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Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job

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  • Mark
    ... cowl units. ... green and ... 3s and the ... I ... surprised ... They had a simialr scheme but isntead of pinstripes it was one broad yellow (dulux gold)
    Message 1 of 18 , Apr 2, 2004
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      --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
      wrote:
      > Yes I see B&M and LV shared the same pattern on some of the LV
      cowl units.
      > B&M and MeC used the pattern on all F's and E's in both Dartmouth
      green and
      > Harvard crimson and on all their hood units too; even the Alco RS-
      3s and the
      > MeC RS-11s 801 and 802 were painted in the same pattern when new.
      I
      > couldn't find here any pics of the BL2s when new but wouldn't be
      surprised
      > if they had it too.

      They had a simialr scheme but isntead of pinstripes it was one broad
      yellow (dulux gold) stripe.

      The point here is that the scheme originated with the EMD F's and was
      adopted as standard by the B&M for all road units. Whether the scheme
      (i.e., paint layout) was designed specifically for the B&M or was
      already on paper at EMD I don't know for sure, but I do believe B&M
      was the first of many users of this paint layout.

      I think the only new units that didn't have that three
      > stripe with one along the base pattern on B&M and MeC were the Alco
      > switchers and the A cabs (44 tonners).

      As well as the E's and many of the EMD switchers which got the black
      switcher scheme.


      >
      > Did LV also apply the pattern to their other early diesel road
      units both
      > Alco and EMD or only that group? Was their color Cornell red?

      Most LV units in the 40s-60s wore Cornell red w/ black stripes in the
      B&M-style scheme. This includes EMD F's , ALco FAs, ALso RS-2s and
      switchers, Baldwin switchers, EMD switchers, etc. Pre-F unit diesels
      wore either very simple schemes or on EMD switchers, an odd maroon
      and grey with a yellow stripe scheme -which was also a standard
      EMD/EMC paint layout- which appeared on several other road's early
      (SW, SC, SW-1, NW-2, etc.) units as well, in various colors, and
      would appear to be an adaptation of the EMD/EMC demonstrator scheme
      that was applied to said early switcher demo units. Once the EMD F's
      came along that became the standard paint scheme.

      >
      > Now this has gone a long way from the uniqueness of the FJ&G's
      paint
      > pattern, which were different from each other in ways only a
      modeler would
      > notice.

      I am a modeler, and I would say that in terms of paint arrangement,
      disregarding colors, lettering, and a few minor embellishemnts or
      deletions, the B&M siwtcher scheme, the FJ&G scheme, the L&BR and G&U
      44 tonners, and a host of other units, are painted in about the same
      layout. Perhaps one needs to think not as a modeller who needs a
      different decal set for each scheme, but as the Alco-GE man who drew
      up the schemes on paper or laid out the stencils and masking for
      painting to realize that any of those schemes would be pretty
      repetitive with the exceptions of things like colors used, lettering
      of course, stripe width, addition or subtartion of a second body
      color and a separating stripe, etc.

      Line up a D&H RS-3 in black w/ yellow stripes and a SOO RS-1 in black
      with yellow stripes and an Alco demontsrator in green w/ yellow
      stripes,and Lake Erie, Franklin & Clarion RS-1 in black w/yellow
      stripes and a Chestnut Ridge Ry. S-2 in blackw/yellow stripes and a
      horde of industry,or shortline-owned Alco switchers in black or green
      w/ yellow stripes, and once again you'd see the only differences in
      the job the painter (or artist who drew them up) was doing involved
      colors, lettering, and in a few cases the width of the stripes and
      the addition or deletion of a horizontal yellow pinstripe running
      around the upper hood. You'll also notice how most of the schemes I
      mentioned above use black and yellow, so here we're talking about a
      mass of units for a variety of customers, all painted in the same
      layout as the Alco demonstrators with only very slight variations,
      and usually painted black and yellow too! If that does not constitute
      a standard paint scheme offered by a builder, I don't know what does!
      The buyers could of course choose not to accept it (i.e., instead of
      Henry Ford's "any color you like as long as it's black" quote
      regarding the Model T, Alco's was more like "any paint scheme you
      want as long as it's black with yellow end stripes, unless you want
      us to change the colors for you, or if you REALLy want to we can do
      something completely different.")

      I figured I'd add a little more since we are "discussing" and
      not "arguing"!

