.. so they are not too crash-worthy.. BUT.. MOST WILL HAVE a ballistic chute (with VERY few GA having one of those). Airspeed is also a major safety aspect. A simple engine out in a 180 will have you hitting that plowed field at 60 or so?? You'll likely be on your back, or balled up. A U/L (by def) with a little head wind.. might hit that field at 15-20 MPH instead. That is bicycle speed. Find a short driveway with an approach, and stick it there.. versus a thousand feet? for a Cessna. Guys in U/Ls have perched them ON TOP of tree tops.. not having gone through them.

      But here are my known fatal accident reports to share, as best I recall. A jump instructor from Franklin Indiana, has his U/L out.. doing 3 CONSECUTIVE loops!! (non-aerobatic type craft, but it held together), until he stuck it firmly in the ground on round 3. Killed him. But his beer was not spilled from the swivel cup holder on the upright!! Duh!

      Flyer 2 borrows a BRAND new Hiper-Light, flies it down the runway and rolls it (or looped it, not sure), but the wing folds negative, and he augers in. Very dead, aircraft totally destroyed. This same guy had previously, "test flown" a Champ, with a FRESH wing rebuild, out of his back yard air-strip.. but he ROLLED IT too, ON TAKE OFF, to "check it out". Duh!

      There are bold pilots, and there are old pilots, but very few bold/old pilots!!

      Jerry

      --- In FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com, Dana Hague <d-m-hague@...> wrote:
      >
      > I saw an interesting statement today: "90 percent of ultralight mishaps
      > occur in the first 10 hours of flying." I've never heard that before. I
      > wonder if this is true? UL accident rates are higher than GA, but not all
      > that much higher. If the statement is true, that would mean that for
      > experienced pilots, UL's are _safer_ than GA airplanes.
      >
      > I can well believe that the statement was true in the early days of UL
      > flying, when there was no dual instruction (and sadly, it could be true
      > again with the end of the training exemptions).
      >
      > (The statement was in an article about a pilot badly injured in a crash
      > preparing to fly again,
      > <http://www.news-bulletin.com/nb/index.php/news/584-man-who-nearly-died-in-ultralight-plane-crash-ready-to-soar-again.html>.)
      >
      > -Dana
      > --
      > Ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country is doing
      > to you.
      >
    • Keith Newcomb
      Dana, Were you able to see the Dynabee Manual attachments (photos) I snt with my post on 9/25? I hope they were helpful. Keith ... From: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com
      Message 2 of 30 , Oct 1, 2009
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        Dana, 

         

            Were you able to see the Dynabee Manual attachments (photos) I snt with my post on 9/25?

        I hope they were helpful.

         

        Keith

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dana Hague
        Sent: Wednesday, September 30, 2009 9:34 PM
        To: fLY-UL@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: UL: accident rate

         

         

        I saw an interesting statement today: "90 percent of ultralight mishaps
        occur in the first 10 hours of flying." I've never heard that before. I
        wonder if this is true? UL accident rates are higher than GA, but not all
        that much higher. If the statement is true, that would mean that for
        experienced pilots, UL's are _safer_ than GA airplanes.

        I can well believe that the statement was true in the early days of UL
        flying, when there was no dual instruction (and sadly, it could be true
        again with the end of the training exemptions).

        (The statement was in an article about a pilot badly injured in a crash
        preparing to fly again,
        <http://www.news- bulletin. com/nb/index. php/news/ 584-man-who- nearly-died- in-ultralight- plane-crash- ready-to- soar-again. html>.)

        -Dana
        --
        Ask not what you can do for your country, but what your country is doing
        to you.

        No virus found in this incoming message.
        Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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      • Dave and Jean Matheny
        Yes, the statistic comes without an attribution, which is something newspaper editors generally do not allow. Then there s this -- He decided upon ultralights
        Message 3 of 30 , Oct 1, 2009
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          Yes, the statistic comes without an attribution, which is something newspaper editors generally do not allow. Then there's this --
           
          "He decided upon ultralights because they were affordable and because the FAA does not regulate them, which, Moses admits, is both good and bad."
           
          First, the FAA does regulate them, including weight, fuel capacity, top speed and other criteria; it just doesn't set airworthiness standards. Second, the use of the word "admits" sounds like some sort of confession, or admission of having done something wrong. Finally, the "good" and "bad" parts are not detailed. 
           
          Raise your hands, everybody who thinks the reporter believes these ultra-whatchamajiggers are a menace.
           
          --Dave M
           
           
        • Dana Hague
          Hes, thanks Keith... I forwarded them to my friend. -Dana ... -- An error? Impossible! My modem is error correcting.
          Message 4 of 30 , Oct 1, 2009
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            Hes, thanks Keith... I forwarded them to my friend.

            -Dana

            At 10:25 AM 10/1/2009, Keith Newcomb wrote:
              Dana,
            Were you able to see the Dynabee Manual attachments (photos) I snt with my post on 9/25?
            I hope they were helpful.

            --
             An error? Impossible! My modem is error correcting.
          • GeoB
            ... The NTSB/DOT did a motorcycle safety study in 1968. They have done others since, but I haven t read them. They found the same thing. High risk factors: -
            Message 5 of 30 , Oct 1, 2009
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              > I saw an interesting statement today: "90 percent of ultralight mishaps occur in the first 10 hours of flying."

              The NTSB/DOT did a motorcycle safety study in 1968. They have done others since, but I haven't read them. They found the same thing.

