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Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job

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  • Mark
    All true. However, the loco builders did inded have standard paint arrangements. The individual buyers could specify their own scheme, have the builder design
    Message 1 of 18 , Apr 1, 2004
      All true. However, the loco builders did inded have standard paint
      arrangements. The individual buyers could specify their own scheme,
      have the builder design a scheme for them, or (probably at a
      significant cost savings, liken it to buying a new Ford in standard
      white or having it custom-painted metallic purple with a white racing
      stripe)choose a standard scheme and just specify the colors. It is no
      coincidence that Alco roadswitchers with V-nose stripes were so
      common (D&H, Soo, Rutland, etc.), GE and Alco switchers with
      horizontal stripes wrapping around onto the hood sides were even more
      so (B&M, MEC, FJ&G, and a horde of shortlines with absolutely no
      connections), EMD Fs of numerous roads wore the classic B&M paint
      arrangement adapted to their own colors, NYO&W F-units and Quebec,
      North Shore,& Labrador GP-9s were painted identically except for the
      roadname, etc. Certainly some roads created their very own striping
      schemes, but at some point in time some of the basic arrangements did
      become standard offering from the builders. Probably the variations
      in the schemes can be attributed in some cases to embellishments or
      modifications requested by the railroads, or because the railroads
      began to apply the standard builder schemes to other units
      themselves, and probably many of the standard builder schemes became
      standard only after the scheme was designed for a specific customer
      (for example, the B&M maroon w/yellow stripe schem I *believe* was
      originally designed for the B&M, and EMD would have already had the
      artwork, stencials, etc. so it would then make sense to offer that
      paint layout as a stadard scheme to any other railroad who wanted it
      adapted to their own colors. I'm not arguing here, just making the
      point that at some level the similarities of all these schemes does
      tie back to standard offerings from the diesel builders, regardless
      of the precise way in which the schemes came to be in the first place.

      Mark


      --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
      wrote:
      > Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a
      resolution to an
      > industry safety issue, visibility. That design, if I recall
      correctly, or
      > rather the concept of stripes on the nose, was decided by one of
      the various
      > rr committes and applied by the individual railroad at their
      discretion.
      > The similarity results from the same conditions that created the
      color FJ&G
      > painted their trolleys. Those colors were agreed upon by some
      comittee of
      > traction owners to provide increased visibility etc. Hence the
      name
      > traction orange.
      >
      > The stripes were not all alike but were nevertheless alternating
      colors -
      > Rutland had their own variation and I'm ceratin we can all think of
      other
      > roads. I believe GMD had artists who worked with their customers
      to design
      > individual designs for the early road diesels. Can only believe
      that ALCo
      > had employees who did the same.
      >
      > PKL
      >
      >
      > >From: "Walt Danylak" <waltdanylak@c...>
      > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
      > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
      > >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:35:10 -0000
      > >
      > >While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint scheme, the
      > >FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE from the
      > >W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville is was
      > >still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.
      > >
      > >Walt
      > >
      >
      > _________________________________________________________________
      > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN
      Sports by
      > ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
    • paul larner
      The paint schemes used on locomotives were for the most part determined by the individual railroads. Where the concepts came from is not important. Your
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 1, 2004
        The paint schemes used on locomotives were for the most part determined by
        the individual railroads. Where the concepts came from is not important.
        Your comparison to the automobile and the limitation in creativity for a
        single pattern testifies to the imagination of the railroads and
        manufacturers in ensuring that there were distinct differences in the
        various paint schemes. Imitation is flattery but the individual PR
        departments weren't interested in flattering their competitors regionally or
        plagiarizing overall. Yes there can still be found similarities in spite of
        their differences, but look closer and the differences are seen.

        The roads you listed with the FJ&G regarding the stirping on switchers each
        had their own distinctive pattern. MeC and B&M for obvious reasons shared a
        design but it was no way like the FJ&G other than it was stripes. Nor was
        it like (as opposed to similar) Rutland, CV, NYC, D&H, NYC,NH etc. etc. or
        any of them like the other. They were in fact notably different from one
        another. The Pinsley lines had their distinctive paint scheme. Prior to
        Pinsley in New England most of the shortlines with a few exceptions were
        affiliated with the connecting class one. Berlin Mills, Grafton and Upton,
        Aroostook Valley, Fore River, Belfast and Moosehead Lake are the only
        independents I can think of off the top of my head - now I'm talking early
        diesels and post WW2 - none is like another, even their 44 tonners.

        Just to refresh I took a look at a few NYO&W F units. I don't think they
        look very much like the early B&M or MeC Fs, nor do the SW units compare to
        the scheme used on the B&M or MeC SWs.

        Several years ago Trains magazine did an extensive article on the designs
        applied to early road diesels and while there may well have been a plain
        jane off the shelf scheme, I can't recall any road that used it. I am at my
        usual disadvantage because all my reference material is at another location
        or I would share with you the issue and date. Neither do I have my
        Cyclopedias here to reference. The web is too slow to cross reference the
        various papint schemes. The roads that used plain jane paint schemes did it
        for economy. After a while as budgets tightened it was better to cut the
        fancy paint designs and put the money to more important projects.

        I would not be surprised if those color schemes and designs were reserved to
        the individual carriers.

        I'll look closer too.

        PKL



        >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@...>
        >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
        >Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:09:43 -0000
        >
        >
        >All true. However, the loco builders did inded have standard paint
        >arrangements. The individual buyers could specify their own scheme,
        >have the builder design a scheme for them, or (probably at a
        >significant cost savings, liken it to buying a new Ford in standard
        >white or having it custom-painted metallic purple with a white racing
        >stripe)choose a standard scheme and just specify the colors. It is no
        >coincidence that Alco roadswitchers with V-nose stripes were so
        >common (D&H, Soo, Rutland, etc.), GE and Alco switchers with
        >horizontal stripes wrapping around onto the hood sides were even more
        >so (B&M, MEC, FJ&G, and a horde of shortlines with absolutely no
        >connections), EMD Fs of numerous roads wore the classic B&M paint
        >arrangement adapted to their own colors, NYO&W F-units and Quebec,
        >North Shore,& Labrador GP-9s were painted identically except for the
        >roadname, etc. Certainly some roads created their very own striping
        >schemes, but at some point in time some of the basic arrangements did
        >become standard offering from the builders. Probably the variations
        >in the schemes can be attributed in some cases to embellishments or
        >modifications requested by the railroads, or because the railroads
        >began to apply the standard builder schemes to other units
        >themselves, and probably many of the standard builder schemes became
        >standard only after the scheme was designed for a specific customer
        >(for example, the B&M maroon w/yellow stripe schem I *believe* was
        >originally designed for the B&M, and EMD would have already had the
        >artwork, stencials, etc. so it would then make sense to offer that
        >paint layout as a stadard scheme to any other railroad who wanted it
        >adapted to their own colors. I'm not arguing here, just making the
        >point that at some level the similarities of all these schemes does
        >tie back to standard offerings from the diesel builders, regardless
        >of the precise way in which the schemes came to be in the first place.
        >
        >Mark
        >
        >
        >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
        >wrote:
        > > Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a
        >resolution to an
        > > industry safety issue, visibility. That design, if I recall
        >correctly, or
        > > rather the concept of stripes on the nose, was decided by one of
        >the various
        > > rr committes and applied by the individual railroad at their
        >discretion.
        > > The similarity results from the same conditions that created the
        >color FJ&G
        > > painted their trolleys. Those colors were agreed upon by some
        >comittee of
        > > traction owners to provide increased visibility etc. Hence the
        >name
        > > traction orange.
        > >
        > > The stripes were not all alike but were nevertheless alternating
        >colors -
        > > Rutland had their own variation and I'm ceratin we can all think of
        >other
        > > roads. I believe GMD had artists who worked with their customers
        >to design
        > > individual designs for the early road diesels. Can only believe
        >that ALCo
        > > had employees who did the same.
        > >
        > > PKL
        > >
        > >
        > > >From: "Walt Danylak" <waltdanylak@c...>
        > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
        > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
        > > >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:35:10 -0000
        > > >
        > > >While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint scheme, the
        > > >FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE from the
        > > >W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville is was
        > > >still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.
        > > >
        > > >Walt
        > > >
        > >
        > > _________________________________________________________________
        > > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN
        >Sports by
        > > ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
        >

        _________________________________________________________________
        Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is protected and
        safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp
      • Mark
        This is getting a little bit out of hand, it seems like we are arguing over petty points. Yes, each railroad had complete freedom to have it s locomtives
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 1, 2004
          This is getting a little bit out of hand, it seems like we are
          arguing over petty points. Yes, each railroad had complete freedom
          to have it's locomtives painted however they wanted. But many did
          take advantage of the paint layouts available as standard designs
          from the builder. Likewise, many did not. Now if we are going to get
          into the nitty gritty, we'll line up a B&M F7a and a Lehigh Valley
          F7a. To your argument, it seems you'd say they're different schemes
          because one says B&M, has a minuteman on the nose, has large road
          numbers painted on the side of the body, the lettering font is
          Gothic, has a maroon body with yellow stripes, etc. while the other
          has a red body, black stripes, says LV in Roman lettering, has a
          flag on the nose, etc. To my argument, the paint layout for both
          schemes, with the exception of heralds, lettering, and the colors
          used, is in fact identical, as is so because EMD offered said paint
          arrangement to any customer that wanted it. Not everyone wanted it,
          but anyone that wanted it could have it, and EMD already had the
          stencil masters on hadn to do it. So if they had chose, NYC and
          Bangor & Aroostook F-units could have also worn the exact same EMD
          scheme, but they chose not to. To take it a step farther, the
          Louisiana & North West RR in the deep south had switchers painted
          exactly like a maroon B&M EMD switcher, which was the same scheme as
          was applied to B&M Fs (please dont' tell me those are two distinct
          schemes as well...)- even the colors were the same! The reason is
          because somewhere in the ordering process EMD said "here's a paint
          scheme for your engine? Do you like it?" In that case, the L&NW said
          the EMD scheme was fine, but they could just as well have come up
          with their own, told EMD to come up with a different one, or
          embellished upon it. But they didn't.