      Mark


      >
      > >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@y...>
      > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
      > >Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 02:49:40 -0000
      > >
      > >
      > >This is getting a little bit out of hand, it seems like we are
      > >arguing over petty points. Yes, each railroad had complete freedom
      > >to have it's locomtives painted however they wanted. But many did
      > >take advantage of the paint layouts available as standard designs
      > >from the builder. Likewise, many did not. Now if we are going to
      get
      > >into the nitty gritty, we'll line up a B&M F7a and a Lehigh Valley
      > >F7a. To your argument, it seems you'd say they're different schemes
      > >because one says B&M, has a minuteman on the nose, has large road
      > >numbers painted on the side of the body, the lettering font is
      > >Gothic, has a maroon body with yellow stripes, etc. while the other
      > >has a red body, black stripes, says LV in Roman lettering, has a
      > >flag on the nose, etc. To my argument, the paint layout for both
      > >schemes, with the exception of heralds, lettering, and the colors
      > >used, is in fact identical, as is so because EMD offered said paint
      > >arrangement to any customer that wanted it. Not everyone wanted it,
      > >but anyone that wanted it could have it, and EMD already had the
      > >stencil masters on hadn to do it. So if they had chose, NYC and
      > >Bangor & Aroostook F-units could have also worn the exact same EMD
      > >scheme, but they chose not to. To take it a step farther, the
      > >Louisiana & North West RR in the deep south had switchers painted
      > >exactly like a maroon B&M EMD switcher, which was the same scheme
      as
      > >was applied to B&M Fs (please dont' tell me those are two distinct
      > >schemes as well...)- even the colors were the same! The reason is
      > >because somewhere in the ordering process EMD said "here's a paint
      > >scheme for your engine? Do you like it?" In that case, the L&NW
      said
      > >the EMD scheme was fine, but they could just as well have come up
      > >with their own, told EMD to come up with a different one, or
      > >embellished upon it. But they didn't.
      > >
      > >Now, as for another example, closer to "home"- if you line up a B&M
      > >Alco-ge S-3 and an FJ&G Alco-GE S-2, the colors are different, the
      > >names are different, the FJ&G unit has a blck hood top separated by
      > >a yellow pisntripe while the hood top of the B&M unit is the same
      > >color as the sides and there is no pinstripe, and the nose stripes
      > >are inverted and angled at their terminii instead of curved, but
      > >other than that they are the same. Slightly different, but not
      much,
      > >and no coincidence either. FJ&G's 44 tonner was painted the same as
      > >the Alcos (at least for all practical purposes), meaning that even
      > >though the RR painted it and not Alco-GE it also wore an
      > >embellishment of the Alco-GE scheme. ALso, if one were to line up a
      > >B&W photo of an L&BR 44 tonner and the Grafton & Upton 44 tonner in
      > >their original schemes, the only visible differences would be the
      > >frame stripe on the L&BR unit, the width of the stripe that runs
      > >around the aupper part of the carbody, and the roadnames. This
      sin't
      > >because one RR copied the other or because they just happened to
      > >choose a virtually identical paint layout, it is because GE used
      > >their standard paint layout on both railroads units. Not a
      > >coincidence.
      > >
      > >And that is all I will say on this topic lest we begin to strike a
      > >deceased equine.
      > >
      > >Mark
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
      > >wrote:
      > > > The paint schemes used on locomotives were for the most part
      > >determined by
      > > > the individual railroads. Where the concepts came from is not
      > >important.
      > > > Your comparison to the automobile and the limitation in
      creativity
      > >for a
      > > > single pattern testifies to the imagination of the railroads and
      > > > manufacturers in ensuring that there were distinct differences
      in
      > >the
      > > > various paint schemes. Imitation is flattery but the individual
      > >PR
      > > > departments weren't interested in flattering their competitors
      > >regionally or
      > > > plagiarizing overall. Yes there can still be found similarities
      > >in spite of
      > > > their differences, but look closer and the differences are seen.
      > > >
      > > > The roads you listed with the FJ&G regarding the stirping on
      > >switchers each
      > > > had their own distinctive pattern. MeC and B&M for obvious
      > >reasons shared a
      > > > design but it was no way like the FJ&G other than it was
      stripes.
      > >Nor was
      > > > it like (as opposed to similar) Rutland, CV, NYC, D&H, NYC,NH
      > >etc. etc. or
      > > > any of them like the other. They were in fact notably different
      > >from one
      > > > another. The Pinsley lines had their distinctive paint scheme.
      > >Prior to
      > > > Pinsley in New England most of the shortlines with a few
      > >exceptions were
      > > > affiliated with the connecting class one. Berlin Mills, Grafton
      > >and Upton,
      > > > Aroostook Valley, Fore River, Belfast and Moosehead Lake are the
      > >only
      > > > independents I can think of off the top of my head - now I'm
      > >talking early
      > > > diesels and post WW2 - none is like another, even their 44
      tonners.
      > > >
      > > > Just to refresh I took a look at a few NYO&W F units. I don't
      > >think they
      > > > look very much like the early B&M or MeC Fs, nor do the SW units
      > >compare to
      > > > the scheme used on the B&M or MeC SWs.
      > > >
      > > > Several years ago Trains magazine did an extensive article on
      the
      > >designs
      > > > applied to early road diesels and while there may well have
      been a
      > >plain
      > > > jane off the shelf scheme, I can't recall any road that used it.
      > >I am at my
      > > > usual disadvantage because all my reference material is at
      another
      > >location
      > > > or I would share with you the issue and date. Neither do I have
      > >my
      > > > Cyclopedias here to reference. The web is too slow to cross
      > >reference the
      > > > various papint schemes. The roads that used plain jane paint