              High risk factors:

              - new to motorcycle
              - new to cycling in general
              - dark clothing
              - mid-size to large bike
              - 18-21 years old (IIRC)
              - average speed of impact in fatal accidents: 23 mph!
              - typically car turns left in front of motorcycle

              GeoB
            • elevensecgn
              ... In 68 there werent many crotch rockets. I d bet that today the fatal accident average speed is a bit higher than 23 mph. I ve seen them pass me on the
              Message 6 of 30 , Oct 1, 2009
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                --- In FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com, "GeoB" <gab16@...> wrote:
                >
                > > I saw an interesting statement today: "90 percent of ultralight mishaps occur in the first 10 hours of flying."
                >
                > The NTSB/DOT did a motorcycle safety study in 1968. They have done others since, but I haven't read them. They found the same thing.
                >
                > High risk factors:
                >
                > - new to motorcycle
                > - new to cycling in general
                > - dark clothing
                > - mid-size to large bike
                > - 18-21 years old (IIRC)
                > - average speed of impact in fatal accidents: 23 mph!
                > - typically car turns left in front of motorcycle
                >
                > GeoB

                In 68 there werent many crotch rockets. I'd bet that today the fatal accident average speed is a bit higher than 23 mph. I've seen them pass me on the interstate in excess of 150+ Wonder just how far you slide on concrete when you go down at that speed? I'll bet it leaves a mark :^o

                Dwight
                >
              • Richard Williams
                Dwight, Are you saying that you were doing 150 and the motorcycle passed you? R. Williams ... From: elevensecgn To:
                Message 7 of 30 , Oct 1, 2009
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                  Dwight,

                  Are you saying that you were doing 150 and the motorcycle passed you?

                  R. Williams



                  ---------- Original Message -----------
                  From: "elevensecgn" <elevensecgn@...>
                  To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 04:08:32 -0000
                  Subject: UL: Re: accident rate

                  >
                   

                  >
                  >
                  --- In FLY-UL@yahoogroups. com, "GeoB" <gab16@...> wrote:

                  >>
                  >> > I saw an interesting statement today: "90 percent of ultralight
                  mishaps occur in the first 10 hours of flying."

                  >>
                  >> The NTSB/DOT did a motorcycle safety study in 1968. They have done others
                  since, but I haven't read them. They found the same thing.

                  >>
                  >> High risk factors:
                  >>
                  >> - new to motorcycle
                  >> - new to cycling in general
                  >> - dark clothing
                  >> - mid-size to large bike
                  >> - 18-21 years old (IIRC)
                  >> - average speed of impact in fatal accidents: 23 mph!
                  >> - typically car turns left in front of motorcycle
                  >>
                  >> GeoB
                  >
                  >
                  In 68 there werent many crotch rockets. I'd bet that today the fatal accident average speed is a bit higher than 23 mph. I've seen them pass me on the interstate in excess of 150+ Wonder just how far you slide on concrete when you go down at that speed? I'll bet it leaves a mark :^o

                  >
                  >
                  Dwight

                • Kelley's
                  I ll bet it leaves a mark :^o Dwight ... Actually, it makes a mark and then erases it over and over again. Stupid should hurt!
                  Message 8 of 30 , Oct 1, 2009
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                    I'll bet it leaves a mark :^o

                    Dwight
                    >

                    Actually, it makes a mark and then erases it over and over again.
                    Stupid should hurt!
                  • ROGER MILLS
                    Not as far as I watched one guy. I was doing 70, he passed on apron, about 50 over my speed, got too close caught the handle bar on my rear view mirror,
                    Message 9 of 30 , Oct 2, 2009
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                      Not as far as I watched one guy.  I was doing 70, he passed on apron, about 50 over my speed, got too close caught the handle bar on my rear view mirror, hooked the front wheel of the bike under my RF tire.  Odd sight seeing a body pass me on the right about 8' in the air.  He went over 100 feet before he hit the first time and bounced more times than I could count.  No leathers so if concrete he would not have had any skin left, the side of the road was grass.  Busted his skid lid in three places, broken leg and still concious.  The idiot survived and probably feels invinceable now.  The bike was a ball of scrap.  Xmas eve and said he was late for family dinner.  
                       

                      To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com
                      From: elevensecgn@...
                      Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 04:08:32 +0000
                      Subject: UL: Re: accident rate

                       


                      --- In FLY-UL@yahoogroups. com, "GeoB" <gab16@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > > I saw an interesting statement today: "90 percent of ultralight mishaps occur in the first 10 hours of flying."
                      >
                      > The NTSB/DOT did a motorcycle safety study in 1968. They have done others since, but I haven't read them. They found the same thing.
                      >
                      > High risk factors:
                      >
                      > - new to motorcycle
                      > - new to cycling in general
                      > - dark clothing
                      > - mid-size to large bike
                      > - 18-21 years old (IIRC)
                      > - average speed of impact in fatal accidents: 23 mph!
                      > - typically car turns left in front of motorcycle
                      >
                      > GeoB

                      In 68 there werent many crotch rockets. I'd bet that today the fatal accident average speed is a bit higher than 23 mph. I've seen them pass me on the interstate in excess of 150+ Wonder just how far you slide on concrete when you go down at that speed? I'll bet it leaves a mark :^o

                      Dwight
                      >


                    • Dana Hague
                      I have a cabin near a lake in upstate NY. The road in is a twisty thing through the mountains, then goes straight along the opposite side of the lake from
                      Message 10 of 30 , Oct 2, 2009
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                        I have a cabin near a lake in upstate NY. The road in is a twisty thing
                        through the mountains, then goes straight along the opposite side of the
                        lake from me... until it wraps around a cove. Bikers love it, they come
                        down the hill and open it up on the straight... and about once a year one
                        of them doesn't slow down fast enough to get around the cove. Sometimes
                        they smear along the guardrail, sometimes they end up in the lake. It
                        takes about a half hour for the ambulance to arrive from town... often too
                        late.

                        It's gotten worse since the bridge at the opposite end of the lake is out,
                        with no outlet past our place... now the bikers think they own the road...
                        and they post videos of it on youtube... oh well, think of it as evolution
                        in action.