          Now, as for another example, closer to "home"- if you line up a B&M
          Alco-ge S-3 and an FJ&G Alco-GE S-2, the colors are different, the
          names are different, the FJ&G unit has a blck hood top separated by
          a yellow pisntripe while the hood top of the B&M unit is the same
          color as the sides and there is no pinstripe, and the nose stripes
          are inverted and angled at their terminii instead of curved, but
          other than that they are the same. Slightly different, but not much,
          and no coincidence either. FJ&G's 44 tonner was painted the same as
          the Alcos (at least for all practical purposes), meaning that even
          though the RR painted it and not Alco-GE it also wore an
          embellishment of the Alco-GE scheme. ALso, if one were to line up a
          B&W photo of an L&BR 44 tonner and the Grafton & Upton 44 tonner in
          their original schemes, the only visible differences would be the
          frame stripe on the L&BR unit, the width of the stripe that runs
          around the aupper part of the carbody, and the roadnames. This sin't
          because one RR copied the other or because they just happened to
          choose a virtually identical paint layout, it is because GE used
          their standard paint layout on both railroads units. Not a
          coincidence.

          And that is all I will say on this topic lest we begin to strike a
          deceased equine.

          Mark





          --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
          wrote:
          > The paint schemes used on locomotives were for the most part
          determined by
          > the individual railroads. Where the concepts came from is not
          important.
          > Your comparison to the automobile and the limitation in creativity
          for a
          > single pattern testifies to the imagination of the railroads and
          > manufacturers in ensuring that there were distinct differences in
          the
          > various paint schemes. Imitation is flattery but the individual
          PR
          > departments weren't interested in flattering their competitors
          regionally or
          > plagiarizing overall. Yes there can still be found similarities
          in spite of
          > their differences, but look closer and the differences are seen.
          >
          > The roads you listed with the FJ&G regarding the stirping on
          switchers each
          > had their own distinctive pattern. MeC and B&M for obvious
          reasons shared a
          > design but it was no way like the FJ&G other than it was stripes.
          Nor was
          > it like (as opposed to similar) Rutland, CV, NYC, D&H, NYC,NH
          etc. etc. or
          > any of them like the other. They were in fact notably different
          from one
          > another. The Pinsley lines had their distinctive paint scheme.
          Prior to
          > Pinsley in New England most of the shortlines with a few
          exceptions were
          > affiliated with the connecting class one. Berlin Mills, Grafton
          and Upton,
          > Aroostook Valley, Fore River, Belfast and Moosehead Lake are the
          only
          > independents I can think of off the top of my head - now I'm
          talking early
          > diesels and post WW2 - none is like another, even their 44 tonners.
          >
          > Just to refresh I took a look at a few NYO&W F units. I don't
          think they
          > look very much like the early B&M or MeC Fs, nor do the SW units
          compare to
          > the scheme used on the B&M or MeC SWs.
          >
          > Several years ago Trains magazine did an extensive article on the
          designs
          > applied to early road diesels and while there may well have been a
          plain
          > jane off the shelf scheme, I can't recall any road that used it.
          I am at my
          > usual disadvantage because all my reference material is at another
          location
          > or I would share with you the issue and date. Neither do I have
          my
          > Cyclopedias here to reference. The web is too slow to cross
          reference the
          > various papint schemes. The roads that used plain jane paint
          schemes did it
          > for economy. After a while as budgets tightened it was better to
          cut the
          > fancy paint designs and put the money to more important projects.
          >
          > I would not be surprised if those color schemes and designs were
          reserved to
          > the individual carriers.
          >
          > I'll look closer too.
          >
          > PKL
          >
          >
          >
          > >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@y...>
          > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
          > >Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:09:43 -0000
          > >
          > >
          > >All true. However, the loco builders did inded have standard paint
          > >arrangements. The individual buyers could specify their own
          scheme,
          > >have the builder design a scheme for them, or (probably at a
          > >significant cost savings, liken it to buying a new Ford in
          standard
          > >white or having it custom-painted metallic purple with a white
          racing
          > >stripe)choose a standard scheme and just specify the colors. It
          is no
          > >coincidence that Alco roadswitchers with V-nose stripes were so
          > >common (D&H, Soo, Rutland, etc.), GE and Alco switchers with
          > >horizontal stripes wrapping around onto the hood sides were even
          more
          > >so (B&M, MEC, FJ&G, and a horde of shortlines with absolutely no
          > >connections), EMD Fs of numerous roads wore the classic B&M paint
          > >arrangement adapted to their own colors, NYO&W F-units and Quebec,
          > >North Shore,& Labrador GP-9s were painted identically except for
          the
          > >roadname, etc. Certainly some roads created their very own
          striping
          > >schemes, but at some point in time some of the basic arrangements
          did
          > >become standard offering from the builders. Probably the
          variations
          > >in the schemes can be attributed in some cases to embellishments
          or
          > >modifications requested by the railroads, or because the railroads
          > >began to apply the standard builder schemes to other units
          > >themselves, and probably many of the standard builder schemes
          became
          > >standard only after the scheme was designed for a specific
          customer
          > >(for example, the B&M maroon w/yellow stripe schem I *believe* was
          > >originally designed for the B&M, and EMD would have already had
          the
          > >artwork, stencials, etc. so it would then make sense to offer that
          > >paint layout as a stadard scheme to any other railroad who wanted
          it
          > >adapted to their own colors. I'm not arguing here, just making the
          > >point that at some level the similarities of all these schemes
          does
          > >tie back to standard offerings from the diesel builders,
          regardless
          > >of the precise way in which the schemes came to be in the first
          place.
          > >
          > >Mark
          > >
          > >
          > >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
          > >wrote:
          > > > Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a
          > >resolution to an
          > > > industry safety issue, visibility. That design, if I recall
          > >correctly, or
          > > > rather the concept of stripes on the nose, was decided by one
          of
          > >the various
          > > > rr committes and applied by the individual railroad at their
          > >discretion.
          > > > The similarity results from the same conditions that created
          the
          > >color FJ&G
          > > > painted their trolleys. Those colors were agreed upon by some
          > >comittee of
          > > > traction owners to provide increased visibility etc. Hence the
          > >name
          > > > traction orange.
          > > >
          > > > The stripes were not all alike but were nevertheless
          alternating
          > >colors -
          > > > Rutland had their own variation and I'm ceratin we can all
          think of
          > >other
          > > > roads. I believe GMD had artists who worked with their
          customers
          > >to design
          > > > individual designs for the early road diesels. Can only
          believe
          > >that ALCo
          > > > had employees who did the same.
          > > >
          > > > PKL
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > >From: "Walt Danylak" <waltdanylak@c...>
          > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
          > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
          > > > >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:35:10 -0000
          > > > >
          > > > >While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint
          scheme, the
          > > > >FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE from
          the
          > > > >W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville
          is was
          > > > >still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.
          > > > >
          > > > >Walt
          > > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          _________________________________________________________________
          > > > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN
          > >Sports by
          > > > ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
          > >
          >
          > _________________________________________________________________
          > Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is
          protected and
          > safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp
        • paul larner
          Yes I see B&M and LV shared the same pattern on some of the LV cowl units. B&M and MeC used the pattern on all F s and E s in both Dartmouth green and Harvard
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 1, 2004
            Yes I see B&M and LV shared the same pattern on some of the LV cowl units.
            B&M and MeC used the pattern on all F's and E's in both Dartmouth green and
            Harvard crimson and on all their hood units too; even the Alco RS-3s and the
            MeC RS-11s 801 and 802 were painted in the same pattern when new. I
            couldn't find here any pics of the BL2s when new but wouldn't be surprised
            if they had it too. I think the only new units that didn't have that three
            stripe with one along the base pattern on B&M and MeC were the Alco
            switchers and the A cabs (44 tonners). Until the McGuiness era of course.
            After 1955 when the roads went their separate ways both developed other
            patterns.

            Did LV also apply the pattern to their other early diesel road units both
            Alco and EMD or only that group? Was their color Cornell red? Most of the
            photos I could locate for LV were second generation units and not unlike B&M
            and MeC showed a wide variety.

            And I do recall the shared scheme on the L&NW SWs in an article also many
            years ago, but couldn't quickly find a picture.

            Now this has gone a long way from the uniqueness of the FJ&G's paint
            pattern, which were different from each other in ways only a modeler would
            notice.