      > >schemes did it
      > > > for economy. After a while as budgets tightened it was better
      to
      > >cut the
      > > > fancy paint designs and put the money to more important
      projects.
      > > >
      > > > I would not be surprised if those color schemes and designs were
      > >reserved to
      > > > the individual carriers.
      > > >
      > > > I'll look closer too.
      > > >
      > > > PKL
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@y...>
      > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
      > > > >Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:09:43 -0000
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >All true. However, the loco builders did inded have standard
      paint
      > > > >arrangements. The individual buyers could specify their own
      > >scheme,
      > > > >have the builder design a scheme for them, or (probably at a
      > > > >significant cost savings, liken it to buying a new Ford in
      > >standard
      > > > >white or having it custom-painted metallic purple with a white
      > >racing
      > > > >stripe)choose a standard scheme and just specify the colors. It
      > >is no
      > > > >coincidence that Alco roadswitchers with V-nose stripes were so
      > > > >common (D&H, Soo, Rutland, etc.), GE and Alco switchers with
      > > > >horizontal stripes wrapping around onto the hood sides were
      even
      > >more
      > > > >so (B&M, MEC, FJ&G, and a horde of shortlines with absolutely
      no
      > > > >connections), EMD Fs of numerous roads wore the classic B&M
      paint
      > > > >arrangement adapted to their own colors, NYO&W F-units and
      Quebec,
      > > > >North Shore,& Labrador GP-9s were painted identically except
      for
      > >the
      > > > >roadname, etc. Certainly some roads created their very own
      > >striping
      > > > >schemes, but at some point in time some of the basic
      arrangements
      > >did
      > > > >become standard offering from the builders. Probably the
      > >variations
      > > > >in the schemes can be attributed in some cases to
      embellishments
      > >or
      > > > >modifications requested by the railroads, or because the
      railroads
      > > > >began to apply the standard builder schemes to other units
      > > > >themselves, and probably many of the standard builder schemes
      > >became
      > > > >standard only after the scheme was designed for a specific
      > >customer
      > > > >(for example, the B&M maroon w/yellow stripe schem I *believe*
      was
      > > > >originally designed for the B&M, and EMD would have already had
      > >the
      > > > >artwork, stencials, etc. so it would then make sense to offer
      that
      > > > >paint layout as a stadard scheme to any other railroad who
      wanted
      > >it
      > > > >adapted to their own colors. I'm not arguing here, just making
      the
      > > > >point that at some level the similarities of all these schemes
      > >does
      > > > >tie back to standard offerings from the diesel builders,
      > >regardless
      > > > >of the precise way in which the schemes came to be in the first
      > >place.
      > > > >
      > > > >Mark
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner"
      <pklarner@h...>
      > > > >wrote:
      > > > > > Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a
      > > > >resolution to an
      > > > > > industry safety issue, visibility. That design, if I recall
      > > > >correctly, or
      > > > > > rather the concept of stripes on the nose, was decided by
      one
      > >of
      > > > >the various
      > > > > > rr committes and applied by the individual railroad at their
      > > > >discretion.
      > > > > > The similarity results from the same conditions that created
      > >the
      > > > >color FJ&G
      > > > > > painted their trolleys. Those colors were agreed upon by
      some
      > > > >comittee of
      > > > > > traction owners to provide increased visibility etc. Hence
      the
      > > > >name
      > > > > > traction orange.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > The stripes were not all alike but were nevertheless
      > >alternating
      > > > >colors -
      > > > > > Rutland had their own variation and I'm ceratin we can all
      > >think of
      > > > >other
      > > > > > roads. I believe GMD had artists who worked with their
      > >customers
      > > > >to design
      > > > > > individual designs for the early road diesels. Can only
      > >believe
      > > > >that ALCo
      > > > > > had employees who did the same.
      > > > > >
      > > > > > PKL
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > > >From: "Walt Danylak" <waltdanylak@c...>
      > > > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
      > > > > > >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:35:10 -0000
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint
      > >scheme, the
      > > > > > >FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE
      from
      > >the
      > > > > > >W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville
      > >is was
      > > > > > >still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.
      > > > > > >
      > > > > > >Walt
      > > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > > > > >
      > >_________________________________________________________________
      > > > > > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at
      MSN
      > > > >Sports by
      > > > > > ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      _________________________________________________________________
      > > > Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is
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      >
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    • paul larner
      I went back to my first missive seeing that this discussion flowed from my statement that the nose stripe design evolved from a recommendation of a railroad
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 2, 2004
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        I went back to my first missive seeing that this discussion flowed from my
        statement that the nose stripe design evolved from a recommendation of a
        railroad management association answering a call for improved visibility for
        diesels and gas cars. That was my initial position as opposed to the design
        being created or evolving among the manufacturers; I stand with that
        "belief" (because I am not at home with my reference material).