                        Ultralights seem so much safer...

                        -Dana
                        --
                        Remember when a trojan was a warrior?
                      • John W
                        Hey Dana, Think of it as populatuion control ---it should be encouraged!!! Thins out the useless gene pool . Course now I catch it . . . but I m going back
                        Message 11 of 30 , Oct 2, 2009
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                          Hey Dana,
                          Think of it as 'populatuion control'---it should be encouraged!!! Thins out the useless "gene pool".
                          Course now I 'catch it' . . . but I'm going back under my rock---where it's safe---j

                          --- On Fri, 10/2/09, Dana Hague <d-m-hague@...> wrote:

                          From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague@...>
                          Subject: RE: UL: Re: accident rate
                          To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Friday, October 2, 2009, 9:47 AM

                           
                          I have a cabin near a lake in upstate NY. The road in is a twisty thing
                          through the mountains, then goes straight along the opposite side of the
                          lake from me... until it wraps around a cove. Bikers love it, they come
                          down the hill and open it up on the straight... and about once a year one
                          of them doesn't slow down fast enough to get around the cove. Sometimes
                          they smear along the guardrail, sometimes they end up in the lake. It
                          takes about a half hour for the ambulance to arrive from town... often too
                          late.

                          It's gotten worse since the bridge at the opposite end of the lake is out,
                          with no outlet past our place... now the bikers think they own the road...
                          and they post videos of it on youtube... oh well, think of it as evolution
                          in action.

                          Ultralights seem so much safer...

                          -Dana
                          --
                          Remember when a trojan was a warrior?


                          __________________________________________________
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                        • Richard Williams
                          This is a story of the Darwin principal in action. R. Williams ... From: Dana Hague To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com Sent: Fri, 02 Oct 2009
                          Message 12 of 30 , Oct 2, 2009
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                            This is a story of the Darwin principal in action.

                            R. Williams


                            ---------- Original Message -----------
                            From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague@...>
                            To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 12:47:16 -0400
                            Subject: RE: UL: Re: accident rate

                            >
                             

                            >
                            > I have a cabin near a lake in upstate NY. The road in is a
                            twisty thing

                            >
                            through the mountains, then goes straight along the opposite side of the

                            >
                            lake from me... until it wraps around a cove. Bikers love it, they come

                            >
                            down the hill and open it up on the straight... and about once a year one

                            >
                            of them doesn't slow down fast enough to get around the cove. Sometimes

                            >
                            they smear along the guardrail, sometimes they end up in the lake. It

                            >
                            takes about a half hour for the ambulance to arrive from town... often too

                            >
                            late.

                            >
                            >
                            It's gotten worse since the bridge at the opposite end of the lake is out,

                            >
                            with no outlet past our place... now the bikers think they own the road...

                            >
                            and they post videos of it on youtube... oh well, think of it as evolution

                            >
                            in action.

                            >
                            >
                            Ultralights seem so much safer...

                            >
                            >
                            -Dana

                            >
                            --

                            >
                            Remember when a trojan was a warrior?

                            >
                            >

                            ------- End of Original Message -------
                          • ROGER MILLS
                            For the philoso-geeks--there is another principle at work here, it is the Peter Principle , (not behind your zipper!), it can be applied to people or society
                            Message 13 of 30 , Oct 2, 2009
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                              For the philoso-geeks--there is another principle at work here, it is the "Peter Principle", (not behind your zipper!), it can be applied to people or society and refers to exceeding the 'maximum level of incompetency a system can have without collapse'.  For people, it comes down to how dumb you need to be to get killed.  I prefer something more basic like in Forrest Gump--"Stupid is as Stupid does".  How stupid some one gets can hurt all of us.
                               
                              How this relates to us---wild and crazy is fun, stupid is not.
                               
                              If it only has one seat the FAA considers that you can be as crazy as you like, as long as you don't put anyone else in danger.  If it came with two seats and you want to "get wild and crazy", take the second seat out first.  No matter how crazy you get please don't be stupid enough to crash into a school bus.

                              I don't worry about the stupid folks that get killed being stupid--that problem is self limiting--I worry about the relatives that make it like the "dangerous device" killed their flawless and angelic child.  I also worry about those dummies that run out of gas and try to sue the manufacturer of the gas tank.
                               
                              For the sake of this sport, fly smart even when you fly crazy.
                               
                              Roger M
                               
                               

                              To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com
                              From: rkwill@...
                              Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 11:40:57 -0700
                              Subject: RE: UL: Re: accident rate

                               
                              This is a story of the Darwin principal in action.

                              R. Williams


                              ---------- Original Message -----------
                              From: Dana Hague <d-m-hague@comcast. net>
                              To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups. com
                              Sent: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 12:47:16 -0400
                              Subject: RE: UL: Re: accident rate

                              >  
                              >
                              > I have a cabin near a lake in upstate NY. The road in is a twisty thing
                              > through the mountains, then goes straight along the opposite side of the
                              > lake from me... until it wraps around a cove. Bikers love it, they come
                              > down the hill and open it up on the straight... and about once a year one
                              > of them doesn't slow down fast enough to get around the cove. Sometimes
                              > they smear along the guardrail, sometimes they end up in the lake. It
                              > takes about a half hour for the ambulance to arrive from town... often too
                              > late.
                              >
                              > It's gotten worse since the bridge at the opposite end of the lake is out,
                              > with no outlet past our place... now the bikers think they own the road...
                              > and they post videos of it on youtube... oh well, think of it as evolution
                              > in action.
                              >
                              > Ultralights seem so much safer...
                              >
                              > -Dana
                              > --
                              > Remember when a trojan was a warrior?
                              >
                              >
                              ------- End of Original Message -------