            PKL



            >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@...>
            >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
            >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
            >Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 02:49:40 -0000
            >
            >
            >This is getting a little bit out of hand, it seems like we are
            >arguing over petty points. Yes, each railroad had complete freedom
            >to have it's locomtives painted however they wanted. But many did
            >take advantage of the paint layouts available as standard designs
            >from the builder. Likewise, many did not. Now if we are going to get
            >into the nitty gritty, we'll line up a B&M F7a and a Lehigh Valley
            >F7a. To your argument, it seems you'd say they're different schemes
            >because one says B&M, has a minuteman on the nose, has large road
            >numbers painted on the side of the body, the lettering font is
            >Gothic, has a maroon body with yellow stripes, etc. while the other
            >has a red body, black stripes, says LV in Roman lettering, has a
            >flag on the nose, etc. To my argument, the paint layout for both
            >schemes, with the exception of heralds, lettering, and the colors
            >used, is in fact identical, as is so because EMD offered said paint
            >arrangement to any customer that wanted it. Not everyone wanted it,
            >but anyone that wanted it could have it, and EMD already had the
            >stencil masters on hadn to do it. So if they had chose, NYC and
            >Bangor & Aroostook F-units could have also worn the exact same EMD
            >scheme, but they chose not to. To take it a step farther, the
            >Louisiana & North West RR in the deep south had switchers painted
            >exactly like a maroon B&M EMD switcher, which was the same scheme as
            >was applied to B&M Fs (please dont' tell me those are two distinct
            >schemes as well...)- even the colors were the same! The reason is
            >because somewhere in the ordering process EMD said "here's a paint
            >scheme for your engine? Do you like it?" In that case, the L&NW said
            >the EMD scheme was fine, but they could just as well have come up
            >with their own, told EMD to come up with a different one, or
            >embellished upon it. But they didn't.
            >
            >Now, as for another example, closer to "home"- if you line up a B&M
            >Alco-ge S-3 and an FJ&G Alco-GE S-2, the colors are different, the
            >names are different, the FJ&G unit has a blck hood top separated by
            >a yellow pisntripe while the hood top of the B&M unit is the same
            >color as the sides and there is no pinstripe, and the nose stripes
            >are inverted and angled at their terminii instead of curved, but
            >other than that they are the same. Slightly different, but not much,
            >and no coincidence either. FJ&G's 44 tonner was painted the same as
            >the Alcos (at least for all practical purposes), meaning that even
            >though the RR painted it and not Alco-GE it also wore an
            >embellishment of the Alco-GE scheme. ALso, if one were to line up a
            >B&W photo of an L&BR 44 tonner and the Grafton & Upton 44 tonner in
            >their original schemes, the only visible differences would be the
            >frame stripe on the L&BR unit, the width of the stripe that runs
            >around the aupper part of the carbody, and the roadnames. This sin't
            >because one RR copied the other or because they just happened to
            >choose a virtually identical paint layout, it is because GE used
            >their standard paint layout on both railroads units. Not a
            >coincidence.
            >
            >And that is all I will say on this topic lest we begin to strike a
            >deceased equine.
            >
            >Mark
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
            >wrote:
            > > The paint schemes used on locomotives were for the most part
            >determined by
            > > the individual railroads. Where the concepts came from is not
            >important.
            > > Your comparison to the automobile and the limitation in creativity
            >for a
            > > single pattern testifies to the imagination of the railroads and
            > > manufacturers in ensuring that there were distinct differences in
            >the
            > > various paint schemes. Imitation is flattery but the individual
            >PR
            > > departments weren't interested in flattering their competitors
            >regionally or
            > > plagiarizing overall. Yes there can still be found similarities
            >in spite of
            > > their differences, but look closer and the differences are seen.
            > >
            > > The roads you listed with the FJ&G regarding the stirping on
            >switchers each
            > > had their own distinctive pattern. MeC and B&M for obvious
            >reasons shared a
            > > design but it was no way like the FJ&G other than it was stripes.
            >Nor was
            > > it like (as opposed to similar) Rutland, CV, NYC, D&H, NYC,NH
            >etc. etc. or
            > > any of them like the other. They were in fact notably different
            >from one
            > > another. The Pinsley lines had their distinctive paint scheme.
            >Prior to
            > > Pinsley in New England most of the shortlines with a few
            >exceptions were
            > > affiliated with the connecting class one. Berlin Mills, Grafton
            >and Upton,
            > > Aroostook Valley, Fore River, Belfast and Moosehead Lake are the
            >only
            > > independents I can think of off the top of my head - now I'm
            >talking early
            > > diesels and post WW2 - none is like another, even their 44 tonners.
            > >
            > > Just to refresh I took a look at a few NYO&W F units. I don't
            >think they
            > > look very much like the early B&M or MeC Fs, nor do the SW units
            >compare to
            > > the scheme used on the B&M or MeC SWs.
            > >
            > > Several years ago Trains magazine did an extensive article on the
            >designs
            > > applied to early road diesels and while there may well have been a
            >plain
            > > jane off the shelf scheme, I can't recall any road that used it.
            >I am at my
            > > usual disadvantage because all my reference material is at another
            >location
            > > or I would share with you the issue and date. Neither do I have
            >my
            > > Cyclopedias here to reference. The web is too slow to cross
            >reference the
            > > various papint schemes. The roads that used plain jane paint
            >schemes did it
            > > for economy. After a while as budgets tightened it was better to
            >cut the
            > > fancy paint designs and put the money to more important projects.
            > >
            > > I would not be surprised if those color schemes and designs were
            >reserved to
            > > the individual carriers.
            > >
            > > I'll look closer too.
            > >
            > > PKL
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@y...>
            > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
            > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
            > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
            > > >Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:09:43 -0000
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >All true. However, the loco builders did inded have standard paint
            > > >arrangements. The individual buyers could specify their own
            >scheme,
            > > >have the builder design a scheme for them, or (probably at a
            > > >significant cost savings, liken it to buying a new Ford in
            >standard
            > > >white or having it custom-painted metallic purple with a white
            >racing
            > > >stripe)choose a standard scheme and just specify the colors. It
            >is no
            > > >coincidence that Alco roadswitchers with V-nose stripes were so
            > > >common (D&H, Soo, Rutland, etc.), GE and Alco switchers with
            > > >horizontal stripes wrapping around onto the hood sides were even
            >more
            > > >so (B&M, MEC, FJ&G, and a horde of shortlines with absolutely no
            > > >connections), EMD Fs of numerous roads wore the classic B&M paint
            > > >arrangement adapted to their own colors, NYO&W F-units and Quebec,
            > > >North Shore,& Labrador GP-9s were painted identically except for
            >the
            > > >roadname, etc. Certainly some roads created their very own
            >striping
            > > >schemes, but at some point in time some of the basic arrangements
            >did
            > > >become standard offering from the builders. Probably the
            >variations
            > > >in the schemes can be attributed in some cases to embellishments
            >or
            > > >modifications requested by the railroads, or because the railroads
            > > >began to apply the standard builder schemes to other units
            > > >themselves, and probably many of the standard builder schemes
            >became
            > > >standard only after the scheme was designed for a specific
            >customer
            > > >(for example, the B&M maroon w/yellow stripe schem I *believe* was
            > > >originally designed for the B&M, and EMD would have already had
            >the
            > > >artwork, stencials, etc. so it would then make sense to offer that
            > > >paint layout as a stadard scheme to any other railroad who wanted
            >it
            > > >adapted to their own colors. I'm not arguing here, just making the
            > > >point that at some level the similarities of all these schemes
            >does
            > > >tie back to standard offerings from the diesel builders,
            >regardless
            > > >of the precise way in which the schemes came to be in the first
            >place.
            > > >
            > > >Mark
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
            > > >wrote:
            > > > > Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a
            > > >resolution to an
            > > > > industry safety issue, visibility. That design, if I recall
            > > >correctly, or
            > > > > rather the concept of stripes on the nose, was decided by one
            >of
            > > >the various
            > > > > rr committes and applied by the individual railroad at their
            > > >discretion.
            > > > > The similarity results from the same conditions that created
            >the
            > > >color FJ&G
            > > > > painted their trolleys. Those colors were agreed upon by some
            > > >comittee of
            > > > > traction owners to provide increased visibility etc. Hence the
            > > >name
            > > > > traction orange.
            > > > >
            > > > > The stripes were not all alike but were nevertheless
            >alternating
            > > >colors -
            > > > > Rutland had their own variation and I'm ceratin we can all
            >think of
            > > >other
            > > > > roads. I believe GMD had artists who worked with their
            >customers
            > > >to design
            > > > > individual designs for the early road diesels. Can only
            >believe
            > > >that ALCo
            > > > > had employees who did the same.
            > > > >
            > > > > PKL
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > >From: "Walt Danylak" <waltdanylak@c...>
            > > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
            > > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
            > > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
            > > > > >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:35:10 -0000
            > > > > >
            > > > > >While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint
            >scheme, the
            > > > > >FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE from
            >the
            > > > > >W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville
            >is was
            > > > > >still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.
            > > > > >
            > > > > >Walt
            > > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            >_________________________________________________________________
            > > > > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN
            > > >Sports by
            > > > > ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
            > > >
            > >
            > > _________________________________________________________________
            > > Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is
            >protected and
            > > safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp
            >

            _________________________________________________________________
            FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar � get it now!
            http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
          • Gino DiCarlo
            That s not arguing, that s called discussing and that s what this list is for! I m glad I started this and it s entertaining to me!!!! Keep it up! Gino ...
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 2, 2004
              That's not arguing, that's called discussing and that's what this list
              is for!
              I'm glad I started this and it's entertaining to me!!!! Keep it up!