        I'll be north next week and try to recall to dig into the why, who and when
        of that recommendation.

        Considering the basic shape of the diesel locomotive, it is amazing how many
        design variations were created while maintaining fluidity with the passenger
        train. Have any outclassed the designs created for the passenger locomotive
        fleets initially and for those installed as the railroads developed their
        modern fleets following WW2?

        PKL


        >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@...>
        >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
        >Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 15:37:32 -0000
        >
        >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
        >wrote:
        > > Yes I see B&M and LV shared the same pattern on some of the LV
        >cowl units.
        > > B&M and MeC used the pattern on all F's and E's in both Dartmouth
        >green and
        > > Harvard crimson and on all their hood units too; even the Alco RS-
        >3s and the
        > > MeC RS-11s 801 and 802 were painted in the same pattern when new.
        >I
        > > couldn't find here any pics of the BL2s when new but wouldn't be
        >surprised
        > > if they had it too.
        >
        >They had a simialr scheme but isntead of pinstripes it was one broad
        >yellow (dulux gold) stripe.
        >
        >The point here is that the scheme originated with the EMD F's and was
        >adopted as standard by the B&M for all road units. Whether the scheme
        >(i.e., paint layout) was designed specifically for the B&M or was
        >already on paper at EMD I don't know for sure, but I do believe B&M
        >was the first of many users of this paint layout.
        >
        >I think the only new units that didn't have that three
        > > stripe with one along the base pattern on B&M and MeC were the Alco
        > > switchers and the A cabs (44 tonners).
        >
        >As well as the E's and many of the EMD switchers which got the black
        >switcher scheme.
        >
        >
        > >
        > > Did LV also apply the pattern to their other early diesel road
        >units both
        > > Alco and EMD or only that group? Was their color Cornell red?
        >
        >Most LV units in the 40s-60s wore Cornell red w/ black stripes in the
        >B&M-style scheme. This includes EMD F's , ALco FAs, ALso RS-2s and
        >switchers, Baldwin switchers, EMD switchers, etc. Pre-F unit diesels
        >wore either very simple schemes or on EMD switchers, an odd maroon
        >and grey with a yellow stripe scheme -which was also a standard
        >EMD/EMC paint layout- which appeared on several other road's early
        >(SW, SC, SW-1, NW-2, etc.) units as well, in various colors, and
        >would appear to be an adaptation of the EMD/EMC demonstrator scheme
        >that was applied to said early switcher demo units. Once the EMD F's
        >came along that became the standard paint scheme.
        >
        > >
        > > Now this has gone a long way from the uniqueness of the FJ&G's
        >paint
        > > pattern, which were different from each other in ways only a
        >modeler would
        > > notice.
        >
        >I am a modeler, and I would say that in terms of paint arrangement,
        >disregarding colors, lettering, and a few minor embellishemnts or
        >deletions, the B&M siwtcher scheme, the FJ&G scheme, the L&BR and G&U
        >44 tonners, and a host of other units, are painted in about the same
        >layout. Perhaps one needs to think not as a modeller who needs a
        >different decal set for each scheme, but as the Alco-GE man who drew
        >up the schemes on paper or laid out the stencils and masking for
        >painting to realize that any of those schemes would be pretty
        >repetitive with the exceptions of things like colors used, lettering
        >of course, stripe width, addition or subtartion of a second body
        >color and a separating stripe, etc.
        >
        >Line up a D&H RS-3 in black w/ yellow stripes and a SOO RS-1 in black
        >with yellow stripes and an Alco demontsrator in green w/ yellow
        >stripes,and Lake Erie, Franklin & Clarion RS-1 in black w/yellow
        >stripes and a Chestnut Ridge Ry. S-2 in blackw/yellow stripes and a
        >horde of industry,or shortline-owned Alco switchers in black or green
        >w/ yellow stripes, and once again you'd see the only differences in
        >the job the painter (or artist who drew them up) was doing involved
        >colors, lettering, and in a few cases the width of the stripes and
        >the addition or deletion of a horizontal yellow pinstripe running
        >around the upper hood. You'll also notice how most of the schemes I
        >mentioned above use black and yellow, so here we're talking about a
        >mass of units for a variety of customers, all painted in the same
        >layout as the Alco demonstrators with only very slight variations,
        >and usually painted black and yellow too! If that does not constitute
        >a standard paint scheme offered by a builder, I don't know what does!
        >The buyers could of course choose not to accept it (i.e., instead of
        >Henry Ford's "any color you like as long as it's black" quote
        >regarding the Model T, Alco's was more like "any paint scheme you
        >want as long as it's black with yellow end stripes, unless you want
        >us to change the colors for you, or if you REALLy want to we can do
        >something completely different.")
        >
        >I figured I'd add a little more since we are "discussing" and
        >not "arguing"!
        >
        >Mark
        >
        >
        > >
        > > >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@y...>
        > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
        > > >Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 02:49:40 -0000
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >This is getting a little bit out of hand, it seems like we are
        > > >arguing over petty points. Yes, each railroad had complete freedom
        > > >to have it's locomtives painted however they wanted. But many did
        > > >take advantage of the paint layouts available as standard designs
        > > >from the builder. Likewise, many did not. Now if we are going to
        >get
        > > >into the nitty gritty, we'll line up a B&M F7a and a Lehigh Valley
        > > >F7a. To your argument, it seems you'd say they're different schemes
        > > >because one says B&M, has a minuteman on the nose, has large road
        > > >numbers painted on the side of the body, the lettering font is