                            • elevensecgn
                              No, but there are factory bikes out there that can blow by you even if you are doing 150. The point I m making is that anybody with $500 down can go buy a 185
                              Message 14 of 30 , Oct 2, 2009
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                                No, but there are factory bikes out there that can blow by you even if you are doing 150. The point I'm making is that anybody with $500 down can go buy a 185 MPH MC and ride it off the dealers lot. No experience necessary. They learn as they go, and some dont live long enough to learn enough. Crotch rockets are Japan's way of getting back for Hiroshima, and Nagasaki :^) They are just killing one or 2 at a time :^)

                                --- In FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Williams" <rkwill@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Dwight,
                                >
                                > Are you saying that you were doing 150 and the motorcycle passed you?
                                >
                                > R. Williams
                                >
                                > ---------- Original Message -----------
                                > From: "elevensecgn" <elevensecgn@...>
                                > To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 04:08:32 -0000
                                > Subject: UL: Re: accident rate
                                >
                                > >  
                                > >
                                > > --- In FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com, "GeoB" <gab16@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > > I saw an interesting statement today: "90 percent of ultralight mishaps occur in the first 10 hours of flying."
                                > > >
                                > > > The NTSB/DOT did a motorcycle safety study in 1968. They have done others since, but I haven't read them. They found the same thing.
                                > > >
                                > > > High risk factors:
                                > > >
                                > > > - new to motorcycle
                                > > > - new to cycling in general
                                > > > - dark clothing
                                > > > - mid-size to large bike
                                > > > - 18-21 years old (IIRC)
                                > > > - average speed of impact in fatal accidents: 23 mph!
                                > > > - typically car turns left in front of motorcycle
                                > > >
                                > > > GeoB
                                > >
                                > > In 68 there werent many crotch rockets. I'd bet that today the fatal accident average speed is a bit higher than 23 mph. I've seen them pass me on the interstate in excess of 150+ Wonder just how far you slide on concrete when you go down at that speed? I'll bet it leaves a mark :^o
                                > >
                                > > Dwight
                                >
                              • John W
                                Now that you mention it . . . I have bought and sold at least half dozen airplanes (ultralite to high performance) in the last two years and not once was I
                                Message 15 of 30 , Oct 2, 2009
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                                  Now that you mention it . . . I have bought and sold at least half dozen airplanes (ultralite to high performance) in the last two years and not once was I asked for my license---just the cash. So I guess it is somewhat universal.---j

                                  --- On Fri, 10/2/09, elevensecgn <elevensecgn@...> wrote:

                                  From: elevensecgn <elevensecgn@...>
                                  Subject: UL: Re: accident rate
                                  To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Friday, October 2, 2009, 3:58 PM

                                   
                                  No, but there are factory bikes out there that can blow by you even if you are doing 150. The point I'm making is that anybody with $500 down can go buy a 185 MPH MC and ride it off the dealers lot. No experience necessary. They learn as they go, and some dont live long enough to learn enough. Crotch rockets are Japan's way of getting back for Hiroshima, and Nagasaki :^) They are just killing one or 2 at a time :^)

                                  --- In FLY-UL@yahoogroups. com, "Richard Williams" <rkwill@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dwight,
                                  >
                                  > Are you saying that you were doing 150 and the motorcycle passed you?
                                  >
                                  > R. Williams
                                  >
                                  > ---------- Original Message -----------
                                  > From: "elevensecgn" <elevensecgn@ ...>
                                  > To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups. com
                                  > Sent: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 04:08:32 -0000
                                  > Subject: UL: Re: accident rate
                                  >
                                  > >  
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In FLY-UL@yahoogroups. com, "GeoB" <gab16@> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > > I saw an interesting statement today: "90 percent of ultralight mishaps occur in the first 10 hours of flying."
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The NTSB/DOT did a motorcycle safety study in 1968. They have done others since, but I haven't read them. They found the same thing.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > High risk factors:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > - new to motorcycle
                                  > > > - new to cycling in general
                                  > > > - dark clothing
                                  > > > - mid-size to large bike
                                  > > > - 18-21 years old (IIRC)
                                  > > > - average speed of impact in fatal accidents: 23 mph!
                                  > > > - typically car turns left in front of motorcycle
                                  > > >
                                  > > > GeoB
                                  > >
                                  > > In 68 there werent many crotch rockets. I'd bet that today the fatal accident average speed is a bit higher than 23 mph. I've seen them pass me on the interstate in excess of 150+ Wonder just how far you slide on concrete when you go down at that speed? I'll bet it leaves a mark :^o
                                  > >
                                  > > Dwight
                                  >


                                • ron ohler
                                  Humm, I remeber back when I was about 14 years old I had my Suzuki X-6 Hustler out on the ice. There were only a few patches of snow on the otherwise smooth
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Oct 2, 2009
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                                    Humm,
                                    I remeber back when I was about 14 years old I had my Suzuki X-6 Hustler out on the ice. There were only a few patches of snow on the otherwise smooth ice. I was running the bike flat out on the 1 1/2 mile length of the lake. Suzuki claimed the bike was good for 105mph. I believe it. Laying down on the gas tank like some modern day crotch rocket rider With tears streaming down my face from the cold air blowing up under the face plate I squeezing myself as tight to the bike as possible screaming down the lake on near bald knobby tires. Hit a open ice fishermans hole. Bike and I parted company. I didn't tumble but once or twice, I slid - and slid - and slid some more. With naught a single patch of snow to slow me it seemed I'd never stop. When I finally did - I layed there and felt enough pain to have a funny taste in my mouth and smell in my nose. Wimpered for my mommy a few times too. After a minute or two to gain my composure I tried to get up. Found myself frozen to the ice. Apparently the friction of sliding on the ice had melted a bit into my Levi's and they were now frozen. I peeled myself off the ice leaving a blue fuzz on the ice. It had to have been every bit of 200 yards of a walk back to the bike. It apparently only suffered having the handle bars shifted in the fork brackets and one foot peg bent a bit. I was on the other side of the lake from home. Thankfully it wasn't too difficult to get the bike to start after laying down for so many minutes and flooding the carbs a bit and gas spilled out the vents on the ice. I went on to ride on the ice some more over the winter but never that fast on 2 wheels ever again.
                                    Best regards,
                                    Ron O