              Gino

              On Apr 1, 2004, at 9:49 PM, Mark wrote:

              >
              > This is getting a little bit out of hand, it seems like we are
              > arguing over petty points. Yes, each railroad had complete freedom
              > to have it's locomtives painted however they wanted. But many did
              > take advantage of the paint layouts available as standard designs
              > from the builder. Likewise, many did not. Now if we are going to get
              > into the nitty gritty, we'll line up a B&M F7a and a Lehigh Valley
              > F7a. To your argument, it seems you'd say they're different schemes
              > because one says B&M, has a minuteman on the nose, has large road
              > numbers painted on the side of the body, the lettering font is
              > Gothic, has a maroon body with yellow stripes, etc. while the other
              > has a red body, black stripes, says LV in Roman lettering, has a
              > flag on the nose, etc. To my argument, the paint layout for both
              > schemes, with the exception of heralds, lettering, and the colors
              > used, is in fact identical, as is so because EMD offered said paint
              > arrangement to any customer that wanted it. Not everyone wanted it,
              > but anyone that wanted it could have it, and EMD already had the
              > stencil masters on hadn to do it. So if they had chose, NYC and
              > Bangor & Aroostook F-units could have also worn the exact same EMD
              > scheme, but they chose not to. To take it a step farther, the
              > Louisiana & North West RR in the deep south had switchers painted
              > exactly like a maroon B&M EMD switcher, which was the same scheme as
              > was applied to B&M Fs (please dont' tell me those are two distinct
              > schemes as well...)- even the colors were the same! The reason is
              > because somewhere in the ordering process EMD said "here's a paint
              > scheme for your engine? Do you like it?" In that case, the L&NW said
              > the EMD scheme was fine, but they could just as well have come up
              > with their own, told EMD to come up with a different one, or
              > embellished upon it. But they didn't.
              >
              > Now, as for another example, closer to "home"- if you line up a B&M
              > Alco-ge S-3 and an FJ&G Alco-GE S-2, the colors are different, the
              > names are different, the FJ&G unit has a blck hood top separated by
              > a yellow pisntripe while the hood top of the B&M unit is the same
              > color as the sides and there is no pinstripe, and the nose stripes
              > are inverted and angled at their terminii instead of curved, but
              > other than that they are the same. Slightly different, but not much,
              > and no coincidence either. FJ&G's 44 tonner was painted the same as
              > the Alcos (at least for all practical purposes), meaning that even
              > though the RR painted it and not Alco-GE it also wore an
              > embellishment of the Alco-GE scheme. ALso, if one were to line up a
              > B&W photo of an L&BR 44 tonner and the Grafton & Upton 44 tonner in
              > their original schemes, the only visible differences would be the
              > frame stripe on the L&BR unit, the width of the stripe that runs
              > around the aupper part of the carbody, and the roadnames. This sin't
              > because one RR copied the other or because they just happened to
              > choose a virtually identical paint layout, it is because GE used
              > their standard paint layout on both railroads units. Not a
              > coincidence.
              >
              > And that is all I will say on this topic lest we begin to strike a
              > deceased equine.
              >
              > Mark
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
              > wrote:
              > > The paint schemes used on locomotives were for the most part
              > determined by
              > > the individual railroads.  Where the concepts came from is not
              > important. 
              > > Your comparison to the automobile and the limitation in creativity
              > for a
              > > single pattern testifies to the imagination of the railroads and
              > > manufacturers in ensuring that there were distinct differences in
              > the
              > > various paint schemes.  Imitation is flattery but the individual
              > PR
              > > departments weren't interested in flattering their competitors
              > regionally or
              > > plagiarizing overall.  Yes there can still be found similarities
              > in spite of
              > > their differences, but look closer and the differences are seen.
              > >
              > > The roads you listed with the FJ&G regarding the stirping on
              > switchers each
              > > had their own distinctive pattern.  MeC and B&M for obvious
              > reasons shared a
              > > design but it was no way like the FJ&G other than it was stripes. 
              > Nor was
              > > it like (as opposed to similar)  Rutland, CV, NYC, D&H, NYC,NH
              > etc. etc. or
              > > any of them like the other.  They were in fact notably different
              > from one
              > > another.   The Pinsley lines had their distinctive paint scheme. 
              > Prior to
              > > Pinsley in New England most of the shortlines with a few
              > exceptions were
              > > affiliated with the connecting class one.  Berlin Mills, Grafton
              > and Upton,
              > > Aroostook Valley, Fore River, Belfast and Moosehead Lake are the
              > only
              > > independents I can think of off the top of my head - now I'm
              > talking early
              > > diesels and post WW2 - none is like another, even their 44 tonners.
              > >
              > > Just to refresh I took a look at a few NYO&W F units.  I don't
              > think they
              > > look very much like the early B&M or MeC Fs, nor do the SW units
              > compare to
              > > the scheme used on the B&M or MeC SWs.
              > >
              > > Several years ago Trains magazine did an extensive article on the
              > designs
              > > applied to early road diesels and while there may well have been a
              > plain
              > > jane off the shelf scheme, I can't recall any road that used it. 
              > I am at my
              > > usual disadvantage because all my reference material is at another
              > location
              > > or I would share with you the issue and date.  Neither do I have
              > my
              > > Cyclopedias here to reference.  The web is too slow to cross
              > reference the
              > > various papint schemes.  The roads that used plain jane paint
              > schemes did it
              > > for economy.  After a while as budgets tightened it was better to
              > cut the
              > > fancy paint designs and put the money to more important projects.
              > >
              > > I would not be surprised if those color schemes and designs were
              > reserved to
              > > the individual carriers.
              > >
              > > I'll look closer too.
              > >
              > > PKL
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@y...>
              > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
              > > >Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:09:43 -0000
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >All true. However, the loco builders did inded have standard paint
              > > >arrangements. The individual buyers could specify their own
              > scheme,
              > > >have the builder design a scheme for them, or (probably at a
              > > >significant cost savings, liken it to buying a new Ford in
              > standard
              > > >white or having it custom-painted metallic purple with a white
              > racing
              > > >stripe)choose a standard scheme and just specify the colors. It
              > is no
              > > >coincidence that Alco roadswitchers with V-nose stripes were so
              > > >common (D&H, Soo, Rutland, etc.), GE and Alco switchers with
              > > >horizontal stripes wrapping around onto the hood sides were even
              > more
              > > >so (B&M, MEC, FJ&G, and a horde of shortlines with absolutely no
              > > >connections), EMD Fs of numerous roads wore the classic B&M paint
              > > >arrangement adapted to their own colors, NYO&W F-units and Quebec,
              > > >North Shore,& Labrador GP-9s were painted identically except for
              > the
              > > >roadname, etc. Certainly some roads created their very own
              > striping
              > > >schemes, but at some point in time some of the basic arrangements
              > did
              > > >become standard offering from the builders. Probably the
              > variations
              > > >in the schemes can be attributed in some cases to embellishments
              > or
              > > >modifications requested by the railroads, or because the railroads
              > > >began to apply the standard builder schemes to other units
              > > >themselves, and probably many of the standard builder schemes
              > became
              > > >standard only after the scheme was designed for a specific
              > customer
              > > >(for example, the B&M maroon w/yellow stripe schem I *believe* was
              > > >originally designed for the B&M, and EMD would have already had
              > the
              > > >artwork, stencials, etc. so it would then make sense to offer that
              > > >paint layout as a stadard scheme to any other railroad who wanted
              > it
              > > >adapted to their own colors. I'm not arguing here, just making the
              > > >point that at some level the similarities of all these schemes
              > does
              > > >tie back to standard offerings from the diesel builders,
              > regardless
              > > >of the precise way in which the schemes came to be in the first
              > place.
              > > >
              > > >Mark
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
              > > >wrote:
              > > > > Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a
              > > >resolution to an
              > > > > industry safety issue, visibility.  That design, if I recall
              > > >correctly, or
              > > > > rather the concept of stripes on the nose, was decided by one
              > of
              > > >the various
              > > > > rr committes and applied by the individual railroad at their
              > > >discretion.
              > > > > The similarity results from the same conditions that created
              > the
              > > >color FJ&G
              > > > > painted their trolleys.  Those colors were agreed upon by some
              > > >comittee of
              > > > > traction owners to provide increased visibility etc.  Hence the
              > > >name
              > > > > traction orange.
              > > > >
              > > > > The stripes were not all alike but were nevertheless
              > alternating
              > > >colors -
              > > > > Rutland had their own variation and I'm ceratin we can all
              > think of
              > > >other
              > > > > roads.  I believe GMD had artists who worked with their
              > customers
              > > >to design
              > > > > individual designs for the early road diesels.   Can only
              > believe
              > > >that ALCo
              > > > > had employees who did the same.
              > > > >
              > > > > PKL
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > >From: "Walt Danylak" <waltdanylak@c...>
              > > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              > > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
              > > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
              > > > > >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:35:10 -0000
              > > > > >
              > > > > >While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint
              > scheme, the
              > > > > >FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE from
              > the
              > > > > >W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville
              > is was
              > > > > >still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.
              > > > > >
              > > > > >Walt
              > > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > _________________________________________________________________
              > > > > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at MSN
              > > >Sports by
              > > > > ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
              > > >
              > >
              > > _________________________________________________________________
              > > Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is
              > protected and
              > > safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp
              >
              >
              >
              > Visit Gino's Railpage at
              > http://www.ginosrailpage.com
              > Visit The Greater Capital District Railfan Assocation at
              > http://gcdranet.homelinux.com/
              > Visit Pete Seftons Lost Landmark Page
              > http://www.lostlandmarks.org
              > Visit The NERAIL North American Photo Archive at
              > http://naphotos.nerail.org/
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > • To visit your group on the web, go to:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FJGRailroad/
              >  
              > • To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > FJGRailroad-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >  
              > • Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              > Service.
              >
              >
              Visit Gino's Railpage at
              http://www.ginosrailpage.com
            • Mark
              ... cowl units. ... green and ... 3s and the ... I ... surprised ... They had a simialr scheme but isntead of pinstripes it was one broad yellow (dulux gold)
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 2, 2004
                --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                wrote:
                > Yes I see B&M and LV shared the same pattern on some of the LV
                cowl units.
                > B&M and MeC used the pattern on all F's and E's in both Dartmouth
                green and
                > Harvard crimson and on all their hood units too; even the Alco RS-
                3s and the
                > MeC RS-11s 801 and 802 were painted in the same pattern when new.
                I
                > couldn't find here any pics of the BL2s when new but wouldn't be
                surprised
                > if they had it too.

                They had a simialr scheme but isntead of pinstripes it was one broad
                yellow (dulux gold) stripe.