        > > >Gothic, has a maroon body with yellow stripes, etc. while the other
        > > >has a red body, black stripes, says LV in Roman lettering, has a
        > > >flag on the nose, etc. To my argument, the paint layout for both
        > > >schemes, with the exception of heralds, lettering, and the colors
        > > >used, is in fact identical, as is so because EMD offered said paint
        > > >arrangement to any customer that wanted it. Not everyone wanted it,
        > > >but anyone that wanted it could have it, and EMD already had the
        > > >stencil masters on hadn to do it. So if they had chose, NYC and
        > > >Bangor & Aroostook F-units could have also worn the exact same EMD
        > > >scheme, but they chose not to. To take it a step farther, the
        > > >Louisiana & North West RR in the deep south had switchers painted
        > > >exactly like a maroon B&M EMD switcher, which was the same scheme
        >as
        > > >was applied to B&M Fs (please dont' tell me those are two distinct
        > > >schemes as well...)- even the colors were the same! The reason is
        > > >because somewhere in the ordering process EMD said "here's a paint
        > > >scheme for your engine? Do you like it?" In that case, the L&NW
        >said
        > > >the EMD scheme was fine, but they could just as well have come up
        > > >with their own, told EMD to come up with a different one, or
        > > >embellished upon it. But they didn't.
        > > >
        > > >Now, as for another example, closer to "home"- if you line up a B&M
        > > >Alco-ge S-3 and an FJ&G Alco-GE S-2, the colors are different, the
        > > >names are different, the FJ&G unit has a blck hood top separated by
        > > >a yellow pisntripe while the hood top of the B&M unit is the same
        > > >color as the sides and there is no pinstripe, and the nose stripes
        > > >are inverted and angled at their terminii instead of curved, but
        > > >other than that they are the same. Slightly different, but not
        >much,
        > > >and no coincidence either. FJ&G's 44 tonner was painted the same as
        > > >the Alcos (at least for all practical purposes), meaning that even
        > > >though the RR painted it and not Alco-GE it also wore an
        > > >embellishment of the Alco-GE scheme. ALso, if one were to line up a
        > > >B&W photo of an L&BR 44 tonner and the Grafton & Upton 44 tonner in
        > > >their original schemes, the only visible differences would be the
        > > >frame stripe on the L&BR unit, the width of the stripe that runs
        > > >around the aupper part of the carbody, and the roadnames. This
        >sin't
        > > >because one RR copied the other or because they just happened to
        > > >choose a virtually identical paint layout, it is because GE used
        > > >their standard paint layout on both railroads units. Not a
        > > >coincidence.
        > > >
        > > >And that is all I will say on this topic lest we begin to strike a
        > > >deceased equine.
        > > >
        > > >Mark
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
        > > >wrote:
        > > > > The paint schemes used on locomotives were for the most part
        > > >determined by
        > > > > the individual railroads. Where the concepts came from is not
        > > >important.
        > > > > Your comparison to the automobile and the limitation in
        >creativity
        > > >for a
        > > > > single pattern testifies to the imagination of the railroads and
        > > > > manufacturers in ensuring that there were distinct differences
        >in
        > > >the
        > > > > various paint schemes. Imitation is flattery but the individual
        > > >PR
        > > > > departments weren't interested in flattering their competitors
        > > >regionally or
        > > > > plagiarizing overall. Yes there can still be found similarities
        > > >in spite of
        > > > > their differences, but look closer and the differences are seen.
        > > > >
        > > > > The roads you listed with the FJ&G regarding the stirping on
        > > >switchers each
        > > > > had their own distinctive pattern. MeC and B&M for obvious
        > > >reasons shared a
        > > > > design but it was no way like the FJ&G other than it was
        >stripes.
        > > >Nor was
        > > > > it like (as opposed to similar) Rutland, CV, NYC, D&H, NYC,NH
        > > >etc. etc. or
        > > > > any of them like the other. They were in fact notably different
        > > >from one
        > > > > another. The Pinsley lines had their distinctive paint scheme.
        > > >Prior to
        > > > > Pinsley in New England most of the shortlines with a few
        > > >exceptions were
        > > > > affiliated with the connecting class one. Berlin Mills, Grafton
        > > >and Upton,
        > > > > Aroostook Valley, Fore River, Belfast and Moosehead Lake are the
        > > >only
        > > > > independents I can think of off the top of my head - now I'm
        > > >talking early
        > > > > diesels and post WW2 - none is like another, even their 44
        >tonners.
        > > > >
        > > > > Just to refresh I took a look at a few NYO&W F units. I don't
        > > >think they
        > > > > look very much like the early B&M or MeC Fs, nor do the SW units
        > > >compare to
        > > > > the scheme used on the B&M or MeC SWs.
        > > > >
        > > > > Several years ago Trains magazine did an extensive article on
        >the
        > > >designs
        > > > > applied to early road diesels and while there may well have
        >been a
        > > >plain
        > > > > jane off the shelf scheme, I can't recall any road that used it.
        > > >I am at my
        > > > > usual disadvantage because all my reference material is at
        >another
        > > >location
        > > > > or I would share with you the issue and date. Neither do I have
        > > >my
        > > > > Cyclopedias here to reference. The web is too slow to cross
        > > >reference the
        > > > > various papint schemes. The roads that used plain jane paint
        > > >schemes did it
        > > > > for economy. After a while as budgets tightened it was better
        >to
        > > >cut the
        > > > > fancy paint designs and put the money to more important
        >projects.
        > > > >
        > > > > I would not be surprised if those color schemes and designs were
        > > >reserved to
        > > > > the individual carriers.
        > > > >
        > > > > I'll look closer too.
        > > > >
        > > > > PKL
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > >
        > > > > >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@y...>
        > > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