                                    --- On Fri, 10/2/09, ROGER MILLS <irsmiley@...> wrote:

                                    From: ROGER MILLS <irsmiley@...>
                                    Subject: RE: UL: Re: accident rate
                                    To: fly-ul@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Friday, October 2, 2009, 11:06 AM

                                     
                                    Not as far as I watched one guy.  I was doing 70, he passed on apron, about 50 over my speed, got too close caught the handle bar on my rear view mirror, hooked the front wheel of the bike under my RF tire.  Odd sight seeing a body pass me on the right about 8' in the air.  He went over 100 feet before he hit the first time and bounced more times than I could count.  No leathers so if concrete he would not have had any skin left, the side of the road was grass.  Busted his skid lid in three places, broken leg and still concious.  The idiot survived and probably feels invinceable now.  The bike was a ball of scrap.  Xmas eve and said he was late for family dinner.  
                                     

                                    To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups. com
                                    From: elevensecgn@ yahoo.com
                                    Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 04:08:32 +0000
                                    Subject: UL: Re: accident rate

                                     


                                    --- In FLY-UL@yahoogroups. com, "GeoB" <gab16@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > I saw an interesting statement today: "90 percent of ultralight mishaps occur in the first 10 hours of flying."
                                    >
                                    > The NTSB/DOT did a motorcycle safety study in 1968. They have done others since, but I haven't read them. They found the same thing.
                                    >
                                    > High risk factors:
                                    >
                                    > - new to motorcycle
                                    > - new to cycling in general
                                    > - dark clothing
                                    > - mid-size to large bike
                                    > - 18-21 years old (IIRC)
                                    > - average speed of impact in fatal accidents: 23 mph!
                                    > - typically car turns left in front of motorcycle
                                    >
                                    > GeoB

                                    In 68 there werent many crotch rockets. I'd bet that today the fatal accident average speed is a bit higher than 23 mph. I've seen them pass me on the interstate in excess of 150+ Wonder just how far you slide on concrete when you go down at that speed? I'll bet it leaves a mark :^o

                                    Dwight
                                    >



                                  • flybellaire2004
                                    OK.. here s one for you to share, in hopes of being informative, versus judgmental. This involved a guy who was actually afraid most of his life (IMHO). He d
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Oct 3, 2009
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                                      OK.. here's one for you to share, in hopes of being informative, versus judgmental. This involved a guy who was actually afraid most of his life (IMHO). He'd fallen off of horses, motorcycles, quad runners.. and yet still bought a Drifter. (I own it now). He'd made only a hand full of flights, even with one successful engine out landing, but certainly under the aforementioned 10 hours of flight time. He'd taken about a hour of dual, but wasn't confident at all. He wasn't out to be stupid, or daring... just a bit too bold for his own good.

                                      In this particular flight, he did the following: And you can count the errors yourself if you want! I wasn't there, but did put together several detailed accounts from the many (family and flying buddy) observers.

                                      First off, he didn't open the throttle fully (on a plane with all kinds of power, and a great rate of climb).. but he started eating up the uphill runway. He'd broken ground, but "pulled it up", with lots of elevator. He managed some altitude, before it began to stall. That scared him, so he THEN pulled the throttle!! But luckily (?) then jammed it wide open. He could have popped the chute too, but that may not have helped at that altitude.. still might have had a better result. The 440 Kaw responded, but it hung on the prop, and was going off course wallowing. Instead of getting the nose down first, he added full right stick. The adverse yaw took him 90 degrees left from the runway, and "towards" a down-hill ravine (which he had used previously, in his very first, similar, timid departure). Only this time the left wing just brushed a tree top. That spun him around 270 degrees, with the outboard wing doing all the lift, but with insufficient airspeed otherwise. He hit the ground at about 45 degrees, into some brush, which probably saved his life. But on the front of a Drifter, there is zero body protection. Both of his legs, knees, and ankles provided the brakes.. or should I say BREAKS!! After several surgeries, he spent about 9 months in a wheel chair, with what they described as a Indy-car-crash injury (like..into the wall.. hard!). His comments later?? "I caught a cross-wind, gonna repair the plane and fly it again". Ah... that might not be a real good idea!!

                                      We bought him one of those T-shirts at Oshkosh which shows a guy flying his U/L across the front of the shirt, with a huge smile on his face. When you focus on the side of the shirt (in "front" of the plane)... there is a "vertical" line.. which oddly (?) contains houses, trees, and grass. The caption reads.. "Things are going great so far!"

                                      My dad (a careful pilot, and conscientious boater) used to refer to these "bold ones" as having a 100HP motor, with a 10HP brain. And I always laugh at the "You don't have to worry too much about what most people think, they don't DO THAT very often".