                The point here is that the scheme originated with the EMD F's and was
                adopted as standard by the B&M for all road units. Whether the scheme
                (i.e., paint layout) was designed specifically for the B&M or was
                already on paper at EMD I don't know for sure, but I do believe B&M
                was the first of many users of this paint layout.

                I think the only new units that didn't have that three
                > stripe with one along the base pattern on B&M and MeC were the Alco
                > switchers and the A cabs (44 tonners).

                As well as the E's and many of the EMD switchers which got the black
                switcher scheme.


                >
                > Did LV also apply the pattern to their other early diesel road
                units both
                > Alco and EMD or only that group? Was their color Cornell red?

                Most LV units in the 40s-60s wore Cornell red w/ black stripes in the
                B&M-style scheme. This includes EMD F's , ALco FAs, ALso RS-2s and
                switchers, Baldwin switchers, EMD switchers, etc. Pre-F unit diesels
                wore either very simple schemes or on EMD switchers, an odd maroon
                and grey with a yellow stripe scheme -which was also a standard
                EMD/EMC paint layout- which appeared on several other road's early
                (SW, SC, SW-1, NW-2, etc.) units as well, in various colors, and
                would appear to be an adaptation of the EMD/EMC demonstrator scheme
                that was applied to said early switcher demo units. Once the EMD F's
                came along that became the standard paint scheme.

                >
                > Now this has gone a long way from the uniqueness of the FJ&G's
                paint
                > pattern, which were different from each other in ways only a
                modeler would
                > notice.

                I am a modeler, and I would say that in terms of paint arrangement,
                disregarding colors, lettering, and a few minor embellishemnts or
                deletions, the B&M siwtcher scheme, the FJ&G scheme, the L&BR and G&U
                44 tonners, and a host of other units, are painted in about the same
                layout. Perhaps one needs to think not as a modeller who needs a
                different decal set for each scheme, but as the Alco-GE man who drew
                up the schemes on paper or laid out the stencils and masking for
                painting to realize that any of those schemes would be pretty
                repetitive with the exceptions of things like colors used, lettering
                of course, stripe width, addition or subtartion of a second body
                color and a separating stripe, etc.

                Line up a D&H RS-3 in black w/ yellow stripes and a SOO RS-1 in black
                with yellow stripes and an Alco demontsrator in green w/ yellow
                stripes,and Lake Erie, Franklin & Clarion RS-1 in black w/yellow
                stripes and a Chestnut Ridge Ry. S-2 in blackw/yellow stripes and a
                horde of industry,or shortline-owned Alco switchers in black or green
                w/ yellow stripes, and once again you'd see the only differences in
                the job the painter (or artist who drew them up) was doing involved
                colors, lettering, and in a few cases the width of the stripes and
                the addition or deletion of a horizontal yellow pinstripe running
                around the upper hood. You'll also notice how most of the schemes I
                mentioned above use black and yellow, so here we're talking about a
                mass of units for a variety of customers, all painted in the same
                layout as the Alco demonstrators with only very slight variations,
                and usually painted black and yellow too! If that does not constitute
                a standard paint scheme offered by a builder, I don't know what does!
                The buyers could of course choose not to accept it (i.e., instead of
                Henry Ford's "any color you like as long as it's black" quote
                regarding the Model T, Alco's was more like "any paint scheme you
                want as long as it's black with yellow end stripes, unless you want
                us to change the colors for you, or if you REALLy want to we can do
                something completely different.")

                I figured I'd add a little more since we are "discussing" and
                not "arguing"!

                Mark


                >
                > >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@y...>
                > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                > >Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 02:49:40 -0000
                > >
                > >
                > >This is getting a little bit out of hand, it seems like we are
                > >arguing over petty points. Yes, each railroad had complete freedom
                > >to have it's locomtives painted however they wanted. But many did
                > >take advantage of the paint layouts available as standard designs
                > >from the builder. Likewise, many did not. Now if we are going to
                get
                > >into the nitty gritty, we'll line up a B&M F7a and a Lehigh Valley
                > >F7a. To your argument, it seems you'd say they're different schemes
                > >because one says B&M, has a minuteman on the nose, has large road
                > >numbers painted on the side of the body, the lettering font is
                > >Gothic, has a maroon body with yellow stripes, etc. while the other
                > >has a red body, black stripes, says LV in Roman lettering, has a
                > >flag on the nose, etc. To my argument, the paint layout for both
                > >schemes, with the exception of heralds, lettering, and the colors
                > >used, is in fact identical, as is so because EMD offered said paint
                > >arrangement to any customer that wanted it. Not everyone wanted it,
                > >but anyone that wanted it could have it, and EMD already had the
                > >stencil masters on hadn to do it. So if they had chose, NYC and
                > >Bangor & Aroostook F-units could have also worn the exact same EMD
                > >scheme, but they chose not to. To take it a step farther, the
                > >Louisiana & North West RR in the deep south had switchers painted
                > >exactly like a maroon B&M EMD switcher, which was the same scheme
                as
                > >was applied to B&M Fs (please dont' tell me those are two distinct
                > >schemes as well...)- even the colors were the same! The reason is
                > >because somewhere in the ordering process EMD said "here's a paint
                > >scheme for your engine? Do you like it?" In that case, the L&NW
                said
                > >the EMD scheme was fine, but they could just as well have come up
                > >with their own, told EMD to come up with a different one, or
                > >embellished upon it. But they didn't.
                > >
                > >Now, as for another example, closer to "home"- if you line up a B&M
                > >Alco-ge S-3 and an FJ&G Alco-GE S-2, the colors are different, the
                > >names are different, the FJ&G unit has a blck hood top separated by
                > >a yellow pisntripe while the hood top of the B&M unit is the same
                > >color as the sides and there is no pinstripe, and the nose stripes
                > >are inverted and angled at their terminii instead of curved, but
                > >other than that they are the same. Slightly different, but not
                much,
                > >and no coincidence either. FJ&G's 44 tonner was painted the same as
                > >the Alcos (at least for all practical purposes), meaning that even
                > >though the RR painted it and not Alco-GE it also wore an
                > >embellishment of the Alco-GE scheme. ALso, if one were to line up a
                > >B&W photo of an L&BR 44 tonner and the Grafton & Upton 44 tonner in
                > >their original schemes, the only visible differences would be the
                > >frame stripe on the L&BR unit, the width of the stripe that runs
                > >around the aupper part of the carbody, and the roadnames. This
                sin't
                > >because one RR copied the other or because they just happened to
                > >choose a virtually identical paint layout, it is because GE used
                > >their standard paint layout on both railroads units. Not a
                > >coincidence.
                > >
                > >And that is all I will say on this topic lest we begin to strike a
                > >deceased equine.
                > >
                > >Mark
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                > >wrote:
                > > > The paint schemes used on locomotives were for the most part
                > >determined by
                > > > the individual railroads. Where the concepts came from is not
                > >important.
                > > > Your comparison to the automobile and the limitation in
                creativity
                > >for a
                > > > single pattern testifies to the imagination of the railroads and
                > > > manufacturers in ensuring that there were distinct differences
                in
                > >the
                > > > various paint schemes. Imitation is flattery but the individual
                > >PR
                > > > departments weren't interested in flattering their competitors
                > >regionally or
                > > > plagiarizing overall. Yes there can still be found similarities
                > >in spite of
                > > > their differences, but look closer and the differences are seen.
                > > >
                > > > The roads you listed with the FJ&G regarding the stirping on
                > >switchers each
                > > > had their own distinctive pattern. MeC and B&M for obvious
                > >reasons shared a
                > > > design but it was no way like the FJ&G other than it was
                stripes.
                > >Nor was
                > > > it like (as opposed to similar) Rutland, CV, NYC, D&H, NYC,NH
                > >etc. etc. or
                > > > any of them like the other. They were in fact notably different
                > >from one
                > > > another. The Pinsley lines had their distinctive paint scheme.
                > >Prior to
                > > > Pinsley in New England most of the shortlines with a few
                > >exceptions were
                > > > affiliated with the connecting class one. Berlin Mills, Grafton
                > >and Upton,
                > > > Aroostook Valley, Fore River, Belfast and Moosehead Lake are the
                > >only
                > > > independents I can think of off the top of my head - now I'm
                > >talking early
                > > > diesels and post WW2 - none is like another, even their 44
                tonners.
                > > >
                > > > Just to refresh I took a look at a few NYO&W F units. I don't
                > >think they
                > > > look very much like the early B&M or MeC Fs, nor do the SW units
                > >compare to
                > > > the scheme used on the B&M or MeC SWs.
                > > >
                > > > Several years ago Trains magazine did an extensive article on
                the
                > >designs
                > > > applied to early road diesels and while there may well have
                been a
                > >plain
                > > > jane off the shelf scheme, I can't recall any road that used it.
                > >I am at my
                > > > usual disadvantage because all my reference material is at
                another
                > >location
                > > > or I would share with you the issue and date. Neither do I have
                > >my
                > > > Cyclopedias here to reference. The web is too slow to cross
                > >reference the
                > > > various papint schemes. The roads that used plain jane paint
                > >schemes did it
                > > > for economy. After a while as budgets tightened it was better
                to
                > >cut the
                > > > fancy paint designs and put the money to more important
                projects.
                > > >
                > > > I would not be surprised if those color schemes and designs were
                > >reserved to
                > > > the individual carriers.
                > > >
                > > > I'll look closer too.
                > > >
                > > > PKL
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@y...>
                > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                > > > >Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:09:43 -0000
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >All true. However, the loco builders did inded have standard
                paint
                > > > >arrangements. The individual buyers could specify their own
                > >scheme,
                > > > >have the builder design a scheme for them, or (probably at a
                > > > >significant cost savings, liken it to buying a new Ford in
                > >standard
                > > > >white or having it custom-painted metallic purple with a white
                > >racing
                > > > >stripe)choose a standard scheme and just specify the colors. It
                > >is no
                > > > >coincidence that Alco roadswitchers with V-nose stripes were so
                > > > >common (D&H, Soo, Rutland, etc.), GE and Alco switchers with
                > > > >horizontal stripes wrapping around onto the hood sides were
                even
                > >more
                > > > >so (B&M, MEC, FJ&G, and a horde of shortlines with absolutely
                no
                > > > >connections), EMD Fs of numerous roads wore the classic B&M
                paint
                > > > >arrangement adapted to their own colors, NYO&W F-units and
                Quebec,
                > > > >North Shore,& Labrador GP-9s were painted identically except
                for
                > >the
                > > > >roadname, etc. Certainly some roads created their very own
                > >striping
                > > > >schemes, but at some point in time some of the basic
                arrangements
                > >did
                > > > >become standard offering from the builders. Probably the
                > >variations
                > > > >in the schemes can be attributed in some cases to
                embellishments
                > >or
                > > > >modifications requested by the railroads, or because the
                railroads
                > > > >began to apply the standard builder schemes to other units
                > > > >themselves, and probably many of the standard builder schemes
                > >became
                > > > >standard only after the scheme was designed for a specific
                > >customer
                > > > >(for example, the B&M maroon w/yellow stripe schem I *believe*
                was
                > > > >originally designed for the B&M, and EMD would have already had
                > >the
                > > > >artwork, stencials, etc. so it would then make sense to offer
                that
                > > > >paint layout as a stadard scheme to any other railroad who
                wanted
                > >it
                > > > >adapted to their own colors. I'm not arguing here, just making
                the
                > > > >point that at some level the similarities of all these schemes
                > >does
                > > > >tie back to standard offerings from the diesel builders,
                > >regardless
                > > > >of the precise way in which the schemes came to be in the first
                > >place.
                > > > >
                > > > >Mark
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner"
                <pklarner@h...>
                > > > >wrote:
                > > > > > Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a
                > > > >resolution to an
                > > > > > industry safety issue, visibility. That design, if I recall
                > > > >correctly, or
                > > > > > rather the concept of stripes on the nose, was decided by
                one
                > >of
                > > > >the various
                > > > > > rr committes and applied by the individual railroad at their
                > > > >discretion.
                > > > > > The similarity results from the same conditions that created
                > >the
                > > > >color FJ&G
                > > > > > painted their trolleys. Those colors were agreed upon by
                some
                > > > >comittee of
                > > > > > traction owners to provide increased visibility etc. Hence
                the
                > > > >name
                > > > > > traction orange.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > The stripes were not all alike but were nevertheless
                > >alternating
                > > > >colors -
                > > > > > Rutland had their own variation and I'm ceratin we can all
                > >think of
                > > > >other
                > > > > > roads. I believe GMD had artists who worked with their
                > >customers
                > > > >to design
                > > > > > individual designs for the early road diesels. Can only
                > >believe
                > > > >that ALCo
                > > > > > had employees who did the same.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > PKL
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > > >From: "Walt Danylak" <waltdanylak@c...>
                > > > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                > > > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                > > > > > >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:35:10 -0000
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint
                > >scheme, the
                > > > > > >FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE
                from
                > >the
                > > > > > >W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville
                > >is was
                > > > > > >still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.
                > > > > > >
                > > > > > >Walt
                > > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > >_________________________________________________________________
                > > > > > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at
                MSN
                > > > >Sports by
                > > > > > ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                _________________________________________________________________
                > > > Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is
                > >protected and
                > > > safe. http://specials.msn.com/msn/security.asp
                > >
                >
                > _________________________________________________________________
                > FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now!
                > http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
              • paul larner
                I went back to my first missive seeing that this discussion flowed from my statement that the nose stripe design evolved from a recommendation of a railroad
                Message 7 of 18 , Apr 2, 2004
                  I went back to my first missive seeing that this discussion flowed from my
                  statement that the nose stripe design evolved from a recommendation of a
                  railroad management association answering a call for improved visibility for
                  diesels and gas cars. That was my initial position as opposed to the design
                  being created or evolving among the manufacturers; I stand with that
                  "belief" (because I am not at home with my reference material).