        > > > > >Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:09:43 -0000
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >All true. However, the loco builders did inded have standard
        >paint
        > > > > >arrangements. The individual buyers could specify their own
        > > >scheme,
        > > > > >have the builder design a scheme for them, or (probably at a
        > > > > >significant cost savings, liken it to buying a new Ford in
        > > >standard
        > > > > >white or having it custom-painted metallic purple with a white
        > > >racing
        > > > > >stripe)choose a standard scheme and just specify the colors. It
        > > >is no
        > > > > >coincidence that Alco roadswitchers with V-nose stripes were so
        > > > > >common (D&H, Soo, Rutland, etc.), GE and Alco switchers with
        > > > > >horizontal stripes wrapping around onto the hood sides were
        >even
        > > >more
        > > > > >so (B&M, MEC, FJ&G, and a horde of shortlines with absolutely
        >no
        > > > > >connections), EMD Fs of numerous roads wore the classic B&M
        >paint
        > > > > >arrangement adapted to their own colors, NYO&W F-units and
        >Quebec,
        > > > > >North Shore,& Labrador GP-9s were painted identically except
        >for
        > > >the
        > > > > >roadname, etc. Certainly some roads created their very own
        > > >striping
        > > > > >schemes, but at some point in time some of the basic
        >arrangements
        > > >did
        > > > > >become standard offering from the builders. Probably the
        > > >variations
        > > > > >in the schemes can be attributed in some cases to
        >embellishments
        > > >or
        > > > > >modifications requested by the railroads, or because the
        >railroads
        > > > > >began to apply the standard builder schemes to other units
        > > > > >themselves, and probably many of the standard builder schemes
        > > >became
        > > > > >standard only after the scheme was designed for a specific
        > > >customer
        > > > > >(for example, the B&M maroon w/yellow stripe schem I *believe*
        >was
        > > > > >originally designed for the B&M, and EMD would have already had
        > > >the
        > > > > >artwork, stencials, etc. so it would then make sense to offer
        >that
        > > > > >paint layout as a stadard scheme to any other railroad who
        >wanted
        > > >it
        > > > > >adapted to their own colors. I'm not arguing here, just making
        >the
        > > > > >point that at some level the similarities of all these schemes
        > > >does
        > > > > >tie back to standard offerings from the diesel builders,
        > > >regardless
        > > > > >of the precise way in which the schemes came to be in the first
        > > >place.
        > > > > >
        > > > > >Mark
        > > > > >
        > > > > >
        > > > > >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner"
        ><pklarner@h...>
        > > > > >wrote:
        > > > > > > Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a
        > > > > >resolution to an
        > > > > > > industry safety issue, visibility. That design, if I recall
        > > > > >correctly, or
        > > > > > > rather the concept of stripes on the nose, was decided by
        >one
        > > >of
        > > > > >the various
        > > > > > > rr committes and applied by the individual railroad at their
        > > > > >discretion.
        > > > > > > The similarity results from the same conditions that created
        > > >the
        > > > > >color FJ&G
        > > > > > > painted their trolleys. Those colors were agreed upon by
        >some
        > > > > >comittee of
        > > > > > > traction owners to provide increased visibility etc. Hence
        >the
        > > > > >name
        > > > > > > traction orange.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > The stripes were not all alike but were nevertheless
        > > >alternating
        > > > > >colors -
        > > > > > > Rutland had their own variation and I'm ceratin we can all
        > > >think of
        > > > > >other
        > > > > > > roads. I believe GMD had artists who worked with their
        > > >customers
        > > > > >to design
        > > > > > > individual designs for the early road diesels. Can only
        > > >believe
        > > > > >that ALCo
        > > > > > > had employees who did the same.
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > PKL
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >From: "Walt Danylak" <waltdanylak@c...>
        > > > > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        > > > > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
        > > > > > > >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:35:10 -0000
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint
        > > >scheme, the
        > > > > > > >FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE
        >from
        > > >the
        > > > > > > >W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville
        > > >is was
        > > > > > > >still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > > >Walt
        > > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > > > > >
        > > >_________________________________________________________________
        > > > > > > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at
        >MSN
        > > > > >Sports by
        > > > > > > ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
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        > > > >
        > > > >
        >_________________________________________________________________
        > > > > Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is
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      • Mark
        ... from my ... recommendation of a ... visibility for ... the design ... that ... I do not disagree at all with the above, but I do maintain that there were
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 2, 2004
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          --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
          wrote:
          > I went back to my first missive seeing that this discussion flowed
          from my
          > statement that the nose stripe design evolved from a
          recommendation of a
          > railroad management association answering a call for improved
          visibility for
          > diesels and gas cars. That was my initial position as opposed to
          the design
          > being created or evolving among the manufacturers; I stand with
          that
          > "belief" (because I am not at home with my reference material).