                                      Best to be informed, ready for the unexpected, comfortable in your skill level and capabilities, and to Fly safe!! Jerry

                                      --- In FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com, ron ohler <ohler_ron@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Humm,
                                      > I remeber back when I was about 14 years old I had my Suzuki X-6 Hustler out on the ice. There were only a few patches of snow on the otherwise smooth ice. I was running the bike flat out on the 1 1/2 mile length of the lake. Suzuki claimed the bike was good for 105mph. I believe it. Laying down on the gas tank like some modern day crotch rocket rider With tears streaming down my face from the cold air blowing up under the face plate I squeezing myself as tight to the bike as possible screaming down the lake on near bald knobby tires. Hit a open ice fishermans hole. Bike and I parted company. I didn't tumble but once or twice, I slid - and slid - and slid some more. With naught a single patch of snow to slow me it seemed I'd never stop. When I finally did - I layed there and felt enough pain to have a funny taste in my mouth and smell in my nose. Wimpered for my mommy a few times too. After a minute or two to gain my composure I tried to get up.
                                      > Found myself frozen to the ice. Apparently the friction of sliding on the ice had melted a bit into my Levi's and they were now frozen. I peeled myself off the ice leaving a blue fuzz on the ice. It had to have been every bit of 200 yards of a walk back to the bike. It apparently only suffered having the handle bars shifted in the fork brackets and one foot peg bent a bit. I was on the other side of the lake from home. Thankfully it wasn't too difficult to get the bike to start after laying down for so many minutes and flooding the carbs a bit and gas spilled out the vents on the ice. I went on to ride on the ice some more over the winter but never that fast on 2 wheels ever again.
                                      > Best regards,
                                      > Ron O
                                      >
                                      > --- On Fri, 10/2/09, ROGER MILLS <irsmiley@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > From: ROGER MILLS <irsmiley@...>
                                      > Subject: RE: UL: Re: accident rate
                                      > To: fly-ul@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Date: Friday, October 2, 2009, 11:06 AM
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >  
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Not as far as I watched one guy.  I was doing 70, he passed on apron, about 50 over my speed, got too close caught the handle bar on my rear view mirror, hooked the front wheel of the bike under my RF tire.  Odd sight seeing a body pass me on the right about 8' in the air.  He went over 100 feet before he hit the first time and bounced more times than I could count.  No leathers so if concrete he would not have had any skin left, the side of the road was grass.  Busted his skid lid in three places, broken leg and still concious.  The idiot survived and probably feels invinceable now.  The bike was a ball of scrap.  Xmas eve and said he was late for family dinner.  
                                      >  
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups. com
                                      > From: elevensecgn@ yahoo.com
                                      > Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2009 04:08:32 +0000
                                      > Subject: UL: Re: accident rate
                                      >
                                      >  
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In FLY-UL@yahoogroups. com, "GeoB" <gab16@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > > I saw an interesting statement today: "90 percent of ultralight mishaps occur in the first 10 hours of flying."
                                      > >
                                      > > The NTSB/DOT did a motorcycle safety study in 1968. They have done others since, but I haven't read them. They found the same thing.
                                      > >
                                      > > High risk factors:
                                      > >
                                      > > - new to motorcycle
                                      > > - new to cycling in general
                                      > > - dark clothing
                                      > > - mid-size to large bike
                                      > > - 18-21 years old (IIRC)
                                      > > - average speed of impact in fatal accidents: 23 mph!
                                      > > - typically car turns left in front of motorcycle
                                      > >
                                      > > GeoB
                                      >
                                      > In 68 there werent many crotch rockets. I'd bet that today the fatal accident average speed is a bit higher than 23 mph. I've seen them pass me on the interstate in excess of 150+ Wonder just how far you slide on concrete when you go down at that speed? I'll bet it leaves a mark :^o
                                      >
                                      > Dwight
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • rstar447
                                      It sounds cruel, but I had an engineer once tell me how to get rich quick. Buy an enthusiastic 18 year old a brand new crotch rocket and take out a healthy
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Oct 3, 2009
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                                        It sounds cruel, but I had an engineer once tell me how to get rich quick. Buy an enthusiastic 18 year old a brand new crotch rocket and take out a healthy life insurance policy on him. Let him take care of the rest.

                                        Ralph

                                        --- In FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com, "elevensecgn" <elevensecgn@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > No, but there are factory bikes out there that can blow by you even if you are doing 150. The point I'm making is that anybody with $500 down can go buy a 185 MPH MC and ride it off the dealers lot. No experience necessary. They learn as they go, and some dont live long enough to learn enough. Crotch rockets are Japan's way of getting back for Hiroshima, and Nagasaki :^) They are just killing one or 2 at a time :^)
                                        >
                                        > --- In FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Williams" <rkwill@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Dwight,
                                        > >
                                        > > Are you saying that you were doing 150 and the motorcycle passed you?
                                        > >
                                        > > R. Williams
                                        > >
                                        > > ---------- Original Message -----------
                                        > > From: "elevensecgn" <elevensecgn@>
                                        > > To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > Sent: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 04:08:32 -0000
                                        > > Subject: UL: Re: accident rate
                                        > >
                                        > > >  
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com, "GeoB" <gab16@> wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > > I saw an interesting statement today: "90 percent of ultralight mishaps occur in the first 10 hours of flying."
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > The NTSB/DOT did a motorcycle safety study in 1968. They have done others since, but I haven't read them. They found the same thing.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > High risk factors:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > - new to motorcycle
                                        > > > > - new to cycling in general
                                        > > > > - dark clothing
                                        > > > > - mid-size to large bike
                                        > > > > - 18-21 years old (IIRC)
                                        > > > > - average speed of impact in fatal accidents: 23 mph!
                                        > > > > - typically car turns left in front of motorcycle
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > GeoB
                                        > > >
                                        > > > In 68 there werent many crotch rockets. I'd bet that today the fatal accident average speed is a bit higher than 23 mph. I've seen them pass me on the interstate in excess of 150+ Wonder just how far you slide on concrete when you go down at that speed? I'll bet it leaves a mark :^o
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Dwight
                                        > >
                                        >
                                      • Keith Newcomb
                                        I was driving on the Florida Turnpike about 5 miles from my exit when a crotch rocket riding dude pulled up next to my Suburban. He waved to me and my family
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Oct 3, 2009
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                                          I was driving on the Florida Turnpike about 5 miles from my exit when a crotch rocket riding dude pulled up next to my Suburban.  He waved to me and my family and proceeded to pull away to a distance of about 100 yards.  He then slid sideways on the bike and very quickly planted both feet on the pavement and began to “ski” next to the bike.  He continued for about a half a mile which included skiing flawlessly over an overpass.  Then he lay back down on the seat, flipped himself back into the saddle and sped off.  My family and I were speechless. We were doing between 70 and 80 mph.