                  I'll be north next week and try to recall to dig into the why, who and when
                  of that recommendation.

                  Considering the basic shape of the diesel locomotive, it is amazing how many
                  design variations were created while maintaining fluidity with the passenger
                  train. Have any outclassed the designs created for the passenger locomotive
                  fleets initially and for those installed as the railroads developed their
                  modern fleets following WW2?

                  PKL


                  >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@...>
                  >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                  >Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 15:37:32 -0000
                  >
                  >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                  >wrote:
                  > > Yes I see B&M and LV shared the same pattern on some of the LV
                  >cowl units.
                  > > B&M and MeC used the pattern on all F's and E's in both Dartmouth
                  >green and
                  > > Harvard crimson and on all their hood units too; even the Alco RS-
                  >3s and the
                  > > MeC RS-11s 801 and 802 were painted in the same pattern when new.
                  >I
                  > > couldn't find here any pics of the BL2s when new but wouldn't be
                  >surprised
                  > > if they had it too.
                  >
                  >They had a simialr scheme but isntead of pinstripes it was one broad
                  >yellow (dulux gold) stripe.
                  >
                  >The point here is that the scheme originated with the EMD F's and was
                  >adopted as standard by the B&M for all road units. Whether the scheme
                  >(i.e., paint layout) was designed specifically for the B&M or was
                  >already on paper at EMD I don't know for sure, but I do believe B&M
                  >was the first of many users of this paint layout.
                  >
                  >I think the only new units that didn't have that three
                  > > stripe with one along the base pattern on B&M and MeC were the Alco
                  > > switchers and the A cabs (44 tonners).
                  >
                  >As well as the E's and many of the EMD switchers which got the black
                  >switcher scheme.
                  >
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Did LV also apply the pattern to their other early diesel road
                  >units both
                  > > Alco and EMD or only that group? Was their color Cornell red?
                  >
                  >Most LV units in the 40s-60s wore Cornell red w/ black stripes in the
                  >B&M-style scheme. This includes EMD F's , ALco FAs, ALso RS-2s and
                  >switchers, Baldwin switchers, EMD switchers, etc. Pre-F unit diesels
                  >wore either very simple schemes or on EMD switchers, an odd maroon
                  >and grey with a yellow stripe scheme -which was also a standard
                  >EMD/EMC paint layout- which appeared on several other road's early
                  >(SW, SC, SW-1, NW-2, etc.) units as well, in various colors, and
                  >would appear to be an adaptation of the EMD/EMC demonstrator scheme
                  >that was applied to said early switcher demo units. Once the EMD F's
                  >came along that became the standard paint scheme.
                  >
                  > >
                  > > Now this has gone a long way from the uniqueness of the FJ&G's
                  >paint
                  > > pattern, which were different from each other in ways only a
                  >modeler would
                  > > notice.
                  >
                  >I am a modeler, and I would say that in terms of paint arrangement,
                  >disregarding colors, lettering, and a few minor embellishemnts or
                  >deletions, the B&M siwtcher scheme, the FJ&G scheme, the L&BR and G&U
                  >44 tonners, and a host of other units, are painted in about the same
                  >layout. Perhaps one needs to think not as a modeller who needs a
                  >different decal set for each scheme, but as the Alco-GE man who drew
                  >up the schemes on paper or laid out the stencils and masking for
                  >painting to realize that any of those schemes would be pretty
                  >repetitive with the exceptions of things like colors used, lettering
                  >of course, stripe width, addition or subtartion of a second body
                  >color and a separating stripe, etc.
                  >
                  >Line up a D&H RS-3 in black w/ yellow stripes and a SOO RS-1 in black
                  >with yellow stripes and an Alco demontsrator in green w/ yellow
                  >stripes,and Lake Erie, Franklin & Clarion RS-1 in black w/yellow
                  >stripes and a Chestnut Ridge Ry. S-2 in blackw/yellow stripes and a
                  >horde of industry,or shortline-owned Alco switchers in black or green
                  >w/ yellow stripes, and once again you'd see the only differences in
                  >the job the painter (or artist who drew them up) was doing involved
                  >colors, lettering, and in a few cases the width of the stripes and
                  >the addition or deletion of a horizontal yellow pinstripe running
                  >around the upper hood. You'll also notice how most of the schemes I
                  >mentioned above use black and yellow, so here we're talking about a
                  >mass of units for a variety of customers, all painted in the same
                  >layout as the Alco demonstrators with only very slight variations,
                  >and usually painted black and yellow too! If that does not constitute
                  >a standard paint scheme offered by a builder, I don't know what does!
                  >The buyers could of course choose not to accept it (i.e., instead of
                  >Henry Ford's "any color you like as long as it's black" quote
                  >regarding the Model T, Alco's was more like "any paint scheme you
                  >want as long as it's black with yellow end stripes, unless you want
                  >us to change the colors for you, or if you REALLy want to we can do
                  >something completely different.")
                  >
                  >I figured I'd add a little more since we are "discussing" and
                  >not "arguing"!
                  >
                  >Mark
                  >
                  >
                  > >
                  > > >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@y...>
                  > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                  > > >Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2004 02:49:40 -0000
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >This is getting a little bit out of hand, it seems like we are
                  > > >arguing over petty points. Yes, each railroad had complete freedom
                  > > >to have it's locomtives painted however they wanted. But many did
                  > > >take advantage of the paint layouts available as standard designs
                  > > >from the builder. Likewise, many did not. Now if we are going to
                  >get
                  > > >into the nitty gritty, we'll line up a B&M F7a and a Lehigh Valley
                  > > >F7a. To your argument, it seems you'd say they're different schemes
                  > > >because one says B&M, has a minuteman on the nose, has large road
                  > > >numbers painted on the side of the body, the lettering font is
                  > > >Gothic, has a maroon body with yellow stripes, etc. while the other
                  > > >has a red body, black stripes, says LV in Roman lettering, has a
                  > > >flag on the nose, etc. To my argument, the paint layout for both
                  > > >schemes, with the exception of heralds, lettering, and the colors
                  > > >used, is in fact identical, as is so because EMD offered said paint
                  > > >arrangement to any customer that wanted it. Not everyone wanted it,
                  > > >but anyone that wanted it could have it, and EMD already had the
                  > > >stencil masters on hadn to do it. So if they had chose, NYC and
                  > > >Bangor & Aroostook F-units could have also worn the exact same EMD
                  > > >scheme, but they chose not to. To take it a step farther, the
                  > > >Louisiana & North West RR in the deep south had switchers painted
                  > > >exactly like a maroon B&M EMD switcher, which was the same scheme
                  >as
                  > > >was applied to B&M Fs (please dont' tell me those are two distinct
                  > > >schemes as well...)- even the colors were the same! The reason is
                  > > >because somewhere in the ordering process EMD said "here's a paint
                  > > >scheme for your engine? Do you like it?" In that case, the L&NW
                  >said
                  > > >the EMD scheme was fine, but they could just as well have come up
                  > > >with their own, told EMD to come up with a different one, or
                  > > >embellished upon it. But they didn't.
                  > > >
                  > > >Now, as for another example, closer to "home"- if you line up a B&M
                  > > >Alco-ge S-3 and an FJ&G Alco-GE S-2, the colors are different, the
                  > > >names are different, the FJ&G unit has a blck hood top separated by
                  > > >a yellow pisntripe while the hood top of the B&M unit is the same
                  > > >color as the sides and there is no pinstripe, and the nose stripes
                  > > >are inverted and angled at their terminii instead of curved, but
                  > > >other than that they are the same. Slightly different, but not
                  >much,
                  > > >and no coincidence either. FJ&G's 44 tonner was painted the same as
                  > > >the Alcos (at least for all practical purposes), meaning that even
                  > > >though the RR painted it and not Alco-GE it also wore an
                  > > >embellishment of the Alco-GE scheme. ALso, if one were to line up a
                  > > >B&W photo of an L&BR 44 tonner and the Grafton & Upton 44 tonner in
                  > > >their original schemes, the only visible differences would be the
                  > > >frame stripe on the L&BR unit, the width of the stripe that runs
                  > > >around the aupper part of the carbody, and the roadnames. This
                  >sin't
                  > > >because one RR copied the other or because they just happened to
                  > > >choose a virtually identical paint layout, it is because GE used
                  > > >their standard paint layout on both railroads units. Not a
                  > > >coincidence.
                  > > >
                  > > >And that is all I will say on this topic lest we begin to strike a
                  > > >deceased equine.
                  > > >
                  > > >Mark
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                  > > >wrote:
                  > > > > The paint schemes used on locomotives were for the most part
                  > > >determined by
                  > > > > the individual railroads. Where the concepts came from is not
                  > > >important.
                  > > > > Your comparison to the automobile and the limitation in
                  >creativity
                  > > >for a
                  > > > > single pattern testifies to the imagination of the railroads and
                  > > > > manufacturers in ensuring that there were distinct differences
                  >in
                  > > >the
                  > > > > various paint schemes. Imitation is flattery but the individual
                  > > >PR
                  > > > > departments weren't interested in flattering their competitors
                  > > >regionally or
                  > > > > plagiarizing overall. Yes there can still be found similarities
                  > > >in spite of
                  > > > > their differences, but look closer and the differences are seen.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > The roads you listed with the FJ&G regarding the stirping on
                  > > >switchers each
                  > > > > had their own distinctive pattern. MeC and B&M for obvious
                  > > >reasons shared a
                  > > > > design but it was no way like the FJ&G other than it was
                  >stripes.
                  > > >Nor was
                  > > > > it like (as opposed to similar) Rutland, CV, NYC, D&H, NYC,NH
                  > > >etc. etc. or
                  > > > > any of them like the other. They were in fact notably different
                  > > >from one
                  > > > > another. The Pinsley lines had their distinctive paint scheme.
                  > > >Prior to
                  > > > > Pinsley in New England most of the shortlines with a few
                  > > >exceptions were
                  > > > > affiliated with the connecting class one. Berlin Mills, Grafton
                  > > >and Upton,
                  > > > > Aroostook Valley, Fore River, Belfast and Moosehead Lake are the
                  > > >only
                  > > > > independents I can think of off the top of my head - now I'm
                  > > >talking early
                  > > > > diesels and post WW2 - none is like another, even their 44
                  >tonners.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Just to refresh I took a look at a few NYO&W F units. I don't
                  > > >think they
                  > > > > look very much like the early B&M or MeC Fs, nor do the SW units
                  > > >compare to
                  > > > > the scheme used on the B&M or MeC SWs.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Several years ago Trains magazine did an extensive article on
                  >the
                  > > >designs
                  > > > > applied to early road diesels and while there may well have
                  >been a
                  > > >plain
                  > > > > jane off the shelf scheme, I can't recall any road that used it.
                  > > >I am at my
                  > > > > usual disadvantage because all my reference material is at
                  >another
                  > > >location
                  > > > > or I would share with you the issue and date. Neither do I have
                  > > >my
                  > > > > Cyclopedias here to reference. The web is too slow to cross
                  > > >reference the
                  > > > > various papint schemes. The roads that used plain jane paint
                  > > >schemes did it
                  > > > > for economy. After a while as budgets tightened it was better
                  >to
                  > > >cut the
                  > > > > fancy paint designs and put the money to more important
                  >projects.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I would not be surprised if those color schemes and designs were
                  > > >reserved to
                  > > > > the individual carriers.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I'll look closer too.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > PKL
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > >From: "Mark" <mark_jacob2000@y...>
                  > > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                  > > > > >Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2004 16:09:43 -0000
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >All true. However, the loco builders did inded have standard
                  >paint
                  > > > > >arrangements. The individual buyers could specify their own
                  > > >scheme,
                  > > > > >have the builder design a scheme for them, or (probably at a
                  > > > > >significant cost savings, liken it to buying a new Ford in
                  > > >standard
                  > > > > >white or having it custom-painted metallic purple with a white
                  > > >racing
                  > > > > >stripe)choose a standard scheme and just specify the colors. It
                  > > >is no
                  > > > > >coincidence that Alco roadswitchers with V-nose stripes were so
                  > > > > >common (D&H, Soo, Rutland, etc.), GE and Alco switchers with
                  > > > > >horizontal stripes wrapping around onto the hood sides were
                  >even
                  > > >more
                  > > > > >so (B&M, MEC, FJ&G, and a horde of shortlines with absolutely
                  >no
                  > > > > >connections), EMD Fs of numerous roads wore the classic B&M
                  >paint
                  > > > > >arrangement adapted to their own colors, NYO&W F-units and
                  >Quebec,
                  > > > > >North Shore,& Labrador GP-9s were painted identically except
                  >for
                  > > >the
                  > > > > >roadname, etc. Certainly some roads created their very own
                  > > >striping
                  > > > > >schemes, but at some point in time some of the basic
                  >arrangements
                  > > >did
                  > > > > >become standard offering from the builders. Probably the
                  > > >variations
                  > > > > >in the schemes can be attributed in some cases to
                  >embellishments
                  > > >or
                  > > > > >modifications requested by the railroads, or because the
                  >railroads
                  > > > > >began to apply the standard builder schemes to other units
                  > > > > >themselves, and probably many of the standard builder schemes
                  > > >became
                  > > > > >standard only after the scheme was designed for a specific
                  > > >customer
                  > > > > >(for example, the B&M maroon w/yellow stripe schem I *believe*
                  >was
                  > > > > >originally designed for the B&M, and EMD would have already had
                  > > >the
                  > > > > >artwork, stencials, etc. so it would then make sense to offer
                  >that
                  > > > > >paint layout as a stadard scheme to any other railroad who
                  >wanted
                  > > >it
                  > > > > >adapted to their own colors. I'm not arguing here, just making
                  >the
                  > > > > >point that at some level the similarities of all these schemes
                  > > >does
                  > > > > >tie back to standard offerings from the diesel builders,
                  > > >regardless
                  > > > > >of the precise way in which the schemes came to be in the first
                  > > >place.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >Mark
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >--- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner"
                  ><pklarner@h...>
                  > > > > >wrote:
                  > > > > > > Re locomotive paint schemes, the stripes on the nose were a
                  > > > > >resolution to an
                  > > > > > > industry safety issue, visibility. That design, if I recall
                  > > > > >correctly, or
                  > > > > > > rather the concept of stripes on the nose, was decided by
                  >one
                  > > >of
                  > > > > >the various
                  > > > > > > rr committes and applied by the individual railroad at their
                  > > > > >discretion.
                  > > > > > > The similarity results from the same conditions that created
                  > > >the
                  > > > > >color FJ&G
                  > > > > > > painted their trolleys. Those colors were agreed upon by
                  >some
                  > > > > >comittee of
                  > > > > > > traction owners to provide increased visibility etc. Hence
                  >the
                  > > > > >name
                  > > > > > > traction orange.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > The stripes were not all alike but were nevertheless
                  > > >alternating
                  > > > > >colors -
                  > > > > > > Rutland had their own variation and I'm ceratin we can all
                  > > >think of
                  > > > > >other
                  > > > > > > roads. I believe GMD had artists who worked with their
                  > > >customers
                  > > > > >to design
                  > > > > > > individual designs for the early road diesels. Can only
                  > > >believe
                  > > > > >that ALCo
                  > > > > > > had employees who did the same.
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > PKL
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >From: "Walt Danylak" <waltdanylak@c...>
                  > > > > > > >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > > > >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > > > > >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                  > > > > > > >Date: Wed, 31 Mar 2004 02:35:10 -0000
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >While GE may have used this scheme as a standard paint
                  > > >scheme, the
                  > > > > > > >FJ&G repainted #30 not GE. The locomotive was sent to GE
                  >from
                  > > >the
                  > > > > > > >W&OD but was not repainted. When it arrived in Gloversville
                  > > >is was
                  > > > > > > >still painted in the W&OD paint scheme.
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > > >Walt
                  > > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > > > > >
                  > > >_________________________________________________________________
                  > > > > > > All the action. All the drama. Get NCAA hoops coverage at
                  >MSN
                  > > > > >Sports by
                  > > > > > > ESPN. http://msn.espn.go.com/index.html?partnersite=espn
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  >_________________________________________________________________
                  > > > > Check out MSN PC Safety & Security to help ensure your PC is
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                  > >
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                  >