          I do not disagree at all with the above, but I do maintain that
          there were specific applications of said "recommendation" that can
          be attributed to a layout drwan up by the builder and then offered
          as a standardized design to any customer who wanted it. That is the
          core of my "argument", that there were in fact paint layouts that
          were offered "off the shelf" by the builders, and that not all apint
          schemes were designed by or for a specific railroad, and that the
          similarities between the early paint schemes of several railroads
          can be atributed to these standard painting arrangements offered by
          the builders, not simply "coincidence".

          Mark
        • Charles Woolever
          There was an article in R&R many years ago about all of this. There were EMD drawings of F-units in various paint schemes. The DL&W maroon/gray/yellow was
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 5, 2004
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            There was an article in R&R many years ago about all of this. There
            were EMD drawings of F-units in various paint schemes. The DL&W
            maroon/gray/yellow was designed by EMD. What was interesting about all
            of the drawings was seeing other roads in same schemes, like Frisco in
            the DL&W colors or whatever.

            Extra2200 South si good for this too. It's all in B&W (older issues)
            and when you pull out the issues on say the GE 70 ton and see all the
            roster photos, sans color, you get a good sense on how similar the
            paint shemes all were to one another. If you didn't know better, you'd
            think 75% of smaller railroads were all in the same family!

            Charles
          • Dicarlo, Gino
            That s was pretty much what I was wondering Charles. I was making the assumption on B&W photos and just figured there was a standard paint job. When I did
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 5, 2004
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              That's was pretty much what I was wondering Charles. I was
              making the assumption on B&W photos and just figured there was
              a standard paint job. When I did finally see the colors of the
              Lowville & Beaver River 44-tonner I realized how different the
              paint was from the FJ&G...

              Gino

              -----Original Message-----
              From: Charles Woolever [mailto:yahoo@...]
              Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 3:52 PM
              To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job


              Extra2200 South si good for this too. It's all in B&W (older issues)
              and when you pull out the issues on say the GE 70 ton and see all the
              roster photos, sans color, you get a good sense on how similar the
              paint shemes all were to one another. If you didn't know better, you'd
              think 75% of smaller railroads were all in the same family!

              Charles
            • paul larner
              To see a few (understatement) of the various paint schemes applied to many of the diesel locomotive models offered by all the US builders and perhaps some more
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 5, 2004
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                To see a few (understatement) of the various paint schemes applied to many
                of the diesel locomotive models offered by all the US builders and perhaps
                some more (there are thousands) do a google search for "engine shop." The
                first item that comes up on my search is a site titled Engine Shop
                containing drawings with colors. 44 tonners, 70 tonners, E-6, E-8, F-7,
                BL-2 they're all there, I haen't looked at ALCo yet. Must be an identical
                scheme in there some where, you decide. Similar, how could they not be in
                many ways. Alike, take a look; what can I say. LV and B&M are in there.