                                           

                                          Keith

                                          -----Original Message-----
                                          From: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com [mailto:FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John W
                                          Sent:
                                          Friday, October 02, 2009 7:03 PM
                                          To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: UL: Re: accident rate

                                           

                                           

                                          Now that you mention it . . . I have bought and sold at least half dozen airplanes (ultralite to high performance) in the last two years and not once was I asked for my license---just the cash. So I guess it is somewhat universal.-- -j

                                          --- On Fri,
                                          10/2/09, elevensecgn <elevensecgn@ yahoo.com> wrote:


                                          From: elevensecgn <elevensecgn@ yahoo.com>
                                          Subject: UL: Re: accident rate
                                          To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups. com
                                          Date:
                                          Friday, October 2, 2009, 3:58 PM

                                           

                                          No, but there are factory bikes out there that can blow by you even if you are doing 150. The point I'm making is that anybody with $500 down can go buy a 185 MPH MC and ride it off the dealers lot. No experience necessary. They learn as they go, and some dont live long enough to learn enough. Crotch rockets are Japan's way of getting back for Hiroshima, and Nagasaki :^) They are just killing one or 2 at a time :^)

                                          --- In FLY-UL@yahoogroups. com, "Richard Williams" <rkwill@...> wrote:

                                          >
                                          > Dwight,
                                          >
                                          > Are you saying that you were doing 150 and the motorcycle passed you?
                                          >
                                          > R. Williams
                                          >
                                          > ---------- Original Message -----------
                                          > From: "elevensecgn" <elevensecgn@ ...>
                                          > To:
                                          href="http://us.mc657.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=FLY-UL%40yahoogroups.com" target="_blank" rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:FLY-UL%40yahoogroups.com">FLY-UL@yahoogroups. com
                                          > Sent: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 04:08:32 -0000
                                          > Subject: UL: Re: accident rate
                                          >
                                          > >  
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In
                                          href="http://us.mc657.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=FLY-UL%40yahoogroups.com" target="_blank" rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:FLY-UL%40yahoogroups.com">FLY-UL@yahoogroups. com, "GeoB" <gab16@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > > I saw an interesting statement today: "90 percent of
                                          ultralight mishaps occur in the first 10 hours of flying."
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The NTSB/DOT did a motorcycle safety study in 1968. They have
                                          done others since, but I haven't read them. They found the same thing.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > High risk factors:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > - new to motorcycle
                                          > > > - new to cycling in general
                                          > > > - dark clothing
                                          > > > - mid-size to large bike
                                          > > > - 18-21 years old (IIRC)
                                          > > > - average speed of impact in fatal accidents: 23 mph!
                                          > > > - typically car turns left in front of motorcycle
                                          > > >
                                          > > > GeoB
                                          > >
                                          > > In 68 there werent many crotch rockets. I'd bet that today the
                                          fatal accident average speed is a bit higher than 23 mph. I've seen them pass me on the interstate in excess of 150+ Wonder just how far you slide on concrete when you go down at that speed? I'll bet it leaves a mark :^o
                                          > >
                                          > > Dwight
                                          >

                                           

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                                        • ls78705
                                          ... Can t afford that kind of insurance...... And usually the kid can t afford the insurance on the bike either unless they pay cash for it and can carry
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Oct 3, 2009
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                                            --- In FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com, "rstar447" <rstar447@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > It sounds cruel, but I had an engineer once tell me how to get rich quick. Buy an enthusiastic 18 year old a brand new crotch rocket and take out a healthy life insurance policy on him. Let him take care of the rest.
                                            >
                                            > Ralph

                                            Can't afford that kind of insurance...... And usually the kid can't afford the insurance on the bike either unless they pay cash for it and can carry simple liability.

                                            Full coverage on a typical sport bike is essentially the purchase price of the bike again in not more than 2 years (they expect you to dump it pretty much between immediately and about a year).

                                            I rode a Honda crotch rocket (CBR1100XX) for about 6 years as my daily driver back in TX and never had a moving incident (did drop it in a parking lot once which cost a few hundred to repair some minor stuff).

                                            What a lot of folks don't realize is the typical sport bike is virtually all high end racing technology and is thus extremely high quality in terms of construction, handling and more or less durability.

                                            Like ULs, the bikes themselves have taken the rap for a few nutcases running them into trees and off bridges etc.

                                            Unlike UL's tho, the insurance co's make a mint off the death, maming and destruction going on out on our highways on the things and thus don't discourage the industry (beyond just slap being completely irresponsible).

                                            But the insurance mob don't make a cent off UL's and never did, which is why the FnAA is trying to stamp em out......