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                • Mark
                  ... from my ... recommendation of a ... visibility for ... the design ... that ... I do not disagree at all with the above, but I do maintain that there were
                  Message 8 of 18 , Apr 2, 2004
                    --- In FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com, "paul larner" <pklarner@h...>
                    wrote:
                    > I went back to my first missive seeing that this discussion flowed
                    from my
                    > statement that the nose stripe design evolved from a
                    recommendation of a
                    > railroad management association answering a call for improved
                    visibility for
                    > diesels and gas cars. That was my initial position as opposed to
                    the design
                    > being created or evolving among the manufacturers; I stand with
                    that
                    > "belief" (because I am not at home with my reference material).

                    I do not disagree at all with the above, but I do maintain that
                    there were specific applications of said "recommendation" that can
                    be attributed to a layout drwan up by the builder and then offered
                    as a standardized design to any customer who wanted it. That is the
                    core of my "argument", that there were in fact paint layouts that
                    were offered "off the shelf" by the builders, and that not all apint
                    schemes were designed by or for a specific railroad, and that the
                    similarities between the early paint schemes of several railroads
                    can be atributed to these standard painting arrangements offered by
                    the builders, not simply "coincidence".

                    Mark
                  • Charles Woolever
                    There was an article in R&R many years ago about all of this. There were EMD drawings of F-units in various paint schemes. The DL&W maroon/gray/yellow was
                    Message 9 of 18 , Apr 5, 2004
                      There was an article in R&R many years ago about all of this. There
                      were EMD drawings of F-units in various paint schemes. The DL&W
                      maroon/gray/yellow was designed by EMD. What was interesting about all
                      of the drawings was seeing other roads in same schemes, like Frisco in
                      the DL&W colors or whatever.

                      Extra2200 South si good for this too. It's all in B&W (older issues)
                      and when you pull out the issues on say the GE 70 ton and see all the
                      roster photos, sans color, you get a good sense on how similar the
                      paint shemes all were to one another. If you didn't know better, you'd
                      think 75% of smaller railroads were all in the same family!

                      Charles
                    • Dicarlo, Gino
                      That s was pretty much what I was wondering Charles. I was making the assumption on B&W photos and just figured there was a standard paint job. When I did
                      Message 10 of 18 , Apr 5, 2004
                        That's was pretty much what I was wondering Charles. I was
                        making the assumption on B&W photos and just figured there was
                        a standard paint job. When I did finally see the colors of the
                        Lowville & Beaver River 44-tonner I realized how different the
                        paint was from the FJ&G...

                        Gino

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: Charles Woolever [mailto:yahoo@...]
                        Sent: Monday, April 05, 2004 3:52 PM
                        To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job


                        Extra2200 South si good for this too. It's all in B&W (older issues)
                        and when you pull out the issues on say the GE 70 ton and see all the
                        roster photos, sans color, you get a good sense on how similar the
                        paint shemes all were to one another. If you didn't know better, you'd
                        think 75% of smaller railroads were all in the same family!

                        Charles
                      • paul larner
                        To see a few (understatement) of the various paint schemes applied to many of the diesel locomotive models offered by all the US builders and perhaps some more
                        Message 11 of 18 , Apr 5, 2004
                          To see a few (understatement) of the various paint schemes applied to many
                          of the diesel locomotive models offered by all the US builders and perhaps
                          some more (there are thousands) do a google search for "engine shop." The
                          first item that comes up on my search is a site titled Engine Shop
                          containing drawings with colors. 44 tonners, 70 tonners, E-6, E-8, F-7,
                          BL-2 they're all there, I haen't looked at ALCo yet. Must be an identical
                          scheme in there some where, you decide. Similar, how could they not be in
                          many ways. Alike, take a look; what can I say. LV and B&M are in there.

                          The url is usloki.tripod.com/ but that doesn't et you there; needs more.
                          The google search gets me there and it can be saved as a favorite.

                          PKL


                          >From: "Charles Woolever" <yahoo@...>
                          >Reply-To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                          >To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job
                          >Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2004 19:51:56 -0000
                          >
                          >There was an article in R&R many years ago about all of this. There
                          >were EMD drawings of F-units in various paint schemes. The DL&W
                          >maroon/gray/yellow was designed by EMD. What was interesting about all
                          >of the drawings was seeing other roads in same schemes, like Frisco in
                          >the DL&W colors or whatever.
                          >
                          >Extra2200 South si good for this too. It's all in B&W (older issues)
                          >and when you pull out the issues on say the GE 70 ton and see all the
                          >roster photos, sans color, you get a good sense on how similar the
                          >paint shemes all were to one another. If you didn't know better, you'd
                          >think 75% of smaller railroads were all in the same family!
                          >
                          >Charles
                          >

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                        • Mark
                          ... the ... you d ... Thank you Charles, at least somebody else sees what I see when they look at all those engines that were painted with most of the same
                          Message 12 of 18 , Apr 6, 2004
                            > and when you pull out the issues on say the GE 70 ton and see all
                            the
                            > roster photos, sans color, you get a good sense on how similar the
                            > paint shemes all were to one another. If you didn't know better,
                            you'd
                            > think 75% of smaller railroads were all in the same family!
                            >
                            > Charles


                            Thank you Charles, at least somebody else sees what I see when they
                            look at all those engines that were painted with most of the same
                            masking and stencils! It seems that what we have here is people
                            getting "blinded" by the different COLORS and getting distracted by
                            the presence or lack of separating stripes, etc. and therefore not
                            seeing that if you took away the pinstripes and separatung stripes,
                            and took the colors away and made everything tones of gray (or even
                            better, line drawings showing nothing more than the separation of the
                            two colors-i.e., the masking lines), the SCHEMES are similar if not
                            in many cases identical.

                            Gino seems to have hit the nail on the head without realizing it when
                            he said he didn't realize HOW DIFFERENT the L&BR and FJ&G schemes
                            were until he saw them both in COLOR. Yes, there are differences, but
                            there are also striking similarities. Look at them in B&W, take away
                            the saparting stripes on the FJ&G unit, and about all that's
                            different is the termination of the stripes. I am not saying these
                            schemes are the SAME, I am saying they are strikingly similar purely
                            from a layout standpoint for a reason other than coincidence.


                            To say this similarity is because, well, there isn't that much you
                            can do differently, is to say that stripes must be the same width, at
                            the same angle, start and end at the same points, etc. Stripes can be
                            anywhere from 0-90 degrees, anywhere (within reason) from 1/2 inch to
                            several feet wide, they could be visible only in an end view, wrap
                            around the entire locomtive, or anywhere in between, etc. Just
                            because all those engines with the same width stripes at the same
                            angles (or radii as the case may be) starting and ending at the same
                            points are all different colors or some of them have a separating
                            stripe, does not make them the result of individual design, starting
                            from scratch, by or for each owner. Also keep in mind here that we
                            are talking only about 40s-era as-delivered schemes from the
                            builders, not later schemes or railroad-applied or modified versions
                            of the builder schemes. So while there are certainly plenty of
                            totally unrelated, individually designed schemes out there, the
                            schemes in question, as applied to 1st generation diesels by the
                            builders when new, are very often variations on standard designs.

                            I guess maybe we all just have differing ideas of what constitutes a
                            significant "difference" in a paint scheme.

                            Mark
                          • Dicarlo, Gino
                            I did a search on engine shop and that site is awesome!!! Check it out!!! It would be great to see some FJG engines on there! GINO ... From: paul larner
                            Message 13 of 18 , Apr 6, 2004
                              I did a search on "engine shop" and that site is awesome!!!
                              Check it out!!! It would be great to see some FJG engines
                              on there!

                              GINO

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: paul larner [mailto:pklarner@...]
                              Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 2:02 AM
                              To: FJGRailroad@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: RE: [FJGRailroad] Re: 44 Tonner Paint Job


                              To see a few (understatement) of the various paint schemes applied to many
                              of the diesel locomotive models offered by all the US builders and perhaps
                              some more (there are thousands) do a google search for "engine shop." The
                              first item that comes up on my search is a site titled Engine Shop
                              containing drawings with colors. 44 tonners, 70 tonners, E-6, E-8, F-7,
                              BL-2 they're all there, I haen't looked at ALCo yet. Must be an identical
                              scheme in there some where, you decide. Similar, how could they not be in
                              many ways. Alike, take a look; what can I say. LV and B&M are in there.

                              The url is usloki.tripod.com/ but that doesn't et you there; needs more.
                              The google search gets me there and it can be saved as a favorite.

                              PKL
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