                The url is usloki.tripod.com/ but that doesn't et you there; needs more.
                The google search gets me there and it can be saved as a favorite.

                PKL


                >From: "Charles Woolever" <yahoo@...>
                >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                >Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 19:51:56 -0000
                >
                >There was an article in R&R many years ago about all of this. There
                >were EMD drawings of F-units in various paint schemes. The DL&W
                >maroon/gray/yellow was designed by EMD. What was interesting about all
                >of the drawings was seeing other roads in same schemes, like Frisco in
                >the DL&W colors or whatever.
                >
                >Extra2200 South si good for this too. It's all in B&W (older issues)
                >and when you pull out the issues on say the GE 70 ton and see all the
                >roster photos, sans color, you get a good sense on how similar the
                >paint shemes all were to one another. If you didn't know better, you'd
                >think 75% of smaller railroads were all in the same family!
                >
                >Charles
                >

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              • Mark
                ... the ... you d ... Thank you Charles, at least somebody else sees what I see when they look at all those engines that were painted with most of the same
                Message 7 of 18 , Apr 6, 2004
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                  > and when you pull out the issues on say the GE 70 ton and see all
                  the
                  > roster photos, sans color, you get a good sense on how similar the
                  > paint shemes all were to one another. If you didn't know better,
                  you'd
                  > think 75% of smaller railroads were all in the same family!
                  >
                  > Charles


                  Thank you Charles, at least somebody else sees what I see when they
                  look at all those engines that were painted with most of the same
                  masking and stencils! It seems that what we have here is people
                  getting "blinded" by the different COLORS and getting distracted by
                  the presence or lack of separating stripes, etc. and therefore not
                  seeing that if you took away the pinstripes and separatung stripes,
                  and took the colors away and made everything tones of gray (or even
                  better, line drawings showing nothing more than the separation of the
                  two colors-i.e., the masking lines), the SCHEMES are similar if not
                  in many cases identical.

                  Gino seems to have hit the nail on the head without realizing it when
                  he said he didn't realize HOW DIFFERENT the L&BR and FJ&G schemes
                  were until he saw them both in COLOR. Yes, there are differences, but
                  there are also striking similarities. Look at them in B&W, take away
                  the saparting stripes on the FJ&G unit, and about all that's
                  different is the termination of the stripes. I am not saying these
                  schemes are the SAME, I am saying they are strikingly similar purely
                  from a layout standpoint for a reason other than coincidence.


                  To say this similarity is because, well, there isn't that much you
                  can do differently, is to say that stripes must be the same width, at
                  the same angle, start and end at the same points, etc. Stripes can be
                  anywhere from 0-90 degrees, anywhere (within reason) from 1/2 inch to
                  several feet wide, they could be visible only in an end view, wrap
                  around the entire locomtive, or anywhere in between, etc. Just
                  because all those engines with the same width stripes at the same
                  angles (or radii as the case may be) starting and ending at the same
                  points are all different colors or some of them have a separating
                  stripe, does not make them the result of individual design, starting
                  from scratch, by or for each owner. Also keep in mind here that we
                  are talking only about 40s-era as-delivered schemes from the
                  builders, not later schemes or railroad-applied or modified versions
                  of the builder schemes. So while there are certainly plenty of
                  totally unrelated, individually designed schemes out there, the
                  schemes in question, as applied to 1st generation diesels by the
                  builders when new, are very often variations on standard designs.

                  I guess maybe we all just have differing ideas of what constitutes a
                  significant "difference" in a paint scheme.

                  Mark
                • Dicarlo, Gino
                  I did a search on engine shop and that site is awesome!!! Check it out!!! It would be great to see some FJG engines on there! GINO ... From: paul larner
                  Message 8 of 18 , Apr 6, 2004
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                    I did a search on "engine shop" and that site is awesome!!!
                    Check it out!!! It would be great to see some FJG engines
                    on there!

                    GINO

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: paul larner [mailto:pklarner@...]
                    Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 2:02 AM
                    To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job


                    To see a few (understatement) of the various paint schemes applied to many
                    of the diesel locomotive models offered by all the US builders and perhaps
                    some more (there are thousands) do a google search for "engine shop." The
                    first item that comes up on my search is a site titled Engine Shop
                    containing drawings with colors. 44 tonners, 70 tonners, E-6, E-8, F-7,
                    BL-2 they're all there, I haen't looked at ALCo yet. Must be an identical
                    scheme in there some where, you decide. Similar, how could they not be in
                    many ways. Alike, take a look; what can I say. LV and B&M are in there.

                    The url is usloki.tripod.com/ but that doesn't et you there; needs more.
                    The google search gets me there and it can be saved as a favorite.

                    PKL
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