                                            LS
                                            > --- In FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com, "elevensecgn" <elevensecgn@> wrote:
                                            > >
                                            > > No, but there are factory bikes out there that can blow by you even if you are doing 150. The point I'm making is that anybody with $500 down can go buy a 185 MPH MC and ride it off the dealers lot. No experience necessary. They learn as they go, and some dont live long enough to learn enough. Crotch rockets are Japan's way of getting back for Hiroshima, and Nagasaki :^) They are just killing one or 2 at a time :^)
                                            > >
                                            > > --- In FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com, "Richard Williams" <rkwill@> wrote:
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Dwight,
                                            > > >
                                            > > > Are you saying that you were doing 150 and the motorcycle passed you?
                                            > > >
                                            > > > R. Williams
                                            > > >
                                            > > > ---------- Original Message -----------
                                            > > > From: "elevensecgn" <elevensecgn@>
                                            > > > To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com
                                            > > > Sent: Fri, 02 Oct 2009 04:08:32 -0000
                                            > > > Subject: UL: Re: accident rate
                                            > > >
                                            > > > >  
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > --- In FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com, "GeoB" <gab16@> wrote:
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > > I saw an interesting statement today: "90 percent of ultralight mishaps occur in the first 10 hours of flying."
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > The NTSB/DOT did a motorcycle safety study in 1968. They have done others since, but I haven't read them. They found the same thing.
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > High risk factors:
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > - new to motorcycle
                                            > > > > > - new to cycling in general
                                            > > > > > - dark clothing
                                            > > > > > - mid-size to large bike
                                            > > > > > - 18-21 years old (IIRC)
                                            > > > > > - average speed of impact in fatal accidents: 23 mph!
                                            > > > > > - typically car turns left in front of motorcycle
                                            > > > > >
                                            > > > > > GeoB
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > In 68 there werent many crotch rockets. I'd bet that today the fatal accident average speed is a bit higher than 23 mph. I've seen them pass me on the interstate in excess of 150+ Wonder just how far you slide on concrete when you go down at that speed? I'll bet it leaves a mark :^o
                                            > > > >
                                            > > > > Dwight
                                            > > >
                                            > >
                                            >
                                          • George Bearden
                                            ... Right... but we still hit 80 between the lights. ... 23 mph. They have done another big study since. I d be curious to find out. I kinda think that this
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Oct 3, 2009
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                                              > In 68 there werent many crotch
                                              rockets.
                                               
                                              Right... but we still hit 80 between the lights.
                                               
                                              > I'd bet that today the fatal
                                              accident average speed is a bit higher than 23 mph.
                                               
                                              They have done another big study since. I'd be curious to find out. I kinda think that this number relates more to traffic congestion, visibility, average traffic speed than the bike's potential speed. But today's bikes get up to speed sooner. So maybe you are right. Statistically cycling is a lot safer these days. But that isn't what we are talking about I know.
                                               
                                            • George Bearden
                                              ... Yeap. Read the book. But here I think testosterone poisoning is a more likely answer. GeoB
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Oct 3, 2009
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                                                > For the
                                                philoso-geeks- -there is another principle at work here, it is the
                                                > "Peter Principle", (not behind
                                                your zipper!), it can be applied to people
                                                > or society and refers to
                                                exceeding the 'maximum level of incompetency
                                                > a system can have without
                                                collapse'.
                                                 
                                                Yeap. Read the book. But here I think 'testosterone poisoning' is a more likely answer.
                                                GeoB
                                              • George Bearden
                                                ... For you youngsters here, that was one KEWL bike! It was fast and tough. It was really reliable. It won 24 hour endurance races like crazy. Toppled Ducati
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Oct 3, 2009
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                                                  > I remeber back when I was about 14 years old I had
                                                  > my Suzuki X-6 Hustler out on the
                                                  ice.
                                                   
                                                  For you youngsters here, that was one KEWL bike! It was fast and tough. It was really reliable. It won 24 hour endurance races like crazy. Toppled Ducati from being the 250 king. Well, Yamaha may have done that already. But the X6 got great mileage when you drove it decently. It handled well for that era. You could race it everyday and it wouldn't break. Rings even seemed to last forever. If they sold new ones today I'd buy it in a flash. The downside was that you had to keep stirring things with the shifter, the power was narrow and it hit like a train wreck. But then I rode a Bridgestone 350 rotary valve.... 40+ hp out of 21 cu in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
                                                • ron ohler
                                                  Hi George, Guess you understand why I ve kept them. Yes, more than one. The rough Scrambler that was on the ice, 1 street that had a seized engine(you have to
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Oct 4, 2009
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Hi George,
                                                    Guess you understand why I've kept them. Yes, more than one. The rough Scrambler that was on the ice, 1 street that had a seized engine(you have to remember put oil in the injector tank once in a while - the owner didn't) a total parts bike now and 2 other street bikes. One's outside as I speak. Have to put it away for the winter. Back in 1982 I got a 57 Zundapp 250 Super Saber for $35. that runs good but needs restoration. Maybe someday I'll have enough money to match the projects I want to do. Got to work on a friends 73 Honda CB750 last year. Sheesh - heavy beast but it scoots along nicey.
                                                    Best regards,
                                                    Ron

                                                    --- On Sat, 10/3/09, George Bearden <gab16@...> wrote:

                                                    From: George Bearden <gab16@...>
                                                    Subject: UL: Re: accident rate
                                                    To: FLY-UL@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Date: Saturday, October 3, 2009, 11:14 PM

                                                     
                                                    > I remeber back when I was about 14 years old I had
                                                    > my Suzuki X-6 Hustler out on the ice.
                                                     
                                                    For you youngsters here, that was one KEWL bike! It was fast and tough. It was really reliable. It won 24 hour endurance races like crazy. Toppled Ducati from being the 250 king. Well, Yamaha may have done that already. But the X6 got great mileage when you drove it decently. It handled well for that era. You could race it everyday and it wouldn't break. Rings even seemed to last forever. If they sold new ones today I'd buy it in a flash. The downside was that you had to keep stirring things with the shifter, the power was narrow and it hit like a train wreck. But then I rode a Bridgestone 350 rotary valve.... 40+ hp out of 21 cu in!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!

                                                  • rstar447
                                                    I can see how all this motorcycle talk relates to flying. I ve found over the years that many pilots ride motorcycles or have ridden them at one time.
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Oct 4, 2009
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                                                      I can see how all this motorcycle talk relates to flying. I've found over the years that many pilots ride motorcycles or have ridden them at one time. Presently, I ride a GL1800 Goldwing and have had a few before this one. When the winds are high, I would rather be riding the 'wing than fighting the stick.

                                                      Ralph
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